34 replies to this topic

[Chaos Theory]

Is there any way to counter Wellbutrin's anticholinergic effects? These effects of wellbutrin are implicated in the brain fog and diminished memory side effects of the drug, are they not?

Would nicotine, huperzine A, or galantamine be effective?

[bgwithadd]

Nicotine + wellbutrin seems to be very effective combo. Most people will do better cognitively on wellbutrin, though, not worse.

[yowza]

Nicotine + wellbutrin seems to be very effective combo. Most people will do better cognitively on wellbutrin, though, not worse.

I'm not convinced that it is.

The best way to avoid Wellbutrin's anticholinergic effects is to maybe try another stimulating medication that doesn't have these effects. There aren't too many options.

[Chaos Theory]

Nicotine + wellbutrin seems to be very effective combo. Most people will do better cognitively on wellbutrin, though, not worse.

Overall I would say my cognitive effects from Wellbutrin are a net positive. There are just some minor side effects I think may be related to the medication. I can never remember what day it is anymore, it seems like they all blend together. I also feel a bit dull at times, but my caffeine intake has also dropped considerably since starting the Wellbutrin so that may have something to do with it.

[tlm884]

Is there any way to counter Wellbutrin's anticholinergic effects? These effects of wellbutrin are implicated in the brain fog and diminished memory side effects of the drug, are they not?

Would nicotine, huperzine A, or galantamine be effective?

Centrophenoxine may help

[juanjo_asdf]

nicotine + wellbutrin

aint that funny how wellbutrin is prescribed for people wanting to stop smoking, yet nicotine and wellbutrin might make up a good combo

just funny

wellbutrin works cognintion wise but there is something missing there, I agree

[tlm884]

nicotine + wellbutrin

aint that funny how wellbutrin is prescribed for people wanting to stop smoking, yet nicotine and wellbutrin might make up a good combo

just funny

wellbutrin works cognintion wise but there is something missing there, I agree

I was on Wellbutrin for about a year and then I started smoking. Smoking made me unbelivable sick but because I was already on Wellbutrin I thought thats how smoking was suppose to be so I just stuck with it. Then I quit Wellbutrin and smoking got more pleasureable.

Nicotine and Wellbutrin might work but I wouldn't reccomend it.

[yowza]

A cholinergic like Huperzine A (I wouldn't use Aricept) and Ritalin could work together. However, Ritalin isn't a very desirable drug to be taking unfortunately. Not sure if Ritalin is anticholinergic but for some reason it's effects could be enhanced thru cholinergic modulation.

[Johann]

Ahhhhhhhh what a pissa!  I didn't know that Wellbutrin was anticholinergic.  

I started taking 75 mg a day two days ago and yesterday I studied for 6 hours straight.  It gave

me all the focus that I was hoping that Aniracetam and Galantamine would have given me.  I don't know what to do now as I can't stand the thought of taking anything anticholinergic.  

Yes I take a choline supplement.  Any suggestions?  

Is taking the Galantamine useful or a waste while taking wellbutrin?  

[nito]

What the closest thing to supplements like ritalin, modafanil and stuff that you would class as herbs. I mean anything that is not prescription?

[Johann]

What the closest thing to supplements like ritalin, modafanil and stuff that you would class as herbs. I mean anything that is not prescription?

Ephedrine is the only thing that comes close.  It was banned for a while but I think it is back on the market over-the-counter.   

[Imagination]

What the closest thing to supplements like ritalin, modafanil and stuff that you would class as herbs. I mean anything that is not prescription?

I would say L-tyrosine, amino acid to increase dopamine and noradrenaline, I have not tried the above mentioned though.

How is wellbutrin anticholinergic by the way?

[alexd]

Try Barcopa

I bought it from Swansons and found the cheaper Barcopa leaf capsules to work better for me than the extract which was ok. It helps memory takes about 4 weeks to be fully effective although I could tell the difference with one. After a month I stopped taking it and it became apparent that it improved my memory.

[acantelopepope]

Wellbutrin is not anticholinergic. Through a nebulous mechanism it increases the level of dopamine you have. Dopamine and acetylcholine have an antagonistic/mediating relationship, therefore it is plausible in some people's cases that by increasing the amount of dopamine you have, you will lose some acetylcholine. This is an oversimplification, but I think it answers your question.

One solution would be to take something like Centrophenoxine or DMAE, and a good choline source. Be very careful not to use too much though, because the acetylcholine/dopamine relationship is a double-edged sword: see my post on "acetylcholine and depression" in the Research forum.

[FunkOdyssey]

welbutrin is anticholinergic:

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1999 Jan;288(1):88-92.
Noncompetitive functional inhibition at diverse, human nicotinic acetylcholine receptor subtypes by bupropion, phencyclidine, and ibogaine.
Fryer JD, Lukas RJ.

Division of Neurobiology, Barrow Neurological Institute, Phoenix, Arizona, USA.

Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR) are diverse members of the neurotransmitter-gated ion channel superfamily and play critical roles in chemical signaling throughout the nervous system. The present study establishes the acute functional effects of bupropion, phencyclidine, and ibogaine on two human nAChR subtypes. Function of muscle-type nAChR (alpha1 beta gamma delta) in TE671/RD cells or of ganglionic nAChR (alpha3 beta4 alpha5+/-beta2) in SH-SY5Y neuroblastoma cells was measured with 86Rb+ efflux assays. Functional blockade of human muscle-type and ganglionic nAChR is produced by each of the drugs in the low to intermediate micromolar range. Functional blockade is insurmountable by increasing agonist concentrations in TE671/RD and SH-SY5Y cells for each of these drugs, suggesting noncompetitive inhibition of nAChR function. Based on these findings, we hypothesize that nAChR are targets of diverse substances of abuse and agents used in antiaddiction/smoking cessation strategies. We also hypothesize that nAChR play heretofore underappreciated roles in depression and as targets for clinically useful antidepressants.

PMID: 9862757

[Johann]

Wellbutrin is not anticholinergic. Through a nebulous mechanism it increases the level of dopamine you have. Dopamine and acetylcholine have an antagonistic/mediating relationship, therefore it is plausible in some people's cases that by increasing the amount of dopamine you have, you will lose some acetylcholine. This is an oversimplification, but I think it answers your question.

One solution would be to take something like Centrophenoxine or DMAE, and a good choline source. Be very careful not to use too much though, because the acetylcholine/dopamine relationship is a double-edged sword: see my post on "acetylcholine and depression" in the Research forum.

Glad to see someone here knows what they are talking about.  One quick question.  I read somewhere that DA antagonizes one of the nicotinic receptors.  What exactly does that mean in terms of ACh production and what about the Galantamine I take?  How will they interact?

[Johann]

welbutrin is anticholinergic:

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1999 Jan;288(1):88-92.
Noncompetitive functional inhibition at diverse, human nicotinic acetylcholine receptor subtypes by bupropion, phencyclidine, and ibogaine.
Fryer JD, Lukas RJ.

Division of Neurobiology, Barrow Neurological Institute, Phoenix, Arizona, USA.

Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR) are diverse members of the neurotransmitter-gated ion channel superfamily and play critical roles in chemical signaling throughout the nervous system. The present study establishes the acute functional effects of bupropion, phencyclidine, and ibogaine on two human nAChR subtypes. Function of muscle-type nAChR (alpha1 beta gamma delta) in TE671/RD cells or of ganglionic nAChR (alpha3 beta4 alpha5+/-beta2) in SH-SY5Y neuroblastoma cells was measured with 86Rb+ efflux assays. Functional blockade of human muscle-type and ganglionic nAChR is produced by each of the drugs in the low to intermediate micromolar range. Functional blockade is insurmountable by increasing agonist concentrations in TE671/RD and SH-SY5Y cells for each of these drugs, suggesting noncompetitive inhibition of nAChR function. Based on these findings, we hypothesize that nAChR are targets of diverse substances of abuse and agents used in antiaddiction/smoking cessation strategies. We also hypothesize that nAChR play heretofore underappreciated roles in depression and as targets for clinically useful antidepressants.

PMID: 9862757

Okay, what does that mean in terms of focus, concentration?  I am more focused w/  the wellbutrin in my stack.  Will that last?  Long term problems?  

[FunkOdyssey]

It doesn't mean anything for focus and concentration, these are certainly enhanced by bupropion. It does have negative implications for memory, word recall -- the kind of things that nootropics are thought to improve. Not everyone notices any impairment, some do and some do not.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 30 September 2009 - 07:24 PM.

[Johann]

It doesn't mean anything for focus and concentration, these are certainly enhanced by bupropion. It does have negative implications for memory, word recall -- the kind of things that nootropics are thought to improve. Not everyone notices any impairment, some do and some do not.

Would an MAOI like Deprenyl ultimately impair memory/recall as I have noticed in Wellbutrin.  I mean, I can focus and study for hours on it, but like you said, the recall isn't there.  Its not like I'm very foggy but not as clear as when doing Ani/choline/Galantamine sans Wellbutrin.  





So is it DA in general or the pathway of this one particular drug?

[Imagination]

Im curious to try wellbutrin, is it something you should only take if you need it with ADD or something, or is it something non addictive anybody can use and easily put down?

[FunkOdyssey]

It doesn't mean anything for focus and concentration, these are certainly enhanced by bupropion. It does have negative implications for memory, word recall -- the kind of things that nootropics are thought to improve. Not everyone notices any impairment, some do and some do not.

Would an MAOI like Deprenyl ultimately impair memory/recall as I have noticed in Wellbutrin.  I mean, I can focus and study for hours on it, but like you said, the recall isn't there.  Its not like I'm very foggy but not as clear as when doing Ani/choline/Galantamine sans Wellbutrin.  

So is it DA in general or the pathway of this one particular drug?

It is this one particular drug which antagonizes nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Deprenyl does not share this activity.

[DairyProducts]

It doesn't mean anything for focus and concentration, these are certainly enhanced by bupropion. It does have negative implications for memory, word recall -- the kind of things that nootropics are thought to improve. Not everyone notices any impairment, some do and some do not.

My personal experiences with it are greatly enhanced memory, both long term and short term. Anyone else have this odd reaction to it?

[Guacamolium]

What the closest thing to supplements like ritalin, modafanil and stuff that you would class as herbs. I mean anything that is not prescription?

Sida Cordifolia, Ma Huang, or Qat (which is illegal)

[haha]

The anti cholingeric activity is mediated through moderate inhibtion of sigma-1 agonism, wellburtin has sigma-2 agonist activity which mediates its positive benefits

[FocusPocus]

Has any welbutrin users here noticed an improvement in their memory in the long term?

Im wary of using it due to lots of anecdotes about memory loss on Welbutrin! despite claims that it is only a transient memory loss after which memory will actually improve due to Nach receptor upregulation.

[Blake Thacker]

Has any welbutrin users here noticed an improvement in their memory in the long term?

Im wary of using it due to lots of anecdotes about memory loss on Welbutrin! despite claims that it is only a transient memory loss after which memory will actually improve due to Nach receptor upregulation.

Do you have access to said claims of improved memory and Nach upregulation?

[Blake Thacker]

Has any welbutrin users here noticed an improvement in their memory in the long term?

Im wary of using it due to lots of anecdotes about memory loss on Welbutrin! despite claims that it is only a transient memory loss after which memory will actually improve due to Nach receptor upregulation.

Found it, nevermind.

I think it's a common misconception on here that the nAChR antagonism of memantine and bupropion are dangerous and "anticholinergic"
I believe it's actually pro cholinergic long run via homeostasis (hormesis) but I haven't cared enough to find literature supporting this.
Edit: it does. Bupropion and memantine are both pro cholinergic. They act as an example of horemesis by being nicotinic acetylcholine receptor antagonists. Your brain will take a few weeks to adjust and upregulate nAChR, increasing their density.
I think it's all the anxiety bupropion can induce for the people online who say it ruined them cognitively.

[rian]

I'll check in there to find more evidence for Bupropion being anticholinergic or not? Is there anything new to add to the discussion, perhaps? How do the "not anticholinergic" guys explain the constipation many people experience under bupropion?

 

Thanks.

[CWF1986]

Arguably, the nicotinic acetylcholine antagonism at specific nAChRs is a major part of the antidepressant effect of wellbutrin.  If you're taking it for depression, it very well might reduce the antidepressant effect of wellbutrin.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19497387

 

https://www.hindawi....wj/2012/104105/

 

I've read more studies on the subject, but that's what I found in just few minutes.  The first study is specifically about bupropion and the second is about possible antidepressant effects of nAChR antagonists and agonists in general.

[rian]

Arguably, the nicotinic acetylcholine antagonism at specific nAChRs is a major part of the antidepressant effect of wellbutrin.  If you're taking it for depression, it very well might reduce the antidepressant effect of wellbutrin.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19497387

 

https://www.hindawi....wj/2012/104105/

 

I've read more studies on the subject, but that's what I found in just few minutes.  The first study is specifically about bupropion and the second is about possible antidepressant effects of nAChR antagonists and agonists in general.

 

Much thanks!

 

So by having an anti-nicotinic property it means bupropion is anticholingeric, right? I am not that much in the topic to understand much from the links :l

 

Why do so many sources claim the opposite. Like here: http://psychopharmac...hopharmacology/

 

 

Would love to have some insight from you, as you seem to be very knowledgeable