89 replies to this topic

[FunkOdyssey]

People that consume Natto get 2000 - 8000 FU of nattokinase in a typical serving (50 - 200 grams natto). It is a staple food in Japan, usually eaten for breakfast, so there are millions of people eating doses of nattokinase daily comparable to what we might supplement with

The study I posted above showed a reduction in blood pressure with nattokinase supplementation. This case report suggests that orally administered nattokinase is an effective fibrinolytic, with all of the danger that implies:

Intern Med. 2008;47(5):467-9. Epub 2008 Mar 3.
Cerebellar hemorrhage provoked by combined use of nattokinase and aspirin in a patient with cerebral microbleeds.
Chang YY, Liu JS, Lai SL, Wu HS, Lan MY.

Department of Neurology, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital-Kaohsiung Medical Center, Chang Gung University College of Medicine, Kaohsiung, Taiwan.

Nattokinase is used as a health-promoting medicine for preventing thrombosis due to its fibrinolytic activity. Cerebral microbleed is remnant of blood extravasations from the damaged vessels related to cerebral microangiopathies. We report a patient, having used aspirin for secondary stroke prevention, who had an acute cerebellar hemorrhage after taking nattokinase 400 mg daily for 7 consecutive days. In addition to the hemorrhagic lesion, multiple microbleeds were demonstrated on brain MR images. We suggest that nattokinase may increase risk of intracerebral hemorrhage in patients who have bleeding-prone cerebral microangiopathy and are receiving other antithrombotic agent at the same time.

PMID: 18310985

Clearly this was a high risk patient, who combined the highest recommended dose of nattokinase (8000 FU) with aspirin therapy. This is also the only published report of such an occurrence that I can find. Taken together with the ubiquitous presence of nattokinase in the Japanese diet, I interpret this to mean that nattokinase does have real fibrinolytic activity, but is not normally dangerous at sensible doses in low-risk individuals who are not on concurrent antithrombotic medication.

lufega: I haven't decided how I will use these enzymes yet. Nattokinase seems to have more evidence of fibrinolytic activity so I am interested in incorporating that somehow (I keep seeing notes from the lab technicians on my blood test results about fibrin strands being present). Right now I'm taking doctor's best serrapeptase 40,000u 2-3x daily on an empty stomach with tetracycline.

I'm also looking into bromelain because it has been noted to synergize with antibiotics as well and might replace the function of one of these two expensive bacteria-derived enzymes for less money. I might even take all three.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 March 2009 - 04:47 AM.

[edward]

I came to my conclusion of natto and serra being too risky for long term use after I took stock of all the "blood thinning" things and potentially blood thinning supplements/herbs I take putting me in a very different category than the average Japanese person eating Natto or even the average supplement user or participant in a research study. I'd say I and many people on here have coagulation times closer to the patient on warfarin, aspirin and heparin concurrently than to a normal person.

[StrangeAeons]

I seem to recall a certain thread a while back in the Lifestyle section where you guys were talking about having fun with home glucose monitoring. Maybe you should get an INR monitor and do the same
Granted, they are far less widespread and therefore more expensive.
Anyways, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate that taking nattokinase as an extract is probably more efficacious than consuming natto. I'll further go out way over into "wild-ass guess land" and say that perhaps there's ingredients in natto which inactivate or ameliorate the effects of nattokinase. Vitamin K, which I had a hankering suspicion played a role here, appears to be one such possibility.
It is, of course, difficult to quantify how much of a risk something actually is based purely on theory. Still, I'm going to make a judgment call here and say that the only people that stand to gain from nattokinase are the ones who should be on blood thinning medications instead. One possible consideration is that a clinician might try using nattokinase carefully as an adjunctive to aspirin to titrate the INR to a desirable range for an at-risk patient before resorting to warfarin, which has the nasty side effect of arterial calcification.

[rwac]

lufega: I haven't decided how I will use these enzymes yet. Nattokinase seems to have more evidence of fibrinolytic activity so I am interested in incorporating that somehow (I keep seeing notes from the lab technicians on my blood test results about fibrin strands being present). Right now I'm taking doctor's best serrapeptase 40,000u 2-3x daily on an empty stomach with tetracycline.

Funk, What tests are these ?

[FunkOdyssey]

Nattokinase may be useful for alzheimer's as well (possible candidate for SENS extracellular junk removal?):

J Agric Food Chem. 2009 Jan 28;57(2):503-8.
Amyloid-degrading ability of nattokinase from Bacillus subtilis natto.
Hsu RL, Lee KT, Wang JH, Lee LY, Chen RP.

Institute of Biological Chemistry, Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan.

More than 20 unrelated proteins can form amyloid fibrils in vivo which are related to various diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, prion disease, and systematic amyloidosis. Amyloid fibrils are an ordered protein aggregate with a lamellar cross-beta structure. Enhancing amyloid clearance is one of the targets of the therapy of these amyloid-related diseases. Although there is debate on whether the toxicity is due to amyloids or their precursors, research on the degradation of amyloids may help prevent or alleviate these diseases. In this study, we explored the amyloid-degrading ability of nattokinase, a fibrinolytic subtilisin-like serine protease, and determined the optimal conditions for amyloid hydrolysis. This ability is shared by proteinase K and subtilisin Carlsberg, but not by trypsin or plasmin.

PMID: 19117402

I don't think otherwise healthy people should be experimenting with these enzymes. I have a few reasons to: 1) recent autopsy of Lyme patient killed by cardiac event reveals a bunch of spirochetes and fibrin clogging up the heart 2) lab techs are complaining about fibrin strands present in my specimens 2) bromelain and serrapeptase have been shown to increase absorption of amoxicillin, tetracycline, and one of the cephalosporins, to increase tissue distribution of the same, to potentiate killing action of antibiotics, break up biofilm, and bromelain increases natural killer cell activity.

rwac: I didn't have a test specifically done for that, I am just getting my bi-weekly CBC w/ kidney, liver, pancreatic markers, and in the "Comments" area, the lab technician sometimes warns that counts may be off because of the interference of fibrin strands and large platelets.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 March 2009 - 03:14 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

I remembered this incorrectly, I guess the patient didn't die. Now, Lyme Disease causes all kinds of heart trouble, from palpitations to arrhythmia to myocardial infarction, but I think this is the first time in the published literature that a heart biopsy has been taken from a Lyme patient and looked at under a microscope:

Int J Cardiol. 2009 Jan 23. [Epub ahead of print]
Borrelia-like organism in heart capillaries of patient with Lyme-disease seen by electron microscopy.
Lalosevic D, Lalosevic V, Stojsic-Milosavljevic A, Stojsic D.

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Histology and Embryology, St. Hadjuk Veljkova 3, 21000 Novi Sad, Serbia; Clinical Center of Vojvodina, Novi Sad, Serbia.

A case of a patient who developed an acute myocarditis due to Lyme disease is reported. An increased serum antibody titer to Borrelia burgdorferi suggested a diagnosis and in addition of basic clinical methods, endomyocardial biopsy performed and analyzed by transmission electron microscopy. The lumen of myocardial capillaries was founded mostly filled with detritus and fibrin precipitate, between them several bacterial fragments were identified. The electron-microscopic characteristics of the microorganisms in this specimen, revealing irregularly coiled appearance and consistent thickness of 0.2 mum, correspond to the spiral-like structure of Lyme disease borrelia. The presence of fibrin deposits on the capillary endothelium and necrosis of myocardiocytes, suggests that the cardiopathy in our patient was represent borrelia-mediated damage of the heart microcirculation.

PMID: 19168240

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 March 2009 - 03:38 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Promising information from the new amyloid degrading study whose abstract is posted above:

Natto, a fermented food made from boiled soybeans, has been eaten for more than 1000 years in Asia. The fermentation microbe isolated from natto is the Gram-positive endospore-forming bacterium Bacillus subtilis natto (formerly designated Bacillus natto)(1). Nattokinase (formerly designated Subtilisin NAT) (2) is an extracellular enzyme secreted by B. subtilis natto (3) and belongs to the alkaline serine protease family, the catalytic center of which contains three conserved residues, Asp-32, His-64, and Ser-221 (4). It has a molecular mass of 27.7 kDa and an isoelectric point of 8.7 (5). Nattokinase is composed of 275 amino acids, and the gene sequence is homologous to those of other members of the subtilisin family (99.5% homology with subtilisin E, 86% with subtilisin BPN′, and 72% with subtilisin Carlsberg) (6). It not only degrades fibrin in thrombi (7) but also cleaves plasminogen activator inhibitor type I (7, 8). Nattokinase has greater thrombolytic activity than plasmin (5, 7, 9), a natural thrombolytic protease in blood, and increases the production of plasmin from plasminogen due to its action on plasminogen activator. These observations, together with the fact that it can be absorbed across the intestinal tract after oral administration (10, 11) and induce fibrinolysis (11), make nattokinase a potential clot-dissolving agent for the treatment of cardiovascular disease. Dietary supplementation with natto suppresses the intimal thickening of arteries and leads to the lysis of mural thrombi seen after endothelial injury (12). Other clinically thrombolytic agents, such as urokinase and streptokinase, are costly and unstable in the intestinal tract (13). The use of oral administration of nattokinase in fibrinolytic therapy for thrombosis and the prevention of atherosclerosis is therefore of interest. Nattokinase is currently used as a nutrient supplement to improve circulation in the body (3, 11, 12).

..........

This amyloid-degrading ability of nattokinase suggests that it may be useful in the treatment of amyloid-related diseases. The feather-degrading enzyme keratinase (Versazyme), produced by Bacillus licheniformis, can degrade preheated prion (25) and is useful for inactivating prion in meat and bone meal (26) and for decontaminating medical instruments (27), but cannot be taken orally. Many proteins and peptides, such as immunoglobin light chain, transthyretin, beta2-microglobulin, serum amyloid A protein, A-beta peptides, and insulin, can form amyloid deposits in the body (28). A-beta peptides can move from the brain into the blood with the aid of low density lipoprotein receptor-related protein and p-glycoprotein (29). In addition, prion disease can be transmitted through blood transfusion (30), suggesting the existence of prion in the blood. Amyloid fibrils are insoluble and not easily digested by proteases. The discovery of an enzyme which can be safely taken orally and can degrade amyloid fibrils could be very useful in the therapy of amyloid-related diseases. Nattokinase not only dissolved blood clots (9) but also degraded amyloid fibrils. Our amyloid-degrading studies demonstrated that it is active at neutral pH and body temperature. Previous results in rats, dogs, and humans have suggested that nattokinase can enter the circulation when taken orally (11, 12), so it has the potential to clear amyloid deposits in various parts of the body. Moreover, prion diseases can be transmitted by the use of contaminated surgical instruments. Nattokinase can tolerate a temperature of 50 °C and functions even better under basic conditions, such as pH 10, suggesting that it might be useful in instrument decontamination.[/quote]

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[FunkOdyssey]

My preliminary plan for the combined use of systemic enzymes looks like this:

1 hr pre-breakfast: 300mg bromelain (600 GDU from 2000 GDU/gram bromelain), 40000u serrapeptase, antibiotics
1 hr pre-lunch: 300mg bromelain, 2000 FU nattokinase
1 hr pre-dinner: 300mg bromelain, 40000u serrapeptase, antibiotics
1 hr pre-bed: 300mg bromelain, 2000 FU nattokinase

Each of these enzymes does some unique things that the others cannot duplicate, or at least do not have published research indicating they can. To account for possible fibrinolytic synergy, doses of each enzyme are roughly half of the highest commonly recommended/used dose.

Interestingly, this regimen duplicates a specialty enzyme product called Neprinol which costs $144 for a month supply (my cost is about $30).

[FunkOdyssey]

Serrapeptase augmenting antibiotic therapy:

Jpn J Antibiot. 1986 Mar;39(3):761-71.
[Augmentation by serrapeptase of tissue permeation by cefotiam]
[Article in Japanese]

Koyama A, Mori J, Tokuda H, Waku M, Anno H, Katayama T, Murakami K, Komatsu H, Hirata M, Arai T, et al.

Cefotiam (CTM) is a new cephalosporin with a broad spectrum of activity against both Gram-positive and Gram-negative microorganisms. Cephalosporins are widely used for prophylaxis of infections in patients undergoing thoracotomy. Augmentation by serrapeptase on tissue permeation of CTM was examined in 35 thoracotomy patients with lung cancer. The subjects were divided into two groups according to the method of the administration of CTM. Group I consisted of 17 subjects, each of whom received a single dose of 2 g of CTM alone by an instillation for 30 minutes. Group II consisted of 18 subjects, each of whom received a combination of CTM and serrapeptase; serrapeptase was given 2 tablets (10 mg) each time for three times/day until the day before surgery, and then CTM was administered by the same procedure. The following results were obtained: Individual difference was observed for the permeation of CTM into tissues. Pathologic differences also affected the permeation. Nevertheless, the CTM levels in pulmonary tissues reached about a half of those in the blood in both the single dose group and the combination group, hence sufficient concentrations exceeding MIC80 for main microorganisms that caused infections in the lung were obtained. The concentrations of CTM in inflammatory tissues have showed lower levels than those of normal tissues in both CTM single dose and the combination groups. Decrease of blood flow volume may have contributed to the reduction in levels of CTM in the inflammatory tissues. The ratio of the concentration of the drug in pulmonary tissues to that in the blood was 29.1 +/- 2.5% in the single dose group, and 44.2 +/- 6.0% in the combination group, the latter showing quite a significant increase (P less than 0.05). Combined administrations of CTM and serrapeptase deserves more trials in the case when surgical treatments of the lung are performed. An antiinflammatory effect of serrapeptase in the respiratory system is expected, and in addition, the combined use of CTM and serrapeptase should stimulate permeation of the antibiotic into tissues.

PMID: 3525882

Jpn J Antibiot. 1980 May;33(5):623-35.
[Studies on the distributions of antibiotics in the oral tissues: Experimental staphylococcal infection in rats, and effect of serratiopeptidase on the distributions of antibiotics (author's transl)]
[Article in Japanese]

Aratani H, Tateishi H, Negita S.

1) A focal infection was prepared by inoculation of staphylococci into rat gingiva. Then, concentrations in oral tissues (gingiva, tongue and masseter), serum and liver of the infected rats which were given ciclacillin, ampicillin, cephalexin and minocycline in a dose of 100 mg/kg p.o. were investigated and effects of serratiopeptidase (20 mg/kg) on these concentrations were studied. 2) Concentrations of ciclacillin in the oral tissues were approximately 10% of a serum level. A gingival concentration was elevated 8.5-fold by pretreatment with serratiopeptidase. A concentration in infected gingiva was 2.5-fold of that of another side of gingiva. 3) Concentrations of ampicillin in the oral tissues were approximately 15% of a serum level. A gingival concentration was elevated 5.7-fold by pretreatment with serratiopeptidase. A concentration in infected gingiva ws 2.2-fold of that of another side of gingiva. 4) Concentrations of cephalexin in the oral tissues were approximately 3 to 5-fold of a serum level except that in masseter. A gingival concentration was slightly elevated (1.1-fold) by pretreatment with serratiopeptidase. A concentration in infected gingiva was 1.7-fold of that of another side of gingiva. 5) Concentrations of minocycline in the oral tissues were 1.3 to 7.2-fold of a serum level. A gingival concentration was elevated 2.2-fold by pretreatment with serratipeptidase. A concentration in infected gingiva was 3.1-fold of that of another side of gingiva. 6) Gingival concentrations of antibiotics were higher than those of tongue and masseter and serratiopeptidase elevated gingival concentrations.

PMID: 7001087

Jpn J Antibiot. 1977 Mar;30(3):223-7.
[Effects of a proteolytic-enzyme preparation used concomitantly with an antibiotic in osteoarticular infections (author's transl)]
[Article in Japanese]

Okumura H, Watanabe R, Kotoura Y, Nakane Y, Tangiku O.

Studies were performed in 8 patients with osteoarticular infections to examine the concentrations of sulbenicillin in the venous blood and exudate following administration and the concentrations of the antibiotic in the exudate when serratiopeptidase was orally administered concomitantly with the antibiotic. The results of the examination indicated that the transfer of sulbenicillin into the exudate tended to increase when 30 mg/day of serratiopeptidase was concomitantly given for 6 days, though further examination was thought necessary by increasing number of subjects and elaborating on the methodology.

PMID: 853579

There are many more studies like this for bromelain as well but they are generally in foreign languages and the abstracts are not available.

[VespeneGas]

very interesting Funk! I've started taking bromelain as an alternative to NSAIDs for back/prostatic pain, and it seems to have good efficacy so far. Any rationale on taking it an hour before the meal? I've just been taking it with the meal (since it's a proteolytic enzyme) but I could be doing it wrong

Best of luck in your struggle against Lime. I follow it with avid interest.

[FunkOdyssey]

very interesting Funk! I've started taking bromelain as an alternative to NSAIDs for back/prostatic pain, and it seems to have good efficacy so far. Any rationale on taking it an hour before the meal? I've just been taking it with the meal (since it's a proteolytic enzyme) but I could be doing it wrong

Best of luck in your struggle against Lime. I follow it with avid interest.

Thanks, I'm seeing a new and more aggressive doctor tomorrow so we'll see what happens, should have a bunch of new medication.

I take them on an empty stomach because they are degraded / digested to some degree in the stomach, so if you want to absorb the enzymes systemically, you want them to spend as little time in the stomach as possible. If you take bromelain with a meal, it will help digest the protein in your meal but you will not absorb as much afterward. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any data indicating precisely how much of a given dose is lost on an empty stomach vs. taken with food, but if you want to ensure maximum bioavailability then empty stomach is the way to go.

[rwac]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any data indicating precisely how much of a given dose is lost on an empty stomach vs. taken with food, but if you want to ensure maximum bioavailability then empty stomach is the way to go.

Would you say the same for Antibiotics ? Best on an empty stomach ?
Because my doc said I should take it with food to not be as harsh on my stomach.

[FunkOdyssey]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any data indicating precisely how much of a given dose is lost on an empty stomach vs. taken with food, but if you want to ensure maximum bioavailability then empty stomach is the way to go.

Would you say the same for Antibiotics ? Best on an empty stomach ?
Because my doc said I should take it with food to not be as harsh on my stomach.

Each antibiotic is different. With tetracycline-class antibiotics, they should be taken on an empty stomach. Some antibiotics are equally bioavailable with or without food, and some are better absorbed with food. You need to do your research with each one. Try drugs.com, search your medication, and select the "Professional" version of the information for your drug.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 06 March 2009 - 05:35 AM.

[rwac]

Each antibiotic is different. With tetracycline-class antibiotics, they should be taken on an empty stomach. Some antibiotics are equally bioavailable with or without food, and some are better absorbed with food. You need to do your research with each one. Try drugs.com, search your medication, and select the "Professional" version of the information for your drug.

Yeah, it's doxycycline.

Absorption may be decreased by 20% when given with food or milk.

So far, my doc seems to know what he's doing, but I should do my own research as well.

[Happy Gringo]

I read on the directions of one of the nattokinase supplements that it shouldn't be taken with vitamin K. So my plan is to take the nattokinase on Saturday and Sunday each week, then take my K/K2(600 micrograms each) and Vitamin D (15,000 IU) on Monday. As I think the K2 (MK-7) only sticks around about 4-5 days, it seems to me that it shouldn't interfere. Does this seem reasonable?

[pycnogenol]

I'm considering taking serrapeptase. Is Enzymedica (www.enzymedica.com) the best company?

[FunkOdyssey]

I read on the directions of one of the nattokinase supplements that it shouldn't be taken with vitamin K. So my plan is to take the nattokinase on Saturday and Sunday each week, then take my K/K2(600 micrograms each) and Vitamin D (15,000 IU) on Monday. As I think the K2 (MK-7) only sticks around about 4-5 days, it seems to me that it shouldn't interfere. Does this seem reasonable?

I do not agree that it should not be taken with Vitamin K. I take 1000mcg K1, 1000mcg MK-4, and 100mcg MK-7 daily along with the enzymes. Vitamin K does not have a blood thickening effect, it simply activates certain K dependent proteins that are supposed to be activated, and then excess vitamin K has no further effect on clotting. Vitamin K2 (in the form of MK-7) and nattokinase are present together in Natto and we know that Natto is a very healthful food and has a net blood-thinning effect.

Its true that your blood will have difficulty clotting if you are K deficient, but excess K will not make your blood thicker or clot more than normal.

I use doctor's best for serrapeptase from iherb, its cheap and enteric coated.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 06 March 2009 - 04:53 PM.

[Happy Gringo]

Thanks, Funk,
I will follow your advice. I am also going to add bromelain before bed to combat muscle soreness, as I lift weights 6 days per week and sometimes have problems sleeping due to pain. I am already taking 8 grams of fish oil per day, so this seems like the next best option. Don't mean to get off-topic, but bromelain should be a member of the family that we are discussing, right?

[gattaca]

Thanks, Funk,
I will follow your advice. I am also going to add bromelain before bed to combat muscle soreness, as I lift weights 6 days per week and sometimes have problems sleeping due to pain.

Have you considered the possibility that you are overtraining

[pycnogenol]

Does anyone know if taking Serrapeptase can cause the "Herxheimer" reaction?

If so, is this reaction typical? What is the duration of discomfort?

[the Herxheimer Reaction, is characterized by a temporary increase in discomfort during the process of a detoxification cleanse.
It occurs when toxins and wastes are being released faster than the body can eliminate them.]

Edited by pycnogenol, 21 March 2009 - 04:11 PM.

[VespeneGas]

Thanks, Funk,
I will follow your advice. I am also going to add bromelain before bed to combat muscle soreness, as I lift weights 6 days per week and sometimes have problems sleeping due to pain.

Have you considered the possibility that you are overtraining

I agree completely. Unless you're on a host of anabolic steroids, 6 days per week is at least 2 days too many for recovery and growth to take place.

Interesting, pycnogenol, you're herxing after a dose of serrapeptase? I would not have expected that. Do you have a known pathogen on board, or do you suspect a heretofore sneaky one (you should ask funk about lyme disease )

[FunkOdyssey]

Does anyone know if taking Serrapeptase can cause the "Herxheimer" reaction?

If so, is this reaction typical? What is the duration of discomfort?

[the Herxheimer Reaction, is characterized by a temporary increase in discomfort during the process of a detoxification cleanse.
It occurs when toxins and wastes are being released faster than the body can eliminate them.]

That is kind of a BS, alternative medicine description of a herxheimer reaction (terms like "detoxification cleanse" do not belong). What is really happening is the death of large numbers of microorganisms produces a ton of antigenic debris -- essentially, little pieces of them are now floating around. These antigenic proteins and lipopolysaccharides are now more visible and accessible to the immune system. Your immune cells encounter this flood of antigenic garbage and release inflammatory cytokines to ramp up an immune response, phagocytes come to "clean up", B-cells produce antibodies to the antigens that were found, etc. The inflammatory cytokines make you feel like crap, you may feel fatigued, sore, brain foggy, and whatever other symptoms you had will be aggravated beyond the usual baseline.

That's why you can obtain more accurate testing on the western blot with an "antibiotic challenge", because killing off bacteria that are normally very adept at evading the immune system encourages the production of antibodies.

[100YearsToGo]

I know that medically you have to go through a very selective protocol to be a candidate for fibrinolysis, and this applies to very specific events: acute myocardial infarction, thrombotic stroke, and pulmonary thrombotic embolism. Outside of that they are considered fairly dangerous; some pretty nasty stuff can happen if your prothrombin time shoots up too high. Even at sub-acute doses I imagine a healthy individual could turn themselves into a bit of a hemophiliac; then you get bruised all the time and might have to go through a leukemia scare. Not fun.
I'm not aware of how fibrionlytics interfere with Vitamin K, and many people here are jumping aboard the K2 train (myself recently included); I have a hard time imagining that there's no interaction, but that is pure speculation. I would think if you start early enough with the K2 + D3 + mixed A combo, you really shouldn't have to go messing with these enzymes to protect your vascular system; and to elaborate on what edward said, Omega 3 is probably the most used supplement here and overall, and it has anticoagulant properties.

I agree with this. If you are young stay with D3, K2 and perhaps A. If you are above 45. You could try to clear your cardio system with nattokinase, but make sure to start first on K2. That should strengthen blood vessels and make you less prone to blood vessel leakage. K2 does not interfere with nattokinase action. Nato cheese (bah!) contains vitamin K2 naturally.

[pycnogenol]

That is kind of a BS, alternative medicine description of a herxheimer reaction (terms like "detoxification cleanse" do not belong).

Hi Funk,

I appreciate your input.

Just to be clear, the herxheimer quote in my post was from a serrapeptase website that I copied and pasted and not from me.

I'm only trying to learn more about serrapeptase and that is why I asked the questions I did.

Edited by pycnogenol, 21 March 2009 - 10:45 PM.

[Lufega]

That's why you can obtain more accurate testing on the western blot with an "antibiotic challenge", because killing off bacteria that are normally very adept at evading the immune system encourages the production of antibodies.

Thanks for this info. I'll be sending my blood sample to Igenex soon. What antibiotic and at what dose (just one time?) will maximize this effect??

[rwac]

That's why you can obtain more accurate testing on the western blot with an "antibiotic challenge", because killing off bacteria that are normally very adept at evading the immune system encourages the production of antibodies.

Thanks for this info. I'll be sending my blood sample to Igenex soon. What antibiotic and at what dose (just one time?) will maximize this effect??

My doc told me to take 2x100mg doxycycline for 3 weeks before my re-test.
Funk suggested that 4 weeks or so (was it 4-6 weeks) might actually be better, but I think I'm gonna go with my doc.

I felt I wasn't herxing enough, so I added bromelain, serrapeptase and 1.5 mg LDN to my regimen to get a stronger herx.

[Lufega]

I started an anti-bug regimen. It consists of most of the same supps seen here plus a few others. I will introduce them one at a time to observe better all effects if any. It consists of:

serratopeptase
nattokinase
bromelain
olive leaf
andrographis
venus fly trap extract
oregano oil
cleavers
ginger
cayenne
graviola
chanca piedra
una de gato

I started with 5 drops una de gato TOA free, felt a bad headache and malaise shortly after. I later added 1 bromelain and serratopeptase and the feeling became a little more pronounced. I followed this with 1 olive leaf extract, 500 mg and did not notice any further ill effect. Oregano oil makes me feel bad only at high doses (10 drops or more). Ginger and cayenne seem pretty neutral at low doses. Will experiment with higher ones later on.

[jessicantique]

''Serratopeptase
nattokinase
bromelain
olive leaf
andrographis
venus fly trap extract
oregano oil
cleavers
ginger
cayenne
graviola
chanca piedra
una de gato''

for these supplements, mosly i take them by breaking the capsules and pour them in my mouth, (except when they are enteric coated that i am not able to break them) i assume that way they lost efficacy?

[pycnogenol]

So does taking serrapeptase initially increase pain? If it does indeed do this, what is the typical duration length of additional pain discomfort? Does it also mean the body is trying to heal itself?

[zorba990]

So does taking serrapeptase initially increase pain? If it does indeed do this, what is the typical duration length of additional pain discomfort? Does it also mean the body is trying to heal itself?

Just to add to this thread, I recently suffered a bad calf strain. It was quite swollen.
I'm taking lots of extras but when I added Doctor's Best Serrapeptase the swelling went down
very very quickly. I'm not going to be taking it long term but I thought I would share that.