23 replies to this topic

[ozone]

1. Is there a point to taking ALCAR anymore if I am going to take the Arginate version instead?

2. Also, what's the recommended dose then of Arginate? - i.e., do I need to take 2.6g of ALCAR-Arginate in order to get my 1.2g of ALCAR?
ALCAR-Arginate =
45% ALCAR
38% Arginine
16% Hydrocloric Acid

3. Also, are there any pro-oxidative issues regarding Arginine, like there are with ALCAR?

4. Oh yeah, and why does this stuff contain Hydrocloric Acid?!

Exposure to hydrochloric acid can cause circulatory collapse which may lead to death; it can also cause asphyxial death due to glottic edema. It can also cause conjunctivitis and corneal burns, inflammation and ulceration of the respiratory tract, dermatitis, skin burns, rhinitis, laryngitis, tracheitis, bronchitis, pulmonary edema, dental erosion, hoarseness, a feeling of suffocation, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea, dehydration, convulsions, oliguria, hypotension, chills, shock, lethargy, stupor, permanent visual damage, cough, and choking. Ingestion or skin contact with hydrochloric acid can cause corrosion of mucous membranes of the mouth, throat, and esophagus, with immediate pain and dysphagia; it can also cause gastric hemorrhage and intense thirst.

I don't understand...? [huh]

Edited by ozone, 24 March 2005 - 09:26 AM.

[cesium]

I doubt they mean the HCl is in free form. Maybe one of the chemists who post to this forum could elaborate.

[eternaltraveler]

HCL is commonly reacted with pure forms of countless medications and compounds in order to increase their stability.

HCL is stomach acid as well.

Don't worry about it.

[ozone]

Maybe someone can answer this question. Why is ALCAR-Arginate so special? It's simply ALCAR with some Arginine thrown in, and since Arginine has virtually zero cognitive benefits, why bother with ALCAR-Arginate at all?

[REGIMEN]

longer half-life as chemical bond splitting takes longers...slower release? arginine charges alcar into body more efficiently? bound form takes alcar to places in body that arginine more readily goes to (such as with GABA bonded to Niacin...picamilon, right?; or with radioactive iodine ...iodine goes to thyroid and 'treats' overactive or enlarged glands with cell-killing radiation)???
...conjecture..look at all those question marks...

[4jacques]

I wrote a email to this company Sigma and they said the ALCAR-Arginate has no Alcar or arginine in it.

It is a new "aminocarnitine" so they hope in their studies it works.

But so far no human tests!

[ozone]

I wrote a email to this company Sigma and they said the ALCAR-Arginate has no Alcar or arginine in it.

It is a new "aminocarnitine" so they hope in their studies it works. 

But so far no human tests!

That's odd. Here is the assay directly from the company's website:



45.1% ALCAR
38.7% Arginate

Now... that's ACLAR and Arginate right? Or... ?

[psychenaut]

I have assembled some research provided to me by the Sigma-Tau rep, and PUBMED research, on This Page. This is the information the rep advised me they feel is relevant. The information is quite detailed. Perhaps it will assist in this discussion.

[4jacques]

I wrote a email to this company Sigma and they said the ALCAR-Arginate has no Alcar or arginine in it.

It is a new "aminocarnitine" so they hope in their studies it works. 

But so far no human tests!

That's odd. Here is the assay directly from the company's website:



45.1% ALCAR
38.7% Arginate

Now... that's ACLAR and Arginate right? Or... ?

ALCAR-Arginate is not really 45.1% ALCAR and 38.7% Arginine HCL.
That is the "theoretical" content.
So they fused these molecules together in a chemical reaction and formed a new one with different properties.
Every study so far is inside the dishes with cells (in vitro), not in real humans (in vivo), the results are promising but there is no evidence of animals or humans getting these effects yet.
Therefore I am only going to take ALCAR until they have results from animals (mice, rats, monkeys, doges, etc) because this is too expensive for me.

[Chaos Theory]

What is the advantage of alcar-arginine over regular alcar? What is the effective dose for a twenty something year old who lifts weights regularly?

I ask because of the cost of alcar-arginine over regular alcar. I would rather take an effective dose of alcar than have to skimp on alcar-arginine because of the cost. Though I know some studies show that low doses are more effective than excessively high ones.

[niner]

My experience was that the arginate didn't provide the energy boost that plain alcar did. Supposedly the arginate influences neural growth in some way, but I was really interested in the regular ALCAR effects, so I've stuck with that. I take 500mg twice a day.

[polybi]

has any one tried this stuff? what does it feel like and how does it compare to vanilla alcar

[bobman]

has any one tried this stuff? what does it feel like and how does it compare to vanilla alcar

I've been taking it for about 8 weeks. It doesn't seem any different than ALCAR, but I wouldn't expect you to be able to notice any nootropic effects acutely beyond stimulating qualities. ALCAR certainly isn't tremendously stimulating. The purported effects like increased dendrite outgrowth, increased length of dendritic branches, certainly wouldn't be noticeable on a physiological level.

[Johann]

If one is closer to 40 years of age, he would be more likely to feel the effects of ALCAR.

[Pike]

i think alcar arginate would be okay for some older populations or maybe people who don't respond to regular alcar. plain old alcar is dirt cheap, compared to the extravagantly overpriced alcar-arginate, and has all of the supporting literature anyway. and, until alcar-arginate is no longer some proprietary form (branded as Arginocarn, i believe), i wouldn't expect the price to fall dramatically any time soon.

i haven't checked in a while now so i might be off, but i don't remember anything in the alcar-arginate sales pitch claiming it offered any sort of benefit that regular alcar didn't to some lesser extent. propionyl-l-carnitine is something i'd like to look into a little, but again, since it's also a proprietary form (Glycocarn, i think), it's not something that you should expect a price-drop in soon.

that's my $0.02

[xdopamine]

Hello,

recently I discovered a special version of Acetyl L-Carnitine called "Acetyl L-Carnitine Arginate" and read that it stimulates neurite growth by 19.5%! Would this effect be noticeable for a 19y old male or should I stay with plain Acetyl L-Carnitine? I know this question sounds quite odd but maybe somebody has experiences concerning this matter...

Bye.

[hamishm00]

I switched from ALCAR to ACLAR Arginate a year ago. I take about 2-3 grams a day.

The neurite / NGF theory is interesting, but there are only invitro studies as AFAIK.

Anecdotally, I think the ALCAR arginate improved my keyboard typing accuracy, and maybe visual colour and depth perception.

[arvcondor]

I've seen that there are about three different types of ALCAR: hydrochloride, arginate, and dihydrochloride. Anyone know the differences between them?

[chrono]

I merged three Arginate threads together, because they asked essentially the same question.

I'll post some studies sometime soon, but to answer arvcondor's question, I don't think there's much difference between ALCAR and the arginate. And AFAIK there are two forms commercially available; ALCAR HCl, and ALCAR Arginate Dihydrochloride. The HCl salt info is commonly dropped from their name, in conversation.

There's only a few studies on the arginate form, most done by the company that created and sells it, showing that it exerts more of an effect than regular ALCAR on neurite outgrowth and cell morphology. This sounds great, but these petri-dish studies don't answer questions like whether the arginate would exert the same effect in the brain. IMO, the expense really isn't justified, when plain ALCAR is dirt cheap, and there are other substances which have much better in vivo research demonstrating enhanced neurogenesis. If you're just looking for the cognitive benefits, I wouldn't expect any difference at all.

[niner]

I've used both the Arginate and regular ALCAR. The Arginate didn't do anything for me (no energy boost), but I like ALCAR. I've stuck with plain ALCAR and never looked back.

[chrono]

I've used both the Arginate and regular ALCAR. The Arginate didn't do anything for me (no energy boost), but I like ALCAR. I've stuck with plain ALCAR and never looked back.

I almost typed "whether it even crosses the BBB" as part of what we don't know about the arginate, but as hamishm00 was the only report I've heard and mentioned that he didn't notice much difference, I decided not to. Very interesting. Are you referring to physical or mental energy?

[niner]

I've used both the Arginate and regular ALCAR. The Arginate didn't do anything for me (no energy boost), but I like ALCAR. I've stuck with plain ALCAR and never looked back.

I almost typed "whether it even crosses the BBB" as part of what we don't know about the arginate, but as hamishm00 was the only report I've heard and mentioned that he didn't notice much difference, I decided not to. Very interesting. Are you referring to physical or mental energy?

Good question about the BBB. I don't know if it does or not, or if it's been looked at. The energy I was thinking about is physical more than mental. I should probably try not using it occasionally just to see what that feels like. I'm using a gram a day, and when I started using it, the difference I really noticed was in endurance exercise.

[HOTCells]

Sorry if this is a repost, but I kept getting error messages when doing a search. Which one is best for Mitochondrial support or are there any major differences between HCI and Arginate?

[hamishm00]

The Arginate form may be superior to other forms of ALCAR in respect of stimulating the growth of new neurites in the brain, by mimicking the effect of nerve growth factor. The in vivo effect of ALCAR arginate is theoretical at the moment.

As far as mitochondrial support goes, I doubt there is much difference between the carnitines, but noone knows for sure. If you are looking to maximise mitochondrial support, you should research other supps like PQQ, BCAAs, Soy Isoflavones, Idebenone, CoQ10, resveratrol and quercetin).

For ALCAR, I hedge my bets by taking a fairly high dose of a broad spectrum ALCAR supp twice daily (Jarrow CarnitALL).

Edited by hamishm00, 02 June 2011 - 11:07 AM.