90 replies to this topic

[rhc124]

Ok, I have mentioned this on another thread but I thought it should have its own. I have been on resveratrol for several months now. Currently I am taking 1.2 grams per day (RevGenics R300 two tabs in the morning, one lunch and one in the afternoon). Recently I have started having joint pain. Enough to start to concern me. The other day my left hip hurt so much that I could barely walk ( this lasted for about an hour.) I am a 41 year old male in good health. Anyone else experienced this? Thanks

[missminni]

Ok, I have mentioned this on another thread but I thought it should have its own. I have been on resveratrol for several months now. Currently I am taking 1.2 grams per day (RevGenics R300 two tabs in the morning, one lunch and one in the afternoon). Recently I have started having joint pain. Enough to start to concern me. The other day my left hip hurt so much that I could barely walk ( this lasted for about an hour.) I am a 41 year old male in good health. Anyone else experienced this? Thanks

I didn't see where you mentioned this before, but if I were you, unless there was something else different you took or did recently that could have
affected you, I would stop taking the R300 and see if the joint pain ceases. Also, the R300 are only 50% Resveratrol. Maybe something in the other 50% is not agreeing with you. IIRC the tests that were done used pure 100% Res, not 50%.
Nobody knows what that other 50% of the plant might affect. Maybe try the pure 99% Res instead.
Keep us posted.

[rhc124]

Ok, I have mentioned this on another thread but I thought it should have its own. I have been on resveratrol for several months now. Currently I am taking 1.2 grams per day (RevGenics R300 two tabs in the morning, one lunch and one in the afternoon). Recently I have started having joint pain. Enough to start to concern me. The other day my left hip hurt so much that I could barely walk ( this lasted for about an hour.) I am a 41 year old male in good health. Anyone else experienced this? Thanks

I didn't see where you mentioned this before, but if I were you, unless there was something else different you took or did recently that could have
affected you, I would stop taking the R300 and see if the joint pain ceases. Also, the R300 are only 50% Resveratrol. Maybe something in the other 50% is not agreeing with you. IIRC the tests that were done used pure 100% Res, not 50%.
Nobody knows what that other 50% of the plant might affect. Maybe try the pure 99% Res instead.
Keep us posted.

Thanks for the thoughts. Before I run out and start spending twice as much money for the same level of resveratrol I was hoping the someone here would have first hand knowledge or experience with this situation. If it was the 50% res then I sure someone here would have the same experiences. I am willing to bet that a majority of individuals that take res use the 50%. Maybe Anthony can tell us which is the biggest seller.

Anyway I really don't want to get off of topic here.

[quarter]

I experienced achilles tendon pain whilst supplementing with 500mgs daily of 50% resveratrol (Country Life brand). This pain dissipated and then disappeared when I stopped the res supplementation. I have no evidence other than the coincidence of these events that res was at fault. I have not resumed res supplementation and the achilles problems have not returned. Just adding my experience.

[maxwatt]

I experienced achilles tendon pain whilst supplementing with 500mgs daily of 50% resveratrol (Country Life brand). This pain dissipated and then disappeared when I stopped the res supplementation. I have no evidence other than the coincidence of these events that res was at fault. I have not resumed res supplementation and the achilles problems have not returned. Just adding my experience.

I had severe Achilles tendinitis about 10 years ago, while supplementing with acetyl-l-carnitine. The symptoms went away when I ceased taking it, and returned when I did. I was convinced it was the cause. After six months not supplementing, symptoms returned, and a physical therapist attributed it to running on hills with insufficient stretching. An Achilles tendon stretch, done consistently, relieved symptoms.

I've been supplementing with large amounts of resveratrol, and have no tendon problems, and I am physically active. I've been following the tendinitis-resveratrol link with some trepidation. First it was thought to be because resveratrol is an aromatase inhibitor. However there are very few papers in pub med that show up with the search terms "resveratrol" & "aromatase". Only two such papers linked resveratrol to anti-aromatase activity, and the in-vitro concentration they use to achieve the result was several orders of magnitude greater than serum levels obtained with resveratrol in vivo.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but other proposed mechanisms seem highly speculative to me. At most we are in unknown territory. If it is due to cox-2 inhibition then the same tendinitis symptoms could be obtained with ibuprufen (Advil.) As far as I know this doesn't happen.

Edited by maxwatt, 11 December 2007 - 04:16 AM.

[quarter]

Yeah I am not qualified to comment on any mechanism by which res could affect my tendons, and as a scientist (I study physics) I am often skeptical of reports where the medical profession links 'cause and effect' without identifying a mechanism of action. But as you can appreciate, from a personal standpoint my experience appears to be negative, just as the improvements with your big toe encouraged you to continue res supplementation, my achilles problems caused me to reconsider mine.

I am fully aware that my evidence is flimsy at best, but it would cost me more money (as a poor postgrad student I already over spend on supplements, especially with UK prices) and could possibly re-injure my tendons if I was to test the hypothesis further. Enzyme gives a plausible explanation in the "+ve,-ve, or 0 effect" thread, where he postulates the res could be increasing degeneration of tendon fibers in combination with overuse which sounds likely in my case as my tendons are under a lot of strain due to high impact sprint training in sprint spikes which have no heel (let alone heel support) (These are my spikes).

Having said that, I am continuing to keep an eye on resveratrol as maybe it was the 50% stuff at fault (if it was even the res at all, I admit the timing of the achilles problems could have been entirely coincidental but unrelated to the res) and I am still tempted by the endurance enhancing effects that the mice study showed.

[enzyme]

I've been supplementing with large amounts of resveratrol, and have no tendon problems ...

proposed mechanisms seem highly speculative to me... If it is due to cox-2 inhibition then the same tendinitis symptoms could be obtained with ibuprufen (Advil.) As far as I know this doesn't happen.

Ibuprofen is non-selective but inhibits cox-1 more than cox-2

I'm afraid that there is evidence that that non-selective cox inhibitors inhibit bone-tendon healing & fracture healing as well

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:34 PM.
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[kenj]

This really sucks! I had tendinitis following resv 99% -- never had problems with this in my 10+ years of sporting.
Planned to participate in a race, so I stopped resv, began taking several grams of MSM, and the pain faded the day after, and I could run safely. I'm off resv at the moment.

I read that tendon problems can show no signs of chemical inflammation, but high concentrations of glutamate: possibly there's a link here? (Don't) pass the cheese or MSG...

[luv2increase]

I bet it is the dosages of the resveratrol which you are taking. Has anyone ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the high dosages of resveratrol may cause problems in other areas of our physical well-being? It is similar to lithium carbonate. The prescribed dosages are very high, actually at sub-toxic levels, in order to get a therapeutic effect out of it. Maybe resveratrol is the same way 'for some'. You need a large dose to experience any positive effects but then comes along the negative ones as well. In your case, it is manifesting itself in the form of joint pain. Maybe it dries up the joints or screws with collagen synthesis? These are things to think about.

On the other hand it may be that you are just allergic to resveratrol, no matter what the dose may be...

[maxwatt]

This really sucks! I had tendinitis following resv 99% -- never had problems with this in my 10+ years of sporting.
Planned to participate in a race, so I stopped resv, began taking several grams of MSM, and the pain faded the day after, and I could run safely. I'm off resv at the moment.

I read that tendon problems can show no signs of chemical inflammation, but high concentrations of glutamate: possibly there's a link here? (Don't) pass the cheese or MSG...

In the resveratrol results poll, I suggested cycling resveratrol; none during high stress periods of training (increased milage for runners, or heaviest weights for lifters) but a day or two later, during recovery phase, use of resveratrol, as it seems to aid in the later remodeling phase of recovery -- at least in rats-- according to information enzyme posted.

[enzyme]

In the resveratrol results poll, I suggested cycling resveratrol ...

I had not thought of that. I will now though. The cycling you propose is too short, I suspect. However, you might be on to something there. This needs thinking though.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[enzyme]

In the resveratrol results poll, I suggested cycling resveratrol; none during high stress periods of training (increased milage for runners, or heaviest weights for lifters) but a day or two later, during recovery phase, use of resveratrol, as it seems to aid in the later remodeling phase of recovery -- at least in rats-- according to information enzyme posted.

The other thing is that the Rat paper - it suggested to me that resveratrol protects couch potatoes (de-stressed tendons) against the atrophy that follows inactivity (Use it or lose it - unless you take resveratrol). Add it to burgers?

I don't think resveratrol helps at all in the re-modelling phase of recovery. I think it messes it up.

Cycling - yes. You could drop/decrease Res altogether in periods of heavy training & reserve it for down time to stop all the benefits of exercise dribbling away when relatively immobile. Likewise it might benefit bedbound patients in hospital. Or cryosuspended space travellers en route to Alpha Centauri. Sorry. Slap. Actually, the more I think about this the more I think that Astronauts should take it. It might stop their bodies dissolving in zero-G, & the pickling effect of space radiation as well.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:37 PM.
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[luv2increase]

I'm taking 200mg t-res a day now. I am also exercising heavy 6 days a week. Should I not be taking it? Or is 200mg trivial to have any negative effects?

[krillin]

This really sucks! I had tendinitis following resv 99% -- never had problems with this in my 10+ years of sporting.
Planned to participate in a race, so I stopped resv, began taking several grams of MSM, and the pain faded the day after, and I could run safely. I'm off resv at the moment.

I read that tendon problems can show no signs of chemical inflammation, but high concentrations of glutamate: possibly there's a link here? (Don't) pass the cheese or MSG...

The fast recovery time is interesting. Maybe you're on to something with the glutamate theory. Here's another theory. Resveratrol is an SSRI, and a 5-HT3 receptor antagonist treats tendinitis.

Rheumatol Int. 2002 Nov;22(6):219-21.
Treatment of tendopathies with tropisetron.
Stratz T, Varga B, Müller W.
Hochrhein-Institut für Rehabilitationsforschung, Bergseestrasse 61, 79713 Bad Säckingen, Germany.

A comparison between a local anesthetic drug and the 5-hydroxytryptamine 3 (5-HT3) receptor antagonist tropisetron in treating tendopathies or periarthropathies revealed that tropisetron has a longer effect on resting pain and pain on movement than the local anesthetic drug. The most likely explanation for this effect probably is a blocking of stimulated 5-HT3 receptors at the nociceptors in conjunction with an inhibited release of substance P and other neurokines because of this blockage. Further studies will have to show whether the action of tropisetron in tendopathies is as favorable as that of corticosteroids.

PMID: 12426658

[luv2increase]

Here's another theory. Resveratrol is an SSRI, and a 5-HT3 receptor antagonist treats tendinitis.

Rheumatol Int. 2002 Nov;22(6):219-21.
Treatment of tendopathies with tropisetron.

Thus taking to much could obviously exasperate the antagonism of the 5-HT3 receptor. Maybe this is a U-curve response. Too much is not good.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:38 PM.
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[niner]

Here's another theory. Resveratrol is an SSRI, and a 5-HT3 receptor antagonist treats tendinitis.

Rheumatol Int. 2002 Nov;22(6):219-21.
Treatment of tendopathies with tropisetron.
PMID: 12426658

Resveratrol is a weak serotonin reuptake inhibitor, but not enough for psych effects (at least in my experience). It seems unlikely to me that resveratrol would result in enough peripheral 5HT to stimulate the 5HT3 receptor enough to cause tendon pain, if I have the hypothesis right. My impression of the above abstract is that the tendon injury is itself involved in stimulating the 5HT3 receptors, and the 5HT3 RA is interfering with the overall pain pathway. It's not clear that stimulating the receptor chemically would even cause the same response, if there were enough serotonin in the periphery to do it.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:39 PM.
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[dannov]

I bet it is the dosages of the resveratrol which you are taking. Has anyone ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the high dosages of resveratrol may cause problems in other areas of our physical well-being?

I take 4G a day of 98.7% grade purity (MaxWatt's), sometimes with 20mg of BioPerine, and feel great. Skin is healthy, I teem with energy and focus, gym workouts have been phenomenal (assuming I get good rest ), hair seems to be healthier (none falling out in shower really)--I feel great. No ailments whatsoever.

I can't attribute it all to the Resveratrol as I also take a number of other things (ie - heaping tablespoon of Certified Raw Organic Cacao Powder in both the morning and night with my protein shakes, 20g of Cow Colostrum protein from the first milking, etc.) along with a good diet and intense weight training regime in the gym, but I do note that if I take the Res before I go to bed I feel a good deal better the next day. I feel "alive" if you will. ^_^

I would definitely suggest that whatever is in the other 50% of that Res50 would be a cause for potential alarm. You won't know until you shell out the extra bucks to get a purer grade, though now may not be the best option for you given your financial circumstance.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 12:40 PM.
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[enzyme]

I'm taking 200mg t-res a day now. I am also exercising heavy 6 days a week. Should I not be taking it? Or is 200mg trivial to have any negative effects?

Good question. I will continue high dose res as the tendon chat is just interested speculation until someone does the science. The other potential benefits seem too good to miss out on.

Next time I get injured I will lay off it for a while perhaps.

[luv2increase]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

[niner]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

[kenj]

Been taking a gram of resv for a few days now with breakfast, and continue to run 30-40 mins in the mornings, - so far no tendon problems.

Speculating if glutamate is involved in the pain, it might be worthwhile investigating iron levels also.

[luv2increase]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

Are you serious? Do a search there niner.

Edited by luv2increase, 15 December 2007 - 06:34 PM.

[niner]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

Are you serious? Do a search there niner.

OK, I didn't want to open negatively, but I think that proteolytic enzymes aren't going to do anything. You're proposing it as a solution to "supposed" resveratrol induced joint pain; how about letting us in on your thinking? By what mechanism should they help? It's not really helpful to post treatment plans with no rationale or evidence.

[luv2increase]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

Are you serious? Do a search there niner.

OK, I didn't want to open negatively, but I think that proteolytic enzymes aren't going to do anything. You're proposing it as a solution to "supposed" resveratrol induced joint pain; how about letting us in on your thinking? By what mechanism should they help? It's not really helpful to post treatment plans with no rationale or evidence.

I'm sorry you can't figure that out. I'm sure you will find the rationale and evidence in due time.

[maxwatt]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

Are you serious? Do a search there niner.

OK, I didn't want to open negatively, but I think that proteolytic enzymes aren't going to do anything. You're proposing it as a solution to "supposed" resveratrol induced joint pain; how about letting us in on your thinking? By what mechanism should they help? It's not really helpful to post treatment plans with no rationale or evidence.

I'm sorry you can't figure that out. I'm sure you will find the rationale and evidence in due time.

At lease post a link to a study. Arguing from authority doesn't cut it here, more so as the only authority you cite is yourself.

[luv2increase]

Here is a link to some overall generally good information about proteolytic enzymes:
http://www.nutrition...proteolytic.php


For others, just go to google scholar. There is a study listed in the link above though. Basically, I believe proteolytic enzymes will work best if the cause of the joint pain from resveratrol is some sort of inflammatory response. I guess one, since they don't know what is going on really, could take a multi-faceted approach. That is of course if they even want to keep supplementing with resveratrol regardless of the joint problems. Attack it from every angle. Proteolytic enzymes are just another angle. I guess I shouldn't have said that it was a cure-all so to speak. But, who knows, it may be?

BTW, doctors are recommending proteolytic enzymes now for everything to do from arthritis to cancer.

[maxwatt]

Here is a link to some overall generally good information about proteolytic enzymes:
http://www.nutrition...proteolytic.php

For others, just go to google scholar.

The link you give is to a chiropractic wellness site, I didn't stay long enough to find out what they were selling. Google scholar turned up many articles that referenced proteolytic enzymes, but it is not immediately obvious which of the many forms or effects might be relevant here. Since resveratrol inhibits inflammatory response through nf-KAppaB inhibition, it may not be at all relevant here. On the other hand THIS POST indicates that if resveratrol is also a metalloproteinase inhibitor it could possibly cause inflammation by that route. Google scholar is all over the map with proteolytic enzymes; if you cannot explain exactly what you meant by your reference, I wonder if you really had something specific in mind.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 01:03 PM.
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[rhc124]

Refferencing a chiropractic wellness site is not going to get you aculades on this site. Nor will speaking from self induced authority. Anyway, I am already taking proteolytic enzymes so I don't think that is the direction we need to look. Now lets move onto more conrete answers. Thanks

[luv2increase]

Refferencing a chiropractic wellness site is not going to get you aculades on this site. Nor will speaking from self induced authority. Anyway, I am already taking proteolytic enzymes so I don't think that is the direction we need to look. Now lets move onto more conrete answers. Thanks

You two are very ignorant. If you would read the page, it references to what you are looking for. Think of it like this. I give link, you click link, you read and find what you are looking for. Studies are studies regardless of what type of web site it is that references to it. Open your eyes.

Have either of you ever heard of integrative medicine? Well, I suspect that you haven't. Chiropractic care is part of it. Do you realize that over half the supplements we talk about on here are part of integrative medicine.

If you talked to a chiropractor about the discussions we have here on the supplement forums, they would be much more understanding and all for it rather than a M.D. whom solely, for the most part, believe in prescription medication. Despite this, you still bash it. That is pitiful.

When it comes to reaching our goal, immortality, we need all the help we can get through every modality of medicine available to us.

Edited by shepard, 18 December 2007 - 09:44 PM.
Took out reported comment.

[maxwatt]

I'm thinking that a good proteolytic enzyme supplement may be the solution to supposed resveratrol induced joint pain...

How would proteolytic enzymes help?

Are you serious? Do a search there niner.

You're posts have been less than helpful, making assertions and challenging anyone who questions them (out of puzzlement?) to research what you mean. So far I've gathered from the references on your chiropractic site, and references in pub med that some proteolytic enzymes are useful for inflammation, others perhaps for combating cancer. Yet I cannot fathom what you were trying to tell us that was useful in your answers to niner or to me, by what mechanism putative resveratrol-caused joint pain might be helped by proteolytic enzymes. Rather than continuing to waste my time, I'd prefer you simply explain yourself.

As for needing help in our quest for immortality (or at least very long life) from every modality, including chiropractic, I have to chuckle. Why don't we ask astrologers and alchemists for their help too? Chiropractors may be good for some things, but far too many of them make claims far beyond their area of expertise.

Edited by Michael, 18 July 2009 - 01:04 PM.
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