23 replies to this topic

[MrSpud]

I'm still sorting out getting the dosage right when taking piracetam and various choline sources. What exactly are the symptoms to look for that indicate acetylcholine overload?

I know that massive overload would be like nerve gas poisoning and that lesser overload might cause the opposite symptoms of traditional anticholinergics (i.e. anticholinergics can slow down parastalysis in the gut, inhibit sweating and dry out mucous membranes, dilate the pupils, etc... so theoretically too much acetylcholine could cause the opposite such as sweating, drooling, stomach cramps, constricted pupils, etc...) but what would milder overloads of acetylcholine cause?

[JasRonq]

Q&A on Acetylcholine Overload

This page seems to suggest that the first symptom of too many choline sources or acetylcholinesterase would be headaches caused by muscle tension. Considering that it is the neurotransmitter used for muscle contractions that seems very reasonable.

[mdma]

Your lose you hair, and you die

[MrSpud]

Your lose you hair, and you die

Ut oh....

[OneScrewLoose]

Nerve gases are acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, so, death.

[MrSpud]

Ok, we have headaches and, in extrame cases, death.

I was looking for more along the lines of what other symptoms would be present with mild acetylcholine overlead. The headache is a good one to look for. I just went ahead and looked up the common side effects of cholinesterase inhibitors at http://health.yahoo....--hw136473.html and found the following:
In general, most people seem to tolerate cholinesterase inhibitors very well. The most common side effects are:

■Nausea.
■Diarrhea.
■Vomiting.
■Indigestion.
■Abdominal pain.
■Loss of appetite and weight loss.
Less common side effects include insomnia, fatigue, and muscle cramps. Side effects tend to be mild and usually go away within a few weeks after treatment with the medicine is started.

Any other symptoms to be on the lookout for when experimenting with finding the "just right" dosage of choline sources when taking piracetam?

[JasRonq]

Most of that looks to be SLUDGE symptoms which is what you go through for nerve gas before it kills you. I imagine that there is a difference in severity there but that would then support that SLUDGE to a more minor degree is what you might start getting after tension headaches.
Sarin: Biological effects
The short- and long-term symptoms experienced by those affected included:
* coma
* convulsions
* death
* difficulty breathing
* disturbed sleep and nightmares
* extreme sensitivity to light
* foaming at the mouth
* high fevers
* influenza-like symptoms
* loss of consciousness
* loss of memory
* loss of bowel control
* nausea and vomiting
* paralysis
* post-traumatic stress disorder
* respiratory problems
* seizures
* uncontrollable trembling
* vision problems, both temporary and permanent

Convulsions, breathing difficulty, loss of bowel control, paralysis, respiratory problems, and uncontrollable trembling all seem related to the fact that acetyl-choline is the neurotransmitter for muscles and disturbing that wrecks muscle control. I would assume trembling, clenching, cramping and weakness to be possible milder version of that then. Memory loss and other mental problems stem from its role in memory which make sense too. In the case of nerve gases like sarin, death usually occurs from asphyxiation which occurs do to the inability to control the diaphragm, a muscles.

Looking at MrSpud's list and this one gastrointestinal disturbances seem to be likely too at some point.

Edited by JasRonq, 15 February 2010 - 05:59 AM.

[chrono]

ha, I think "death" is outcome of taking too much of anything.

I get excess ACh when combining Alpha GPC and ALCAR on the same day, even with a low dosage of each. I experience tension in the tops of my shoulders, into the sides of my neck. A headache appears with larger or multiple doses.

Neck tension and headaches are mentioned by a number of people on mind & muscle, usually related to ALCAR in some way, so I don't think they're the less common side effects in our area of concern.

[chainwheel]

yeah... I found that I can either do ALCAR or Alpha GPC, but not both for the same exact reasons Chrono... I had perfected my piracetam to choline.. then threw in the ALCAR and it was like aRRRGGh!

Edited by chainwheel, 07 January 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[deeptrance]

■Nausea.
■Diarrhea.
■Vomiting.
■Indigestion.
■Abdominal pain.
■Loss of appetite and weight loss.
Less common side effects include insomnia, fatigue, and muscle cramps. Side effects tend to be mild and usually go away within a few weeks after treatment with the medicine is started.

These are such common side effects of drugs, changes in diet, vitamins, food allergies --- it's frustrating to try to figure out what is actually causing any given symptom. Someone mentioned headaches and neck pain. I'm getting that from sitting at my computer looking for information about nutrition and nootropics!

I think the side effect of "death" is most commonly associated with "life." In fact, there is a one-to-one correlation. Pretty strong evidence.

[gray.bot]

I'll tell you what happens. You feel like someone came up to you and punched you in the stomach. Times that feeling by 12 hours.

Tension up and down the neck, on the back of the head, mild headaches, aching temples, back of eyes, inside head, and general headachey type symptoms.

Eating doesn't fix it. Sleeping doesn't fix it. Masturbating doesn't fix it (and come on that's a cure-all!). 20mg morphine fixes it.

If you would like to experience this then take 3 grams of choline, 3 grams of ALCAR and 400mcg of huperzine.

[kache]

Most of that looks to be SLUDGE symptoms which is what you go through for nerve gas before it kills you. I imagine that there is a difference in severity there but that would then support that SLUDGE to a more minor degree is what you might start getting after tension headaches.
Sarin: Biological effects
The short- and long-term symptoms experienced by those affected included:
* coma
* convulsions
* death
* difficulty breathing
* disturbed sleep and nightmares
* extreme sensitivity to light
* foaming at the mouth
* high fevers
* influenza-like symptoms
* loss of consciousness
* loss of memory
* loss of bowel control
* nausea and vomiting
* paralysis
* post-traumatic stress disorder
* respiratory problems
* seizures
* uncontrollable trembling
* vision problems, both temporary and permanent

Convulsions, breathing difficulty, loss of bowel control, paralysis, respiratory problems, and uncontrollable trembling all seem related to the fact that acetyl-choline is the neurotransmitter for muscles and disturbing that wrecks muscle control. I would assume trembling, clenching, cramping and weakness to be possible milder version of that then. Memory loss and other mental problems stem from its role in memory which make sense too. In the case of nerve gases like sarin, death usually occurs from asphyxiation which occurs do to the inability to control the diaphragm, a muscles.

Looking at MrSpud's list and this one gastrointestinal disturbances seem to be likely too at some point.

Uhoh.
TIme to drop my choline intake drastically.

[renfr]

- SLUDGE
- DUMBELLS
- Tension on neck, arms
- Slight headache
- Stomach pain
- Bronchoconstriction

I concur with the analogy that it feels like you were punched on the stomach.

[kache]

Cut my choline intake by 70%. After a couple days of adapting, it definitely became better.
I was apparently taking far too much choline.

[goldsilver]

death

[BioFreak]

funny, I was getting a stiff neck from too much cissus, and and from not supplementing with sulfur and methyl donors while on tyrosine + cofactors + 5-htp... but not (yet) from acetylcholine increasing supps.

I imagine some of these symptoms are descriptive of acetylcholine deficit as well, at least memory loss, fatigue, muscle weakness?

[FreelyFlourish]

I took Huperzine for a while and experience very stiff neck, head aches, derealization, confusion etc still to this day from taking it. (It was in WindMill- Focus Formula) Not sure iif I have excess ACH or what. Would taking piracetam and then feeling better mean my ACH levels were too high?

[Sagasu]

FreelyFlourish, I suspect that piracetam would help you out if your ACh were too high.

This thread has been extremely informative and helpful. Thanks to all involved. I've also come across information also pointing to depression being associated with overly high ACh levels - a topic which has been covered here as well http://www.longecity...oline-and-mood/

[Bron]

I take between 1.5 grams and 3 grams of ALCAR a day. Mainly because I love it. Clears brain fog, tastes good in tea and gives me focus.

Now I was thinking of taking Ortho Mind which has 500mg of citicoline... going to have to once again do some more research before I change anything.

And shit, on top of that I was going to take lecithin... phosphatidylcholine gets hydrolyzed and the choline head group breaks off right?

So I am guessing all of these together would be a real bad idea?
?

[against_all_odds]

400mcg Huperzine A
500mg CDP Choline
500mg Uridine
7.5G Lecithin
1.5G ALCA

Been taking this combo for a while. A few headaches here and there, which may be caused by a variety of things. So much for acetylcholine overload..

[lourdaud]

400mcg Huperzine A
500mg CDP Choline
500mg Uridine
7.5G Lecithin
1.5G ALCA

Been taking this combo for a while. A few headaches here and there, which may be caused by a variety of things. So much for acetylcholine overload..

Eh.. and you're in good mood still?

[against_all_odds]

400mcg Huperzine A
500mg CDP Choline
500mg Uridine
7.5G Lecithin
1.5G ALCA

Been taking this combo for a while. A few headaches here and there, which may be caused by a variety of things. So much for acetylcholine overload..

Eh.. and you're in good mood still?

I would describe my mood as normal. No wild mood swings either way. Will be interesting to see how i feel once i drop a few of these. First stop ALCA.

[PFM18]

To those who had acetylcholine overload or felt like they had too much.

I took way too much of ALCAR+Alpha gpc and I felt terrible. How long did it take for you to feel better after having too much acetylcholine? Anything to do to make it faster?

Edited by PFM18, 20 December 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

To those who had acetylcholine overload or felt like they had too much.

I took way too much of ALCAR+Alpha gpc and I felt terrible. How long did it take for you to feel better after having too much acetylcholine? Anything to do to make it faster?

I shall link this study for perhaps the 9th time...

Summary: The result of acute, severe stress or short-term acetylcholine overload is the same. Gene expression of acetylcholinesterase is upregulated and that of VAChT and ChAT is downregulated, leaving you with a paradoxical long-term deficit of ACh and concomitant cognitive and physical problems. The pathway through which the gene expression changes is c-Fos, a gene which is turned on, generally speaking, as a result of oxidative stress. As for c-Fos inhibitors, I take fisetin with good effect, though there are others: curcumin, gastrodin, mollugin, quercetin.

So to answer your questions directly, it took nearly a year and yes, see above.

Edited by StevesPetRat, 21 December 2014 - 01:05 AM.