13 replies to this topic

[Heinstein]

I've been researching about nootropics for a while now and the more I learn about each one of them, the more concerning possible side effects I find, even though they are called 'Nootropics'.

A good example is the 2 nootropics that are popular and considered the safest like ALCAR and Piracetam. Even they have concerning side effects. I've heard so many positive effects from ALCAR but it also has concerning side effects which are:
1. Could cause Under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism)
2. Could promote brain tumor

Even Piracetam the grandfather of nootropics is not completely safe with it's speculation to play part in brain tumor even though it's probably been researched longer than caffeine. So two of the nootropic that's considered safest by longecity users still has concerning side effects

But Caffeine like in coffee and tea on the other hand which is been used by majority of the population has an immediate effect like an mild form of amphetamine and has no serious side effects when used in the safe dosage. In fact they make you live longer. The ONLY concern is that:
1. reduces bone mass

which can be easily countered by drinking more milk and taking Vit D. And thousands of people drink caffeine everyday and don't get any serious side effects.

I always thought that the more subtle the nootropic is, the less serious side effect you get but caffeine seems to be a very effective nootropic for it's minimal side effect. I am hoping that caffeine isn't the only most worthy 'nootropic' out there, but right now from my online research it seems to be that way. I cannot find any other nootropic that's as effective AND safe as caffeine. I know that Caffeine isn't really considered a 'Nootropic' but with the amount of benefits you get(antioxidants, increased productivity) over the minimal risk it's probably better than any of the 'Nootropics'.

I've tried many nootropics and so far I've been dissapointed with:

• Bacopa and Ginkgo combo (Swisse and Blackmores) - taken at early night caused insomia, taken at late evening made me disorganised, carelessness, anxiolytic, thoughtful and caused vivid dreams.
• ALCAR at 500mg(PrimaForce) - felt pretty much nothing other than tiny energy increase. Stopped taking due to no conclusive long-term effect study.
• L-Tyrosine 500mg - Boosted mood for 1 hr followed big crash for 3 hours and lasted pretty much whole afternoon.

This is what I currently take that's been working for me for over 2 years. And will continue taking them as they are safe:

• Green tea - I currently only drink genmaicha since it's cheap plus they work better than Green tea bag or powder.
• Coffee - instant
• Fish oil - I take fish oil since I don't eat much fish. Can't feel any effect from it but it's essential to one's diet and brain health.

I sometimes mix green tea and Coffee to get more caffeine boost but with less crash and ofcourse I try to eat healthy, sleep and exercise daily.

So I think with the current understanding of nootropics drugs. The average joe should just stick with Caffeine as a nootropic drug and have good diet, exercise, sleep and other external method for risk free life long brain boost. Do you agree or disagree? I would like to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

Edited by Heinstein, 21 May 2011 - 06:35 AM.

[nezxon]

I've been researching about nootropics for a while now and the more I learn about each one of them, the more concerning possible side effects I find, even though they are called 'Nootropics'.

A good example is the 2 nootropics that are popular and considered the safest like ALCAR and Piracetam. Even they have concerning side effects. I've heard so many positive effects from ALCAR but it also has concerning side effects which are:
1. Could cause Under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism)
2. Could promote brain tumor

Was it just that post that convinced you ALCAR causes brain tumors or was there another source of information you came across? Same question about Piracetam.

Caffeine Stops Chemo Therapy

For example, some research indicates that patients receiving chemotherapy may want to limit caffeine intake because of the possibility that caffeine causes cancer cells to become more drug resistant to chemotherapy agents.

Caffeine Causes Cancer

Perhaps you'll want to rethink your position on caffeine being safe. I'm okay with the risks but you seem to be at least somewhat more cautious.

[Gecko]

I've been researching about nootropics for a while now and the more I learn about each one of them, the more concerning possible side effects I find, even though they are called 'Nootropics'.

A good example is the 2 nootropics that are popular and considered the safest like ALCAR and Piracetam. Even they have concerning side effects. I've heard so many positive effects from ALCAR but it also has concerning side effects which are:
1. Could cause Under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism)
2. Could promote brain tumor

Even Piracetam the grandfather of nootropics is not completely safe with it's speculation to play part in brain tumor even though it's probably been researched longer than caffeine. So two of the nootropic that's considered safest by longecity users still has concerning side effects

Just to point out if you actually follow those links, it seems that you're basing your assumption that piracetam and alcar can cause brain tumours on one man's experience. Furthermore, he is not exactly a typical individual as he describes:

"motion sickness so severe I would sometimes vomit riding in the car; and neuromuscular balance and co-ordination problems that would frequently cause me to trip going upstairs, or even over my own feet. By the time I reached college, I had suffered several head injuries, had suffered an explosion and episodes of chemical poisoning in my home chemistry lab, and had almost died in hospital from acute alcohol poisoning"

and considering that he states: "I was taking 50 nutritional supplements per day,.... Since 1971, I have taken over 1,000,000 nutritional supplement pills" it certainly seems a considerable leap to attribute his brain tumour to either piracetam or alcar. That being said, I have heard something about alcar being involved with free radical formation at higher doses but haven't had time to read into it yet.

Personally I enjoy caffeine in moderation, but it has been demonstrated to be addictive and involve tolerance, so I do question if the subjective experience of benefit is actually the result of reducing the impairment caused by withdrawal.

[Raptor87]

Everything causes cancer. Everything has side-effects! You can be afraid and paranoid of everything, just like my aunt! When I think of it, she really isn´t living her life. Besides you can´t test something once and make an opinion on a first time basis if it really isn´t making you feel crap. You need to evaluate what you are experiencing and evaluate your test over a period of time.

[Ichoose2live]

List of PKC activators

Protein kinase C (PKC) is a family of serine- and threonine-specific protein kinases that can be activated by calcium and second messenger diacylglycerol. PKC family members phosphorylate a wide variety of protein targets and are known to be involved in diverse cellular signaling pathways. PKC also serve as major receptors for phorbol esters, a class of tumor promoters. Each member of the PKC family has a specific expression profile and is believed to play distinct roles in cells. The protein encoded by this gene is one of the PKC family members. This protein kinase is expressed solely in the brain and spinal cord and its localization is restricted to neurons. It has been demonstrated that several neuronal functions, including long term potentiation (LTP) and long term depression (LTD), specifically require this kinase. Knockout studies in mice also suggest that this kinase may be involved in neuropathic pain development. Defects in this protein have been associated with neurodegenerative disorder spinocerebellar ataxia-14 (SCA14). [provided by RefSeq]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....&list_uids=5582

read this: http://cancerres.aac...ent/48/1/1.long

[nezxon]

I spent the last few hours studying that information and from what I see, ALCAR and Piracetam (and all the racetams) definitely cause brain tumors. I'm surprised we haven't developed a drug to suppress PKC activity entirely yet, that seems like some bad mojo there.

I'm sold, most of these nootropics are far too dangerous. I just wanted a little cognitive assistance, not asbestos pills. Why is brain tumor proliferation so underreported (if not outright ignored) in many of these studies?

Now that I understand how dangerous ALCAR, Piracetam, Aniracetam, Pramiracetam, Oxiracetam, Vinpocetine, Centrophenoxine, DMAE, choline, bacopa, lion's mane, and Sulbutiamine are, I'll see if I can find a way to safely dispose of what I have left (I don't want to risk someone else coming into contact with any of it).

[Raptor87]

Yaaaawn!

[Wondherb]

I spent the last few hours studying that information and from what I see, ALCAR and Piracetam (and all the racetams) definitely cause brain tumors. I'm surprised we haven't developed a drug to suppress PKC activity entirely yet, that seems like some bad mojo there.

I'm sold, most of these nootropics are far too dangerous. I just wanted a little cognitive assistance, not asbestos pills. Why is brain tumor proliferation so underreported (if not outright ignored) in many of these studies?

Now that I understand how dangerous ALCAR, Piracetam, Aniracetam, Pramiracetam, Oxiracetam, Vinpocetine, Centrophenoxine, DMAE, choline, bacopa, lion's mane, and Sulbutiamine are, I'll see if I can find a way to safely dispose of what I have left (I don't want to risk someone else coming into contact with any of it).

What's dangerous about DMAE, choline, lion's mane, and bacopa?

[Gecko]

I spent the last few hours studying that information and from what I see, ALCAR and Piracetam (and all the racetams) definitely cause brain tumors. I'm surprised we haven't developed a drug to suppress PKC activity entirely yet, that seems like some bad mojo there.

I'll admit I haven't read all that yet, but from the abstract presented there, just under the part about how PKC acts as a receptor for tumour promoting phorbol esters is this:

"It has been demonstrated that several neuronal functions, including long term potentiation (LTP) and long term depression (LTD), specifically require this kinase"

Hence I imagine anything that completely suppressed PKC activity would potentially prevent LTP and leave you unable to learn, among other potential issues. Surely, as with almost anything, it's necessary or beneficial within limits and excesses may cause issues? I do intend to read the whole thing when I've got some time to see what's got you so convinced though.

[Ellipticality]

In my opinion I don't think caffeine is very healthy at all, never have, sure its "safe" but really that means nothing. Everything you consume is deemed safe by someone, but that list includes tons of crazy chemicals and stuff that would kill you easily if consuming a lot.

There have been deaths due to caffeine. Have there been any from piracetam? Enough said.

[dupez]

Keep in mind Piracetam has been around for decades, and it's a prescription drug in Europe. By saying it could promote brain tumors "probably" conflicts with many research papers. I'd like to see some quotes from the research you found, and your reasoning. From the original topic about brain tumors, there's no proof that it was from nootropics.

[Sophomoric]

Here: http://smartnootropi...ource=BP_recent I briefly describe the oxiditive stress mechanism of ALCAR. However, a combination of ALCAR/R-ALA produced some astounding regenerative and life-elongative results in rodents.

See: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16366737

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11854487

Edited by Sophomoric, 13 June 2011 - 12:32 PM.

[platypus]

Caffeine is not a very clean stimulant, Modafinil is clearly better with less of a body load.

[aLurker]

I've tried a few kinds of cereal and I didn't like any of them better than my usual cornflakes, therefore all other kinds of cereal are generally worthless to me and others.