2626 replies to this topic

[abelard lindsay]

I've been tweaking the CILTEP approach for a while now, and I can honestly say that the latest addition of Intermittent fasting + ALCAR has multiplied the effect.
Insulin has a strong negative effect on cAMP. And the CILTEP-effect while running on ketones in addition to glucose is just amazing... Indescribable.
I feel that it has given me the potential to learn absolutely anything I want. My focus just never stops. It's almost ridiculous (today I studied for 10 hours... with one break).

This was pretty much my month with Zembrin/CILTEP. I was doing four coursera courses that were hard (Algorithms II, Crypto, Scala, Big Data) and basically that's all I was doing. My brain was saying, "why should I do anything but study? It's so much fun!" After I took some time off the stack after finals the whole thing fell apart as I returned to normal speed. One thing I started to notice on the Zembrin stack was that I started to remember really unimportant details about day-to-day things. It was kind of amusing in a way. I would take hikes on the weekends and when I took the same hike two weekends in a row it was as if I could play the last weekend's hike back in my mind during the second hike like it was a video. I picked Zembrin/CILTEP back up again and the effects are comparable. I have even started up on the Coursera studying binge again.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 28 June 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[rikelme]

This was pretty much my month with Zembrin/CILTEP. I was doing four coursera courses that were hard (Algorithms II, Crypto, Scala, Big Data) and basically that's all I was doing. My brain was saying, "why should I do anything but study? It's so much fun!" After I took some time off the stack after finals the whole thing fell apart as I returned to normal speed. One thing I started to notice on the Zembrin stack was that I started to remember really unimportant details about day-to-day things. It was kind of amusing in a way. I would take hikes on the weekends and when I took the same hike two weekends in a row it was as if I could play the last weekend's hike back in my mind during the second hike like it was a video. I picked Zembrin/CILTEP back up again and the effects are comparable. I have even started up on the Coursera studying binge again.

I love Coursera; attended 3 classes (all related to Softw Eng too). I wish I had some more free time for it, but with full time job and wife to "care" of, I just can't. Only if I could function with 3 hours of sleep or less

Abelard, do you mind to share the brand of Zembrin you're using? Sorry if you already posted - I missed it. I'm considering to give it a try and would like to purchase a brand that has been shown to work.

Thanks!

[cat@]

Are you talking about multiplication mentally or on paper?

Panax ginseng has some evidence to back it as enhancing mental math speed, as well as increasing cAMP. I've found it very useful for the former.

Panax ginseng does feel great. My issue with it is the papers indicating that it induces PDE-3 and/or PDE-4. (in rats, though)

Apparently, activated forms of B-vitamins are highly synergistic with this stack!
(referring to NADH, Methylcobalamin, P-5-P)
Anyone mind trying SAMe with it? I haven't got any available.

Right now, I'm experiencing the most incredible nootropic effects ever with the following approach:
*Intermittent fasting, fuelled by ALCAR. I've never been able to manage IF until I started taking alcar during the fast. Now, it's absolutely amazing.
I take ALCAR as needed to fuel fatty acid oxidation and other ATP-producing processes during the fast. Take ALCAR immediately upon waking up.
*Zembrin (1x), Artichoke (1-2x500mg), Forskolin (5-20 mg active extract, sometimes I'm more sensitive to it). Take at waking up.
*Caffeine (I use tea as a source, due to all the synergistic substances present, such as COMT-inhibitors, minerals, b-vitamins, pleasant amino acids. Pure caffeine doesn't give me the same effect).
*Tyrosine (If needed. I try to avoid it, since it can make me kind of manic, and/or irritable). Wait with dosing tyrosine. Add it if you don't feel anything.
*Allosteric modulators, such as Piracetam and Phenylpiracetam.

I've been tweaking the CILTEP approach for a while now, and I can honestly say that the latest addition of Intermittent fasting + ALCAR has multiplied the effect.
Insulin has a strong negative effect on cAMP. And the CILTEP-effect while running on ketones in addition to glucose is just amazing... Indescribable.
I feel that it has given me the potential to learn absolutely anything I want. My focus just never stops. It's almost ridiculous (today I studied for 10 hours... with one break).

If you attempt this approach, please report feedback. To start the IF-approach, you'll need ALCAR. Whenever my blood sugar drops, it just means I need to refill with ALCAR because my metabolism is slowing down. I probably dose 500 mg every 2 hours while fasting, if I'm expending a lot of energy.
The perfect thing about alcar is that, it's just a nutrient! Meaning, no tolerance.

With this approach, I almost feel like I can close this chapter of my life on nootropics and just maintain this protocol. It's perfect!
However, I feel a slowly increasing sense of lethargy in the morning. Nothing serious. It just means I'll need one day off soon.

Could you please describe what type of Intermittent fasting? Is it a juice fast? Green smoothie fast? Water and tea fast? Do you go a whole day on and whole day off? I'm contemplating doing the 5:2 diet (feast 5 days, fast 2) and this just might fit in - feast 1 day, fast 1 day.

[xsiv1]

Well, I thought I had found someone who was going to market the CILTEP stack but it looks like they've just mentioned it on their site and don't offer the product as an all-in-one supplement. Anyone have positive experiences with PeakNootropics?

http://peaknootropic...p-stack-theory/

[Erstwhile]

Well, I thought I had found someone who was going to market the CILTEP stack but it looks like they've just mentioned it on their site and don't offer the product as an all-in-one supplement. Anyone have positive experiences with PeakNootropics?

http://peaknootropic...p-stack-theory/

I haven't tried their stuff, but I'm somewhat disturbed by the complete lack of attribution to abelard or to this forum on their CILTEP page..

[looongevity]

I take 50 micrograms per day of the acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitor, Huperzine A ; with Huperzine A, I have experienced very positive effects (better recall, and increased concentration).

I have been thinking about starting a CILTEP stack (specifically, Artichoke Extract, Forskolin, and L-Tyrosine). As I understand (from reading this thread and other resources), the Artichoke Extract is for PDE4 inhibition, the Forskolin is for increasing cAMP, and L-Tyrosine is for dopaminergic purposes. Forskolin also has the additional benefit of increasing the activity of, or the level of, Tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), the rate-limiting enzyme in catecholamine synthesis.

However, Forskolin activates AChE promoter and up-regulates its expression (according to post #61 by health_nutty in this thread – that post also supplies a link to an article).

I am concerned that if I take forskolin, it could counteract (or nullify) the very-beneficial-to-me AChE inhibition that Huperzine A is providing.

Thoughts?

Hmn. IF artichoke is for PDE4 inhibition, then luteolin should work quite well, being a potent inhibitor of PDE4. So too should common mullein, Verbascum thapsus, which has been used as an asthma medication and for lung support.

Heath_nutty is usually well informed, but he may be wrong on Forskolin's action in this case. I'd double check his reference.

Thank you Max Watt for enlightening me on luteolin and mullein as potent PDE4 inhibitors.

Regarding forskolin as an AChE promoter, I double-checked health_nutty's posted reference. Here is the abstract:

Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry
October 2006, Volume 290, Issue 1-2, pp 23-32

Title:
Forskolin, an inducer of cAMP, up-regulates acetylcholinesterase expression and protects against organophosphate exposure in neuro 2A cells

Abstract:
Bioscavenger prophylactic therapy using purified human acetylcholinesterase (AChE) or butylcholinesterase (BChE) is a promising treatment for future protection against chemical warfare nerve agent exposure. Potential immune response due to the complex structure of cholinesterases, mutations, post-translational modifications, and genetic variation is a limiting factor against purified enzyme therapy. We investigated an alternative bioscavenger approach using Forskolin, an inducer of intracellular cyclic AMP (cAMP), which activates AChE promoter and up-regulates its expression. A mouse neuronal cell line, Neuro 2A, was treated with various doses of Forskolin and analysis of the expressed enzyme indicates that the AChE activity was significantly increased in cells exposed to repeated administration of the drug every other day for 7–10 days. Cholinesterase enzyme assays showed that the enzyme activity was increased approximately 2-fold for the extracellular enzyme and 3-fold for the intracellular enzyme. The optimal dose found for extracellular enzyme production was 12–24 μM Forskolin, while the optimal dose for intracellular was 12 μM. In parallel with the rise in the AChE level, the morphology of Forskolin-treated cells showed neurite growth with increasing doses. Forskolin treatment protects Neuro 2A cells from Diisopropylflurophophate (DFP), a surrogate of the organophosphate chemical warfare agents soman and sarin, induced toxicity in Neuro 2A cells. These results indicate that transcriptional inducers, such as Forskolin, can sufficiently up-regulate cellular AChE production and protect cells against organophosphate toxicity.
----------------------------------------------------

Thus, it looks like health_nutty was spot on. And that makes me concerned that if I take forskolin, it could counteract (or nullify) the very-beneficial-to-me AChE inhibition that Huperzine A is providing.

[MasterHerb]

I have a theory on why this stack has no effect on me. Chung was referencing how insulin has a negative impact on camp.....so I am going to get my glucose levels checked, and start taking a natural form of cinnamon called ceylon for a few weeks and then try this stack one more time to see if it makes any difference. I am on the heavy side and possibly have borderline high glucose levels, so that may be why this stack had no effect on me. Any diabetics have success with this stack?

[usernameiuse]

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).


Plan to try: theobromine (from cacao) in place of caffeine. Caffeine can have some nasty sides for me, I really don't Luke the vasoconstriction for my workouts, and I hate being dependent on it. So I'm looking to use caffeine as more of an occasional thing, like when I didn't get enough sleep.

Anyone have any comments on these variations? I've heard mixed reviews on theobromine as a stimulant.

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).


Plan to try: theobromine (from cacao) in place of caffeine. Caffeine can have some nasty sides for me, I really don't Luke the vasoconstriction for my workouts, and I hate being dependent on it. So I'm looking to use caffeine as more of an occasional thing, like when I didn't get enough sleep.

Anyone have any comments on these variations? I've heard mixed reviews on theobromine as a stimulant.

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).


Plan to try: theobromine (from cacao) in place of caffeine. Caffeine can have some nasty sides for me, I really don't Luke the vasoconstriction for my workouts, and I hate being dependent on it. So I'm looking to use caffeine as more of an occasional thing, like when I didn't get enough sleep.

Anyone have any comments on these variations? I've heard mixed reviews on theobromine as a stimulant.

[Perception-Is-Reality]

theobromine may be classified as a stimulant however i have never felt any stimulant like effects from it. It is a vasodialator and pheraphs calm mood booster but thats about it.

[xsiv1]

I wouldn't bother with theobromine either. There are far safer stimulants out there that don't necessarily act on the heart like this one. It's a vasodilator, but it has diuretic properties as well so you'll always need to ensure that you're electrolytes are in balance. I'm not sure to what extent it exerts it's diuretic effect though, especially when compared to caffeine. Have you considered Sulbutiamine?

[chung_pao]

"In vivo, PDE4 inhibition in FSH-primed rats resulted in ovulation, indicating that the PDE4 inhibitors can substitute for LH and human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) in this process."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15448112
Guess I'm gonna start ovulating.

I happened upon this hypothesis because I noticed a remarkable increase in calm and anxiolysis (typical of GABAa-potentiation) today after consuming a large amount of anti-estrogenic phytosterols in combination with Zembrin and Forskolin. Libido also shot through the roof!
Anti-estrogens cause LH release, and Zembrin provides a pde-4 inhibition to potentiate the steroidogenetic effect of LH.
I.e. Anti-estrogen (or other LH/GnRH/HcG-trigger) + Zembrin + Forskolin = Hormonal boost.
I used 100g sunflower seeds as anti-estrogen. (yields ca 550 mg phytosterols, also high in Vitamin E to protect HDL)

It's still just a hypothesis, and I'll play around with it for a bit and come back to you. I could be completely wrong, but I'm just throwing it out there.

http://www.sdbonline...ural/dunce2.htm
"In view of the finding that PDE4 inhibitors cause oocyte maturation in follicle culture in the absence of gonadotropin stimulation"
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9873200
"Consistent with PDEs negatively regulating GnRH secretion, treatment with the nonselective PDE inhibitor, IBMX, stimulated GnRH secretion 137% in 30-min static cultures. Furthermore, treatment with the PDE4-specific inhibitors Rolipram and RS-25344 increased GnRH secretion 48 and 125%, while treatment with the PDE1-specific inhibitor 8-MeoM-IBMX only caused a modest increase of 28%."
http://mend.endojour...17/6/1117.short
"These data demonstrate that PDE4D regulation plays a critical role in gonadotropin mechanism of action"


Does anyone know any more potent anti-estrogens or LH/HcG/GnRH-triggers?
I'm gonna try replacing the Sunflower seeds with 100g (black) Sesame seeds, which are richer in Phytosterols (750 mg/100g!), has sesamin, and some other cool properties as well. (which have been discussed here earlier)
"sesamin increased dopamine levels to 133% and tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) activity to 128.2% of control levels."

Mr. Poliquin, one of the worlds highest renowned strength coaches, supports using sesame and sunflower seeds as anti-estrogens:
http://www.charlespo...oxic_Load_.aspx

Edited by chung_pao, 01 July 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

"In vivo, PDE4 inhibition in FSH-primed rats resulted in ovulation, indicating that the PDE4 inhibitors can substitute for LH and human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) in this process."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15448112
Guess I'm gonna start ovulating.

It's interesting that PDE4 inhibition can causes ovulation as it also causes other related female specific effects (See http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23347325).

It's interesting how the body makes such diverse use of a single biochemical pathway.

I am going to give the sesamin I've had lying around a try. Sesamin is also a cAMP potentiator and induces melanogenisis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21896570

Sesamin induces melanogenesis by microphthalmia-associated transcription factor and tyrosinase up-regulation via cAMP signaling pathway.
Jiang Z, Li S, Liu Y, Deng P, Huang J, He G.
Source
China-UK HUST-RRes Genetic Engineering and Genomics Joint Laboratory, The Genetic Engineering International Cooperation Base of Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology, College of Life Science and Technology, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan, China. jiangjzq@sina.com
Abstract

In this study, we confirmed that sesamin, an active lignan isolated from sesame seed and oil, is a novel skin-tanning compound. The melanin content and tyrosinase activity were increased by sesamin in a dose-dependent manner in B16 melanoma cells. The mRNA and protein levels of tyrosinase were also enhanced after the treatment with sesamin. Western blot analysis revealed that sesamin induced and sustained up-regulation of microphthalmia-associated transcription factor (MITF). Sesamin could activate cAMP response element (CRE) binding protein (CREB), but it had no effect on the phosphorylation of p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) or Akt. Moreover, sesamin activated protein kinase A (PKA) via acAMP-dependent pathway. Consistent with these results, sesamin-mediated increase of melanin synthesis was reduced significantly by H-89, a PKA inhibitor, but not by SB203580, a p38 MAPK inhibitor or by LY294002, a phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase (PI3K) inhibitor. Sesamin-mediated phosphorylation of CREB and induction of MITF and tyrosinase expression were also inhibited by H-89. These findings indicated that sesamin could stimulate melanogenesis in B16 cells via the up-regulation of MITF and tyrosinase, which was, in turn, due to the activation of cAMP signaling.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 01 July 2013 - 09:08 PM.

[magta39]

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).


Plan to try: theobromine (from cacao) in place of caffeine. Caffeine can have some nasty sides for me, I really don't Luke the vasoconstriction for my workouts, and I hate being dependent on it. So I'm looking to use caffeine as more of an occasional thing, like when I didn't get enough sleep.

Anyone have any comments on these variations? I've heard mixed reviews on theobromine as a stimulant.

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).


Plan to try: theobromine (from cacao) in place of caffeine. Caffeine can have some nasty sides for me, I really don't Luke the vasoconstriction for my workouts, and I hate being dependent on it. So I'm looking to use caffeine as more of an occasional thing, like when I didn't get enough sleep.

Anyone have any comments on these variations? I've heard mixed reviews on theobromine as a stimulant.

My Current stack - a variation of ciltep I've been playing with for a week or so.
1-2 caps artichoke 300mg
100-200mg suntheanine
6mg forskolin

counter to most people experiences, L-PA just doesn't agree with me. It makes me anxious and overstimulated. The theanine seems to do the trick for dopaminewhile giving an incredible mood boost (it only does this when I talked it with ciltep).

I am trying this today and really like it...I also find tyrosine and phenylalanine much to stimulating. Took this this morning:
300 mg artichoke extract capsule
100 mg theanine cap, empty it and take sublingually
take a 100mg 10%Forskolin cap, open it and take 1/3 of it sublingually

felt great today.....then took another 100 mg theanine sublingually 4 hrs later

[prunk]

Has anyone combined St John's Wort with the basic CILTEP stack? Could there be some negative interactions?

[chung_pao]

Seeing as PDE-4 inhibition is the essential component of CILTEP... Has anyone tried this alternative to Zembrin:
http://www.iherb.com...wder-50-g/35952
It's the same brand, but a 50g bulk package of Sceletium Tortuosum, not standardized or extracted the way Zembrin is.

Could it provide the same PDE-4 inhibition for a lower cost?

If the educated guesses are positive and probable, I'll order this one next and try it out for us.
The most important factor is potency of PDE-4 inhibition/cost.

If the 50 mg dose of this product could provide the same PDE-inhibition as Zembrin, there are 1000 doses in 1 product. (vs Zembrin's 60/product)

Any thoughts?
http://www.nutradire...macological.pdf
This study is pretty much all we have to go on.
According to this information we should still be able to achieve the same effects with the Pure powder vs Zembrin.

Edited by chung_pao, 02 July 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

Seeing as PDE-4 inhibition is the essential component of CILTEP... Has anyone tried this alternative to Zembrin:
http://www.iherb.com...wder-50-g/35952
It's the same brand, but a 50g bulk package of Sceletium Tortuosum, not standardized or extracted the way Zembrin is.

Could it provide the same PDE-4 inhibition for a lower cost?

The reason that Zembrin is better from a PDE4 inhibition perspective is that it has higher mesembrenone content. Mesembrenone is the strongest PDE4 inhibiting component of Sceletium Tortuosum. The other psychoactive component of the plant, Mesembrine, is weak PDE4 inhibitors and acts in an SSRI like way by blocking the activity of the 5-HT transporter. Subjectively, the raw extract puts me in a good mood and makes me tell a lot of funny jokes but isn't as good for studying or mental work as Zembrin is.

Here's some of my earlier analysis on the topic:
http://www.longecity...260#entry572326

Edited by abelard lindsay, 03 July 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[rikelme]

There are some, who got addicted to Sceletium Tortuosum extract already :

http://www.bluelight...ressant-calming

Edited by rikelme, 03 July 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Suirsuss]

Seeing as PDE-4 inhibition is the essential component of CILTEP... Has anyone tried this alternative to Zembrin:
http://www.iherb.com...wder-50-g/35952
It's the same brand, but a 50g bulk package of Sceletium Tortuosum, not standardized or extracted the way Zembrin is.

Could it provide the same PDE-4 inhibition for a lower cost?

Thats just the straight herb in a cap. There is just not going to be enough of the alkaloids. I would at least get a little of some kind of 10x or 25x sceletium and see if it works. There are some standardized kanna extracts available if we form a group buy but mostly what I have seen on retail shops look pretty sketchy.

[Nootropic Cat]

Has anyone combined St John's Wort with the basic CILTEP stack? Could there be some negative interactions?

I can't see why there would be. I've usually been taking just 300mg Perika per day and CILTEP on alternate days, but recently due to stressful circumstances 900mg Perika/day. No adverse effects to report.

[chung_pao]

The reason that Zembrin is better from a PDE4 inhibition perspective is that it has higher mesembrenone content. Mesembrenone is the strongest PDE4 inhibiting component of Sceletium Tortuosum. The other psychoactive component of the plant, Mesembrine, is weak PDE4 inhibitors and acts in an SSRI like way by blocking the activity of the 5-HT transporter. Subjectively, the raw extract puts me in a good mood and makes me tell a lot of funny jokes but isn't as good for studying or mental work as Zembrin is.

Here's some of my earlier analysis on the topic:
http://www.longecity...260#entry572326

IMO, the developers have done a very good job on this product and I'll continue purchasing it.
I don't want to risk getting another heavy SSRI on my hands. They're absolutely awful for getting anything done.
It's also interesting to see that the product has so many synergistic actions that orchestrate its effect. (AChE, GABA, 5-HT, PDE3, 10A, 7A, 11...)

I'm going to continue experimenting with an extended version of CILTEP to also increase hormonal health.
PDE-4 inhibition (or inhibition of other PDE's, accomplished by Artichoke and Zembrin) clearly potentiates the effect of LH/HcG in the Leydig cells and increase hormonal production.
That means a good LH-agonist is the missing link, which leads me to the only convenient and studied alternative: D-aspartic acid (DAA).

DAA accomplishes LH-release by acting as an NMDA agonist. And it's already used widely for exactly this purpose.
If anyone is interested, the following formula could probably work very effectively for both LTP and hormonal health.

Besides making you feel incredibly cool, the hormonal release will also contribute to the nootropic effect of CILTEP.

Zembrin (1x) + Forskolin + 3-5g D-aspartic acid

The stack utilizes the following pathway:
NMDA agonism -> LH-release from pituitary gland -> cAMP-activation in Leydig cells by LH -> Cholesterol uptake from HDL during steroidogenesis

DAA will stimulate LH production, Forskolin potentiates the action of LH, and Zembrin provides the necessary PDE-inhibition to stop cAMP degradation in Leydig cells.
I also recommend consuming a diet high in monosaturated fats (nuts, seeds, animal fats) to elevate HDL-levels.

For potentiation of steroidogenesis, the literature has indicated that PDE-4 and PDE-8 are the desired targets of inhibition.
PDE-8 inhibition could be accomplished by some prescription medications, but this would be very inconvenient and the potential side-effects are too many.

Besides, the simple addition of DAA to the morning routine of Zembrin + Forskolin is just so cheap and effortless.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19860889
In humans and rats, sodium D-aspartate induces an enhancement of LH and testosterone release.

http://www.pnas.org/...3/52/19925.full
Leydig cells produce testosterone in the testes under the pulsatile control of pituitary luteinizing hormone (LH). cAMP is the intracellular messenger for LH action on steroidogenesis, and pharmacological evidence indicates that the response to LH can be modulated by cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterases (PDEs).

http://molpharm.aspe...t/81/4/556.full
These results suggest that the pool(s) of cAMP regulating androgen production are controlled by PDE8s working in conjunction with PDE4.

I'll also include Sulbutiamine, since there are some indications that it acts as an nmda-agonist and subsequent LH-release agent.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15951087
Dizocilpine (NMDA-antagonist), impaired both acquisition and retention of the DNMTS task in the saline-treated group, but not in the two sulbutiamine-treated groups, suggesting that sulbutiamine may counteract the amnesia induced by a blockade of the N-methyl-D-aspartate glutamate receptors.[8]

Edited by chung_pao, 03 July 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[lammas2]

What is the duration of zembrin + forskolin mood enhancement?

[Lufega]

This stack stopped working for me. I triend low/high doses forskolin with quercetin, vitamin C, artichoke...nothing. I can't get the same response anymore. It may have something to do with the autonomic system and low catecholamines. I do remember it worked beautifully when I was taking phentermine at the same time. Any suggestions? I might give the phen another go..

It's been about a year since I tried this stack and decided to give it another go. I'm once again using forskolin and artichoke and I added some Phenylalanine and Ashwagandha. I feel like familiar drive and focus but it's maybe 40% of what it first was last year. I have a few ideas for combinations that I'll try until I get it to work:

• HIgher doses of Ashwagandha. 1-3 capsules per day.
• Low doses of Manganese (as a stimulant)
• Ferulic acid (COMT inhibitor)
• Cinnamon (Mild MAOi. Improves my memory a little on its own)
• DHEA ?

[abelard lindsay]

DAA accomplishes LH-release by acting as an NMDA agonist. And it's already used widely for exactly this purpose.
If anyone is interested, the following formula could probably work very effectively for both LTP and hormonal health.

NMDA agonists tend to carry the danger of excitotoxicity. I would avoid anything that acts as a direct agonist to NMDA receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23553132

Aspartic acid at high concentrations is a toxin that causes hyperexcitability of neurons and is also a precursor of other excitatory amino acid - glutamates. Their excess in quantity and lack of astrocytic uptake induces excitotoxicity and leads to the degeneration of astrocytes and neurons.

A better alternative is a co-agonist like glycine. Please do not take glycine and a NMDA agonist together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine

Glycine is a required co-agonist along with glutamate for NMDA receptors. In contrast to the inhibitory role of glycine in the spinal cord, this behaviour is facilitated at the (NMDA) glutaminergic receptors which are excitatory.^[14]

Edited by abelard lindsay, 03 July 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[MasterHerb]

Potential substitute for forskolin? I am getting a free bottle from antaeuslabs.com as compensation for them shipping my phenylpiracetam late. I will stack this with artichoke and zembrin on separate occasions and report back.

http://www.nutraplan...on-60-caps.html


This in vitro testing shows that α-Hederin:

• Inhibits internalization of occupied β2 adrenergic receptors.
• Increases the binding affinity of noradrenaline for β2AR.
• Increases intracellular cAMP (which confirms that it increased β2AR binding).

The increased binding potential of these receptors to other ligands when exposed to α-Hederin suggest that there exists potential for a synergistic effect between Hedera Helix extracts and β2AR agonists. This is, in my opinion, an extremely interesting and potentially very useful property."

Edited by MasterHerb, 04 July 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Tumah]

After about three days I've finally finished all 55 pages of this thread. Now on to the questions:

1. Is there any preference to NALT over L- Tyrosine here?
2. I have some generalized anxiety and mild OCD and intend to add L- Theanine to the stack (and of course MgT at night). I was wondering if NAC might be something I could add as well? Daily? Rhodiola was mentioned earlier in the thread as well. Would that be a better/ safer route?
3. On the same note, much of my learning difficulty stems from anxiety. Is there any likelihood of the stimulants exacerbating that problem, which might be counterproductive?
4. I haven't really seen much discussion about oxiracetam here. I am leaning towards adding piracetam since phenylpiracetam doesn't seem to be sustainable due to tolerance and aniracetam induces fog. Does anyone have any experience with oxiracetam?
5. If I am already taking a B- complex are activated forms of B contraindicated? If not, is the additional benefit of the activated forms worth the additional expenditure?

Edited by Tumah, 04 July 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[xsiv1]

This stack stopped working for me. I triend low/high doses forskolin with quercetin, vitamin C, artichoke...nothing. I can't get the same response anymore. It may have something to do with the autonomic system and low catecholamines. I do remember it worked beautifully when I was taking phentermine at the same time. Any suggestions? I might give the phen another go..

It's been about a year since I tried this stack and decided to give it another go. I'm once again using forskolin and artichoke and I added some Phenylalanine and Ashwagandha. I feel like familiar drive and focus but it's maybe 40% of what it first was last year. I have a few ideas for combinations that I'll try until I get it to work:

• HIgher doses of Ashwagandha. 1-3 capsules per day.
• Low doses of Manganese (as a stimulant)
• Ferulic acid (COMT inhibitor)
• Cinnamon (Mild MAOi. Improves my memory a little on its own)
• DHEA ?

Not sure why you're using Ashwaghanda in conjunction with CILTEP. Although I believe it has many beneficial properties as an adaptogen, doesn't it downregulate Gaba over time and even act on the inhibitory pathway? Seems to me that L-theanine would be a better choice if jitters or anxiety are a concern with the dopamine precursor. I mean, yes, tolerance to it develops (not unlike Ashwaghanda), but presumably you'd get some benefit from taking breaks from certain stacks anyways.

[xsiv1]

After about three days I've finally finished all 55 pages of this thread. Now on to the questions:

1. Is there any preference to NALT over L- Tyrosine here?
2. I have some generalized anxiety and mild OCD and intend to add L- Theanine to the stack (and of course MgT at night). I was wondering if NAC might be something I could add as well? Daily? Rhodiola was mentioned earlier in the thread as well. Would that be a better/ safer route?
3. On the same note, much of my learning difficulty stems from anxiety. Is there any likelihood of the stimulants exacerbating that problem, which might be counterproductive?
4. I haven't really seen much discussion about oxiracetam here. I am leaning towards adding piracetam since phenylpiracetam doesn't seem to be sustainable due to tolerance and aniracetam induces fog. Does anyone have any experience with oxiracetam?
5. If I am already taking a B- complex are activated forms of B contraindicated? If not, is the additional benefit of the activated forms worth the additional expenditure?

For me, NALT seems to be more effective at a lower dose of 350mgs vs 500 of l-tyrosine. I seem to get more side effects from l-tyrosine i.e., jitters, irritability etc.

In my opinion, NAC is a wonderful supplement for nearly anyone because of its antioxidant role and it's purported neuroprotective effect against the likes of excess glutamate. One thing to look into is taking at least an equal amount of vitamin C since some of it could be metabolized into homocysteine iirc. Someone correct me here if I'm in error.

If you're already prone to anxiety, then yes, adding a dopamine precursor may exacerbate the condition, especially over time. L-theanine may help you enough with that or it may not. If you're currently on any antidepressant that also acts in an anxiolytic manner, I'd double check on your use of Rhodiola. Some can take it while on an AD, while others cannot.

As far as your B-Complex vitamin, I'd normally state that utilizing an activated or singular form in addition to the multi will depend on a number of variables. These ranges from your lifestyle, medications you may already be taking, whether you exercise and how often, your nutrition or other things like smoking etc. It's far safer to just stick with a complex and slowly introduce other forms like B12 or B6 like some do. Many people who suffer from anxiety have taken doses of B6, as an example, in excess of 250mgs per day only to find out that those types of doses are actually neurotoxic. I use phenylpiracetam and enjoy it's effects, but I never get to the tolerance issue simply because I don't use it more than a couple days a week. I almost use it solely for its stimulatory properties not unlike sulbutiamine. Both sporadically.

[Strangelove]

Many people (me included) have great results from CILTEP, nevertheless I am bafled how noone (except from abelard once) did not have occasional issues feeling sleepy (I have them at times, together with couple friends that tried the stack). I cannot pinpoint what is that make the difference at times (I am getting the exact same CILTEP doses every time, artichoke, forscolin, l-phenylanine, b-complex). There are times I would easily study for hours, and other times I ll get very sleepy after an hour. Abelard recommended upping l-phenylanine and that is an issue with dopamine reserves from forskolin release... Do you think thats the best way to solve my sleepiness issue? There are times I got another half of the stack after couple hours with very good results... I am not sure if much extra l-phenylanine is the best way to go as I am a little sensitive to it, and think about possible dopamine downregulations issues?

[rikelme]

I'm sorry to say, but it seems that CILTEP has stopped working for me. No measurable difference between CILTEP + methylcobalamin + NADH compared to methylcobalamin + NADH alone. And yes, I've tried different amounts of forskolin, artichoke and l-phenylalanine. I haven't tried zembrin, though - I might sometime in future. So I'm sticking with very basic stack, for now: methylcobalamin, NADH, EPA+DHA, ALCAR and occasionally aniracetam.

I'll be actively following this thread in case some new findings pop up.

Thank you all !

Edited by rikelme, 05 July 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[xsiv1]

I'm sorry to say, but it seems that CILTEP has stopped working for me. No measurable difference between CILTEP + methylcobalamin + NADH compared to methylcobalamin + NADH alone. And yes, I've tried different amounts of forskolin, artichoke and l-phenylalanine. I haven't tried zembrin, though - I might sometime in future. So I'm sticking with very basic stack, for now: methylcobalamin, NADH, EPA+DHA, ALCAR and occasionally aniracetam.

I'll be actively following this thread in case some new findings pop up.

Thank you all !

The body can adapt to millions of things as we all know. It's best to break from it at this point and try something entirely new. In essence, you're also stating that you felt no discernible effect from using NADH as well? Have you ever used it by itself? I ask because it was on my list of things to try. Also, was it in a capsule or tablet taken sublingually?