51 replies to this topic

[Viscid]

Since Piracetam has a positive effect on NMDA receptors, would long-term users of Piracetam have increased benefit from glutamine supplementation?

Would Piracetam and Glutamine be considered synergistic with one another?

We focus on Choline supplementation, but don't take Glutamine into much consideration at all. Why is that?

Edited by Viscid, 13 January 2010 - 02:04 AM.

[medicineman]

because glutamine supplementation might be harmful..............................

normally, excess glutamate is just pumped out of the brain via glial cells (i think) but if glutamate does happen to increase due to malfunction or drug induced, there is a chance for damage.

Neurotoxicity is mediated by glutamate at the NMDA receptors. these receptors are double edged..... especially if they are primed and ready for action.....

Edited by medicineman, 17 January 2010 - 03:26 PM.

[caffeinehead]

can someone verify this? I take glutamine and piracetam together...

[Cuil]

I can verify that for the first time in 2 years, my brain feels normal again. I bombarded my brain with piracetam without glutamine supplementation, and now with glutamine supplementation alone, well, try for yourself

I do however still take a stack of nootropics, but without my L-Glutamine levels being replenished, it was incomplete. For two years I suffered from pointless anxiety and lethargy, not to mention depression and brain fog. This whole fear of glutamate damage had me irrational. I have been taking theanine, huperzine a, magnesium taurate, piracetam, Bacopa, ashwagandha, adderall, you name it, I have tried it. The arsenal was simply incomplete. I have been meditating for years with no benefits. I sat down for the first time last night (only 3 hours of taking 7,000mg of L-Glutamine) and it was effortless pranayama.

[mulvena312]

I can verify that for the first time in 2 years, my brain feels normal again. I bombarded my brain with piracetam without glutamine supplementation, and now with glutamine supplementation alone, well, try for yourself

I do however still take a stack of nootropics, but without my L-Glutamine levels being replenished, it was incomplete. For two years I suffered from pointless anxiety and lethargy, not to mention depression and brain fog. This whole fear of glutamate damage had me irrational. I have been taking theanine, huperzine a, magnesium taurate, piracetam, Bacopa, ashwagandha, adderall, you name it, I have tried it. The arsenal was simply incomplete. I have been meditating for years with no benefits. I sat down for the first time last night (only 3 hours of taking 7,000mg of L-Glutamine) and it was effortless pranayama.

Same from my side. Glutamine was the missing key in my stack that changed everything.

[stablemind]

Interesting. Is there any other nutrient that piracetam depletes besides glutamine and acetylcholine? Would anyone know if glutamine supplementation would pose any risk of excitotoxicity?

Edited by stablemind, 14 June 2010 - 07:00 PM.

[John Barleycorn]

Is there any other nutrient that piracetam depletes besides glutamine and acetylcholine? Would anyone know if glutamine supplementation would pose any risk of excitotoxicity?

Piracetam is a modulator and not an agonist, so in theory it doesn't deplete anything. It does however open Ca++ channels, so there is an argument for excitotoxicity. It also improves receptor tone, which could be interpreted as an argument against excitotoxicity. Chronic administration results, in addition to neural reregulation, in neural growth (which could be just as significant). I don't think the research results are in yet, so a lot of these reservations seem to be based upon extrapolation. Apart from excitotoxicity, I have seen reservations about stimulant tolerance and even seizure thresholds.

[stablemind]

Is there any other nutrient that piracetam depletes besides glutamine and acetylcholine? Would anyone know if glutamine supplementation would pose any risk of excitotoxicity?

Piracetam is a modulator and not an agonist, so in theory it doesn't deplete anything. It does however open Ca++ channels, so there is an argument for excitotoxicity. It also improves receptor tone, which could be interpreted as an argument against excitotoxicity. Chronic administration results, in addition to neural reregulation, in neural growth (which could be just as significant). I don't think the research results are in yet, so a lot of these reservations seem to be based upon extrapolation. Apart from excitotoxicity, I have seen reservations about stimulant tolerance and even seizure thresholds.

In this case, wouldn't it be safer to take magnesium and/or memantine to block the channels whenever taking piracetam?

[rvdvaart]

I can verify that for the first time in 2 years, my brain feels normal again. I bombarded my brain with piracetam without glutamine supplementation, and now with glutamine supplementation alone, well, try for yourself

I do however still take a stack of nootropics, but without my L-Glutamine levels being replenished, it was incomplete. For two years I suffered from pointless anxiety and lethargy, not to mention depression and brain fog. This whole fear of glutamate damage had me irrational. I have been taking theanine, huperzine a, magnesium taurate, piracetam, Bacopa, ashwagandha, adderall, you name it, I have tried it. The arsenal was simply incomplete. I have been meditating for years with no benefits. I sat down for the first time last night (only 3 hours of taking 7,000mg of L-Glutamine) and it was effortless pranayama.

Same from my side. Glutamine was the missing key in my stack that changed everything.

What did it change specifically?

[24 Is Ours]

Does anyone know if supplementing with L-Glutamine long term is actually safe?

[Wurzel Bagman]

Can someone taking glutamine describe what it's done for them? Is this a good thing to take with racetams?

[Ichoose2live]

Yesterday, I took 5g of L-Glutamine pre-workout. My normal regimen is this: 4g/day of Piracetam, 12g/day of Fish oil and 2000 IU of Vitamin D-3. My dosage of Piracetam are at structured hours. 7 AM 1g; 11 AM 1g; 15 PM 1g and 18 PM 1g. I took L-Glutamine at 14:30. At around 16:30 I noticed a very significant boost in energy and mood, I felt very alert, fast and speedy. Almost like an overdose of Speed (amphetamines). At around 19:20, TOTAL CRASH, I noticed a very annoying headache in the frontal part. I was thinking like '' God D*** did my pre-frontal cortex just explode???'' That freaking scared me. No joke that experience was wicked and I'm trying it again.

[HCL3347978]

this is the same as L-Glutamine?

[csrpj]

Since Piracetam has a positive effect on NMDA receptors, would long-term users of Piracetam have increased benefit from glutamine supplementation?

Would Piracetam and Glutamine be considered synergistic with one another?

We focus on Choline supplementation, but don't take Glutamine into much consideration at all. Why is that?

because glutamine supplementation might be harmful..............................

normally, excess glutamate is just pumped out of the brain via glial cells (i think) but if glutamate does happen to increase due to malfunction or drug induced, there is a chance for damage.

Neurotoxicity is mediated by glutamate at the NMDA receptors. these receptors are double edged..... especially if they are primed and ready for action.....

I can verify that for the first time in 2 years, my brain feels normal again. I bombarded my brain with piracetam without glutamine supplementation, and now with glutamine supplementation alone, well, try for yourself

I do however still take a stack of nootropics, but without my L-Glutamine levels being replenished, it was incomplete. For two years I suffered from pointless anxiety and lethargy, not to mention depression and brain fog. This whole fear of glutamate damage had me irrational. I have been taking theanine, huperzine a, magnesium taurate, piracetam, Bacopa, ashwagandha, adderall, you name it, I have tried it. The arsenal was simply incomplete. I have been meditating for years with no benefits. I sat down for the first time last night (only 3 hours of taking 7,000mg of L-Glutamine) and it was effortless pranayama.

is everybody talking about the same thing? glutamine or glutamate?

[csrpj]

OK, i think i'm gonna give this a try. any advice on dosage, timing, empty/full stomach?

also, i'm not sure if i really need it, given i often take this product into my smoothie shakes: http://www.iherb.com...-908-g/343?at=0

it's whey protein, which contains 3.24 g Glutamine + Glutamic Acid per serving. i usually take a scoop or more a day mixed with fruits/veggies.

also, is it a good idea to take b6 with glutamine, as it assists to its conversion to GABA, one of the great benefits of glutamine supplementation (or one i'm looking for, anyway)?

[caruga]

Tried cosupping up to 10 grams of glutamine, and didn't feel anything except perhaps a subtle energy lift.

[John Barleycorn]

is everybody talking about the same thing? glutamine or glutamate?

Exactly, especially given that the former is generally relaxing whilst the latter is stimulating. That is, if you believe that altering neurotransmitter levels is as simple as eating a precursor. L-aspartic acid and various aspartate salts seem to be lot easier to come by than glutamic acid/glutamate (MSG excepted, of course)!

[stephen_b]

Some people are worried that glutamine gets converted to glutamate, an excitotoxin (for example, see this article).

There are still some uncertainties around it, but in general it seems safe, at least for acute use. See Assessment of the Safety of Glutamine and Other Amino Acids.

[Zandra08z]

Amino acid glutamine is a very important role in the muscles of the body to recover the amount. Glutamine has been almost solely responsible for the repair process of living, because it is one of the most abundant non-essential amino acid in the body. However, glutamine is also used for exercises such as bodybuilding. When the body is too stressed, it tends to deplete glutamine stores in the body to use calories, leaving little or no repair of muscle tissue, which will follow shortly.

glutaminl

[jlspartz]

Just throwing this out there, but glutamine can be converted back down to glutamic acid in the body and used for detoxifying your system of ammonia, and assisting in the transportation of potassium across the blood brain barrier. Glutamic acid with racetams seems to feel more refreshing to me, as does increasing potassium intake which I've noticed for about a year now.

[Thorsten3]

This sounds a bit crazy to be honest. It doesn't sound healthy although I expect it would be a lot of fun if it is as good as what people describe. But so is taking heroin I suppose! It doesn't mean it's a good thing, BUT I am curious. I used to enjoy Piracetam immensely, maybe this could re-ignite my love for the drug. I haven't taken Piracetam for a good 5 months as the last few times I took it I turned into an aggressive, impatient asshole each time!!

[jlspartz]

This sounds a bit crazy to be honest. It doesn't sound healthy although I expect it would be a lot of fun if it is as good as what people describe. But so is taking heroin I suppose! It doesn't mean it's a good thing, BUT I am curious. I used to enjoy Piracetam immensely, maybe this could re-ignite my love for the drug. I haven't taken Piracetam for a good 5 months as the last few times I took it I turned into an aggressive, impatient asshole each time!!

You might want to try a different racetam then. Piracetam and Oxiracetam put me in a good mood, although Aniracetam does the opposite for me (similar to what you describe). Each one affects each person differently. It could also be the choline supplement if you used one. I can't take choline bitartrate or cdp choline - alpha-gpc or natural sources like eggs are the way I must go.

Edited by jlspartz, 08 February 2011 - 11:24 PM.

[longevitynow]

Glutamine is considered a pretty safe amino acid to supplement, but usual dosages are fairly high. I've read the brain can only use glucose or glutamine for fuel. I'll happily join the experiment. It seems far safer than some other things (ritalin, adderall, or, God forbid, ecstasy) that people are taking as combos.

[Thorsten3]

This sounds a bit crazy to be honest. It doesn't sound healthy although I expect it would be a lot of fun if it is as good as what people describe. But so is taking heroin I suppose! It doesn't mean it's a good thing, BUT I am curious. I used to enjoy Piracetam immensely, maybe this could re-ignite my love for the drug. I haven't taken Piracetam for a good 5 months as the last few times I took it I turned into an aggressive, impatient asshole each time!!

You might want to try a different racetam then. Piracetam and Oxiracetam put me in a good mood, although Aniracetam does the opposite for me (similar to what you describe). Each one affects each person differently. It could also be the choline supplement if you used one. I can't take choline bitartrate or cdp choline - alpha-gpc or natural sources like eggs are the way I must go.

I've tried them all and Piracetam was by far the best. I'm going to try this experiment as well, i'll report back.

[kilgoretrout]

Does anyone know if supplementing with L-Glutamine long term is actually safe?

Its well known to be quite safe. It's a mis-assumption that just because it starts with "glutam" it leads to "glutamate" running all over the place.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine
"It is not recognized as anessential amino acidbut may become conditionally essential in certain situations, including intensive athletic training or certain gastrointestinal disorders"
"In human blood, glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid, with a concentration of about 500-900 µmol/l.^[2]"
Glutamine plays a role in a variety of biochemical functions including:

• Protein synthesis, as any other amino acid.
• Regulation of acid-base balance in the kidney by producing ammonium.^[3]
• Cellular energy, as a source, next to glucose.^[4]
• Nitrogen donation for many anabolic processes.^[2]
• Carbon donation, as a source, refilling the citric acid cycle.^[5]
• Nontoxic transporter of ammonia in the blood circulation.

The most relevant glutamine-producing tissue is the muscle mass, accounting for about 90% of all glutamine synthesized. Glutamine is also released, in small amounts, by the lung and the brain.^[6] Although the liver is capable of relevant glutamine synthesis, its role in glutamine metabolism is more regulatory than producing, since the liver takes up large amounts of glutamine derived from the gut.^[2]


[edit]Consumers
The most eager consumers of glutamine are the cells of intestines,^[2] the kidney cells for the acid base balance, activated immune cells^[7] and many cancer cells.^[5] In respect to the last point mentioned, different glutamine analogues such as DON, Azaserine orAcivicin are tested as anti-cancer drugs.


Examples for the usage of glutamine
In catabolic states of injury and illness, glutamine becomes conditionally-essential (requiring intake from food or supplements). Glutamine has been studied extensively over the past 10–15 years and has been shown to be useful in treatment of serious illnesses, injury, trauma, burns, and treatment-related side-effects of cancer as well as in wound healing for postoperative patients.^[8] Glutamine is also marketed as a supplement used for muscle growth in weightlifting, bodybuilding, endurance, and other sports. Evidence indicates that glutamine when orally loaded may increase plasma HGH levels by stimulating the anterior pituitary gland.^[9] In biological research, L-glutamine is commonly added ^[10] to the media in cell culture.


[edit]Aiding recovery after surgery
It is also known that glutamine has various effects in reducing healing time after operations. Hospital-stay times after abdominal surgery can be reduced by providing parenteral nutrition regimes containing high amounts of glutamine to patients. Clinical trials have revealed that patients on supplementation regimes containing glutamine have improved nitrogen balances, generation of cysteinyl-leukotrienes from polymorphonuclear neutrophil granulocytes, and improved lymphocyte recovery and intestinal permeability (in postoperative patients), in comparison to those that had no glutamine within their dietary regime, all without any side-effects.^[11]


Nutrition

[edit]Occurrences in nature
Glutamine is the most abundant naturally occurring, non-essential amino acid in the human body and one of the few amino acids that directly cross the blood-brain barrier.^[12] In the body, it is found circulating in the blood as well as stored in the skeletal muscles. It becomes conditionally essential (requiring intake from food or supplements) in states of illness or injury.^[8]




Hopefully the above will end the oft repeated bugaboo that glutamine supplementation is in any way whatsoever harmfull... utter silliness, in fact it is HIGHLY beneficial to almost all individuals.

[longevitynow]

The magic is back....It was like my first Piracetam experience/OD. But seriously, I took about 5 gms of glutamine this morning with my tired (not very noticeable) Piracetam stack (Piracetam and choline with some lipton iced tea) and indeed I had one of my most "I'm much more lucid/verbal/creative" mornings in a while. So seems like a good inexpensive addition to a stack. In general I find that Piracetam opens up my right brain but it often needs a little push of some type of stimulant (caffeine, DMAE, Sulbutiamine) in order for it to produce a more salient state than my baseline. I'd argue that this is less likely to produce excess glutamate than most other stimulants.

[Thorsten3]

The magic is back....It was like my first Piracetam experience/OD. But seriously, I took about 5 gms of glutamine this morning with my tired (not very noticeable) Piracetam stack (Piracetam and choline with some lipton iced tea) and indeed I had one of my most "I'm much more lucid/verbal/creative" mornings in a while. So seems like a good inexpensive addition to a stack. In general I find that Piracetam opens up my right brain but it often needs a little push of some type of stimulant (caffeine, DMAE, Sulbutiamine) in order for it to produce a more salient state than my baseline. I'd argue that this is less likely to produce excess glutamate than most other stimulants.

coool keep reporting back i'm going straight down to my local health shop tommorow to get a tub of gluta

[nito]

so there's more chance piracetam will work cus of glutamine? Piracetam alone doesen't work for me.

[longevitynow]

so there's more chance piracetam will work cus of glutamine? Piracetam alone doesen't work for me.

The first time I did a megadose of Piracetam (4 grams at one sitting), it did create a verbal hypomania/extroversion/creative episode. And that was just Piracetam by itself. I'm not nearly so likely to get that effect from Piracetam alone these days. But since then I have added many things to a Piracetam stack that is constantly varying and seem to enhance it/make something happen. My hypothesis is that creative episodes with Piracetam are more likely to happen when the brain is a bit excited already. Strong responders are typically a bit on the manic edge in the first place. So things that stimulate the brain will tend to enhance Piracetam's effect. So caffeine, ritalin, adderall, modafanil, hydergine, deprenyl will enhance the effect, but also less stimulating cognitive enhancers: DMAE, ALCAR, B-vitamins, choline, sulbutiamine, etc. Glutamine is probably similar. It can certainly also be the case that Piracetam, through its numerous mechanisms of actions, is enhancing or broadening the effect of these other substances. Another strong potentiator of Piracetam is exercise. Down some Piracetam and your favorite things to stack with it and go do a solid aerobic or anaerobic workout and see if you don't notice a difference.

Advice to Piracetam non-responders:

1)Skip it entirely for at least a week, maybe longer. If you've been on it a while, maybe even a month to really get it and it's effect out of your system.
2)Take a large dose of Piracetam (3200-5000mgs) all at once with some choline (say 500 mgs).
3)Take several Piracetam stacking substances: DMAE, ALCAR, deprenyl, sulbutiamine, sublingual B-12 or just about anything else others recommend stacking with Piracetam.
4)Add a stimulant at a dose that by itself you find rather stimulating.
5)Go do a fairly intense workout.
I predict most "non-responders" will have an effect.

[John Barleycorn]

So things that stimulate the brain will tend to enhance Piracetam's effect. So caffeine, ritalin, adderall, modafanil, hydergine, deprenyl will enhance the effect, but also less stimulating cognitive enhancers: DMAE, ALCAR, B-vitamins, choline, sulbutiamine, etc. Glutamine is probably similar. It can certainly also be the case that Piracetam, through its numerous mechanisms of actions, is enhancing or broadening the effect of these other substances.

Occam's razor suggests the best way of boosting piracetam is likely to be with some sort of NMDA agonist, which glutamine may indirectly be. So your list of boosters probably ought to include d-aspartic acid, preferably engineered for crossing the BBB and also for supplying NMDA co-factors. It already exists as a commercial product. I wonder how long it will be before someone does something similar with l-glutamate?