16 replies to this topic

[Stokestack]

In a couple of side-effect threads I noted the discussion of emodin and it being a quinone. Cipro and other quinolones are known to destroy tendons and were recently slapped with a long-overdue FDA black-box warning about this side effect.

This brings us around to the complaints of tendonitis in regard to resveratrol usage, and the presence of emodin in the 50% formulations. So I wonder how quinones and quinolones are related; it appears that they are, based on the abstracts that turn up with a search. But I'm not conversant enough in chemistry to determine their kinship.

[Lufega]

That sounds like a fresh take on an old problem. I hope we can resolve this. I want to start resveratrol but I'm afraid of the joint/tendons problem. I already have problems with these and wouldn't want to aggravate it.

[Stokestack]

I wouldn't experiment with this. This crap has set me back YEARS, with a burning foot and Achilles tendon; and every movement is a cacophony of snapping and popping. I'm dismayed at these results after having carefully avoided Cipro and its relatives, after seeing first-hand the severe harm they can cause.

Instead of feeling invigorated and getting back to an exercise regimen, I can't even stand to stand. Running anymore? Fat chance.

In 1989, as a senior in college, I had arthroscopic knee surgery. Afterward, many of my joints started popping and snapping. I mentioned it to my doctor, who scoffed at the idea of any connection. But I just realized that I was most likely given antibiotics after surgery, and Cipro was introduced in the late '80s.

20 years later, my hip is still popping. And now I have another boatload of snapping and popping with the added bonus of hobbling tendon and foot pain. This took years to subside the first time. Now at age 40, what are the chances of it ever resolving, and how many years of activity will I lose in the meantime? I stopped the resveratrol pills a good month ago and most of these symptoms remain, at least as strong as ever.

DON'T DO IT.

Edited by Stokestack, 17 September 2008 - 07:11 PM.

[Stokestack]

I did another quick search on anthraquinone (emodin) and quinolones. Here's a bit from http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1192833

"Quinolones such as nalidixic acid..."

"The residue of anthraquinone carboxylic acid, e.g. a structurally similar aromatic acid..."

I feel nauseated. This is terrible.

[zorba990]

That sounds like a fresh take on an old problem. I hope we can resolve this. I want to start resveratrol but I'm afraid of the joint/tendons problem. I already have problems with these and wouldn't want to aggravate it.

In the interest of the discussion at hand, can you state if you were taking
50% TRes or was it pure 98% or higher TRes.

I've not had these issues at 1000mg/day 99% TRes but I've been holding off recommending it
to my 70yr old mother until the joint issues are further clarified.

[Matt]

ahhh the word quinolone, run for your life while you can stil, er, run.... lol. 12 months later and the redness has only just faded on my left achilles tendon, both achilles tendons screwed up. Bayer U Wank"*%!

Anything similar to quinolones having the same tendon destroying effect, I'm not sure about that to be honest. I don't think so. But hey, don't take my word on it

Edited by Matt, 18 September 2008 - 01:54 AM.

[niner]

I did another quick search on anthraquinone (emodin) and quinolones. Here's a bit from http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1192833

"Quinolones such as nalidixic acid..."

"The residue of anthraquinone carboxylic acid, e.g. a structurally similar aromatic acid..."

I feel nauseated. This is terrible.

Stokestack, sorry to hear about your case, but thanks for putting in on the record, such as it is. I read the paper you cited, and compared the structures of emodin and some quinolones. As to whether or not emodin causes the same sort of tendon problems as the quinolone antibiotics, it's conceivable. The molecules are different, but they have some similarities. If the mechanisms for tendon problems are the same, then you might take some comfort that over time, the quinolone reactions seem to subside. If your case follows a quinolone pattern, you could be in for a couple years of trouble, from what I've heard. Most of the resveratrol associated joint issues seem to be resolving faster than that, though; quite a bit faster. The quinolone side effect is quite rare, considering the large numbers of people who take them. I've had multiple courses of quinolones, including a month-long IV infusion. I asked my doctor about quinolone tendonopathies, and he was of the opinion that they were more likely in people with a tendency toward autoimmune arthritis, FWIW. I hope that you're feeling better sooner rather than later. Good Luck.

[hmm]

ahhh the word quinolone, run for your life while you can stil, er, run.... lol. 12 months later and the redness has only just faded on my left achilles tendon, both achilles tendons screwed up. Bayer U Wank"*%!

Anything similar to quinolones having the same tendon destroying effect, I'm not sure about that to be honest. I don't think so. But hey, don't take my word on it

Matt, sorry, I can't tell how much of your post is just kidding and how mcuh is serious -- I am curious to know if you actually have had some tendon problems and if so, what you think caused them...

[Stokestack]

"In the interest of the discussion at hand, can you state if you were taking 50% TRes or was it pure 98% or higher TRes."

It was the Biotivia Bioforte 500, which apparently is 50%.

And thanks for the info, folks.

Edited by Stokestack, 18 September 2008 - 11:11 PM.

[zawy]

I saw two people who reported tennis elbow while taking 99%, so it's going to require careful study before it can be concluded that the 99% is fault free.

In the OTHERS that have reported tendon/ligament problems, I would not discount the increased energy and mood that can lead to activity that can cause the tendon/ligament problems. I have been taking about 1 g/d of 50% revgenetics for 9 months and have not noticed any problems, as is the case with most others. But this is not to say that the tendon/ligament issue should not be carefully and fully investigated. If i were revgenetics, i would keep a public record of customer reviews that included a question about if they have noticed any negative side effects (but not a leading question towards anything in particular). I would email customers 2 months after the purchase to request feedback with a link to the simply feedback form. I could write the Perl program for revgenetics if Anthony wants. I would edit/delete only feedback that tries to drive customers to other sellers, but that never occurs when the price is reasonable. The purchase process needs a notice that let's them know feedback will be requested. The reviews should be as easy to find as the price, given TOP placement. This normally increases first-customer sales by 30%

Speaking of a bad feeling in the stomach, imagine FDA getting involved. They stopped the selling of a depression-lowering amino acid and a cholesterol-lowering moldy rice for more than a decade. An amino acid and slightly-moldy rice! Healthy, normal, older than insects, FOODS! Banned using public funds despite public outcry, with no evidence of harm and good evidence of benefit.

Edited by zawy, 19 September 2008 - 01:02 PM.

[kismet]

The quinolone side effect is quite rare, considering the large numbers of people who take them. I've had multiple courses of quinolones, including a month-long IV infusion. I asked my doctor about quinolone tendonopathies, and he was of the opinion that they were more likely in people with a tendency toward autoimmune arthritis, FWIW. I hope that you're feeling better sooner rather than later. Good Luck.

Who cares how rare they are, debilitating they are, it's irresponsible that it took them so long to issue a black box warning and that this stuff is sometimes used as first line antibiotic when others are available (I guess it's because of the good oral bio-availability). A doctor told me most of the tendon problems are related to concomitant use of prednisolone.
Every board I visit has at least one thread on quinolone side effects..

hmm, I think Matt has had quite some serious tendon problems and side effects, there's even one whole thread devoted to it.

Edited by kismet, 19 September 2008 - 01:10 PM.

[Stokestack]

My problems are not the result of increased activity, and that's for sure. The amount of audible snapping and popping every time I move is outrageous, and body-wide. This is not something that's imaginary or subjective.

One more alarming effect I've noticed: small muscle spasms, mostly in the calf with the afflicted Achilles, but elsewhere also. I'm seeing a doctor next week.

[Matt]

The quinolone side effect is quite rare, considering the large numbers of people who take them. I've had multiple courses of quinolones, including a month-long IV infusion. I asked my doctor about quinolone tendonopathies, and he was of the opinion that they were more likely in people with a tendency toward autoimmune arthritis, FWIW. I hope that you're feeling better sooner rather than later. Good Luck.

I guess the problem is that tendon problems can come on upto 12 months after the quinolone is taken. One person I talked to called 'taylor' had taken levaquin about 5, 6,7 or times or something, the very last time he took it within 11 months he ended up having 5 tendons surgically re attached. nice hu? And this guy was a strong big guy, not tiny tendons like myself. But still I don't claim that they are common or rare, I'd say that we just don't know because patients are unlikely to report such symptoms after a period of months have gone by without any problems. I recommend people take a look at these comments though ; http://latimesblogs....-joins-the.html

Matt, sorry, I can't tell how much of your post is just kidding and how mcuh is serious -- I am curious to know if you actually have had some tendon problems and if so, what you think caused them...

I happen to be almost 1 year out now actually, and i've had tendon trouble both achilles tendons, both shoulders, both wrists. I'm absolutely serious. I wrote something to the CR society the other day to update them on my progress. I'm happy to say that my tendons are finally getting better again, but it's probably going to take at least 2 years to fully repair since the cell alterations is the problem, not chronic inflammation. Here is what I wrote, and it is my history


12 years of football almost every day for a few hours. In the school summer
summer holidays I'd be over the park from 10am to 9pm playing football on
and off and just going home to eat, then going back out. Karate for a year,
Judo for 2 years, Boxing for 1 year, played Roller hockey + Ice Hockey for 5
years, Skateboarding 3 for years, Mountain biking since I was a kid. I also
played baseball, basket ball and other things on and off. Done a lot of
walking too. I got into weight lifting, and running then just before CR and
lasted up until 2006 when I backed off a bit because I needed to keep my
weight stable... and I forget yoga for 2 years.


Lets just say that I've been 'SUPER FIT' since I was very young. I have
never had a tendon injury or irritation in my 23 years prior to taking the
Cipro. And just look at what I did above! But it took cipro no more than a
few hours to destroy my tendons... lovely.


As I said the tendon troubles started within 'hours' of taking cipro

Sorry for hijacking the thread!

Edited by Matt, 21 September 2008 - 11:38 PM.

[Stokestack]

I recommend people take a look at these comments though ; http://latimesblogs....-joins-the.html

That is horrific: The primary symptoms people report in those comments are EXACTLY what I'm experiencing. I don't want to believe this, but there's no way around it.

[edvelez.g]

That is horrific: The primary symptoms people report in those comments are EXACTLY what I'm experiencing. I don't want to believe this, but there's no way around it.

It's a life-changing drug. I remember coworkers used to comment on me going down the stairs faster than the elevator. "Damn your fast they would say". Jumping several stairs down without problems. Now, after taking that drug, I am in pain after walking a couple of blocks to get lunch. I always take the elevator, and I prefer to open the door using the button for disabled people. I regret every milligram of this poison, I wish I could go back. Nothing has really helped me that much

[Michael]

Whatever the possible effects of emodin, they wouldn't explain the fact that while most reports of resveratrol-associated joint pain come from people who either used 50% extracts or never specified what exactly they were using, there are several reports of joint pain in people using 98% pure resveratrol (also here, and see here ([Edit: this was a link to a report in someone using Vital Prime, which I seem to've dropped and can't now find again]: this brand didn't match label claim when Anthony had it tested, but was still 87% resveratrol -- not much room for emodin)), apparently here, and possibly here. You can also troll through the disturbing number of independent reports of joint pain.

These are anecdotal, of course, and could be coincidental, but they aren't the standard headaches-and-upset-tummies stuff, and there seem to be an awful lot of them. Even if you aren't getting this pain, if it's real, the unknown mechanism leaves open the question of unknown other, more subtle or long-term effects in humans.

[2tender]

Never had any emodin related sides with any revgen. Emodin Res products should be avoided. The main problem is GI tract irritation. Resveratrol itself can cause minor tendon flare ups, but they subside in time for most people that experience them. JMO

Edited by 2tender, 21 June 2012 - 03:01 AM.