61 replies to this topic

[Hebbeh]

http://www.longecity...__fromsearch__1
http://www.longecity...uction-methods/

I've read a few anecdotes from bodybuilders who claim that GH makes their tendinitis worse. The best steroid for tendon and ligament problems would be nandrolone/deca durabolin

Very true...bodybuilders that abuse GH for long periods often end up with ruptured tendons and injuries. In respect to nandrolone though...as a side effect it causes fluid retention and the fluid retention acts like a "lubricant" in the joints and as such, often is used by bodybuilders who have joint "issues"...but I don't believe the literature shows any beneficial effect to tendons or ligaments themselves. And nandrolone is an awful steroid for causing long term issues with endogenous testosterone suppression,,,nandrolone can (and has) caused a failed drug test more than a year after ceasing usage...and nandrolone has the highest incidence of impotency...and most steroid users that have extreme difficulty in recovering natural endogenous testosterone production after ceasing steroid usage can attribute that to nandrolone...due to both it's hard suppression of endogenous T and it's very very long time in clearing the body. Many athletes have failed drug tests long after ceasing use due to nandrolone....and very few athletes use it for these reasons....except untested bodybuilders who never go off and like the joint "lubrication" effects of the fluid retention sides.

[Raptor87]

Yes, Nandrolone is oilbased and can be detected in the body for up to 18months. Impotency or deca dick occurs often while on the drug, a reason why many bodybuilders avoid it, although it was one of Arnold Schwarzenegger favourites. Some bodybuilders use it because it doesn't aromatise as other androgenic compounds do which increases DHT and hairloss. Those who end a cycle often do it with HCG so the bodies own t-production gets going again.

But as you say its a risk! I dont believe that a few low dosed cycles are that bad as some would want it to be. Nandrolone is often cycled for 4-8week with 2ml/ kg of total bodymass. I myself suffer from bursitis, tendinitis, muscle scarring on several places and have so for 5-6 years. Im not gonna cycle with roids, but it is very very tempting because the pain is annoying, uncomfortable and nothing seems to work. It has taken that much of time and its still there bugging me, there doesn't seem to be a cure.

[Hebbeh]

Yes, Nandrolone is oilbased and can be detected in the body for up to 18months. Impotency or deca dick occurs often while on the drug, a reason why many bodybuilders avoid it, although it was one of Arnold Schwarzenegger favourites. Some bodybuilders use it because it doesn't aromatise as other androgenic compounds do which increases DHT and hairloss. Those who end a cycle often do it with HCG so the bodies own t-production gets going again.

But as you say its a risk! I dont believe that a few low dosed cycles are that bad as some would want it to be. Nandrolone is often cycled for 4-8week with 2ml/ kg of total bodymass. I myself suffer from bursitis, tendinitis, muscle scarring on several places and have so for 5-6 years. Im not gonna cycle with roids, but it is very very tempting because the pain is annoying, uncomfortable and nothing seems to work. It has taken that much of time and its still there bugging me, there doesn't seem to be a cure.

Your issues could be related to muscle adhesions caused by the muscle scarring. Check out ART (Active Release Techniques). I've heard many good things from athletes with similar issues and recurring injuries that were able to completely heal and rehab coming back stronger than ever. Apparently the degree of success though depends on the skill and experience of the ART therapist or doctor.

[Healthy Tony]

I am not sure why people seem to think that AAS in general help with tendon issues. While they do help build collagen they decrease the cross linking. Deca and Equipoise being two exceptions to this with Equipoise being ever so slightly more effective. That being said it would be much safer to use a GH releasing peptide along with Adequan. I can't imagine side effects causing any issues with that combo, but it should still be very effective at repairing tendons.

@Hebbeh: It's not the water retention that helps with the joints, its the tripling in collagen synthesis and increased crosslinking.

Edited by TheRockst4r, 11 December 2011 - 03:53 AM.

[computeTHIS]

I am not sure why people seem to think that AAS in general help with tendon issues. While they do help build collagen they decrease the cross linking.

Can you explain how they decrease cross linking? I'm just curious.

Deca and Equipoise being two exceptions to this with Equipoise being ever so slightly more effective. That being said it would be much safer to use a GH releasing peptide along with Adequan. I can't imagine side effects causing any issues with that combo, but it should still be very effective at repairing tendons.

You have to inject yourself with this stuff right? So when I see my doc about this, I don't suppose Adequan or Equipoise will be something he can prescribe, since it's for animals...

[nidhogg]

TheRockst4r > Im not sure how deep you knowledge goes in terms of AAS, but decreased cross linking is afaik only observable in winstrol.

Procollagen2 synthesis is significantly increased by Equipoise, Deca and Anavar. Although growth hormone is the superior.

I wouldnt try anything serious unless you plan to put some mass. I'd give it a go with theraputical doses of oxandrolone, which at 10mg ED has been proven not to induce inhibitory regulation of gonadotropin release in burned victims.
Now, if this was a bodybuilding forum most people would chyme in and say its ineffective and a waste of money since its fairly expensive, but keep in mind that your goal is tendon healing and not anabolism through androgen stimulation(oxandrolone has a relatively very weak affinity for the androgen receptor). Oxandrolone is also a competetive inhibitor of coritsol and a IGF-1 release inducer.

Another choice is ostarine which has been rumored to increase collagen synthesis aswell, although that might not be worth much in terms of credibility.

[AgeVivo]

Actually, I read that injecting your own blood or rather PRP (Platelet-Rich-Plasma: the part of your blood that contains most growth factors) is good against tendinosis and is used by sportive athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19064169 Treatment of tendon and muscle using platelet-rich plasma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12671860 Autologous blood injections for refractory lateral epicondylitis.
http://en.wikipedia....blood_injection
http://en.wikipedia....let-rich_plasma

pizza, pasta, strawberries, PRP...

[Ampa-omega]

TheRockst4r > Im not sure how deep you knowledge goes in terms of AAS, but decreased cross linking is afaik only observable in winstrol.

Procollagen2 synthesis is significantly increased by Equipoise, Deca and Anavar. Although growth hormone is the superior.

correct me if i'm wrong but where does it say anavar (oxandrolone) increases procollagen2?
all of those ASS increase either type 1 or 3 procollagen markers, i cant see where it mentions procollagen2, any help?

[nidhogg]

TheRockst4r > Im not sure how deep you knowledge goes in terms of AAS, but decreased cross linking is afaik only observable in winstrol.

Procollagen2 synthesis is significantly increased by Equipoise, Deca and Anavar. Although growth hormone is the superior.

correct me if i'm wrong but where does it say anavar (oxandrolone) increases procollagen2?
all of those ASS increase either type 1 or 3 procollagen markers, i cant see where it mentions procollagen2, any help?

Yea youre completely right, i was thinking of procollagen 3

[Raptor87]

http://www.medscape....warticle/403338

Very tempting I might say.

Whats the take on steroids these days. I mean I haven checked any current data about long term effects. When I was reading about AAS there weren't any concluded evidence. The only data findings had to do with shortterm sideeffects as hormonal imbalance which today is easier to regulate with postcycle drugs.

Do you guys know anything about this?

[nidhogg]

http://www.medscape....warticle/403338

Very tempting I might say.

Whats the take on steroids these days. I mean I haven checked any current data about long term effects. When I was reading about AAS there weren't any concluded evidence. The only data findings had to do with shortterm sideeffects as hormonal imbalance which today is easier to regulate with postcycle drugs.

Do you guys know anything about this?

Not much have changed, there is still nothing conclusive. For instance, steroid use and benign prostatic hypertrophy have been linked, but testosterone itself does not enlarge the prostate in higher than endogenous levels(there is a study on this). This leads me to believe that its a result of higher efficacy substances i.e super agonists(trenbolone and dht for instance)

Left ventricular hypertrophy has also been linked to extensive steroid "abuse", this too is inconclusive due to the inconsistent results. My take on it is that its not directly related to the androgenic receptor but instead a result of heart strain possibly through combinations of AAS and central stimulants, heavy weight training/heavy cardio. It was earlier believed that there was a direct link, but a study done on baboons showed that the androgen receptor in the heart which had high affinity to DHT did not produce any actions upon triggering.

These are the only two long term side effects, other than liver damage from 17a methylated steroids.

It should also be noted that most of the studies plotted to explore hazards were done on bodybuilders, which speaks for itself.

If one was to use steroids, i would suggest not using anything that surpasses testosterones efficiency.

[Sartac]

Deca and Equipoise being two exceptions to this with Equipoise being ever so slightly more effective. That being said it would be much safer to use a GH releasing peptide along with Adequan. I can't imagine side effects causing any issues with that combo, but it should still be very effective at repairing tendons.

You have to inject yourself with this stuff right? So when I see my doc about this, I don't suppose Adequan or Equipoise will be something he can prescribe, since it's for animals...

I wouldn't suggest mentioning any of this AAS stuff to your doc. Even bringing up the prescription names of oxandrolone (check wiki) could raise suspicion. But this all depends on your relationship, etc. I would honestly make note of all of your concerns and check with a joint/orthopedic specialist, if you haven't already.

As an aside, here is a very interesting thread about NSAID's and thier effect on collagen repair / healing.
http://www.mindandmu...ds-tendinopathy

[AgeVivo]

Actually, I read that injecting your own blood or rather PRP (Platelet-Rich-Plasma: the part of your blood that contains most growth factors) is good against tendinosis and is used by sportive athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19064169 Treatment of tendon and muscle using platelet-rich plasma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12671860 Autologous blood injections for refractory lateral epicondylitis.
http://en.wikipedia....blood_injection
http://en.wikipedia....let-rich_plasma

highlighting in case it went unnoticed; because it seems scientifically serious

[computeTHIS]

Actually, I read that injecting your own blood or rather PRP (Platelet-Rich-Plasma: the part of your blood that contains most growth factors) is good against tendinosis and is used by sportive athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19064169 Treatment of tendon and muscle using platelet-rich plasma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12671860 Autologous blood injections for refractory lateral epicondylitis.
http://en.wikipedia....blood_injection
http://en.wikipedia....let-rich_plasma

highlighting in case it went unnoticed; because it seems scientifically serious

Thanks for re-mentioning it, I missed that for some reason. I'm curious if any of this treatment is also good for joints. While the problem is mostly with tendon pain, the joint(s) in my ankle pop almost constantly - which also makes athletic activity difficult. Man, that was one nasty ankle sprain, and yes, it was x-rayed for broken bones.

[computeTHIS]

Actually, I read that injecting your own blood or rather PRP (Platelet-Rich-Plasma: the part of your blood that contains most growth factors) is good against tendinosis and is used by sportive athletes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19064169 Treatment of tendon and muscle using platelet-rich plasma.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12671860 Autologous blood injections for refractory lateral epicondylitis.
http://en.wikipedia....blood_injection
http://en.wikipedia....let-rich_plasma

highlighting in case it went unnoticed; because it seems scientifically serious

The doc shot this proposal down, apparently it's effects were roughly equal to placebo, so insurance won't cover it: www.smbs.buffalo.edu/ortho/residency/uosjournal/12611c.pdf

The doc wants to do an MRI next month before any other sort of treatment plan. Most recent studies still seem to show success with growth hormone (GH) treatment, so I'll probably be weighing which GH-treatments would be most effective (or covered by insurance). I hate having to wait for so long.

[computeTHIS]

Have you checked into Cissus works better then all other supplements for tendons.

It works by increasing the collagen turnover rate, is that correct? I'm curious what your experience with Cissus is, it deosn't seem to get much attention. Could you recommend some brands?

MSM makes tendons more stretchy, so that might help you from re-straining it.

MSM refers to methyl-sulfonyl-methane, is that right? Can you give sources for it's effects on the tendons? So far, I just find its use related to osteoarthritis treatment.

Alflutop is another to look at. AAS seems rather drastic just for joint issues, mostly due to legality, but there's also throwing hormones out of whack. It may be feasible to take a lowish dose of anavar for this purpose, if you get a script or live in an area where such things are legal.

It is fairly drastic to be honest... But when you have been living with pain for several months that is not improving despite exhausting the usual options, you start to think of more drastic solutions. I personally will probably be going with adequan + HGH, but if that doesn't work I will try a special AAS stack designed solely for tendon repair. That being said Anavar will not help with this most likely as that is a DHT analogue, and it too can mess up your hormones to some degree.

Please do report your experience on it, those would almost definitely be my last resorts - thinking of costs and possible side effects.

I tend to use USPlabs Super Cissus, it works great for sports related injuries I get mine from Amazon.com or Nutraplanet.com (they sometimes have it on sale)

Also i'd look into stacking it with S-Adenosyl methionine and make sure you get one in a blisterpack as it's very unstable and easyly turns rencid.

Oh, when or how do you take Cissus (like with or without food)? Also, how long does it take for you to notice its effects? Mine just arrived, went with Primaforce though.

[Justchill]

Yesterday my left knee was diagnosed Quadriceps tendon tendinosis. I'm going to try MSM 6g /day + Collagon 6g /day + vitamin C 3g / day + fysiotherapy (exercises)
Hope it helps.

cissus.. great for pain! You can take it on an empty stomach and you will notice effects instantly (analgesic effects).

[mdi33]

I would recommend Serrapeptace.enzyme
I've been using it, my whole family uses it, from my 81 year old mother to my 22 year old daughter

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Serrapeptase

[mdi33]

I recommend Serrapeptace enzyme.(also known as Serratiopeptidase)
look it up.
I use it for my arthritic knee, my 81 year old mother swears by it and my 22 year old daughter recently had wrist surgery and her healing time has been shortened by 1/3

Edited by mdi33, 24 December 2011 - 06:23 AM.

[bitstorm]

I had PRP done. It worked really well..
Here's a description I sent to another athlete contemplating it. It was for a hamstring tear.

"I found the PRP helped heaps. a few days after the injection I felt an immediate difference in pain levels. I took it easy for a few weeks afterwards to make sure i didn't push it too hard.
The difference afterwards was remarkable. I regained alot of the height in my kicks. A few weeks after the first PRP i felt confident to include high kicks into my act again.

I went back for a second lot of PRP a few months later when i felt the healing had plateaued a bit, once again i felt it really kick in and make a difference.

Each time for the first 3-4 weeks i found it feels dramatically better, after that i find it regress's a bit, the pain comes back a bit, but it stays at a much lower level than before. I felt it really did do something to kick the healing process in.

My advice is to get as many vials of the plasma put in as you can each treatment. Especially if your insurance covers it. No side effects as its your own plasma! For my second round I got jason to put 4 vials in, from the attachment where the ligament was torn, right through to the belly of the muscle.
It stings a little but hey, whatever, gets us back on stage quick!
the bruising wasn't even too bad, I was performing again that night and it was just a little sore, fades in a few days."

[noos]

I recommend Serrapeptace enzyme.(also known as Serratiopeptidase)
look it up.
I use it for my arthritic knee, my 81 year old mother swears by it and my 22 year old daughter recently had wrist surgery and her healing time has been shortened by 1/3

Do you take it alone? I read some people who take it for arteries take some supplements like vitamins.

[abelard lindsay]

I agree with the Cissus recommendation. Fixes my backaches in no time.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 05 January 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[mdi33]

I take it away from food , 1st thing in the morning and last thing before bed.
I take other assorted vitamins and supplements but this one really works on joint pain and other inflammation.
As far as clearing your arteries, time will tell, it works very slowly for that.

Edited by mdi33, 05 January 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[noos]

I take it away from food , 1st thing in the morning and last thing before bed.
I take other assorted vitamins and supplements but this one really works on joint pain and other inflammation.
As far as clearing your arteries, time will tell, it works very slowly for that.

Do you think it can work for plantar fibromatosis?
http://en.wikipedia....ar_fibromatosis
I thought it was necessary to take with COQ10, E or something to protect from its effects.

[Ark]

Have you checked into Cissus works better then all other supplements for tendons.

It works by increasing the collagen turnover rate, is that correct? I'm curious what your experience with Cissus is, it deosn't seem to get much attention. Could you recommend some brands?

MSM makes tendons more stretchy, so that might help you from re-straining it.

MSM refers to methyl-sulfonyl-methane, is that right? Can you give sources for it's effects on the tendons? So far, I just find its use related to osteoarthritis treatment.

Alflutop is another to look at. AAS seems rather drastic just for joint issues, mostly due to legality, but there's also throwing hormones out of whack. It may be feasible to take a lowish dose of anavar for this purpose, if you get a script or live in an area where such things are legal.

It is fairly drastic to be honest... But when you have been living with pain for several months that is not improving despite exhausting the usual options, you start to think of more drastic solutions. I personally will probably be going with adequan + HGH, but if that doesn't work I will try a special AAS stack designed solely for tendon repair. That being said Anavar will not help with this most likely as that is a DHT analogue, and it too can mess up your hormones to some degree.

Please do report your experience on it, those would almost definitely be my last resorts - thinking of costs and possible side effects.

I tend to use USPlabs Super Cissus, it works great for sports related injuries I get mine from Amazon.com or Nutraplanet.com (they sometimes have it on sale)

Also i'd look into stacking it with S-Adenosyl methionine and make sure you get one in a blisterpack as it's very unstable and easyly turns rencid.

Oh, when or how do you take Cissus (like with or without food)? Also, how long does it take for you to notice its effects? Mine just arrived, went with Primaforce though.

about 8 days at 6 caps a day before i notice anything, that's from USPlabs Super Cissus, what about you, are you noticing effects and what dosage are you on?

[computeTHIS]

The effects were not immediately obvious, but I haven't been putting much stress on the ankle either. I've been taking 2 caps, twice a day (4 caps total), 30 min before meals as the directions say. Tendons/ligaments in the ankle feel much better. My Achilles tendon is still rather tight, but at least it's stopped hurting. I've been taking SAM-e as well, but I was taking that long before I started Cissus.

The joint in my ankle still pops (loudly) in multiple places as I rotate it. I may need to add something specifically for joints. I've read that this can be due to a lack of fluid or cartilage in the joint. The popping gets progressively louder as I rotate the ankle over a period of time.

[computeTHIS]

I'm really impressed with how Cissus has almost completely cured by tendon pain. My tendons have a history of being tight though (regardless of stretching or exercise), and now that I've had severe ankle sprains I'm worried about weakness in the area. The bone still pops really bad in my left ankle.

I'm not sure if Adequan, (polysulfated glycosaminoglycan) is any better than glucosamine/chondroitin supplementation, and I'm wondering if that's the reason that Adequan has no human-equivalent product. To my knowledge, glucosamine, chondroitin sulfate, and MSM seem to be the most commonly doctor-approved recommendations for joint problems.


Equipoise is definitely a no-go I think, I've read that it shows up on drug tests for up to 1.5 years after dosing. I would be in serious trouble if I had employers who performed drug testing.

If you decide the HGH route i'd suggest GHRP6 & MOD GRF1-29 over plain simple HGH. First of all its plenty cheaper(unless you are covered by ensurance) aswell as widely available. Second, exogenous HGH desensitizes the somatotropic cells in long term which appear to be permanent. Then there is the problem with elevated cortisol and prolactin levels, none which are a problem with GHRP & MGRF.

Do you have any recommended suppliers for these? Feel free to message me. Also, can you provide sources for their usage, such as safety and side-effects? It's annoying that these things are labeled as research chemicals. Are these really the cheapest HGH-secretologues?

[Justchill]

Are you sure the injury has cured? Or do you just experience the pain-killing effects of cissus?
What is your daily dose?

[Justchill]

Has anybody tried heat or hot/cold therapy for healing?
How exactly did that go and did that help?

[scouser]

I have used MSM pure 99% for a long time now to improve issues I have with tendons in ankle and foot.

The cheapest supplies I have found by far are from equine suppliers. (Human quality). Initial doses were high 3 x heaped teaspoons daily for a month then down to 1 per day. i also take Vit C, D3, B6

I still have some pain, but easily managable, Im 43 and 18 stone so weight has to be an issue I'm working on that also.

In terms of collagen I am told the best and most natural way is to eat bone marrow. I have an organic beef farm near me and they throw away the marrow bones. Either use to make stock or have the butcher cut into 3" bits and roast for 20mins, with a litle sea salt out of the bone or spread on toast is supposed to be lovely. I am getting my first this week all going well.