187 replies to this topic

[rfarris]

How do you use Phenibut? I've had some for a while but haven't tried it yet.

The first day I took 500mg, second day 1g, third day 1.5g, fourth day 2g. I found that 2g was too much, 500mg wasn't enough. 1g worked ok, but I like the effects of 1.5g the best. Now I take 1.5g Tu, We, Th, and then stop until the next Tu.

Note that phenibut doesn't put me to sleep. I take it on an empty stomach in the middle of the afternoon. But that night when I lay down to sleep I go to sleep quickly and sleep like a rock with vivid dreams.

Without a sleep-aid I don't get to sleep for about an hour, and then sleep at best for 2-hour segments. One-hour at a time is more likely.

On a two-week cycle I take Lunesta Fr, Sat, Sun, Mon. I'm not all that happy with Lunesta because it takes a couple of days for it to begin working. Otherwise I would only take it on Sun and Mon.

On the off week on Sun and Mon I take Restoril (30mg), which *does* work great, but it has dependency issues, so I figure the safest regimen is to take it only two days every two weeks.

[Spiral Architect]

How long does it take it to start working and what's the half life? Any post usage effects for a one time use?

[Matt]

rfarris; Pretty much how I sleep these days. How did your start and how long you had sleep maintenance insomnia?

[rfarris]

Matt, I've had sleep problems for at least 15 years. I spent 10 years without sleeping; sleep apnea. If you explain what the term "sleep maintenance insomnia" I will try to address that issue.


Kane> How long does it take it to start working and what's the half life? Any post usage effects for a one time use?
This is a giant thread. There are dozens of drugs/supplements discussed on this thread. If you give us a little bit of context so that we know what your question is about we might be able to answer it.

[Matt]

Sleep maintenance insomnia is the inability to maintain sleep for prolonged periods of time. Where you wake up frequently during the night.

Edited by Matt, 01 February 2008 - 07:21 PM.

[triffidfood]

Sleep maintenance insomnia is the inability to maintain sleep for prolonged periods of time. Where you wake up frequently during the night.

ZMA (supplement containing Zinc & Magnesium Aspartates, plus small amounts of B6) works really well for this type of insomnia, in my experience.

It doesn't help me get to sleep, but once I finally do, I tend to stay asleep & sleep really soundly (I think the idea is that the combination of Zinc, Magnesium & B6 work together to promote deep, recuperative non-REM sleep ... perhaps by facilitating the production of Serotonin, although I may be wrong about that.)

Edited by triffidfood, 01 February 2008 - 08:51 PM.

[rfarris]

Sleep maintenance insomnia is the inability to maintain sleep for prolonged periods of time. Where you wake up frequently during the night.

I thought it was due to arthritis in the beginning. I would sleep an hour on one side, wake up in pain, get up, walk around, get back in bed and sleep on my other side for an hour, repeat. Maybe it was. But in the end it was sleep apnea that almost killed me. Now I sleep in an adjustable bed on my back with a C-PAP but I still wake up every hour without some kind of sleep helper.

Like I said, I like phenibut (and Restoril), but I'm willing to give triffidfood's suggestion -- ZMA.

[triffidfood]

Like I said, I like phenibut (and Restoril), but I'm willing to give triffidfood's suggestion -- ZMA.

If you do decide to try this, make sure to buy a brand that only contains the 3 main ingredients and nothing else (some brands even contain Calcium, somewhat bizarrely since this actually interferes with the absorption of the other 2 minerals, thereby kinda defeating the whole purpose of the supplement.)

I settled on Twinlab ZMA a while ago, which seems to work well.

[edward]

Sleep maintenance insomnia is the inability to maintain sleep for prolonged periods of time. Where you wake up frequently during the night.

I thought it was due to arthritis in the beginning. I would sleep an hour on one side, wake up in pain, get up, walk around, get back in bed and sleep on my other side for an hour, repeat. Maybe it was. But in the end it was sleep apnea that almost killed me. Now I sleep in an adjustable bed on my back with a C-PAP but I still wake up every hour without some kind of sleep helper.

Like I said, I like phenibut (and Restoril), but I'm willing to give triffidfood's suggestion -- ZMA.

rfarris,

Have you tried taurine? I have been playing around with it lately after I believe mike mentioned it. I was very skeptical as I have tried GABA, tryptophan, 5htp and other natural sleep aids that never really did much for me. I started with a dose of 3000 mg because that was what has been shown to overcome adrenaline/norepinephrine elevations (I read this somewhere I don't have a reference) regardless 3000 mg plus my normal sleep combo knocks me out and if allowed to sleep (on the weekend) I could sleep for 12 hours which is unbelievable. I have reduced the dosage down to 1000 mg and still have a hard time waking up after 8 hrs. I am going to try to cut back on my Ambien as of course I would rather take an amino acid (well its sort of amino) that my body actually needs than a drug.

[rfarris]

Like I said, I like phenibut (and Restoril), but I'm willing to give triffidfood's suggestion -- ZMA.

If you do decide to try this, make sure to buy a brand that only contains the 3 main ingredients and nothing else (some brands even contain Calcium, somewhat bizarrely since this actually interferes with the absorption of the other 2 minerals, thereby kinda defeating the whole purpose of the supplement.)

I settled on Twinlab ZMA a while ago, which seems to work well.

I just checked on iHerb, and both Now Foods and Twinlabs meet your requirements. Thanks for the pointer. Are you taking 3 capsules? Right before bed?

[triffidfood]

I just checked on iHerb, and both Now Foods and Twinlabs meet your requirements. Thanks for the pointer. Are you taking 3 capsules? Right before bed?

I usually take two (my Bodymass is quite low, since I'm tall but don't weigh too much), but yes I usually take them half an hour or so before bed.

It's important I think not to eat for an hour or so beforehand, or for half an hour after (which could be tricky I guess if you're taking a lot of supps?), since consuming anything else could interfere with the absorption process to some extent (the idea is, the Zinc & Magnesium work together synergistically ((sp?)), while the B6 promotes the further absorption of them both ... or umm, something like that anyway ).

Anyway like I said, taking ZMA doesn't usually help me get to sleep, but it makes it a whole lot easier to stay asleep, or even to get back to sleep again if you do wake up (plus, if you sleep for long enough, you tend to get really vivid dreams toward the end of the night, as your body balances out the ZMA induced- deep sleep with lots of REM).

Edited by triffidfood, 12 February 2008 - 03:49 PM.

[I call it maize]

I am new to the forum and decided to join after running across this thread on a google search. However, I certainly look forward to browsing the seemingly vast collection of information on the site.

I have had trouble for years sleeping. I have tried ambien, OTC sleep aids, night-time cold medicines and like...all with some level of temporary success. I am going to paste a blog of mine on here explaining what has helped me as of late:

If someone were to google "natural sleep remedies" it would produce a number of links to a myriad of philosophies and techniques. The most common and obvious solutions a person will find are: 1) Get on a sleep schedule 2) No caffeine after noon 3) Eat dinner 3-4 hours before bed, and 4) Exercise regularly, only to name a few. All these techiniques are certainly good habits to get into and could improve one's nightly slumber.

What I am going to outline are three things that have drastcially improved not only my ability to fall asleep but also the the quality and duration of my forty winks. :-) The first two are techniques much like the aforementioned tips:

1) Use bed for sleep and sex only. (the latter in a non-issue for me) Do not watch TV, read, etc. in bed. When I lie down I want my brain to send out the sleep signal.

2) Instead of ambient music I go with aromatherapy. I use passion flower or lavender incense.

The third is a natural cocktail consisting of a herbal extract, a common hormmone and two amino acids. The actual formula was derived by trial and error. All products can be easily purchased at a local health store or drugstore in many cases. All are readily available on the internet.

My Sleep formula:

500-1500mg Valerian Root Extract (herb) http://en.wikipedia....Valerian_(herb)

1.5-5mg Melatonin (hormone) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin

500-1000mg L-Trytophan (essential amino acid) http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tryptophan

3-5g Gamma-aminobutyric acid or "GABA" (amino acid) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABA

Directions: I take the cocktail about 30 minutes prior to bedtime on an empty stomach with ~6 ounces of graprfruit juice(increases the oral bioavailability of many substances). I started with the lower dosage of each substance to see how my body would respond.

DISCLAIMER:

The information presented is not intended for the treatment or prevention of

disease, nor as a substitute for medical treatment, nor as an alternative to

medical advice.

This publication is presented for information purposes only.

The Information contained herein reflects only the opinion of the author and is in

no way to be considered required practice. Specific medical advice should be

obtained from a licensed legal health practitioner. Consult your physician before

you begin any diet, exercise, or training program.

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug

Administration. The information contained herein is not intended to diagnose,

treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[naturopath100]

I'd like to know everyone's experiences with sleep enhancing substances. Sleep is so critical for health, in particular slow wave sleep is very important for hormone regulation, repair of tissues, memory consolidation (REM also important here), and arguably longevity etcetera, etcetera... The focus of this thread is Sleep Enhancers not Sleep Aids. Many things will get you to sleep but fewer things actually preserve or enhance natural sleep architecture.

Yes there is information about sleep enhancers scattered throughout this site and yes I could resurrect some old thread but there is no real "one stop shop" catch all thread that includes herbs, drugs, hormones and everything else that enhances sleep.

Personally, a good night sleep makes a dramatic difference in the way I function. It has always been a challenge for me to get a good night's sleep and thus daytime sleepiness has been a burden.

Things I have actually tried and my thoughts and selected info on them: ************************

Melantonin: Alright for enhancing sleep though by itself dosen't do the job (I have and will continue to take melantonin on a nightly basis because I am convinced of its health and longevity promoting properties)

Lunesta (Ezopiclone, USA), Imovane (Zopiclone, outside USA): Works very well, 5 hour half life which is perfect for sleep (I found no tolerance even after long term use) and in sleep studies it preserves natural sleep architecture. However it seemed to mess with my memory. http://www.biopsychi.../zopiclone.html

Valerian: Great for about two weeks then it stops working unless you escalate the dose.

GABA: Some benefit but not enough of it crosses the blood brain barrier to be effective IMO.

GHB (Xyrem by prescription): Ehh, ok for a little while, supposedly compresses total sleep time, enhances slow wave sleep but not a long term solution unless you have narcolepsy and nothing else works.

Trazodone (Desyrel): Antidepressant that is very good and effective for sleep (sleep architecture is reasonably preserved with some decrease in REM) but tends to leave one tired all morning and makes is very hard to wake up. Maybe with a shorter half life it would be good but not as is.

Diphenhydramine (Benedryl) and other Antihistimines: Well what can I say, they will make you sleep but definitely will not preserve or enhance sleep architecture. These are definitely sleep aids not sleep enhancers. Probably not a good idea in the long term, for health, longevity etc.

5htp/ Tryptophan: Not bad for getting to sleep but for those of us taking other serontonin enhancing drugs probably not a good idea. Also of note is the fact that serotonin is actually a daytime hormone and its only when it converts to melantonin that the sleep enhancing effects are apparent so in my opinion why not just take more melantonin rather than these.

Things I am interested in and considering: ************************

Gabapentin (Neurontin): Signifigantly enhances slow wave sleep, reduces stage 1 sleep dramatically (this is a good thing, Stage 1 is the barely falling asleep stage), and only shortens REM a little bit (maybe a good thing). There have been some posts on this site about this drug being very effective for sleep. Gabapentin was originally marked as an anti-seizure medication but like almost all of the anti-seizure meds it has been used as a mood stabilizer for bipolar depression. It was so flexible a substance that it became over marketed for off label use sadly tainting its reputation. But of all the anti-seizure meds it appears to have the best profile for a sleep enhancer. 6 hour half life which is pretty good for sleep. http://download.jour...45702002174.pdf

Ambien CR: Yes its a mainstream popular drug but it seems very positive. Enhances slow wave sleep, reduces stage 1 sleep dramatically and again also only shortens REM a little bit. Apparently has no side effects on memory unlike Zopiclone/Ezopiclone. The CR version extends the blood levels to closely mimic a sleep enhancer with a half life of 5 to 6 hours again ideal for a sleep enhancer. http://www.biopsychi...olpidemcomp.htm

Rozerem (Ramelteon): Very interesting, supposedly enhances the sensitivity of Melantonin receptors, perhaps if taken along with melantonin it might be excellent. I hate their commercials but that aside it looks very promising, I'd be curious to see the results from someone who has tried other sleep enhancers.

Things I am NOT interested in trying: ************************

Phenibut: From what I have read its a dead end unless you use it only a couple of times a week. Tolerance develops very fast and can lead to a very negative situation.

The Sleep Machine: This was mentioned in either food, diet and exercise or Nootropics. Basically its a machine that using magnetic fields sends one directly to slow wave sleep and supposedly one can sleep only 4 hours a night instead of 8. To me it sounds like the results are similar to GHB/Xyrem i.e. only worth considering if you have narcolepsy or if for some reason you need to function on reduced sleep for a period of time.

************************
Note: I take Ashwagandha and Bacopa at night as they tend to make me sleepy and Ash seems to help with recovery from exercise but I don't consider either effective sleep enhancers.

Hello,
I read with your interest on sleep and wanted to know what I found has worked for me..
About 6 years ago I started waking up in the mid morning about 3 am and was having trouble
falling asleep. I was taking a little bit of Klonopin ( 1/3 of .5 mg tab ) and my doctor prescribed
Ambien. It worked great for about 5 - 6 hours, but I would always still wake up about 4pm now..
So we devised a plan where I take a 1/4 of a tab at night, then when I wake up at 4, take
another 1/4. I find this has worked pretty well for several years... He thought sticking
with the regular Ambien would be better... I don't mind having to get up once.. it's better
than not being able to go back to sleep between 4 and 8am, which exhausts me if I do that...
Splitting a 5 mg tablet in half makes sure I get thru the night, and the Ambien really works...
Only thing is, I think I am habituated to it now...

Dan

[Mouser]

Update:

Currently taking Ambien CR 12.5 mg along with 3mg regular release melantonin and 3mg timed release melantonin (along with ashwagandha and bacopa)

Interestingly I am not getting the expected response from the Ambien CR. I expected it to be much like Lunesta / Immovane (ezopiclone / zopiclone) i.e. seven to nine hours of sleep, wake up feeling refreshed but not have the memory issues the Lun/Imm seemed to have.

Basically I sleep wonderfully for about 4-5 hours then wake up energized and refreshed but wondering as to why I didn't continue to sleep, I seem to function fine with no memory problems but I am a little hesitant about living on only 4-5 hours of sleep. Basically I am getting the same result from Ambien CR that I got from regular Ambien, which is very weird as it should last longer. Any thoughts?

This is the same experience I've had with Ambien CR - I've swithched back to regular Ambien. I also agree with Lunesta working better than Ambien. And I don't seem to remember any negative effect on memory.

A sleep study done recently revealed I have very fragmented sleep (150+ awakenings) with increased REM latency. Interestingly, the treatment that was recommended is Provigil, during the day of course. It sure is a different way of going after the problem that might be worth trying for some. My doc seemed to think so at least. Unfortunately for me though, Provigil has done nearly nothing positive at 300 mg. If I were taking part in a trial I would swear I was getting the sugar pill. So it's on to something else.

[wolfeye]

I've found Magnesium Orotate to improve my sleep. If I take it at bedtime it may disturb sleep but if I take it in the morning and afternoon it boosts sleep quality at night.

[browser]

Here I take:

Swanson Dual Release 3mg Melatonin (1.5mg immediate, 1.5mg over next 6-8 hrs)
Swanson Sleep Essentials (has Valerian, 3mg Melatonin, GABA, and more)
Swanson Bacopa 250mg

Swanson Ultra L-Trypophan 500mg (seldom)

Swanson Ashwagandha Extract 450mg - I usually take this later in the evening. Not right before bed.

As with Basho, stress will keep me awake even with this stuff. No matter what time I finally fall asleep or what I take, I'm awake at 6:45am. :-( Unless I pulled an all-nighter at work and have been up for 24+ hours... then I get that heavy feeling and never move. My wife can't even wake me up then.

Sorry, accidently replied to the wrong post. I don't see a delete button so I guess I'll just leave the reply where it is.

I've taken Rozerem for about 5 weeks now. I think it's a wonder drug but don't wonder why there are so many bad reviews for it on the Internet. My doctor told me to give the Rozerem time. At least two weeks. Well, I didn't have much of a choice. The Ambien CR I had been taking stopped working. The first night I took Rozerem I got gently sleepy within about 10 minutes, went to bed and slept for a while. And there is the problem. Rozerem tends to work like taking, say 60 mg. of melatonin. It lulls you to sleep then after a while you're awake again. The only good news in this is that the Rozerem offered just enough relaxation to not protest staying in bed waiting for sleep to return. During the first week I was up about a dozen times a night. By the time a month rolled around I was sleeping straight through the night. It is deep, restful sleep which feels like sleep without a sleeping pill used to feel. I gave up going to bed after taking my Rozerem after a couple of weeks. It took me longer and longer to get sleepy. Now I take it with the intention of going to bed and go to bed when I'm sleepy (which could be midnight and I take the Rozerem precisely at 10 PM each night). I've read all sorts of things about Rozerem not having been released in the right dosage (some people take 16 or 24 mg. instead of the 8 mg.). I suspect that these people are used to real sleeping pills and just aren't giving Rozerem a chance to work. I see myself taking Rozerem for another month before my sleep/wake cycle gets locked back in and I'll be going to sleep at my intended bedtime of 10 PM. Perhaps a few more months before I can just keep the Rozerem around for problem nights when sleep just doesn't come.

Edited by browser, 18 October 2008 - 11:44 PM.

[Mouser]

I'm planning to try Rozerem next. My problem is not sleep onset, but sleep consolidation; my overnight sleep test showed over 150 arousals (non-apnea, possibly due to hyponia). For me Restoril and Ambiem seem to work best so far. Magnesium and ZMA might actually make things worse. Melatonin helps with sleep onset, but I haven't noticed much effect with helping me stay asleep. I'd love to try Xyrem, but its so hard to get I don't think it'll be possible.

Its surprising how little research has been done for the purpose of determining how various substances affect sleep architecture and consolidation. There are many, many supplements and drugs that we know will help you get to sleep. But, if the question is what does this or that do in terms of slow wave sleep or REM for most things we're out of luck. It'd be nice if we could start collecting studies that are on this subject, the few there are.

[Barksdale]

Excellent thread:) I've decided to get Valerian Root and perhaps Taurine, but isn't Taurine a dangerouse amino acid? I've heard it damages you're brain or something.

I'm already using GABA and ZMA.

[bgwithadd]

I take 2g taurine, 2g glycine, 200mg theanine, 500mg ashwagandha every night. Ambien many nights, and phenibut, valerian, forskolin, and gotu kola occasionally. I tend to change them up depending on what's happening and how I feel and when I want to get up.

Inosotol and theanine have no downsides. Glycine is the only thing I can recall off the top of my head that is actually proven to enhance sleep per se, but both those will help you get to sleep without making you drowsy. So will taurine, for that matter.

valerian is sedating, so is gabapentin. They can hardly be called sleep enhancers. Phenibut is nonsedating, too, so there's no reason NOT to use it, just don't overuse it. Ambien and gabapentin are far worse for dependence.

Ambien is hardly sleep enhancing, either. After a few days of ambien I can tell I am getting a lot less quality sleep, like I feel super refreshed the first night, then after that I can see something is missing from the sleep I get and my mood suffers a bit over time. Anything that is sedating is ultimately not making sleep better, so don't delude yourself. That's pretty much every prescription sleeping aid in a nutshell so if that's your aim, don't bother with them.

Gotu kola is a little sedating to me, but not most people. I sleep very deeply on it but it makes me sick to my stomach later (valerian, too, sometimes). It's like valerian sort of, but much stronger. Of course I was taking a 900mg dose which is a lot more than most brands.

5htp will get you to sleep and improve quality, too.

Forskolin is great for relaxation and sleep and lots of other stuff, but it has effects I don't like when you take it too much so I keep its use limited.

[f00bar]

I know I'm answeting to some very old posts, but somebody might find it helpful nonetheless.

5-htp/tryptophan: Those are serotonin precursors whereas serotonine is a melatonin precursor. They don't have the sleepyness action during daytime because serotonin converion to melatonin depends on the light/darkness cycles.

lunesta/zopiclone: Those 2mg mentioned are a very low dose. 7.5mg seems what most ppl take. 3.75 may also work well. It worked for me but somewhat less effective than 7.5.
Ambien (zolpidem) is not necessarily better. Some people feel it is stronger but for me it didn't work as well. Another thing to consider is that zolpidem has a lower half life so it should be used when the main issue is falling asleep whereas zopiclone would be better if sleeping through the night is an/another issue. Keep in mind that continued intake of those meds becomes a habit maybe even physically addicting. But it's much less a problem with regular benzodiazepines.

Fortunately my terrible problems falling asleep have faded but I feel stress is getting worse again at the moment. I guess I'll give taurine and maybe bacopa/ashwagandha a try.
If I turn into an insomniac again I might even take phenibut but I dislike the idea of taking potent GABAergic drugs.

I like this thread. Imo sleep is really one of the most important health issues.

[GoodFellas]

What do you guys think about this one?

http://www.futurederm.com/2008/08/

"Spray it on your pillow, and it makes you relax and sleep"

[Bluejay1]

Ramelteon is a pretty awesome drug, it is even better for sleep than agomelatine. I've used both. The ramelteon is def stronger for sleep.

what about DELTA SLEEP INDUCING PEPTIDE ? Anyone here try it? There is another thread on this one, with link to a place that sells it. Can't vouch for it though.

Not much in the way for sleep until Almorexant IMO. Supplements are pretty lame as sleep is so hard-wired. Better off with a timed dimmable lamp.

[supernoober]

I'm surprised ZMA isn't mentioned. It is most definitely a sleep enhancer

[csrpj]

I'm surprised ZMA isn't mentioned. It is most definitely a sleep enhancer

i've been wondering, is ZMA superior to just taking magnesium?

also, if any suggestions are out there for supps which allow for sleep sleep, lay em out here! i know agomelatine (an novel antidepressant) does this.

[tlm884]

Is there anything you can take so you can lay down sleep for 8 hours and wake up feeling refreshed? I am so tired of waking up tired!

[Sillewater]

My grandmother has sleeping problems so what I did was mix up these things and it seems to work:

Magnesium Citrate 250mg
Taurine 1000mg
Glycine 3000mg
L-Arginine 1000mg
L-Lysine 1000mg
L-Theanine 300mg

She says she's never slept so well in years.

(I buy the stuff in bulk powder then mix into proper ratios, so she just takes a scoop of it per night).

It doesn't taste too bad, the lysine tastes kinda funky but I get her to mix it into some almond milk with some splenda. Tastes pretty good. The glycine is sweet too.

[tlm884]

My grandmother has sleeping problems so what I did was mix up these things and it seems to work:

Magnesium Citrate 250mg
Taurine 1000mg
Glycine 3000mg
L-Arginine 1000mg
L-Lysine 1000mg
L-Theanine 300mg

She says she's never slept so well in years.

(I buy the stuff in bulk powder then mix into proper ratios, so she just takes a scoop of it per night).

It doesn't taste too bad, the lysine tastes kinda funky but I get her to mix it into some almond milk with some splenda. Tastes pretty good. The glycine is sweet too.

Last night, I took Magnesium, Taurine, Valerian, and Melatonin and 12.5mg of Doxyalamine. Even before taking the doxyalamine I was getting drowsy. I am going to have to do some expirementation with your regimen. I also take 300mg of gabapentin nightly.

[Mind]

I could really use a sleep aid, but I am concerned about dependency and side-effects. I haven't read the entire thread, but I wonder what anecdotal evidence people could provide. Can you sleep without our sleep "medication"?

Sleep aids are similar to many other technological life enhancing therapies in the modern day in that they are great as long as you have access to them. As long as society doesn't collapse, it is somewhat rational to become dependent on them.

The best sleep aid I have known is exercise. Get enough exercise and you "pass out" and sleep for extended periods of time. The trouble is, most jobs nowadays involve sitting on your butt in front of a computer screen, not generating much exercise.

[supernoober]

Exercise and ZMA