35 replies to this topic

[nameless]

I've been considering trying astaxanthin at a moderate dose (2-4mg), to see if it helps with joint pain at all. I've also read it may have some immune modulation effects, which would be a benefit for me.

I'm curious if anyone had tried it (especially lyme people) and noticed any benefit. There are also claims that it can lower c-reactive protein, perhaps increase HDL, etc., but I don't know how reliable those studies are.

Also interested if there are any potential risks or negatives to using it. I'm not aware of any studies showing a longterm health risk, but it's one of those things that isn't really duplicated from diet by any populations longterm -- salmon eaters would be the closest, but they'd have to eat tons of it.

[Blue]

Not many human studies.
http://healthlibrary...iid=160132#ref4

Regarding toxicity, there are likely fishing populations that have eaten a lot of salmon, so I do not think long-term use has any really obvious harmful effects.

Have you looked at other supplements for arthritis?
http://healthlibrary...;chunkiid=21505

[nameless]

Thanks for that link.

I've considered some of the other supplements listed. Tried glucosamine, but no noticeable benefit, but admittedly I probably didn't take it long enough.

The amounts of Astaxanthin in salmon is greater than I expected. 2-4 servings of regular salmon, or one serving of Pacific would be in the ballpark of the dosage I am considering. And although that is a lot of salmon to eat daily, you are right that there probably has been some fishing populations who regularly ate salmon. So the risk hopefully would be small or nonexistent.

One other reason I am considering it is I am due for bloodwork next month. I'm curious if it'll reduce c-reactive protein at all. Although 4 weeks or so may not be enough time to notice much of a difference.

[ensun]

2mg is a very low dose. Most human studies use 4-16mg. In rats, they dosed up to 30mg/kg (2100mg for a 70kg human), with tremendous improvement in endurance at this dose. I understand Astaxanthin is strong, but I just don't see why you would take only 2mg unless it is a monetary issue.

Yes, according to some sources, some wild salmon contain as much as 4mg. So there is an epidemilogical basis for taking higher doses. Astaxanthin is really great stuff.

Edited by ensun, 18 October 2009 - 02:02 AM.

[nameless]

It isn't a monetary issue, as thankfully astaxanthin isn't overly expensive.

It's a scaredy-cat issue. I usually dose somewhat conservatively for most things, and even supplements that are assumed safe, I sometimes worry about.

As for forms of astaxanthin, I expect the natural algae-form is considered best, right? Any particular source better than another? I don't want to mention brand names, as I don't want this thread to be moved to the vendor area and get hidden away. But if there is a particular ingredient source better than another, I'd be interested. I am currently considering a Zanthin sourced astaxanthin.

[ensun]

I'm using BioAstin. It is natural astaxanthin mixed in safflower oil, with a little vitamin A, E and lutein for better bioavailability. I believe this is a good brand. I don't know if I can mention merchants, but you could take 10mg/day of BioAstin for only $9.00/mo. Not bad.

A few studies have showed improved benefits when taken up to 16-20mg/day. After that, I believe there are diminishing returns.

As far as safety, you can read a few studies here: http://www.astaxanth...humansafety.htm In another study I can't find, 100mg daily of synthetic (inferior) astaxanthin was administered to volunteers for a month or two with no ill effects.

Zanthin looks good. It is sourced from the same microalgae as BioAstin.

I would take it with mixed tocotrienols. They work synergistically. And of course it will take several months to see improvement. Good luck.

Edited by ensun, 18 October 2009 - 10:41 PM.

[ensun]

The above EPNet link seems biased. The fertility study was significant in that those who were infertile and supplemented with 16mg astaxanthin combined with standard medical treatment experienced a completely normal rate of fertility, yet EPNet describes this result as "at least marginal." It also rehashes the same old "antioxidants have unproven benefits and could be dangerous" Vitamin E (read: d and dl-alpha tocopherol only) & beta carotene (high doses in many cases) study that was massively flawed. It then cites a study which has been one of the few studies showing little outcome with astaxanthin supplementation. And it goes on to say that the studies which have showed statistically significant improvement with astaxanthin only provide "weak evidence." I guess if by weak evidence you mean not very many studies, sure.

Here is a model for improving theumatoid arthritis in dogs and cats that I found interesting: http://www.reeis.usd...ges/182965.html

Edited by ensun, 19 October 2009 - 12:32 AM.

[VampIyer]

I've been experimenting with Astaxanthin (BioAstin, Nutrex' 6mg version on iherb):

36-40mg per day for a week: I thought I felt some difference, but the trial was too short-lived. I thought I recovered from physical stress more quickly, but I'm really not sure. It's also worth mentioning that the product is marketed to promote recovery from exercise - possible placebo influence.

18-24mg per day, sustained: I've been doing this for a while. I don't know that it really helps. There is no obvious effect.

I do have joint issues (probably caused by other health issues), and I didn't notice any improvement, however I am also young (24).

Perhaps I'll drop the astaxanthin for at least a few weeks after I'm done with my supply.

Edited by VampIyer, 19 October 2009 - 04:31 AM.

[dear mrclock]

i saw two providers of astaxanthin; AstaReal and Zanthin which most supplements use as their source. i was thinking anyone has idea which is better quality and, do you know what process it is used to extract the astaxanthin from the algae ? if its some strong solven, something poisonous like hexane, it will not be cool to take it prolonged use.

[niner]

i saw two providers of astaxanthin; AstaReal and Zanthin which most supplements use as their source. i was thinking anyone has idea which is better quality and, do you know what process it is used to extract the astaxanthin from the algae ? if its some strong solven, something poisonous like hexane, it will not be cool to take it prolonged use.

Hexane isn't very toxic. It would take a much higher exposure than you'd get from a supplement to cause any problems. That said, I don't think that many supplements are extracted with hexane. Here's a patent for extraction of astaxanthin that uses steam and a small amount of vegetable oil.

[dear mrclock]

dunno about hexane not being very toxic. i see quite a lot of labels on products now stating hexane free, must be reason for it.

and what you pasted; Publication Dates Range: 16-Sep-1975 - 19-Dec-1978 Filing Dates Range: 16-Sep-1974 - 03-Jun-1975

thats the most recent explaination of extraction ? wow. :s

[Paularious]

I've been using astaxanthin for joint pain for about a year now. I noticed an improvement in my pain in less than two weeks after i started with about 16mg day for the first month or so and now take 8 mg/day

I'm pushing 50 and was having chronic hip, shoulder and elbow pain ( tendonitus?) from rock climbing and other fun things.

There is a lot of variation in the causes of pain and also the responses to different approaches which is why different approaches are needed before taking astaxanthin i was previously taking a stack of stuff for joints including the usual suspects (fish oil, Glucosamine Sulfate, MSM, etc....) which did not help. When i started taking astaxanthin i also switched from fish oil to krill oil.

[daouda]

Astaxanthin has 5 alpha reductase inhibitions properties, I wouldnt take it at very high doses for this reason alone (36-40mg is WAY too high). Could mess up with male libido, and maybe create a lasting condition in some? (see propeciahelp.com to see what 5AR inhibition can do in some males) Please dont beleive the sellers of proscar/procecia (finasteride) that managed to brainwash a lot of ppl including doctors into beleiving that DHT is an evil hormone that only swells your prostate and makes you lose your hair; you NEED it as a male.

[Paularious]

Ok i see that there are serious side effects to propecia how does this relate to Astaxanthin?

8 mg too high in your opinion? ... i am backing it off until i understand this...

It says on the site you linked to that propecia can shrink your genitals .. oops... now i have hair but no balls?

Thanks for your reply!

[daouda]

Ok i see that there are serious side effects to propecia how does this relate to Astaxanthin?

8 mg too high in your opinion? ... i am backing it off until i understand this...

Hey I didnt mean to get ppl paranoid, just encourage a little cautiousness : mega-dosing a supplement that isnt THAT well researched is never wise.
Personally i limit myself to 8mg a day max (but i rather take 3-4mg per day), i'd push it to 16mg if im going under the sun (beach, hiking)... put then im pulling these numbers out of my ass.

It says on the site you linked to that propecia can shrink your genitals .. oops... now i have hair but no ball?

Take it easy and read everything before letting yourself panic after reading one dramatic report chosen for its ability to shake the public opinion.
Among the many ppl taking finasteride, some (more than merck is willing to admit) young ppl suffer from impaired sexual function, among these, a few have experienced this "shrunken junk" effect. Plus its a stretch to assume that ATX will have the same adverse effects as finasteride becasue they are both 5ARi. However quite a few ppl have reported lowered libido from other "natural" 5ARi such as fish oil (the megadosing crowd), saw palmetto, curcumin etc



Just found this, seems reasonably well researched
http://www.naturalme...asp?article=293

Astaxanthin: A Review of the Literature

Use cautiously in patients with hormone disorders or those using agents that affect hormones, particularly 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors, as astaxanthin may inhibit 5-alpha-reductase, thereby inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Theoretically, adverse effects related to 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors, such as decreased libido, gynecomastia, decreased semen quantity during ejaculation, impotence, increased skin pigmentation, hair growth, weight gain, and depressed mood, may occur.

Edited by daouda, 16 December 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Paularious]

Good information though because to tell you the truth i've noticed some of these side effects in that abstract you cite, over the past couple of months and I was seriously trying to figure out what the hell was going on ... i've actually been really worried about it. It could be the cumulative effect or the combination effect of fish oil, cucurmin and astaxanthin etc...

I have to say that the coincidence seems a little strong. I've had blood work done in that past month and nothing seems out of the ordinary and hormones are where theyre supposed to be but maybe you wouldn't see an effect in routine bloodwork.

This is an eye opener for me. I've recently kicked up the astaxanthin, and fish oil and cucurmin and i see all of them mentioned in the abstract for the review you cite. I'm stopping for a few weeks to see if i start to feel any differently.

Megadosing is a bad strategy agree. Currently, i'm not, just combinations of things in what i thought were moderate doses. A number of years ago i was popping alot of resveratrol when the hype started and i noticed my achilles tendons aching, like really hurting, and this went on for maybe 4 months before i found out that it was a side effect of megadosing resveratrol ( like >500mg/day). So I do believe side effects to supplements can be serious in some cases.

Thanks again for the information.

[dear mrclock]

so if astaxanthin is 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, it means it lowers your testosterone and no libido effect occurs ? strange. with up to 8 mg of it, im horny all the time. can you explain this ??

[dear mrclock]

was checking http://en.wikipedia....ctase_inhibitor and it seems to me any herb, any type of food, almost anything can be inhibitor. what do you do ? if you consider anything to be bad that is 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, you might as well try to follow very strict diet. its ridiculous

[abolitionist]

I've noticed minor positive skin changes after two months of 2x 6mg daily Nutrex brand Astaxanthin;

http://www.nutrex-ha...anthin-60-vgels

Libido hasn't been effected as far as I can tell. I am a little worried though about contamination resulting from Fukushima - does anyone know of a source that is tested?

Edited by abolitionist, 17 December 2012 - 03:11 AM.

[dear mrclock]

its Bioastin made in Hawaii, but you can get Zenthin made by Valensa Corp but im not sure where they manufacture theirs.

[niner]

was checking http://en.wikipedia....ctase_inhibitor and it seems to me any herb, any type of food, almost anything can be inhibitor. what do you do ? if you consider anything to be bad that is 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, you might as well try to follow very strict diet. its ridiculous

Anything? It listed a handful of obscure herbs. BFD. That hardly means ANYthing is a 5ARi. Secondly, not all of the substances listed have a level of inhibition that matters. Enzyme inhibition isn't a black and white, on/off kind of thing. There are degrees of inhibition. In addition, if the compound has crappy pharmacokinetics, like most of these metabolically unstable herbs, you will never see a high enough level in the body to do anything anyway. It's not ridiculous. Unless you grossly misinterpret it.

[dear mrclock]

Zinc,^[17] azelaic acid,^[17] β-sitosterol,^[18] certain unsaturated aliphatic fatty acids such as gamma-linolenic acid, alpha-linolenic acid, linoleic acid, and oleic acid,^[19] and a variety of polyphenols[
Medium chain fatty acids such as those found in coconut and the kernel of many palm fruits have also been found to inhibit 5α-reductase

AND OTHER HERBS etc.

are those stated above OBSCURE ? specifically the most widely consumed fatty acids and variety of polyphenols (ill assume anything thats widely consumed).


also thats whats written on wikipedia and/or whats found as of yet. i assume many many more undisclosed but i cant discuss this without facts.

Edited by dear mrclock, 17 December 2012 - 03:43 AM.

[niner]

but i cant discuss this without facts.

Why let that stop you now? Re-read my post. It's all about potency and dose.

[dear mrclock]

ok so back to this; from what i read about 5 alpha reductase inhibitors they should lower your libido, but do you know why i have had increase in it when i took such in relatively high doses ? one mention being astaxanthin, people dont report any libio increase, but i have noticed it with high doses. maybe its not 5 alpha reductase inhibitor at all ?

[Guardian4981]

ok so back to this; from what i read about 5 alpha reductase inhibitors they should lower your libido, but do you know why i have had increase in it when i took such in relatively high doses ? one mention being astaxanthin, people dont report any libio increase, but i have noticed it with high doses. maybe its not 5 alpha reductase inhibitor at all ?

Anti oxidants are believed to help impotence most likely by improving functioning of the testes. Testicular functions such as sperm production are said to be very susceptible to oxidative stress.

Many substances have numerous pathways they influence, the downside of one may be outweighed by the upside of another. Another poster mentioned coconut oil, coconut oil has been shown to increase testosterone production more then most other oils.

[daouda]

so if astaxanthin is 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, it means it lowers your testosterone

Not at all. 5AR inhibitors lower DHT, not T. Actually inhibiting T reduction to DHT by 5AR makes for higher levels of T (at least transitorily). But T is less androgenic than DHT. Plus DHT has anti-aromatase properties, so inhibiting 5ARi too much can lead to higher aromatization of T into estrogens, furthering the "feminizing" effect. And high E levels signals negative feedback stronger than high T levels, so ultimately 5ARi can lead to lowered T and a hypogonadal state (some of the finasteride victimes) The negative effect of 5ARi on libido probably only occur at higher doses or with more potent substances such as finasteride. One should probably be careful not stacking to many anti-androgenic substances at too high of a dose.
It is true that many substances "good for you" have anti-androgenic properties
5ARi : reishi, fish oil, alpha linoleic acid, coconut oil, curcumin, astaxanthin, lycopene, zinc, of course all vegetable substances containing beta sitosterols...
Anti-androgenic by other means : green tea EGcG (occupies the androgen receptor with no androgenic properties) , astragalus, milk thistle (phytoestrogen and alters hepatic metabolism of T)
Those are just off the top of my head but there are many more.

But like guardian said above,

Many substances have numerous pathways they influence, the downside of one may be outweighed by the upside of another. Another poster mentioned coconut oil, coconut oil has been shown to increase testosterone production more then most other oils.

Reishi for instance is a relatively strong 5ARi but in TCM its regarded more as a libido enhancer than the opposite.
So no need to freak out. Pharmaceutical substances designed to be pure 5ARi on the other hand, should be avoided; unless maybe for transgender ppl, and of course ppl with androgen-dependent cancers (prostate cancer)

Edited by daouda, 17 December 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[stephen_b]

Effect of astaxanthin on cycling time trial performance. 4 mg/day given to competitive cyclists improved performance over placebo.

I'm speculating that 2mg might be better for those who don't exercise quite so much, and that 4 mg might be better for those in competitive sports. Anyone have that study that found 2mg better than some higher amount (8mg or 12mg, IIRC)?

I'm trying to narrow down my best dose. I take other supplements like MSM and C60, so that might favor 2mg for me.

[Kevnzworld]

Effect of astaxanthin on cycling time trial performance. 4 mg/day given to competitive cyclists improved performance over placebo.

I'm speculating that 2mg might be better for those who don't exercise quite so much, and that 4 mg might be better for those in competitive sports. Anyone have that study that found 2mg better than some higher amount (8mg or 12mg, IIRC)?

I'm trying to narrow down my best dose. I take other supplements like MSM and C60, so that might favor 2mg for me.

In this double blind placebo controlled human study, 2 mg of astaxanthin was as effective as 8 mg in suppressing inflammation ( CRP ), mitigating DNA damage and most measures of immune enhancement.
" The concentration of plasma C-reactive proteins was lower (P < 0.05) in 2Asta on wk 8 compared to the Con (Figure 4). However, higher dietary astaxanthin amounts
did not influence the concentration of this acute phase protein."
" DNA Damage
Concentrations of 8-OHdG were dramatically lower (P < 0.01) as early as wk 4 in 2Asta and 8Asta (Figure 5). DNA damage observed with 2Asta was not further decreased in the group fed higher dietary astaxanthin (8Asta). "
Given the plasma concentration shown with 2 mg vs 8mg, 2mg seems like a better chooice.

" Astaxanthin decreased oxidative stress and
inflammation and enhanced immune response
in humans "
http://www.biomedcen...3-7075-7-18.pdf

[abolitionist]

"There was no difference in TNF and IL-2 concentrations, but plasma IFN-g and IL-6 increased on wk 8 in subjects given 8 mg astaxanthin."

If you are going to be taking it long term, you may need a higher dosage to keep getting the same effect you would normally get from 2 or 4mg daily.

Might be best to use 2-4mg for the first month and then ramp it up to 8 or 12mg - if we are going for the maximum anti-aging effect.

"For instance, the astaxanthin content of salmon flesh ranges from 3 to 37 mg/kg [42,43]; therefore, a 200-g serving of salmon provides approximately 1 to 7 mg astaxanthin. Wild salmon contains the 3S, 3S' form of astaxanthin almost exclusively. The 3R, 3R' form is found rarely in nature but does exist in some crustaceans such as in Krill. In healthy humans, 6 mg astaxanthin from H. pluvialis algal extract can be safely consumed [44]."

I don't see any harm in taking 6mg twice daily at this point - it's like eating Salmon twice a day.

Edited by abolitionist, 17 December 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[abolitionist]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23166730 ;


Abstract

Amyloid β-peptide (Aβ) is hypothesized to play a key role by oxidatively impairing the capacity of red blood cells (RBCs) to deliver oxygen to the brain. These processes are implicated in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease (AD). Although plasma Aβ has been investigated thoroughly, the presence and distribution of Aβ in human RBCs are still unclear. In this study, we quantitated Aβ40 and Aβ42 in human RBCs with ELISA assays, and provided evidence that significant amounts of Aβ could be detected in RBCs and that the RBC Aβ levels increased with aging. The RBC Aβ levels increased with aging. On the other hand, providing an antioxidant supplement (astaxanthin, a polar carotenoid) to humans was found to decrease RBC Aβ as well as oxidative stress marker levels. These results suggest that plasma Aβ40 and Aβ42 bind to RBCs (possibly with aging), implying a pathogenic role of RBC Aβ. Moreover, the data indicate that RBC Aβ40 and Aβ42 may constitute biomarkers of AD. As a preventive strategy, therapeutic application of astaxanthin as an Aβ-lowering agent in RBCs could be considered as a possible anti-dementia agent. TRIAL REGISTRATION: Controlled-Trials.com ISRCTN42483402.

Edited by abolitionist, 17 December 2012 - 06:18 PM.