1755 replies to this topic

[Kevnzworld]

How does this not surprise me !
Quote:
" I decided to become a vested partner in their business" ( sciwalk )

Edited by Kevnzworld, 06 November 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[sciwalk]

How does this not surprise me !
Quote:
" I decided to become a vested partner in their business" ( sciwalk )

Ya, no doubt, I see a big future in industrial enzymes but it is a whole new field for me, so quite a challenge. Thanks for the convidence boost!

[Dreamer]

How does this not surprise me !
Quote:
" I decided to become a vested partner in their business" ( sciwalk )

I have quite a few problems with this post and attitude.

I have bought twice from sciwalk and found him honest, responsive and completely legitimate.

Does the fact that he might make a few bucks from doing the research and groundwork, packaging, in dosages that we want and need offend anyone? If so, don't buy from him. BTW, nobody does this type of thing for free.

Someone here says that they can buy 100 grams for $25,000. So what??? Who is going to accept responsibility, collect the money, order the product in acceptable sizes and packaging, package, prepare it for shipment, pack it, label it and ship it out at no additional charges??? Who can we trust to do so???

I've been there and done that, it's a lot of work. I would not do it for nothing.

Let's at least look at this thing with open eyes and not forget what is all involved. It's not as simple getting a cheaper price per mg for over a hundred times the normal purchase quantity. Anyone can do that. It's the difference between wholesaling and retailing.

[niner]

How does this not surprise me !
Quote:
" I decided to become a vested partner in their business" ( sciwalk )

I have quite a few problems with this post and attitude.

I have bought twice from sciwalk and found him honest, responsive and completely legitimate.
[...]
Let's at least look at this thing with open eyes and not forget what is all involved. It's not as simple getting a cheaper price per mg for over a hundred times the normal purchase quantity. Anyone can do that. It's the difference between wholesaling and retailing.

Fundamentally, I agree with you, Dreamer. Sciwalk seems like a nice guy, and he deserves something for all his trouble. The problem I have is that sciwalk also posted pictures showing a degree of apparent age reversal that is, well, hard to believe. It would be a little easier to believe if he had no motivation to lie, but selling the key ingredient provides that motivation. Does that mean sciwalk isn't legit? No, it doesn't. Knee-jerk skepticism is just a form of mental laziness, and I'm trying to avoid that, but the existence of that motivation makes something that is hard to believe that much harder to believe. In a situation like this, people like to see independent confirmation. I've only been following this peripherally, and my sense is that we don't really have that yet, but I'll ask: What's the status of independent confirmation of sciwalk's reported experience with epitalon?

[sciwalk]

Thank you for your kind words Dreamer.
A good dose of skepticism is healthy, that is what my grandma always told me. I take no offense in your apprehension Niner but we don't need to make sarcastic remarks, right?
There is a member of this board who can verify my change as he lives near me and has purchased AGAG from me. He has, however, choosen to not mention anything and I respect his right to do so.
You could always come here and see me for yourself Niner. I would love to have a visitor and I could show you about Hong Kong, its a lovely place and I bet we would have a great time. I don't drink much any more but if you want to hit the bars, I'm game!! But, don't expect me to flip the bill because to date I am WAY in the hole on selling AGAG. At this point it is truely a like minded individual service kind of thing.
Any one is welcome to visit me, by the way. I really do love Hong Kong and I love to show it off.

[mikey]

How does this not surprise me !
Quote:
" I decided to become a vested partner in their business" ( sciwalk )

I have quite a few problems with this post and attitude.

I have bought twice from sciwalk and found him honest, responsive and completely legitimate.
[...]
Let's at least look at this thing with open eyes and not forget what is all involved. It's not as simple getting a cheaper price per mg for over a hundred times the normal purchase quantity. Anyone can do that. It's the difference between wholesaling and retailing.

Fundamentally, I agree with you, Dreamer. Sciwalk seems like a nice guy, and he deserves something for all his trouble. The problem I have is that sciwalk also posted pictures showing a degree of apparent age reversal that is, well, hard to believe. It would be a little easier to believe if he had no motivation to lie, but selling the key ingredient provides that motivation. Does that mean sciwalk isn't legit? No, it doesn't. Knee-jerk skepticism is just a form of mental laziness, and I'm trying to avoid that, but the existence of that motivation makes something that is hard to believe that much harder to believe. In a situation like this, people like to see independent confirmation. I've only been following this peripherally, and my sense is that we don't really have that yet, but I'll ask: What's the status of independent confirmation of sciwalk's reported experience with epitalon?

I don't find it hard to believe. It's happened to me consistently every time I discover something that reverses some part of my aging. My young friends have said to me at least four times in the last three years, "You look younger again. What are you doing?"

The last dramatic change was after I'd been taking Tocomin-SupraBio tocotrienols, which have an eight month study showing 34% more average hair count. At five months mine was noticeably thicker and without prompting a 25-year old friend who I hadn't seen in several months said, "Your hair looks thicker. You look younger again. What are you doing"?

At 18 months my hair had turned two shades darker.

As well, I have a photo that shows my hair being way whiter and thinner than it is now three years ago. The tocotrienols apparently address the peroxide effect that grays and whitens hair as our aging antioxidant systems become less efficient at controlling peroxide.

His photos look reasonably like what happens to me.

Since I've been taking C60oo I've got wrinkles that are half or less as deep. And Turnbuckle's post made me aware that several scars are fading.

I'm expecting more to happen with the use of AGAG.

Edited by mikey, 06 November 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Andey]

I think that not all of Hugo health improvements can be attributed to Epitalon. Some of them are looks like result of active excercise and weight lost.
Epitalon was tested on thousands of people and I dont read such miracle results.

I wait for more results from different people. Also would be nice to have more info on Hugo's company Biotrends. Google founds only one page on Alibaba with Hugo contacts on it.
I dont like any trust or not trust situations in life. Although Hugo seems to be pleasant and nice to communicate person, I really want to trust him, but he need remove all unknown variables from this equation.

On the subject - its really strange for me that you cannot buy Epitalon in Russia. Khavinson institute affiliated companies sells a lot of supplements but no real peptides among them.
This supplements mostly on sale on sites that looks like site for 'penis elongation pills', they use some promo video from Khavinson insitute - it looks really weird and unconviencing.

Only real peptide that was available to buy in Russia is Timogen
Here is its nasal spray form
http://www.cytomed.ru/products/35/137
And it is not expensive as I know.


Also I think be fair to warning all potential users of Epitalon that they have to be very caution about it. As I remember Khavinson and other researchers use it with 0.1 mg dosage (and only injected) for less then a month active period with couple of months rest. At the end you can supress your own Epiphysis with it.

Edited by Andey, 06 November 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[pleb]

I've also bought two lots from Hugo and found him great to deal with prompt and friendly,

I'm not taking it for the youthful looks claimed, but for it's telomere activity, there are other things for the youthful aspect,,

but i am concerned about a continuity of supply,

[niner]

A good dose of skepticism is healthy, that is what my grandma always told me. I take no offense in your apprehension Niner but we don't need to make sarcastic remarks, right?
There is a member of this board who can verify my change as he lives near me and has purchased AGAG from me. He has, however, choosen to not mention anything and I respect his right to do so.
You could always come here and see me for yourself Niner. I would love to have a visitor and I could show you about Hong Kong, its a lovely place and I bet we would have a great time. I don't drink much any more but if you want to hit the bars, I'm game!! But, don't expect me to flip the bill because to date I am WAY in the hole on selling AGAG. At this point it is truely a like minded individual service kind of thing.

Thanks for the offer, sciwalk. I really wish I could come, but it's an awful long plane ride. I'm sorry if I came off as sarcastic; absolutely nothing I wrote was meant that way. I really appreciate that you've gone to the trouble to make AGAG available, as well as publicizing the apparent good results with it. I'm just pointing out that you're caught in the same trap that anyone who sells a supplement is caught in- Anything good you say about it will be treated with skepticism. That's just human nature, and in a field that's historically been rife with fraud and overpromotion, it's something that you have to expect. If I had found something that was so great that I felt a moral imperative to bring it to the world, lost money in the process, and then found people not believing me, I would be truly annoyed.

Anyone who saw your before and after pictures (or Jim Green's, for that matter) would probably say "Wow! That's unbelievable!". Things that are incredibly, wonderfully great, truly unprecedented, are hard to believe. That's why the word "unbelievable" is often used as a synonym for such things. It would be really easy for you to say "Fine, don't believe me. The hell with you guys." I hope you don't do that. I hope you will continue to help our community replicate your results.

[Dreamer]

I decided to try AGAG after doing my due diligence, part of which was this forum. There is plenty of online sources that discuss the benefits of AGAG with little downside risk. Although I saw his before and after photos, I did not expect the same results. I, too was more interested in lengthening the telomeres.

As far as I am concerned, Hugo is a source for a product I wish to buy. I buy a lot of products online and have never relied upon the information on their site to sway me one way or the other. Obviously, it's there to help sell product.

I don't feel that way about dealing with Hugo and I don't rely on getting the results he says he is getting.

I hate to see this thread develop into a discussion about the honesty and integrity of Hugo simply because he has made AGAG available to anyone that wants to buy it. He is doing a service for all of us that want to buy AGAG. If you don't trust him or believe what he says, simply don't buy from him. Why slice and dice him just because you are skeptical??? All of us here are intelligent enough to analyze all information and draw our own conclusions without beating up on Hugo.

Reminds me of the witch hunts of long ago, fueled by jealousy, fear, and insecurity.

As my Grandma always said, "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all."

[Andey]

Reminds me of the witch hunts of long ago, fueled by jealousy, fear, and insecurity.

Its not a question of evil and good. ) Its just about supplements.

I see nothing unbeleivable in Hugo reports (may be except he gets taller - I think its...kind of miracle and hope it didnt happen with me if choose to use epitalon - I am already 1.95m)
As for photo before and after - his photo before looks like 60yo, photo after is ok for 50yo (sorry its just my perception of photo) - again I see nothing that I cant beleive in. I am really happy for him )

But for me its important that Epithalon he distribute is good purity and quality - and I dont have any evidence of it )
I hope we will see soon numerous positive reports from Biotrends epitalon users and this would end of this discussion ))

[Kevnzworld]

Mikey;
I would like to see more robust studies. That one didn't look at hair color change. I've been taking tocotrionols for years without any apparent change to hair color or thickness. Like yourself I'm sure, I take so many supplements that it's difficult to isolate the effect of any single one. I like your website btw.

Dreamer:
For the record, I never questioned Hugo's honesty or ability to successfully complete his transactions. Witch hunts? Who is " beating up on Hugo " ? I have no idea what fueled that hyperbole! I do not think it is wrong to be skeptical or question the veracity of claims about a product where the claimant has a financial incentive to promote it's sale. I appreciate Hugo's disclosure that he is more than just a mere user of the product who is altruistically distributing it at a loss for no personal financial gain. I know you are new here and haven't participated in the other threads, but trust me, product promotion and marketing is not new here. Personally, I would need to see scientific evidence, or studies done from others than those that hope to profit from it's sale and distribution.
I've been following this thread and will continue to. Though skeptical , I have an open mind.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 06 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[bocor]

hey mikey how much actual regrowth do you attribute to the tocomin? what dosage?Alot of peeps on hairloss forums have tried it and noone has reported results there everyone thinks it was a scam study

[smithx]

Also I think be fair to warning all potential users of Epitalon that they have to be very caution about it. As I remember Khavinson and other researchers use it with 0.1 mg dosage (and only injected) for less then a month active period with couple of months rest. At the end you can supress your own Epiphysis with it.

This is my concern, and why I have not tried it so far.

[mrak1979]

Anybody else know whether the pineal gland can be suppressed with too much epitalon?

[trance]

Much of the research on Epitalon seems to point to downstream increases in melatonin in aged study models as the method of effect.

Would it not be just as prudent, and easier, to supplement with melatonin?

[zorba990]

Much of the research on Epitalon seems to point to downstream increases in melatonin in aged study models as the method of effect.

Would it not be just as prudent, and easier, to supplement with melatonin?

Epitalon is meant to be a small molecule telomerase stimulator,
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:12937682
(and also has anti-cancer activity.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:12209581)

While melatonin seems to do the opposite (inhibit telomerase):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12932205

So the hormone cascade release by the pineal may be much more complicated than just starting with melatonin, and perhaps includes DMT or even other as yet identified hormones/signaling molecules.

Now, whether supplementing the actual peptides is the best thing long term....I don't know. It would certainly seem more advantageous to
restart or optimize the pineal itself. But what is the best way to do that?

Edited by zorba990, 06 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[mikey]

Mikey;
I would like to see more robust studies. That one didn't look at hair color change. I've been taking tocotrionols for years without any apparent change to hair color or thickness. Like yourself I'm sure, I take so many supplements that it's difficult to isolate the effect of any single one. I like your website btw.

Dreamer:
For the record, I never questioned Hugo's honesty or ability to successfully complete his transactions. Witch hunts? Who is " beating up on Hugo " ? I have no idea what fueled that hyperbole! I do not think it is wrong to be skeptical or question the veracity of claims about a product where the claimant has a financial incentive to promote it's sale. I appreciate Hugo's disclosure that he is more than just a mere user of the product who is altruistically distributing it at a loss for no personal financial gain. I know you are new here and haven't participated in the other threads, but trust me, product promotion and marketing is not new here. Personally, I would need to see scientific evidence, or studies done from others than those that hope to profit from it's sale and distribution.
I've been following this thread and will continue to. Though skeptical , I have an open mind.

Thanks about my website.
As to whether tocotrienols work, I told a doctor friend about them and he too found more hair count after about five months. If you scan the net for hair forums you will find dozens of people -mostly guys who say the same thing. Sure, it would be nice if there was another study or two. But, while I take a lot of supplements the only significant change I made that added up to more hair and then darker hair was the tocotrienols. Biochemical cause and effect made sense.

Except that now with C60oo my hair seems to be darkening even more.

[mikey]

hey mikey how much actual regrowth do you attribute to the tocomin? what dosage?Alot of peeps on hairloss forums have tried it and noone has reported results there everyone thinks it was a scam study

I have no question about it causing maybe 20 percent or more hair count on the front and top.
I started out taking 3 capsules every morning. Directions say take one or two, but when something is non-toxic I tend to take more.

As to the forums, I've seen forums where they misunderstood what it was and poo-poo-ed it -- thinking that it was just vitamin E, when tocotrienols are a group of "cousin" molecules of vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) and the other tocopherols.

And I've seen forums where a number of people said the same thing that I'm saying. One guy made me aware of something that I hadn't paid attention to -- my beard is growing way faster than it did before tocotrienols. No doubt about it.

Anyway, after the hair growth was apparent I started taking four capsules every morning and will continue.

[pleb]

This still doesn't address the problem of a new supplier if Hugo stops selling it in the the smaller quantities we use;
I've gone through the search function on EW21 which lists (i assume) most of the suppliers of Peptides in china and many other places, and can't find one,

has anyone else found a supplier for Epitalon, ?

[pleb]

Anybody else know whether the pineal gland can be suppressed with too much epitalon?

It is possible that it does, studies with HGH indicate that the pituatry gland shuts down after long term use but that it starts working again after about 2 to 3 weeks of stopping the use of HGH,
so possibly the same with the pineal gland

Edited by pleb, 11 November 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[sciwalk]

Pleb,

Don't worry too much. I should be able to continue supplying up until the middle of 2013 and by then I am quite sure that someone else will step up to handling distribution.

As to the issue of causing the penial glad to shut down, this was shown to not be the case in the animal and human trials, in addtion, I think my 1 year of taking it and now being off stands as proof of that also. But, this is a natural concern and hence the idea of cycling.

[pleb]

Hi Hugo, thank you for your assurances regarding the supply, it was something i was concerned about,

[smithx]

As to the issue of causing the penial glad to shut down, this was shown to not be the case in the animal and human trials, in addtion, I think my 1 year of taking it and now being off stands as proof of that also. But, this is a natural concern and hence the idea of cycling.

Please link any studies which indicate that this is not an issue.

It's my biggest concern and what is preventing me from trying the stuff.

[mikela]

I have noticed a major reduction of the actinic keratosis on my face since taking AGAG over the past couple of months. My wife mentioned so today without being aware of my regiment. However, I have also been taking Astragalus (alcohol based) during the same time frame. So it would be impossible for me to say which has been the predominant factor.

[sciwalk]

As to the issue of causing the pineal glad to shut down, this was shown to not be the case in the animal and human trials, in addtion, I think my 1 year of taking it and now being off stands as proof of that also. But, this is a natural concern and hence the idea of cycling.

Please link any studies which indicate that this is not an issue.

It's my biggest concern and what is preventing me from trying the stuff.

I have a handful of studies linked on my web site and I know that there have been several linked from within this thread I don't know if any of those report about that or not. However, regardless, I will make an effort to pull out all the studies I have researched and found with regards to the peptide and post them on my site.

Also, please keep in mind that, Epithalamin production is greatly reduced and eventually stops as we age. AGAG (Epithalone) is the man made peptide that mimics Epithalamin. In fact, if you want to find out more studies about the effects of Epithalamin administration, you can find quite a bit as that has been going on for over 25 years. Any way, the point being, If you are taking AGAG at an advanced age, you are suplementing what your body has stopped or is near the end of doing. As for the Melatonin, the AGAG is not Melantonin and is not supplementing Melatonin in any way. Rather it actually gets your pineal gland to start producing more. Melantonin, just like Epithalamin, is greatly reduced as you age. That is why elderly people generally don't get much sleep. It is my assurtion (not recorded or documented yet as far as I know) that the AGAG also gets your pineal glad to start producing more Epithalamin. If this is the case, after a time of using it, your pineal gland should be back to a more active state and hopefully vastly regenerated. I will look through some more of the studies as I seem to recall that in the mice and chickens, thier pineal glads, in disection, were found to be in a very youthful and full state, but don't qoute me on that.

All this is going to take some time, I would appreciate any others, if you are doing some searching, to send me links so as to help me compile them.

I know I have not been doing as much as I wanted or should on applied youth site but I have just been so crazy busy studying up on the process/materials end of enzyme production. I feel like I am in College. :S

[Kevnzworld]

Sciwalk wrote:
"  As for the Melatonin, the AGAG is not Melantonin and is not supplementing Melatonin in any way.  Rather it actually gets your pineal gland to start producing more"
This study produced by the makers of Epitalon showed that 11 years ago but hasn't been replicated by anyone else since to my knowledge.
http://www.mendeley....cent-monkeys-1/
Yes, the pineal gland becomes impaired as we age partially because it calcifies.
If there was unbiased peer reviewed evidence that AGAG has the ability to " regenerate " the pineal gland, that would be interesting.
I will continue to take bioidentical melatonin. It seems like a lot more direct and a lot safer than taking a synthetic analog hoping to regenerate my pineal gland to produce melatonin
endogenously.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 12 November 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Andey]

Any updates from trialers of epitalon ? At the thread start Hugo described some almost immediate experiences after few weeks on Agag. As I understand a bunch of forum users have started some time ago and they could share their findings with us )

[pleb]

Sciwalk wrote:
" As for the Melatonin, the AGAG is not Melantonin and is not supplementing Melatonin in any way. Rather it actually gets your pineal gland to start producing more"
This study produced by the makers of Epitalon showed that 11 years ago but hasn't been replicated by anyone else since to my knowledge.
http://www.mendeley....cent-monkeys-1/
Yes, the pineal gland becomes impaired as we age partially because it calcifies.
If there was unbiased peer reviewed evidence that AGAG has the ability to " regenerate " the pineal gland, that would be interesting.
I will continue to take bioidentical melatonin. It seems like a lot more direct and a lot safer than taking a synthetic analog hoping to regenerate my pineal gland to produce melatonin
endogenously.

it depends on where your looking for your peer review, the system in the ex soviet union is totally different to the west, also as has been said most of the research done in the east is almost a grey area it seems most places in the west don't even read it or test the results for themselves unless they can see something they may be able to patent and use themselves

in the east they have a different mindset, very little would be reviewed that way, when the top Biochemist in the country says black is white everyone agree's, under their system because of the way it works he is the peer,

nor would they see the need to review it except possibly at a much later date, and he would be the first to be asked and sent the paper if there was a different outcome from his results there may be discussion in the soviet bio or medical journals but that's as far as peer review goes, the research is mostly done in universities and is research for researches sake,

and the universities are funded by the Govt..,and as far as i know most of their pharma companies are still Govt. owned controlled and funded,

despite the iron curtain coming down things have not really changed much in that regard,some of the more prestigious places will have a great deal of more modern equipment but outside of those it's hand me down stuff,
i was in Khelmintsky in the Ukraine in 2006 and in the medical facility there they were still using a centrifuge bought second hand from the west and was manufactured in 1955,

[Andey]

Sciwalk wrote:
" As for the Melatonin, the AGAG is not Melantonin and is not supplementing Melatonin in any way. Rather it actually gets your pineal gland to start producing more"
This study produced by the makers of Epitalon showed that 11 years ago but hasn't been replicated by anyone else since to my knowledge.
http://www.mendeley....cent-monkeys-1/
Yes, the pineal gland becomes impaired as we age partially because it calcifies.
If there was unbiased peer reviewed evidence that AGAG has the ability to " regenerate " the pineal gland, that would be interesting.
I will continue to take bioidentical melatonin. It seems like a lot more direct and a lot safer than taking a synthetic analog hoping to regenerate my pineal gland to produce melatonin
endogenously.

it depends on where your looking for your peer review, the system in the ex soviet union is totally different to the west, also as has been said most of the research done in the east is almost a grey area it seems most places in the west don't even read it or test the results for themselves unless they can see something they may be able to patent and use themselves

in the east they have a different mindset, very little would be reviewed that way, when the top Biochemist in the country says black is white everyone agree's, under their system because of the way it works he is the peer,

nor would they see the need to review it except possibly at a much later date, and he would be the first to be asked and sent the paper if there was a different outcome from his results there may be discussion in the soviet bio or medical journals but that's as far as peer review goes, the research is mostly done in universities and is research for researches sake,

and the universities are funded by the Govt..,and as far as i know most of their pharma companies are still Govt. owned controlled and funded,

despite the iron curtain coming down things have not really changed much in that regard,some of the more prestigious places will have a great deal of more modern equipment but outside of those it's hand me down stuff,
i was in Khelmintsky in the Ukraine in 2006 and in the medical facility there they were still using a centrifuge bought second hand from the west and was manufactured in 1955,

All exUSSR countries inherits drug registration procedure that does not require random double blind placebo controlled trials. If you adds that price for quality ICH GCP study on humans is around $0.5m in Russia its understandable why you see almost zero such studies in Russia etc.
I didnt know any goverment owned pharma company here but it simply does not make any sense to do such expensive studies for them if it not needed for legislation. Now it looks that situation is the dead end - more and more local drugs with dubious effiency and weak science behind them appears and on the other hand even promising drugs cannot spread from local market without proper studies.
As I wrote before in this thread I am surprised that Epitalon has so much of science support and studies in Russia and you absolutely cannot buy even a gram of it locally. (it have a drug registration)
May be its not so safe and this is a cause ?