39 replies to this topic

[tjcbs]

I've started to suspect that my problems with mood and concentration may be due to an imbalance of excessive acetylcholine over dopamine. All pro-acetylcholine nootropics (racetams, cholines, cholinesterase inhibitors) make me feel like crap, like I'm a brain-dead zombie. Weed, on the other hand, which both inhibits acetylcholine and stimulates dopamine release, has a paradoxical mind clearing effect on me.

Trying to increase dopamine with exogenous chemicals is just fundamentally problematic IMO. I don't think it is possible to do so in a sustanable manner. Thus, I want to try some anticholinergics, and I was wondering what my options were. I have been experimenting with dramamine, with some success (mood elevation, more verbal fluidity/less ponderousness, head feeling "clear"). However, it also has significant sedating effects, probably because it is a strong antihistamine.

So, is there an anticholinergic which is centrally acting, non-sedating, and available w/o a prescription?

Edited by tjcbs, 11 March 2010 - 10:12 PM.

[tlm884]

I've started to suspect that my problems with mood and concentration may be due to an imbalance of excessive acetylcholine over dopamine. All pro-acetylcholine nootropics (racetams, cholines, cholinesterase inhibitors) make me feel like crap, like I'm a brain-dead zombie. Weed, on the other hand, which both inhibits acetylcholine and stimulates dopamine release, has a paradoxical mind clearing effect on me.

Trying to increase dopamine with exogenous chemicals is just fundamentally problematic IMO. I don't think it is possible to do so in a sustanable manner. Thus, I want to try some anticholinergics, and I was wondering what my options were. I have been experimenting with dramamine, with some success (mood elevation, more verbal fluidity/less ponderousness, head feeling "clear"). However, it also has significant sedating effects, probably because it is a strong antihistamine.

So, is there an anticholinergic which is centrally acting, non-sedating, and available w/o a prescription?

Probably a horrible suggestion but plain old Gravol is anticholoregenic. Try it out a for a few days and see if that makes a difference to see if that really is the root of the problem. If it is you may want to do some research into tricyclic antidepressants.

[Lestat Rett]

Scopolamine (hyoscine) is available as tablets OTC, (in the UK at least) under the brand name kwells, also it exists in transdermal patch form.

Try low doses and titrate up.

[KimberCT]

Scopolamine. from experience, has horrible withdrawal. Nausea and dizziness for me.

You'd probably do well with amitriptyline, or ...if you can get it... protriptyline. With TCAs, the norepinephrine reuptake will counter the drowsiness, unlike the OTC stuff.

[Jurence]

Um ... scopolamine is a very potent deleriant with tons of reported deaths, and hospitalizations (mostly just psych ward for 3-4 days). So uh ... yeah. Don't touch that.

Dopamine usually helps people relax and focus. Not all nootropic increase dopamine levels- not sure where you heard that. ACH and Dopamine are good things for studying and concentration. Unless you have hallucinations, muscle spasms, delusions, schizophrenia, or extreme muscle cramps/twitches I *highly* doubt you have high levels of dopamine or ach O_O

[Lestat Rett]

The doses in the OTC preperations of scopolamine here are tiny, less than 1mg, so could allow for accurate titration of a dose, below 0.5mg per tablet IIRC.
Theres a big difference between nutcases (literally) chewing on nightshades, and pharmaceutical products of a known dose.

[Rhcan09]

All pro-acetylcholine nootropics (racetams, cholines, cholinesterase inhibitors) make me feel like crap, like I'm a brain-dead zombie.

I've noticed this too. Are you relatively young? (Mid 20's ?)

I'm generally following the racetam + CDP Choline formula. I used to take Huperzine also (acetylcholinesterase inhibitor). When I cut that out, I actually noticed an increase in mental cognition, and decrease of side effects. And when I used to take Choline Citrate (less powerful choline) instead of CDP, I think that was even better (though there was a gap in time between the two, so the comparison is not scientific)

What I'm getting at here - is that perhaps the traditional wisdom re: needing a choline source isn't always true? Perhaps relatively young individuals can simply go without?

I'm going to try my normal stack without ANY choline source for a few days, and pay attention to the effects.

[tlm884]

I would not reccomend Scopolamine for anyone for cognitive improvment. It is a treatment for IBS and sea sickness and is not suppose to be used in the long term. It is simply used during a flare up of IBS and for sea sickness. I have 10mg tabs of it and I am dumb after taking them. They make you drowsy, you slow down, and your bladder relaxes and you pee a ton.

If you need an anticholoregenic I reccomend a tricyclic. Amytripiline is the staple but there are lots others. http://en.wikipedia....nt#List_of_TCAs

If you want to try something you could try an antihistamine. These generally have anticholerogenic side effects (Chlorphenarimine comes to mind, it also acts as a mild SNRI) (Gravol as well works but dont use in the long term)

[tjcbs]

Thanks for all the replies,

Sounds like Amytripiline would be the best option for me. Although I'm going to order some scopolamine from the uk and try it, as it would seem to be an excellent way to verify my theory, since it is so specific and strong of an anticholnergic. Like I said, I've been trying Glavol(= Dramamine), and I like the way it makes me feel, but it is waayyy too sedating, and definitely not good to take over the long term.

Also, I've found that forskolin may be of use, since it seems is a cholinesterase enhancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16924422

and acetylcholine desensitizer:
http://www.pnas.org/...3/4967.abstract

[tjcbs]

Dopamine usually helps people relax and focus. Not all nootropic increase dopamine levels- not sure where you heard that. ACH and Dopamine are good things for studying and concentration. Unless you have hallucinations, muscle spasms, delusions, schizophrenia, or extreme muscle cramps/twitches I *highly* doubt you have high levels of dopamine or ach O_O

I never said they did, in fact I would say that most effectively lower dopamine, by way of ach stimulation.

I *do* get extreme twitching sometimes in parts of my body, it is very uncomfortable and looks *very* freaky, like a bunch of worms are writhing under my skin. Anyone know what this indicates?

[nito]

lowering choline can give you cognitive enhancement?

[tlm884]

lowering choline can give you cognitive enhancement?

In cases of excess acetylcholine.

[nito]

I happen to have some amitryptiline around. I might try it out since CDP did nothing even though i finished two full bottles. I might have two much cholin in me.

[Imagination]

I've noticed this sort of thing with choline sources, I tend to get an angry feeling all the time, irritated and slightly depressed. I have just bought some cdp choline to see if it was different. I don't want to try yet as I couldn't face a day in work or around friends feeling like that. So need to wait till I have a day to myself.

DMAE is fine though for me which I usually take. Huperzine A is also ok, although there is no negative there are also no positives either in terms of memory enhancement, so I can't see the point in taking it.

Some peoples acetylcholine levels are probably ok, I have never really had memory problems. It is more of a focus issue for me.

I wouldn't try and lower it though, just leave it as it is and don't take a choline source.

[zm3thod]

I've noticed this sort of thing with choline sources, I tend to get an angry feeling all the time, irritated and slightly depressed. I have just bought some cdp choline to see if it was different. I don't want to try yet as I couldn't face a day in work or around friends feeling like that. So need to wait till I have a day to myself.

DMAE is fine though for me which I usually take. Huperzine A is also ok, although there is no negative there are also no positives either in terms of memory enhancement, so I can't see the point in taking it.

I get the problems you describe when I take 200mg of Huperzine A, but not with any choline sources that I have tried (if so, it is much weaker than with Hup A)

[mwasnidge]

As regards excessive acetylcholine: wouldn't it be better to just take acetyl carnitine which would just preserve acetylcholine levels, guard against depletion and help convert choline source foods into acetylcholine, rather than take a separate choline supplement? That way you're almost guaranteeing no excessive or depleted acetylcholine?

[tjcbs]

Here is a very interesting (full text) study, "Acetylcholine and Depression". I recommend everyone on here read it, given the typical belief that anything which boosts acetylcholine will makes you smarter.

http://www.psychosom...nt/36/3/248.pdf

[tryfex]

I Think the best anticholinergic may be Biperiden, it stimulates dopamin pathways and is also anticholinergic
I'm currently on it and it's a nice enjoyable smooth stimulant

Edited by tryfex, 18 March 2010 - 08:45 PM.

[tjcbs]

I Think the best anticholinergic may be Biperiden, it stimulates dopamin pathways and is also anticholinergic
I'm currently on it and it's a nice enjoyable smooth stimulant

Interesting, where did you get it?

[tryfex]

I got a prescription for it. It definitely is the "Best anticholinergic for cognitive enhancement/mood elevation" I know of. Taking several doses the same day can get very recreational

[tjcbs]

I got a prescription for it. It definitely is the "Best anticholinergic for cognitive enhancement/mood elevation" I know of. Taking several doses the same day can get very recreational

How did you get the prescription? I don't think you have parkinsons.

[Animal]

I got a prescription for it. It definitely is the "Best anticholinergic for cognitive enhancement/mood elevation" I know of. Taking several doses the same day can get very recreational

Apparently recreational abuse of Biperiden is associated with semi-permanent cognitive dysfunction. It is not a drug to get high on.

[tjcbs]

I got a prescription for it. It definitely is the "Best anticholinergic for cognitive enhancement/mood elevation" I know of. Taking several doses the same day can get very recreational

Apparently recreational abuse of Biperiden is associated with semi-permanent cognitive dysfunction. It is not a drug to get high on.

Where in the world do you see that?

[tjcbs]

I've been taking Kwells(scopolamine) daily for about 3 weeks now. I don't notice anything resembling cognitive enhancement, however both my mood and my ability to socialize has improved markedly. There is a kind of wittiness which seems almost mandatory to converse casually, at least here in america. Kwells makes it easier for me to be flippant and easy-going, whereas before my interactions always had a leaden, anxious, over-serious quality to them. As far as mood goes, it seems like colors are a little brighter, dark moods are less frequent and last less, and my self-critical tendencies are more easily controlled.

Edited by tjcbs, 13 April 2010 - 08:29 PM.

[Imagination]

Can't you just take something like piracetam to decrease acetylcholine, since people that take it say it is depleting it and have to add a choline source, then surely taking piracetam and not taking a choline source is depleting it.

[tjcbs]

I don't know if thats necessarily true even, that may well be a myth fostered by among other things those bullshit Dean/Morgenthaler books. Anyway piracetam is at best not a very effective agent for lowering ach and has many other effects. It causes noticible negative effects for me,which don't improve over time. I sure which it caused ischroma-style supermania in me, that seems fun.

[chrono]

I think the (unproven) idea is that piracetam increases the brain's usage of ACh, thereby burning through it faster and causing depletion. Sounds like it's a different mechanism than what's being discussed here.

[aunticholinergic]

It is interesting what has been said here about anticholinergics, so I thought I'd better join in.
I have taken Seroxat in the past and have found it to be the better out of all the SSRI's I have been prescribed. I have come to the conclusion it must be its anticholinergic properties rather than the serotonin reuptake inhibition. I agree with the comment below (sorry I can't recall your name-no it's not cognitive impairment!) that there exists in some of us an acetylcholine excess which leads to a dopamine shortage (what antipsychotics do to balance things up in schizophrenia). I am aware that when seroxat is stopped there can be a cholinergic rebound which means sleep, sleep, and more sleep and perhaps a return of depression.
As far as taking anticholinergics go I have taken a small augmenting dose of Procyclidine-say 1.25mg to help-anything more interferes with the memory. The literature suggests Ophenadrine is better (in parkinsons patients) as it causes less memory problems but can cause euphoria in some!
I hope you find this of some use, thanks.

[Animal]

I sure which it caused ischroma-style supermania in me, that seems fun.

Then you are a fucking idiot.

[Logan]

I sure which it caused ischroma-style supermania in me, that seems fun.

Then you are a fucking idiot.

While they may be an idiot, who knows, how can you make that assessment based on them being sure piracetam caused some kind of mania? It sure as hell sent me into a type of mania.

Was it really necessary to call someone a fucking idiot. You sound like you might have some anger issues there Animal. How's that for judging and labeling someone?

Edited by morganator, 23 July 2010 - 04:13 PM.