774 replies to this topic

[platypus]

If the existence of God is proven, please explain to me what changes exactly? Not all atheists value being rational. For example, to answer the question "does God exist", there is only one rational answer, and that is "i don't know". Any other answer is speculation of varying degrees based on either limited information/knowledge or personal feelings/experience.

I have news for you: there's no 100% certainty in anything (100% proof), so don't demand that in questions for the existence of gods. To me it seems pretty damn probable that there are no gods that interfere in people's lives, and that's why I'm atheist-agnostic about the existence of such gods. The question of the existence of invisible creators of the multiverses is left open and it seems we can have absolutely no proof of their existence one way or another. All arguments from philosophy and/or physics are very unconvincing.

Since an atheist isn't even willing to step outside their own ego to try to understand something greater than themselves, it is not likely that they are capable of love.

Dude, the universe or the multiverse is helluvalot bigger than us and atheists see that very clearly. Also, not believing in the existence of gods or afterlife does not in any way prevent spiritualism in the shape of mysticism or pantheism. You sound like you've been bullied to accept a religious position at too young an age, otherwise I don't understand why you're spewing such nonsense. In effect you are saying that "atheists cannot experience beauty" since they ae mentally damaged, LOL.

Belief and agnosticism i can understand, but atheism just doesn't make sense. I think atheism is a mild form of sociopathy.

You must have grown up with believers to have such thoughts. Are you afraid to form beliefs based on incomplete knowledge? You shouldn't be, the quest for "certainty" is for losers

[platypus]

I'm not familiar with the God of the Gaps argument, what is it? I'll have to look it up. However, i'm not really so much arguing that God does in fact exist, as much as i'm saying people should not close themselves off completely to the possibility. To claim that God DEFINITELY DOES NOT EXIST is just as ridiculous as fanatical religious belief imo.

Agreed, everything is probabilistic, see my other post.

[drus]

Platypus, no, i'm not making any arguments from GotG, it's nonsensical to me and i more-or-less disagree with the premise (i read up on it just now). I've never been bullied into believing anything, and i grew up quite liberally actually. Spirituality/religion was never forced on me, i search(ed) my own way, on my own time, and in my searching i have found Christianity and Buddhism to be the two most complete paths. I have found atheism (along with a couple of others that i won't bother mentioning) to be the most destructive and idiotic. To me it seems pretty damn probable that a God does exist, both personal and otherwise. I never said an atheist couldn't experience beauty, i said they could never know true love (as i defined it in a few posts back), they may receive it, but they are incapable of giving it. Anyone can experience beauty because it is relative, love however is not.

Am i afraid to form beliefs on incomplete knowledge? What are talking about? LOL

Anyhow, you sound more agnostic than really atheist. A true hardcore atheist would even bother discussing God, other than to simply state God doesn't exist, and they'd leave it at that. They don't even bother with the subject....period.

[mikeinnaples]

It has been my understanding that one has to be at least open to the possibility of the experience. Perhaps Methodist just isn't your language. I applaud you for at least being able to say that though. Just a word of advice though, if you are looking for scientific proof of God, and you have made your mind up that this is the only proof you'll accept, then you will never find God.

Well what I mentioned before was not exactly scientific proof. I think you are right in saying the god can no more be scientifically proven than love (or hate). The difference is that I can feel the existence of love, I can feel love when it is lost, I can feel love when it is directed towards me, and I can both express love and loved expressed towards me. While I cant literally touch it, I can feel its existence. While I cant scientifically prove that it exists, I know that it is there.

I have never felt that with a god. By the way, which god have we been referring to this whole time?

[mikeinnaples]

. I have found atheism (along with a couple of others that i won't bother mentioning) to be the most destructive and idiotic. To me it seems pretty damn probable that a God does exist, both personal and otherwise. I never said an atheist couldn't experience beauty, i said they could never know true love (as i defined it in a few posts back), they may receive it, but they are incapable of giving it. Anyone can experience beauty because it is relative, love however is not.

There is nothing inherently destructive or idiotic about atheism. I will gladly counter that the very concept of god has wrought far more destruction, death, and idiocy than not believing in a god. When was the last time a war was started by someone in the name of atheism? If anything, I find atheists to value existence and life more than the believer in god (save for buddhism, but that is as much a life philosophy as it is a religion) for the simple fact that there is no belief in an existence after death or eternal life. I think this what captured quite simplistic in the move 'The Invention of Lying'.

Also, saying atheist can never know true love is shortsighted and false. I can counter argue and say that believers of gods can never know true love because are out of touch with reality, but I wont because it is just as silly of a thing to say. As a christian, would you also say that a muslim or a jew will never know true love either?

[drus]

Why would you ask me that about Jews and Muslims? How, in the content of any of my posts, could you have come up with that reasoning? Of course Jews and Muslims are capable of love. My definition of love is essentially the same philosophy that Jesus and Buddha taught. (see post#142) "As a Christian"? Is a Christian somehow supposed to look down on a Jew or Muslim? Is that what Jesus taught? 'Christian', 'Christianity'....these are simply words. They have no real meaning. They are labels, nothing more.
You asked "what God are we referring to this whole time"? The fact that you'd ask this question shows me you have a very limited understanding of what God is. No personal offense meant, but i see why you're an atheist now. Go over all my posts regarding anything having to do with God, religion, spirituality, philosophy, and the like, i've said so much on the subject and i don't feel like retyping/repeating stuff i've already said many times. Let me reiterate - people who do evil acts in the name of God are not representing God, nor do they have even the slightest concept of what God really is. Please stop referencing things like the crusades, or the inquisition, or terrorism, or holy wars, or anything the like, as an argument against God, it's weak and only shows your ignorance. Atheism is not a good idea, God is. You either get it or you don't.

Edited by drus, 21 October 2011 - 07:28 PM.

[platypus]

I have found atheism (along with a couple of others that i won't bother mentioning) to be the most destructive and idiotic.

Why is that?

To me it seems pretty damn probable that a God does exist, both personal and otherwise.

I'm more than 99% sure there are no gods, therefore I would be dishonest if I would consider myself a mere agnostic. Same thing with the existence of ghosts, I'm much more a-ghostic than ag-ghostic.

I never said an atheist couldn't experience beauty, i said they could never know true love (as i defined it in a few posts back), they may receive it, but they are incapable of giving it.

Explain why. Do you realize that is as racist as saying that brown people can never know true love?

Anyone can experience beauty because it is relative, love however is not.

Love is relative too. Everything is relative. Anyone can experience love too and what in the world has beliefs in ghosts, unicorns, flying teapots or gods got to do with it?? You sound irrational.

[drus]

So now you're comparing God to ghosts?! Geezus lol! Atheism isn't a race, neither are 'brown people'. If you really honestly believe love is relative...you are lost......and you have proven my point about atheism. I have no doubt that i sound irrational to you, that doesn't surprise me.

[platypus]

So now you're comparing God to ghosts?! Geezus lol! Atheism isn't a race, neither are 'brown people'. If you really honestly believe love is relative...you are lost......and you have proven my point about atheism. I have no doubt that i sound irrational to you, that doesn't surprise me.

Tell me more about your romantic ideas of Love, where did you learn them? Read all the wrong books?

You sound irrational because you are irrational, and also extremely bigoted.

ps. You forgot to explain why people who don't believe in fairytale-like invisible beings cannot feel love. Also, it would be nice to know what is your evidence for the existence of spiritual beings like ghosts or gods, as you are so sure that such beings exist.

[mikeinnaples]

Why would you ask me that about Jews and Muslims? How, in the content of any of my posts, could you have come up with that reasoning? Of course Jews and Muslims are capable of love.

I think you missed my point in asking you this. Jews and Muslims have thier own concept of what god is that is different than christians. Sure jews and christians share some things, but Jesus is as much a fairy tale to them as Santa Claus is to the average adult. (though I am not Jewish myself, I am married to one). Why would an atheist be any more incapable of love than a muslim/jew/hindu/<insert random belief system> ? This is where your statement starts to fall apart.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 21 October 2011 - 08:11 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I can conceptualize that if the universe were truely infinite, that there is infinite possibility that god exists. Of course, this also means that there is infinite possibility of not only the christian god existing, but the jewish, muslim, etc. versions as well.In fact there is infinite possibility that Cthulhu exists as well in all its' lovecraftian glory as well as the FSM out there somewhere complete with his noodley appendages. It would also mean there is infinite possibility of the easter bunny, santa claus, and the tooth fairy. .......Also, there is infinite possibility that atheists can in fact know true love.

[drus]

LOL, i give up, you win, Platster. I'm an irrational romantic bigot who reads all the wrong books. Now if you'll excuse me, i have to go pick up my girlfriend, hit the gym, and then go get retarded on Dr Retards (that's vodka and Dr Pepper) for all you non-believers lol.

Sorry guys, maybe we can pick this conversation up on monday. peace out

Edited by drus, 21 October 2011 - 08:19 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

So now you're comparing God to ghosts?! Geezus lol! Atheism isn't a race, neither are 'brown people'. If you really honestly believe love is relative...you are lost......and you have proven my point about atheism. I have no doubt that i sound irrational to you, that doesn't surprise me.

Heh, I think you missed his point as much as you missed mine.

[platypus]

Why would an atheist be any more incapable of love than a muslim/jew/hindu/<insert random belief system> ? This is where your statement starts to fall apart.

Frankly I find that accusation disturbing and extremely bigoted. Basically he (?) is dehumanizing atheists and painting them as monsters incapable of human feeling. I have mocked religious people many times but I've never implied that they are not fully human.

[mikeinnaples]

But yeah anyways, this is great discussion ...lets keep it civil. I know its difficult when talking religion or politics because of the passion involved, but lets all try.

[mikeinnaples]

Why would an atheist be any more incapable of love than a muslim/jew/hindu/<insert random belief system> ? This is where your statement starts to fall apart.

Frankly I find that accusation disturbing and extremely bigoted. Basically he (?) is dehumanizing atheists and painting them as monsters incapable of human feeling. I have mocked religious people many times but I've never implied that they are not fully human.

Well it IS disturbing and bigoted. That sentiment is definitely not in accordance with buddhism nor with the teachings of Jesus, which makes it hypocritical as well.

On a side note, I have to laugh whenever I see a 'good' christian (usually a catholic) make bigoted remarks about jews. It is almost comical how quickly they forget that Jesus himself was a jew.


Edit: Sorry about what could be perceived as a stereotype of catholics, but you have to admit the more public figures portraying this behavior are catholics.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 21 October 2011 - 08:31 PM.

[shadowhawk]

On a side note, even if there was a god and the god couldnt be bothered with my request for proof, what good reason do I have to worship a god that ignores me anyways? If a god wants my faith and belief, then that god better provide me a tangible reason for providing it. I could care less about a creator that walks away and ignores her/she/its creations like a cast away toy.

Lots of “what ifs.” If god couldn’t be bothered, why do you think He would want your worship? Worship is an act of love. As a Christian, I worship God because I love Him. God loves me.

How do you know a god loves you? If worshipping is an act of love, shouldnt god in turn worship you as well?

If you have ever had the experience of someone loving you it is both intellectually and emotionally quite wonderful. Let me give my experience, perhaps you have your own. I knew of my now wife for sometime. At first it was just a recognition that she existed, then friendship and finally she asked me what I would think if we took our friendship farther. I thought about it for awhile and said yes. What did she like? What did she dislike? What was Her history? Who was she really? In the Bible this is what it is to “know” someone She initiated it but I came to really know her. I understood her more and more. It was a decision, a point in time but it was also an ongoing discovery This is what it means to have a personal relationship.

Words like, love, adore, respect ,sacrifice, and others describe human love. They also describe our relationship with God. Add to them,”Worship,” which means to reverence. We liturgize - celebrate our relationship with God. We do this because in the Bible, Gods People love God this way. ( see Revelation) Another aspect of the word “worship,” is to kiss. It is the way we as created humans are intimate with God. We kiss god by loving Him in worship. We draw near to Him and He draws near to us. It is intimate.

God receives us as a lover. (See Song of Solomon) He loves us intensely but the relationship is between God as uncreated Deity and us as created humanity. That is the reason there is a deference and we are not liturgized. I am not God and have a relationship as a human, with Him.

[shadowhawk]

Evolution works and makes blueprints.

That is not how evolution works

Evolution works and does not need a designer to create fantastic funtional complexity. This is a fact.

have been in this discussion many times before. Starting of with something dumb, which I am sure you will think so as well, what is evolution?

https://www.youtube....player_embedded

[platypus]

have been in this discussion many times before. Starting of with something dumb, which I am sure you will think so as well, what is evolution?
https://www.youtube....player_embedded

https://secure.wikim.../wiki/Evolution

[mikeinnaples]

If you have ever had the experience of someone loving you it is both intellectually and emotionally quite wonderful. Let me give my experience, perhaps you have your own. I knew of my now wife for sometime. At first it was just a recognition that she existed, then friendship and finally she asked me what I would think if we took our friendship farther. I thought about it for awhile and said yes. What did she like? What did she dislike? What was Her history? Who was she really? In the Bible this is what it is to “know” someone She initiated it but I came to really know her. I understood her more and more. It was a decision, a point in time but it was also an ongoing discovery This is what it means to have a personal relationship.

I am not sure I understand the reason you are posting this. It is almost as if you are trying to teach me what love is? By the way, that isnt only the bible definition or meaning of love. Please don't tell me that you are like Drus and believe that non christians are incapable of knowing love. As much as I enjoy the spirited discussion, that sentiment is quite silly. We are all human and capable of the same feelings regardless of race, religion, and culture.

Words like, love, adore, respect ,sacrifice, and others describe human love. They also describe our relationship with God. Add to them,”Worship,” which means to reverence. We liturgize - celebrate our relationship with God. We do this because in the Bible, Gods People love God this way. ( see Revelation) Another aspect of the word “worship,” is to kiss. It is the way we as created humans are intimate with God. We kiss god by loving Him in worship. We draw near to Him and He draws near to us. It is intimate.

God receives us as a lover. (See Song of Solomon) He loves us intensely but the relationship is between God as uncreated Deity and us as created humanity. That is the reason there is a deference and we are not liturgized. I am not God and have a relationship as a human, with Him.

I spent many years as a practicing christian both believe in the christian god and loving the christian god. I firmly believed god loved me as well. Unfortunately over the years I came to realize that this love was extremely one sided. One sunday morning while in church I had a sudden revelation. I spent all of these years worshipping and putting my faith in a god and loving him, but not once in all those years had I ever received anything back. Not an ounce of love, not a single moment of connection, and not even a single sign that this entity I put my faith in even existed. I asked myself why and mulled over it for weeks. How could the very god that was supposed to love me, ignore me and treat me like a jilted lover. I had an epiphany, It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind and for the very first time I was able to see things clearly and rationally. Either god didnt exist, thus there was nothing to return my love, or god had cast us away as used up play things and couldnt be bothered with us. It was those very christian teaching that led me down the path to rationalize that there was in fact no god, because if god did exist he was supposed to love me back and I never felt, seen, or experienced that love. What other conclusion could I, as a rational and clear thinking person, come to?

After walking both paths I cant help but feel remorse for the years I wasted in delusion, but at the same time I feel so fortunate that I finally woke up. I value life and living so much more now that I understand that there is no fairytale land where dead people go and spend eternity. I live every waking moment like there is no tomorrow and a cherish every day that I am around to experience. This is true joy and what living life is all about. It is so much easier to believe in a god and afterlife ...so much easier to allow yourself to fall under the delusion that you will continue to exist after you die, rather than face the cold hard truth of existence. I firmly understand why so many people want this to be real, so much so that they desperately cling to it with every ounce of thier being. It is a far far easier road to walk and a far easier way to cope with the reality of death.

The unfortunate truth of belief in god and after life is that is allows people to accept death. Rather than going down swinging, kicking and scratching to survive, people allow themselves to slip quietly into the night thanks to the false hope offered by religion. This very fact has slowed down progress in life extension so much, and for that reason alone, I have come to despise religion. Imagine where we would be if every single person knew for a fact that when they died, they would cease to exist. The rational thing to do would be to put every effort into life extension research and continuing existence. Imagine where we would be now without religion getting in the way of research or the very motivation behind that research. Imagine where we would be if instead of blowing themselves and other up in the name of thier god, would be suicide bombers instead devoted themselves just as fanatically to life extension research. Imagine where we would be if right wing christian wackos didnt force thier ideologies on a population by outlawing potentially life saving research. Imagine where we we would be if every single person valued existence and life instead of believing in fairy tales and fantasy lands.

I wish it was true that I when I die the man in the sky would give me a mansion and I would get to see everyone I ever knew and I would be young again. I really really do. This just isn't reality and as a rational person I cannot reasonably believe that it is without a shred of evidence or even a feeling. No trauma caused me to become jaded and lose faith, nothing of the sort; No cliche story. I simply woke up one day and SAW things for what they really were for the first time. No tooth fairy, no easter bunny, and no god ..and I am a far far better person now than I was before because of it. I value life more, I experience love better, and I LIVE.

[drus]

Don't be ridiculous, i've never said non-Christians are incapable of love, that is absolutely preposterous. What i said was atheists are not capable of love, and i wasn't actually serious btw. I made that comment to prove a point about the existence of something that can't really be proven to exist. You've deliberately misrepresented what i said, and it's obvious you have personal issues with Christianity since there are many far less desirable beliefs for you to trash, yet you consistently return to that particular subject. As i've already stated several times, true Christianity isn't about fairy-tales and fantasy lands, Jesus meant it simply as a life-philosophy of selfless love, anyone who really understands true Christianity knows this. You continue to attack things that aren't even real to begin with. I don't see you so much as an atheist, but more a pseudo-atheistic anti-Christian who doesn't really understand what it is he's attacking - that's actually what most people who call themselves atheist actually are. Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that atheism may be a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that atheists may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of Christian philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about atheism, an ideology that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.

[mikeinnaples]

Don't be ridiculous, i've never said non-Christians are incapable of love, that is absolutely preposterous. What i said was atheists are not capable of love, and i wasn't actually serious btw. I made that comment to prove a point about the existence of something that can't really be proven to exist.

I understood that you said what you did to make a point, however I still took it as being how you 'felt' given the rest of the conversation. Reading the sociopathy and reconciliation of love comment again, Looks like I was dead on.

You've deliberately misrepresented what i said, and it's obvious you have personal issues with Christianity since there are many far less desirable beliefs for you to trash, yet you consistently return to that particular subject.

How could I misrepresent what you said when you repeatedly backed up your comments by issuing the same sort of comments backing it up? Hell you did so in this very post I am quoting (see the bottom). Anyways, you are correct on the second. You are 100% absolutely correct that I keep returning to christianity because it IS in fact personal. The reason why I use christianity and continue to return to it is because it is the religion I have direct experience with and lived much of my life practicing. If I had been a muslim I would be speaking of that instead.

Speaking of personal viewpoints, I personally would not refer to it as 'less desirable' because to me all religion is one and the same, a means of controlling the masses. It does raise an interesting question though. What do you as a good christian refer to as 'less desirable' religions?

As i've already stated several times, true Christianity isn't about fairy-tales and fantasy lands, Jesus meant it simply as a life-philosophy of selfless love, anyone who really understands true Christianity knows this.

True christianity does involve the belief in the concept of heaven and hell as physical places? Christianity doesn't involve the belief in angels, miracles, the wrath of god, ressurection, etc? Perhaps in your personal belief of christianity, this is all conceptual, but I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt from personal experience as a christian that these beliefs are not purely conceptual to ALL forms of christianity. I stand by my fairy tale and fantasy land statement, even though I do agree with you that there is much much more to the religion.

I don't see you so much as an atheist, but more a pseudo-atheistic anti-Christian who doesn't really understand what it is he's attacking - that's actually what most people who call themselves atheist actually are.

I am not anti-christian any more than I am anti-semetic or anti-muslim. I use christianity as an example constantly because it is the religion I was raised into and am most familiar with. Of course I will refer to something I am familiar with more often. I am not sure if your comment was meant as an insult, but to be honest I am not even sure if I would label myself a true atheist. An anti-theist sure.

Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that atheism may be a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that atheists may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of Christian philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about atheism, an ideology that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.

This is absolutely silly. What you are basically saying is that if you don't believe in god you are a sociopath. It is not only a bigoted remark, but a highly offensive one to anyone that doesnt share your belief system. What are your views on Jewish people? My wife is jewish and doesnt believe in hell. Should I suspect a slew of anti-semetic remarks from you?

Let me reiterate - people who do evil acts in the name of God are not representing God, nor do they have even the slightest concept of what God really is.

Is bigotry 'evil' or 'good'? Given the impact that bigotry has had on the world, I would venture to say it is is inherently evil.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 24 October 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[drus]

Mike, that's the second time you've tried to bait me with anti-semtism. Why? I don't follow your line of reasoning on the anti-Jewish thing. I am not anti-semitic. Me, a 'good Christian'?! I can assure you i am not, it's constantly a work in progress, and by-far the toughest challenge anyone could ever face, especially given the present nature of our world. You ask what i think are 'less desirable religions'. My response is this - i said 'beliefs', not necessarily religions, and my answer is any belief system that doesn't put selflessness/love as it's core value/teaching. Anyhow, let's not use the term 'atheism' or 'atheist' anymore, it doesn't fully encapsulate what i mean when i use the term. What i really mean when i say 'atheism/atheist' is 'materialism/materialist', and egoism as it pertains to ethics/morals. Although i suspect these concepts probably gave rise to atheism or vice-versa. To say that materialism or egoism may lend themselves to sociopathy is not as unreasonable or silly as you insist. I can understand why you keep referring to Christianity, i apologize, it was not my intention to sound as though i were trying to insult you, because i wasn't. The Christianity that you keep referring to is false Christianity, that is a mythology (Roman and otherwise) that has nothing to do with what Jesus of Nazareth taught. If you have never explored any other religion/spirituality, how can you be so sure of your current stance on the issue. I agree, bigotry is not a good thing. Reasonable discernment, however, is.

Edited by drus, 24 October 2011 - 08:18 PM.

[brokenportal]

There could be a god. It doesn't seem likely, at this point, from all we know (as far as I know about all we know). Even though it seems really unlikely, we still cant count it out, because things could change, and we may start to see why it may be more likely than not. I look at things on a sliding scale of what you can reason that you should be able to bet a little or a lot on, and much less so in terms of "this is definitely how it is" or "this is definitely how it isn't", though I do think there are probably at least a few absolutes that we know we can assert at this point.

As for an existence of god, you can show a lot of evidence for a lot of things, but that doesnt necessarily mean you should lend it a lot of weight, you have to take the totality of the scenario into account. For example, there is a lot of evidence for similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy's assassinations. For all of those similarities though, do we conclude then that there was something going on, like lets say, some sort of conspiracy? I don't think we lend that a lot of weight, we shouldn't be willing to place a very big bet on that. Same thing with the notion of god.

There could be a god, gods, no god, or something else. Let's get indefinite life extension done so we can open up the kind of time we will need to have a shot at knowing the answer to more questions like that.

[mikeinnaples]

Mike, that's the second time you've tried to bait me with anti-semtism. Why? I don't follow your line of reasoning on the anti-Jewish thing. I am not anti-semitic.

My point was not to call you an anti-semite, I have no idea if you are or aren't. In context of what I said, 'why' I said what I did was to point out that making bigoted statement about people for lack of belief is no different than making bigoted statements about different beliefs. In fact, on can argue that not believing in god is a 'belief'.

What i really mean when i say 'atheism/atheist' is 'materialism/materialist', and egoism as it pertains to ethics/morals. Although i suspect these concepts probably gave rise to atheism or vice-versa. To say that materialism or egoism may lend themselves to sociopathy is not as unreasonable or silly as you insist.

I am not sure I buy that atheism is materialism and egoism anymore than you would buy me saying that christianity is materialism and egoism due to the example provided by TV evangelists. It would be silly for me to say something like that as much as I feel its silly for you to say the same thing about lack of belief in a god.

I can understand why you keep referring to Christianity, i apologize, it was not my intention to sound as though i were trying to insult you, because i wasn't. The Christianity that you keep referring to is false Christianity

A southern baptist can apply the term false christianity to a methodist who can in turn apply it to a lutheran who can in turn apply it to a catholic ....rinse and repeat. The underlying belief in god and jesus are mostly the same and they share many of the same values, but they all interpret things differently and in some cases even the applications of those values are grossly different. Because of these different interpretations, we can agree that there are numerous differences between the different facets of christianity. So which one is right and which one is wrong? An impossible question I know.... Christianity cannot even agree among itself as to what is right.

If you have never explored any other religion/spirituality, how can you be so sure of your current stance on the issue.

I adopt portions of buddhism into my every day life as well as portions of christianity and judaism. However, this is in the philosophical (and cultural is regards to judaism due to my wife's influences) sense and is not rooted in the actual religious beliefs. I don't need to experience every religion to know that belief in a god is not for me. To me it is a matter of rationality. We constantly hear stories about people who found jesus and drastically changed thier lives for the better. Well I once believed in jesus and then I found reason.

[mikeinnaples]

Drus, I am not trying to bait you or fight with you, but I want you to understand that if you were to replace 'atheists' in some of your comments with 'jews','blacks',etc. and repeat them, most people would think you were racist or anti-semetic ...and rightfully so.

It was as if you'd said: Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that judaism may be a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that jews may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of Christian philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about jews, an ideology that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.


Or as if you'd said: Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that blacks have a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that blacks may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of White philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about blacks, a race that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.

Edited by Shannon Vyff, 26 October 2011 - 05:31 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

There could be a god, gods, no god, or something else. Let's get indefinite life extension done so we can open up the kind of time we will need to have a shot at knowing the answer to more questions like that.

Rationality ....I like it.

[shadowhawk]

If you have ever had the experience of someone loving you it is both intellectually and emotionally quite wonderful. Let me give my experience, perhaps you have your own. I knew of my now wife for sometime. At first it was just a recognition that she existed, then friendship and finally she asked me what I would think if we took our friendship farther. I thought about it for awhile and said yes. What did she like? What did she dislike? What was Her history? Who was she really? In the Bible this is what it is to “know” someone She initiated it but I came to really know her. I understood her more and more. It was a decision, a point in time but it was also an ongoing discovery This is what it means to have a personal relationship.

I am not sure I understand the reason you are posting this. It is almost as if you are trying to teach me what love is? By the way, that isnt only the bible definition or meaning of love. Please don't tell me that you are like Drus and believe that non christians are incapable of knowing love. As much as I enjoy the spirited discussion, that sentiment is quite silly. We are all human and capable of the same feelings regardless of race, religion, and culture.

Words like, love, adore, respect ,sacrifice, and others describe human love. They also describe our relationship with God. Add to them,”Worship,” which means to reverence. We liturgize - celebrate our relationship with God. We do this because in the Bible, Gods People love God this way. ( see Revelation) Another aspect of the word “worship,” is to kiss. It is the way we as created humans are intimate with God. We kiss god by loving Him in worship. We draw near to Him and He draws near to us. It is intimate.

God receives us as a lover. (See Song of Solomon) He loves us intensely but the relationship is between God as uncreated Deity and us as created humanity. That is the reason there is a deference and we are not liturgized. I am not God and have a relationship as a human, with Him.

I spent many years as a practicing christian both believe in the christian god and loving the christian god. I firmly believed god loved me as well. Unfortunately over the years I came to realize that this love was extremely one sided. One sunday morning while in church I had a sudden revelation. I spent all of these years worshipping and putting my faith in a god and loving him, but not once in all those years had I ever received anything back. Not an ounce of love, not a single moment of connection, and not even a single sign that this entity I put my faith in even existed. I asked myself why and mulled over it for weeks. How could the very god that was supposed to love me, ignore me and treat me like a jilted lover. I had an epiphany, It was like a veil had been lifted from my mind and for the very first time I was able to see things clearly and rationally. Either god didnt exist, thus there was nothing to return my love, or god had cast us away as used up play things and couldnt be bothered with us. It was those very christian teaching that led me down the path to rationalize that there was in fact no god, because if god did exist he was supposed to love me back and I never felt, seen, or experienced that love. What other conclusion could I, as a rational and clear thinking person, come to?

After walking both paths I cant help but feel remorse for the years I wasted in delusion, but at the same time I feel so fortunate that I finally woke up. I value life and living so much more now that I understand that there is no fairytale land where dead people go and spend eternity. I live every waking moment like there is no tomorrow and a cherish every day that I am around to experience. This is true joy and what living life is all about. It is so much easier to believe in a god and afterlife ...so much easier to allow yourself to fall under the delusion that you will continue to exist after you die, rather than face the cold hard truth of existence. I firmly understand why so many people want this to be real, so much so that they desperately cling to it with every ounce of thier being. It is a far far easier road to walk and a far easier way to cope with the reality of death.

The unfortunate truth of belief in god and after life is that is allows people to accept death. Rather than going down swinging, kicking and scratching to survive, people allow themselves to slip quietly into the night thanks to the false hope offered by religion. This very fact has slowed down progress in life extension so much, and for that reason alone, I have come to despise religion. Imagine where we would be if every single person knew for a fact that when they died, they would cease to exist. The rational thing to do would be to put every effort into life extension research and continuing existence. Imagine where we would be now without religion getting in the way of research or the very motivation behind that research. Imagine where we would be if instead of blowing themselves and other up in the name of thier god, would be suicide bombers instead devoted themselves just as fanatically to life extension research. Imagine where we would be if right wing christian wackos didnt force thier ideologies on a population by outlawing potentially life saving research. Imagine where we we would be if every single person valued existence and life instead of believing in fairy tales and fantasy lands.

I wish it was true that I when I die the man in the sky would give me a mansion and I would get to see everyone I ever knew and I would be young again. I really really do. This just isn't reality and as a rational person I cannot reasonably believe that it is without a shred of evidence or even a feeling. No trauma caused me to become jaded and lose faith, nothing of the sort; No cliche story. I simply woke up one day and SAW things for what they really were for the first time. No tooth fairy, no easter bunny, and no god ..and I am a far far better person now than I was before because of it. I value life more, I experience love better, and I LIVE.

What a bad experience. I have had some bad times as well, just responded differently.

I responded to your previous post and questions. Just read it again and perhaps you will understand it. I don’t know you but assumed you would know what I was talking about when comparing human love and how it is for a theist like me to love and be loved by God.

Not all people are capable or do love. That is not silly and indeed is sad. Examples are endless. I do not find it suprising to find some people do not love each other or God.

[shadowhawk]

have been in this discussion many times before. Starting of with something dumb, which I am sure you will think so as well, what is evolution?
https://www.youtube....player_embedded

https://secure.wikim.../wiki/Evolution

Thanks. I have that bookmark in my "Define Evolution," folder.

[drus]

Drus, I am not trying to bait you or fight with you, but I want you to understand that if you were to replace 'atheists' in some of your comments with 'jews','blacks',etc. and repeat them, most people would think you were racist or anti-semetic ...and rightfully so.



It was as if you'd said: Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that judaism may be a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that jews may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of Christian philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about jews, an ideology that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.


Or as if you'd said: Anyhow, I stand by my opinion that blacks have a mild form of sociopathy, which is not healthy, and which in turn may lend credence to the possibility that blacks may at least have serious issues with both the expression and acceptance of selfless love (selfless love is at the heart of White philosophy btw). Judging from everything i've ever read and/or know about blacks, a race that is so completely materialist and solipsist in nature will naturally have problems reconciling itself with Love, this is undeniable.

Wtf?!?!? I didn't write/type/say any of this stuff!!!!! Someone has falsely and fraudulently quoted me here some how. These statements were not made by me!

Edited by Shannon Vyff, 26 October 2011 - 05:32 PM.