83 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

I’m currently considering doing a comprehensive personal testing of CEREBROLYSIN at the 10ml dosage administered daily via intramuscular injection for a prolonged time period (exactly how long depending upon how I respond to it).

I've read the entire CEREBROLYSIN thread here: http://www.longecity...1-cerebrolysin/

But what I would really like to know is, if money were no object, does CEREBROLYSIN in fact NEED to be cycled?

From what I have understood so far about CEREBROLYSIN’s composition (low-molecular-weight peptides and free amino acids in solution derived from pig brains… yummy! ) and its mechanism of action (neurotrophy, resulting in pleiotropic effects, including: neuronal survival, neuroprotection, neuroplasticity and neurogenesis) I have concluded that the suggested dosing regimen involving CYCLING IS IN FACT NOT NECESSARY but is recommended likely for economic reasons (given it is pretty expensive stuff and studies have indicated sustained residual therapeutic effects upon cessation) as opposed to that of necessity.

So the question I’d like answered is: if money is no object, DOES CEREBROLYSIN IN FACT NEED TO BE CYCLED?

Thoughts?

Edited by ScienceGuy, 07 January 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Gamerzneed]

Didn't you say in the other cerebrolysin thread that you took it everyday for a lot of years?

[ScienceGuy]

Didn't you say in the other cerebrolysin thread that you took it everyday for a lot of years?

No, I said in the cerebrolysin thread that I'd been self-adminstering intramuscular injections every day for over 18 years and never had an infection. This was in response to someone warning of potential risk of self-administering intramuscular injections being that of possible infection, which they had experienced.

My daily intramuscular injections to date have not included CEREBROLYSIN as I have not tried it yet, but intend to do so imminently...

I should add that I intend to carry out a fully comprehensive self-trial of the higher 10ml per day dosage over a prolonged period, and I do not intend to take any breaks or cycle it unless someone responding to this thread convinces me otherwise... and I will of course post feedback regarding my user experiences, including what (if any) therapeutic effects I notice, specifically relating to those associated with cognition, and endevour to supply other useful information such as whether or not the effects are consistent (i.e. does any tolerance develop to its effects, which due to its meshanism of action I do not believe it will, in fact I believe its efficacy may compound over time) and whether or not in my opinion it is worth the cost.

What I am seeking to ascertain via this thread is confirmation whether or not there are any substantiated reasons why I should not administer the CEREBROLYSIN every day indefinitely WITHOUT CYCLING.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 07 January 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Gamerzneed]

Dang, it sounded almost as if you took it.

[Synaptic-Enthusiastic]

I haven´t been able to come up with a reasonable answer to that very same question yet. There is nothing I´ve found in the available literature that indicates a necessity to stop the administration of the substance. Users and doctors that talk about the "break" periods, mention something along the lines of "giving the brain a break"...However It´s reasonable that the administration of cerebrolysin does not tax the brain or represents any stress to the organ whatsoever. If that were to be the case, the only reasons left for the "need" of cycling that I cant think of would be:

1. The possible risks, tissue damages and discomfort of daily injections (either IM or IV) -That don´t seem to be of any consequence to you,SicenceGuy. I´m currently doing two gluteal IM injections a day, would you recommend given your 18 + years of experience to change the site of injection?-
2. The price of theraphy.
3. The possible, undocumented, unknown effects of uninterrupted administration versus the known beneficial effects of clinical data and it´s timeframes. --From the medical standpoint if you´re not dying, seriously debilitated or with excruciating pain there is no point or proper ethics in experimenting with anything.-

[ScienceGuy]

I haven´t been able to come up with a reasonable answer to that very same question yet. There is nothing I´ve found in the available literature that indicates a necessity to stop the administration of the substance. Users and doctors that talk about the "break" periods, mention something along the lines of "giving the brain a break"...However It´s reasonable that the administration of cerebrolysin does not tax the brain or represents any stress to the organ whatsoever. If that were to be the case, the only reasons left for the "need" of cycling that I cant think of would be:

1. The possible risks, tissue damages and discomfort of daily injections (either IM or IV) -That don´t seem to be of any consequence to you,SicenceGuy. I´m currently doing two gluteal IM injections a day, would you recommend given your 18 + years of experience to change the site of injection?-
2. The price of theraphy.
3. The possible, undocumented, unknown effects of uninterrupted administration versus the known beneficial effects of clinical data and it´s timeframes. --From the medical standpoint if you´re not dying, seriously debilitated or with excruciating pain there is no point or proper ethics in experimenting with anything.-

I essentially concur with your findings. Due to CEREBROLYSIN's mechanism of action being nutrient provision, as opposed to receptor agonism for example, one can indeed deduce that there is not a necessity to stop the administration of the substance.

RE: "I´m currently doing two gluteal IM injections a day, would you recommend given your 18 + years of experience to change the site of injection?" - YES, otherwise you will inevitably induce scar tissue formation and accumulation within the injection site which you DO NOT want. If 3ml+ in volume, rotate with your quadriceps muscles; if less than 3ml volume you can include other smaller muscle groups (e.g. deltoids, biceps, triceps etc.)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 10 January 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Synaptic-Enthusiastic]

Thanks, I tought something like that might happen. Im actually a little worried because the sensitivity in the area of injection has decreased which must be a sign of some scar tissue formation; it´s time to change the site, then. They are 5 ml shots if the substance is to be refrigerated the least possible ammount of time. I had a bad experience with the one time I switched to the quadricep muscle for a B12 shot: I fainted because of the pain. At first I tought It was something much more serious. Another thing about cerebrolysin´s effects: It might result in something of higher pain perception -maybe due to enhanced sense of touch or enhanced synapse of the pain receptors- which may have contributed to my fainting that time)

Just to be vigilant, what are the consequences of accumulation within the injection site? (I think this is the main reason for the rest period...)

Thanks!

[sunshinefrost]

I also believe, from experience, that it is meant to give the brain a break. I had trouble sleeping after a while. Another reason is that the action of cerebrolysin seems to last for months after the intake. In my case i did feel a slight lasting effect of clarity after I completed a cycle but the effects are way more subtle... way less obvious as the "on"days.

If the everpharma suggests to cycle it every trimestres, there must be a reason... or, they may just be playing safe because they are unsure of the longterm effects of neurotrophic factors on the human brain. One thing for sure, if i had alzheimer, i'd be on it 365 days a year.

This is, in fact, one of the reason that i will be trying the pill form.

Anybody else knows the effects of longterm neurotrophics on the brain ?

[Ark]

Please make sure to keep good records/notes of everything your doing over the year so we can take notes, good luck!

[ScienceGuy]

Please make sure to keep good records/notes of everything your doing over the year so we can take notes, good luck!

Don't worry... I'm practically OCD about that sort of thing!

[ScienceGuy]

I also believe, from experience, that it is meant to give the brain a break. I had trouble sleeping after a while. Another reason is that the action of cerebrolysin seems to last for months after the intake. In my case i did feel a slight lasting effect of clarity after I completed a cycle but the effects are way more subtle... way less obvious as the "on"days.

If the everpharma suggests to cycle it every trimestres, there must be a reason... or, they may just be playing safe because they are unsure of the longterm effects of neurotrophic factors on the human brain. One thing for sure, if i had alzheimer, i'd be on it 365 days a year.

This is, in fact, one of the reason that i will be trying the pill form.

Anybody else knows the effects of longterm neurotrophics on the brain ?

What I will be intending to ascertain will be what dosage can be administered daily, continuously. If it transpires that the 10ml dose is 'too much' then instead of taking 'off' days I will simply reduce the dosage whilst maintaining the daily administration, thereby attaining ongoing consistency regarding the therepeutic benefits, as opposed to peaks and troughs.

I used exactly this method with GEROVITAL H3, for which I ascertained that the optimal daily dosage for me (i.e. the 'sweet spot') is precisely 3.6ml daily. GEROVITAL H3, like CEREBROLYSIN, is recommended to be cycled, but there is nothing that specifically necessitates it being cycled; and I found that a whole 5ml vial daily is 'too much', whereas 3.6ml is spot on.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 11 January 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[hooter]

The following post has been retracted as inaccurate by the author; it remains here to maintain thread consistency.

According to the Vienna neurologists I have talked to (where Cerebrolysin is used the most) they said that intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic.

He said that he's never seen a single case where it was administered IM, because IV is so much more effective. He pretty much said intramuscular is almost a waste. Keep this in mind.

This is why it's only recommended for 20 to 30 days, because trust me you will not be able to find veins to stick it in to, you'll have insane trouble sleeping and will look like a pin cushion.

I've had 9 Cerebrolysin 10ml injections so far, intravenuous administration. Astounding stuff. It improved my eyesight and perceptual 'framerate' significantly.

Edited by niner, 14 January 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[sunshinefrost]

IM may be less effective but it still does work. But i like your theory on why it's prescribed for 4weeks only.

[ScienceGuy]

According to the Vienna neurologists I have talked to (where Cerebrolysin is used the most) they said that intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic.

With the utmost respect to the Vienna neurologists, from one scientist to another that is complete and utter TWADDLE.

He said that he's never seen a single case where it was administered IM, because IV is so much more effective. He pretty much said intramuscular is almost a waste.

Yes, IV will indeed typically always be more effective than IM, but that DOES NOT mean IM is not effective.

Stating that "intramuscular is almost a waste" is akin to a hyperbole and is wholly irresponsible.

When you next speak to the Vienna neurologists tell them from me that they should be ashamed of themselves!

Incidentally, I have a personal friend who is a neuroscientist and he concurs with my perspective on this matter.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 13 January 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[insider007]

It may need to be cycled as a result of producing too much creatine for the kidneys. I would not do 10 ml IM injections for more than a month at a time. It is advisable to take a break in between for two to three months so as not to tax your kidneys too much.

On the topic of IM vs. IV administration, IM will of course result in a slower absorption. I theorize that that might be better for the kidneys than a large IV administration. For a healthy adult, there is no reason to go over 10 ml per day. Perhaps, for a person with Alzheimer's Disease or stroke, higher doses of 30 ml to 50 ml may be helpful.

Does anyone have any data on cerebrolysin and whether it may cause epilepsy in non-epileptics? Also, my only other concern is whether cerebrolysin might contain prions. My concern arises as to whether by products of cows might be fed to pigs that produce cerebrolysin. Is there any research on this? Has the pharmaceutical company realized this potential and sourced only from pigs that are not fed other animals in their food products? These are serious questions people should be asking about this substance.

[hooter]

According to the Vienna neurologists I have talked to (where Cerebrolysin is used the most) they said that intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic.

With the utmost respect to the Vienna neurologists, from one scientist to another that is complete and utter TWADDLE.

He said that he's never seen a single case where it was administered IM, because IV is so much more effective. He pretty much said intramuscular is almost a waste.

Yes, IV will indeed typically always be more effective than IM, but that DOES NOT mean IM is not effective.

Stating that "intramuscular is almost a waste" is akin to a hyperbole and is wholly irresponsible.

When you next speak to the Vienna neurologists tell them from me that they should be ashamed of themselves!

Incidentally, I have a personal friend who is a neuroscientist and he concurs with my perspective on this matter.

Is there any data on how much more effective it is? Take what I said with a grain of salt, it's only concerning the clinical treatment of Alzheimer's and post-neurosurgery repair, not intake as a nootropic. They simply never use IM for clinical purposes, even if the difference is miniscule.

I might have mistakenly articulated his thoughts in an inaccurate manner and some detail was lost in translation from German.

I'm really interested in some data about this. I remember there was another neurologist somewhere in the states who claimed from experience IV is a lot more effective than IM concerning Cerebrolysin specifically. Ah, here it is:

"My Husband has read many studies and comparisons but his experience here in the office is what he relies on most. Based on those experiences it is very clear that IV infusions (5ml Cerebrolysin in 250 ml Hartman sol, 40-50 drops per min) are much more effective than IM injections. A large portion of our patients are North Americans who live in Mexico part time. They recieve the IV infusions while they are in Mexico and Give themselves IM injections when they are in the states."

It might just be the endorphine high from IV administration that makes the patients prefer it.

From the reports about IM administration, it does not seem as prominent as the IV effects I've been experiences. But this is all impossible to compare and I'm aware of that.

I'm sure IM cerebrolysin is at least moderately effective since it explains intramuscular use on the packaging, and that route is preferred for children. Personally I always go for overkill, so doctors giving me IVs is where it's at. I would never take more than 10ml a day because I don't think I'd be able to sleep in 3000 years.

Either way, IV cerebrolysin gives you an opiate high not dissimilar to morphine so that's the way I'll take it. At least in my case.

Edited by hooter, 13 January 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[Gamerzneed]

According to the Vienna neurologists I have talked to (where Cerebrolysin is used the most) they said that intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic.

With the utmost respect to the Vienna neurologists, from one scientist to another that is complete and utter TWADDLE.

He said that he's never seen a single case where it was administered IM, because IV is so much more effective. He pretty much said intramuscular is almost a waste.

Yes, IV will indeed typically always be more effective than IM, but that DOES NOT mean IM is not effective.

Stating that "intramuscular is almost a waste" is akin to a hyperbole and is wholly irresponsible.

When you next speak to the Vienna neurologists tell them from me that they should be ashamed of themselves!

Incidentally, I have a personal friend who is a neuroscientist and he concurs with my perspective on this matter.

Is there any data on how much more effective it is? Take what I said with a grain of salt, it's only concerning the clinical treatment of Alzheimer's and post-neurosurgery repair, not intake as a nootropic. They simply never use IM for clinical purposes, even if the difference is miniscule.

I might have mistakenly articulated his thoughts in an inaccurate manner and some detail was lost in translation from German.

I'm really interested in some data about this. I remember there was another neurologist somewhere in the states who claimed from experience IV is a lot more effective than IM concerning Cerebrolysin specifically. Ah, here it is:

"My Husband has read many studies and comparisons but his experience here in the office is what he relies on most. Based on those experiences it is very clear that IV infusions (5ml Cerebrolysin in 250 ml Hartman sol, 40-50 drops per min) are much more effective than IM injections. A large portion of our patients are North Americans who live in Mexico part time. They recieve the IV infusions while they are in Mexico and Give themselves IM injections when they are in the states."

It might just be the endorphine high from IV administration that makes the patients prefer it.

From the reports about IM administration, it does not seem as prominent as the IV effects I've been experiences. But this is all impossible to compare and I'm aware of that.

I'm sure IM cerebrolysin is at least moderately effective since it explains intramuscular use on the packaging, and that route is preferred for children. Personally I always go for overkill, so doctors giving me IVs is where it's at. I would never take more than 10ml a day because I don't think I'd be able to sleep in 3000 years.

Either way, IV cerebrolysin gives you an opiate high not dissimilar to morphine so that's the way I'll take it. At least in my case.

would it be practical if you were to give yourself IV injection/infusions at home? and is it dangerous in any way?

[hooter]

would it be practical if you were to give yourself IV injection/infusions at home? and is it dangerous in any way?

I would never do it on my own. I have a bit of a self-injection phobia. I just go to my general practitioner before his practice officially opens. In that time, patients usually get infusions and IVs. He does it in roughly one minute and I'm done. But I'm getting Cerebrolysin on an official prescription in the country where it was invented.

I have been prescribed it by a psychiatric neurologist as a last resort for the extremely off-label use of treating refractory (treatment resistant) depression with brain fog as the main symptom.

Thousands of heroin junkies manage to IV themselves all the time, but personally I wouldn't do it to myself.

Maybe wait for someone more experienced with this to reply. The only information I can give you is that you need to pay good attention to disinfection and use a butterfly needle for a slow injection or you will get side effects such as tremors, dizziness, nausea, general feeling of unwell, blood pressure fluctuations, etc.

Edited by hooter, 14 January 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[Gamerzneed]

Thousands of heroin junkies manage to IV themselves all the time, but personally I wouldn't do it to myself.

Maybe wait for someone more experienced with this to reply. The only information I can give you is that you need to pay good attention to disinfection and use a butterfly needle for a slow injection or you will get side effects such as tremors, dizziness, nausea, general feeling of unwell, blood pressure fluctuations, etc.

Is the purpose of the butterfly needle to let the injection fluid go a lot slower or something so you don't experience the effects quoted above or something? And won't you also develop track marks like these from too many injections like what heroin addicts get? http://www.medscape....468419.fig5.jpg (track marks)

[ScienceGuy]

would it be practical if you were to give yourself IV injection/infusions at home? and is it dangerous in any way?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Please note that there is NOTHING wrong with administration by INTRAMUSCULAR injection. It is completely effective.

I am afraid that anyone who says otherwise (you note I am deliberately trying to be diplomatic here by not naming names) is talking out of their backside...

[ScienceGuy]

Take what I said with a grain of salt... I might have mistakenly articulated his thoughts in an inaccurate manner and some detail was lost in translation from German.

HOOTER,

Thank you for acknowledging the inaccuracy of your previous posting. That takes some balls to do that, so nice one!

You will have to excuse me getting a tad irritated, but your previous posting has to be one of THE most IRRESPONSIBLE posts on this entire forum.

Please kindly bear in mind that other individuals reading the information on this forum will take note of what is posted, and as such your posting would very well have caused those reading it to INCORRECTLY think that CEREBROLYSIN is not worth bothering with due to inferring from your INCORRECT posting that IM administration is useless.

So, please kindly take greater care in future regarding the ACCURACY of the information that you post on this forum. OK?

I'm really interested in some data about this. I remember there was another neurologist somewhere in the states who claimed from experience IV is a lot more effective than IM concerning Cerebrolysin specifically. Ah, here it is:

"My Husband has read many studies and comparisons but his experience here in the office is what he relies on most. Based on those experiences it is very clear that IV infusions (5ml Cerebrolysin in 250 ml Hartman sol, 40-50 drops per min) are much more effective than IM injections. A large portion of our patients are North Americans who live in Mexico part time. They recieve the IV infusions while they are in Mexico and Give themselves IM injections when they are in the states."

I’m sorry to rain on your parade… But you honestly call THAT “data”?

That’s nothing more than ‘she-said-he-said’ hearsay.

I mean come ON! Seriously?

Oh for heaven’s sake… Even if it was the ‘husband’ himself documenting his “experience in the office” that would ONLY be a single unsubstantiated anecdotal report…
Therefore, your so-called ‘data’ is in reality nothing more than hearsay referring to an anecdotal report

Since you have stated that you are “really interested in some data about this”, here’s a few published clinical studies that used CEREBROLYSIN administered via INTRAMUSCULAR injection, demonstrating efficacy when administered as such, and hence debunking your previous wholly incorrect and irresponsible statements that “intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic” and “intramuscular is almost a waste”:

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2010;110(4):37-40.
[Neuropeptides in the treatment of optic nerve atrophy in children].
[Article in Russian]
Guseva MR.
Abstract
The study aimed at investigating the therapeutic effect of the cerebrolysin on partial optic nerve atrophy in children. Six hundreds and forty-six children aged from 8 weeks to 18 years have been studied. Cerebrolysin was injected intramuscularly in dose 0,1 ml per 1 kg of body mass daily and retrobulbar in dose 0,3-0,5 ml; an irrigation system was used to treat a posterior segment of the eye. The illness duration was 10-15 days. The positive effect of the drug, in particular with the following optic nerve stimulation, has been shown. Peculiarities of action of cerebrolysin depending on the initial vision acuity and etiology of disease are emphasized.
PMID: 20517208

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2006;106(2):21-5.
[An effect of long-term cerebrolysin therapy in combination with neuroleptics on behavioral and cognitive disturbances in endogenous childhood autism].
[Article in Russian]
Radzivil MG, Bashina VM.
Abstract
An open prospective clinical study included 25 patients with childhood autism aged from 3 to 8 years (mean age 5 years 11 months). Patients received 2 therapeutic courses (15 intramuscularCerebrolysin injections of 1.0 ml every other day per course) with 2 months interval and basic antipsychotic therapy using typical neuroleptics in age-adjusted dosages. The duration of the study was 180 days. Significant or very significant improvement was achieved after the 1st Cerebrolysin course in 38% patients, after the 2nd course in more than 50% and to the end of the follow-up (180th day) in 71% of patients. There were no cases of deterioration during the trial. The autism severity as measured by the CARS scale consistently decreased from the day 0 to the day 180--from 37.7 to 32.6 scores, respectively (p < 0.001) in all assessments as compared with the baseline. To the end of the study, the patients demonstrated a significant decrease in mental retardation by 0.2 years. A statistically significant improvement was achieved in cognitive activity, attention during task performing as well as in self-service (by 0.3 years), receptive and expressive speech, cognitive performance and perception (by 0.2 years), fine motor function (by 0.1 years). The combined therapy comprising neuroleptics and Cerebrolysin double course can be recommended for correction of behavioral disorders and cognitive dysfunction in patients with mild moderate and moderate/severe autism.
PMID: 16548370

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 1998;98(1):27-30.
[Effects of cerebrolysin on the oxidant homeostasis, the content of microelements and electrolytes in children with minimal brain dysfunction].
[Article in Russian]
Gromova OA, Avdeenko TV, Burtsev EM, Skal'nyĭ AV, Solov'ev OI.
Abstract
In 36 children of 3-8 years old with minimal cerebral dysfunction there were evaluated both concentrations of malonic dialdehyde in blood plasma, erythrocytes and platelets as well as the content of 25 elements (K, Mg, Ca, Na, P, Se, Zn, Co, Cr, Cu, Fe, Mn, Mo, Si, Li, Ni, V, Pb, Sn, Cd, Al, As, Be, Bi, Ti) in hairs. These indices were estimated both before and after course of cerebrolysin therapy (the a dose 2-5 ml intramuscularly during 1 month). There was observed positive influence of the drug on the clinical manifestations of the disease, oxidant and elements homeostasis. Nuclear-emission analysis of the elements' composition of cerebrolysin revealed quite high content in the drug of magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, and selenium which had neuroactive and antioxidant properties.
PMID: 9505400

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further to this I could quite happily provide literally THOUSANDS of published medical studies demonstrating the efficacy of drugs and substances of a similar physical composition to CEREBROLYSIN when administered via INTRAMUSCULAR injection as compared with INTRAVENOUS administration.

If you truly understood what are the biological processes that occur following IM and IV administration you would never for an instant have considered posting such a ridiculous nonsense.

From the reports about IM administration, it does not seem as prominent as the IV effects I've been experiences. But this is all impossible to compare and I'm aware of that.

Actually, it is very EASY to compare, which can simply be done by accurately measuring the varying plasma levels over time following administration by both methods.

As I have previously stated IV will typically always have superiority to IM, but this is typically specifically limited to its faster onset speed and achieving a higher peak serum concentration INITIALLY; however, it is similarly typical for the serum concentration after circa an hour after administration to be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods (N.B. I could provide you with endless published medical studies relating to specific drugs where this has been demonstrated).

Consequently, the greater ‘hit’ that you are experiencing with the CEREBROLYSIN when administered via IV is almost certainly due to the faster onset speed and achieving (initially only) a higher peak serum concentration.

However, it should be noted that the serum concentrations over the longer term almost certainly will be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods; and hence the overall long-term nootropic effects should ALSO be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods.

I'm sure IM cerebrolysin is at least moderately effective since it explains intramuscular use on the packaging, and that route is preferred for children. Personally I always go for overkill, so doctors giving me IVs is where it's at. I would never take more than 10ml a day because I don't think I'd be able to sleep in 3000 years.

Which makes it even more astounding that you would include such TWADDLE in your previous post, doesn't it?

Either way, IV cerebrolysin gives you an opiate high not dissimilar to morphine so that's the way I'll take it. At least in my case.

Okaayyy… Well, I think that pretty much says it all really, doesn’t it?

[hooter]

Take what I said with a grain of salt... I might have mistakenly articulated his thoughts in an inaccurate manner and some detail was lost in translation from German.

HOOTER,

Thank you for acknowledging the inaccuracy of your previous posting. That takes some balls to do that, so nice one!

You will have to excuse me getting a tad irritated, but your previous posting has to be one of THE most IRRESPONSIBLE posts on this entire forum.

Please kindly bear in mind that other individuals reading the information on this forum will take note of what is posted, and as such your posting would very well have caused those reading it to INCORRECTLY think that CEREBROLYSIN is not worth bothering with due to inferring from your INCORRECT posting that IM administration is useless.

So, please kindly take greater care in future regarding the ACCURACY of the information that you post on this forum. OK?

I'm really interested in some data about this. I remember there was another neurologist somewhere in the states who claimed from experience IV is a lot more effective than IM concerning Cerebrolysin specifically. Ah, here it is:

"My Husband has read many studies and comparisons but his experience here in the office is what he relies on most. Based on those experiences it is very clear that IV infusions (5ml Cerebrolysin in 250 ml Hartman sol, 40-50 drops per min) are much more effective than IM injections. A large portion of our patients are North Americans who live in Mexico part time. They recieve the IV infusions while they are in Mexico and Give themselves IM injections when they are in the states."

I’m sorry to rain on your parade… But you honestly call THAT “data”?

That’s nothing more than ‘she-said-he-said’ hearsay.

I mean come ON! Seriously?

Oh for heaven’s sake… Even if it was the ‘husband’ himself documenting his “experience in the office” that would ONLY be a single unsubstantiated anecdotal report…
Therefore, your so-called ‘data’ is in reality nothing more than hearsay referring to an anecdotal report

Since you have stated that you are “really interested in some data about this”, here’s a few published clinical studies that used CEREBROLYSIN administered via INTRAMUSCULAR injection, demonstrating efficacy when administered as such, and hence debunking your previous wholly incorrect and irresponsible statements that “intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic” and “intramuscular is almost a waste”:

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2010;110(4):37-40.
[Neuropeptides in the treatment of optic nerve atrophy in children].
[Article in Russian]
Guseva MR.
Abstract
The study aimed at investigating the therapeutic effect of the cerebrolysin on partial optic nerve atrophy in children. Six hundreds and forty-six children aged from 8 weeks to 18 years have been studied. Cerebrolysin was injected intramuscularly in dose 0,1 ml per 1 kg of body mass daily and retrobulbar in dose 0,3-0,5 ml; an irrigation system was used to treat a posterior segment of the eye. The illness duration was 10-15 days. The positive effect of the drug, in particular with the following optic nerve stimulation, has been shown. Peculiarities of action of cerebrolysin depending on the initial vision acuity and etiology of disease are emphasized.
PMID: 20517208

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 2006;106(2):21-5.
[An effect of long-term cerebrolysin therapy in combination with neuroleptics on behavioral and cognitive disturbances in endogenous childhood autism].
[Article in Russian]
Radzivil MG, Bashina VM.
Abstract
An open prospective clinical study included 25 patients with childhood autism aged from 3 to 8 years (mean age 5 years 11 months). Patients received 2 therapeutic courses (15 intramuscularCerebrolysin injections of 1.0 ml every other day per course) with 2 months interval and basic antipsychotic therapy using typical neuroleptics in age-adjusted dosages. The duration of the study was 180 days. Significant or very significant improvement was achieved after the 1st Cerebrolysin course in 38% patients, after the 2nd course in more than 50% and to the end of the follow-up (180th day) in 71% of patients. There were no cases of deterioration during the trial. The autism severity as measured by the CARS scale consistently decreased from the day 0 to the day 180--from 37.7 to 32.6 scores, respectively (p < 0.001) in all assessments as compared with the baseline. To the end of the study, the patients demonstrated a significant decrease in mental retardation by 0.2 years. A statistically significant improvement was achieved in cognitive activity, attention during task performing as well as in self-service (by 0.3 years), receptive and expressive speech, cognitive performance and perception (by 0.2 years), fine motor function (by 0.1 years). The combined therapy comprising neuroleptics and Cerebrolysin double course can be recommended for correction of behavioral disorders and cognitive dysfunction in patients with mild moderate and moderate/severe autism.
PMID: 16548370

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Zh Nevrol Psikhiatr Im S S Korsakova. 1998;98(1):27-30.
[Effects of cerebrolysin on the oxidant homeostasis, the content of microelements and electrolytes in children with minimal brain dysfunction].
[Article in Russian]
Gromova OA, Avdeenko TV, Burtsev EM, Skal'nyĭ AV, Solov'ev OI.
Abstract
In 36 children of 3-8 years old with minimal cerebral dysfunction there were evaluated both concentrations of malonic dialdehyde in blood plasma, erythrocytes and platelets as well as the content of 25 elements (K, Mg, Ca, Na, P, Se, Zn, Co, Cr, Cu, Fe, Mn, Mo, Si, Li, Ni, V, Pb, Sn, Cd, Al, As, Be, Bi, Ti) in hairs. These indices were estimated both before and after course of cerebrolysin therapy (the a dose 2-5 ml intramuscularly during 1 month). There was observed positive influence of the drug on the clinical manifestations of the disease, oxidant and elements homeostasis. Nuclear-emission analysis of the elements' composition of cerebrolysin revealed quite high content in the drug of magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, and selenium which had neuroactive and antioxidant properties.
PMID: 9505400

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Further to this I could quite happily provide literally THOUSANDS of published medical studies demonstrating the efficacy of drugs and substances of a similar physical composition to CEREBROLYSIN when administered via INTRAMUSCULAR injection as compared with INTRAVENOUS administration.

If you truly understood what are the biological processes that occur following IM and IV administration you would never for an instant have considered posting such a ridiculous nonsense.

From the reports about IM administration, it does not seem as prominent as the IV effects I've been experiences. But this is all impossible to compare and I'm aware of that.

Actually, it is very EASY to compare, which can simply be done by accurately measuring the varying plasma levels over time following administration by both methods.

As I have previously stated IV will typically always have superiority to IM, but this is typically specifically limited to its faster onset speed and achieving a higher peak serum concentration INITIALLY; however, it is similarly typical for the serum concentration after circa an hour after administration to be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods (N.B. I could provide you with endless published medical studies relating to specific drugs where this has been demonstrated).

Consequently, the greater ‘hit’ that you are experiencing with the CEREBROLYSIN when administered via IV is almost certainly due to the faster onset speed and achieving (initially only) a higher peak serum concentration.

However, it should be noted that the serum concentrations over the longer term almost certainly will be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods; and hence the overall long-term nootropic effects should ALSO be PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL for BOTH administration methods.

I'm sure IM cerebrolysin is at least moderately effective since it explains intramuscular use on the packaging, and that route is preferred for children. Personally I always go for overkill, so doctors giving me IVs is where it's at. I would never take more than 10ml a day because I don't think I'd be able to sleep in 3000 years.

Which makes it even more astounding that you would include such TWADDLE in your previous post, doesn't it?

Either way, IV cerebrolysin gives you an opiate high not dissimilar to morphine so that's the way I'll take it. At least in my case.

Okaayyy… Well, I think that pretty much says it all really, doesn’t it?

It's obvious the anecdotal reports aren't data, I don't think I ever said they were. I just made the mistake of taking a neurologist's word over any autonomous research on my part. Apologies.

I'm glad I irritated you enough into providing some actual data. I've already conceded the point, which was not necessarily mine.

When referring to the impossibility to judge which one is stronger, I'm of course referring to a subjective experience. I don't have the equipment do to serum analysis.

I've honestly been told this "TWADDLE" by a doctor, I kid you not! So I'll print out your post and dangle it in his nose. He straight up said they don't use IM because it's too weak. Thinking about it critically, I should have noticed the flaw in his thinking. Unfortunately I was neither on piracetam nor cerebrolysin at that time.

I'll make sure to edit my post.

Thanks you for the effort.

[hooter]

Now I regret not doing my own research and just blindly listening to a neurologist just because he has a PhD. I honestly have this information from people who are supposed to be the most informed about this. I apologize for spreading this drivel. I wish I could edit my post but for some reason I cannot.

Personally I am aware of the IM/IV serum concentration differences, trust me. But I took the word of a doctor over my own judgement, because I assumed based on his statement that it functions differently with Cerebrolysin. I actually vaguely recall a study that said IM and IV were equal in Cerebrolysin, but having a doctor talk at me has unjustly swayed my view and made me doubt my memory.

I never meant to state anything I said as 'data', I thought it would be obvious it's anecdotal and that I'm rather searching for information than positing anything as fact. I did not mean to come off as 'certain' about anything.

The first post was certainly misplaced, and I now realize how dull it is to be a megaphone for someone elses ideas without a truly critical approach even if they are an expert in their field. Depression and naivety go hand in hand.

Thank you for taking the time. Note that I am by no means offended and in fact highly appreciate you taking your time to prove me wrong. The most important thing to me is being right, and I will fundamentally alter all belief systems if fact decides that it need be.

I have also requested per report to have the posts removed so that nobody else will be confused by them.

My apologies.

Edited by hooter, 14 January 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

Thousands of heroin junkies manage to IV themselves all the time, but personally I wouldn't do it to myself.

Maybe wait for someone more experienced with this to reply. The only information I can give you is that you need to pay good attention to disinfection and use a butterfly needle for a slow injection or you will get side effects such as tremors, dizziness, nausea, general feeling of unwell, blood pressure fluctuations, etc.

Is the purpose of the butterfly needle to let the injection fluid go a lot slower or something so you don't experience the effects quoted above or something? And won't you also develop track marks like these from too many injections like what heroin addicts get? http://www.medscape....468419.fig5.jpg (track marks)

Gamerzneed, seriously you DON'T WANT OR NEED to get into attempting INTRAVENOUS self-administration of CEREBROLYSIN. To do so is potentially DANGEROUS and DAMAGING; far greater infection risks versus IM aside, if you start injecting CEREBROLYSIN regularly via IV you will end up with your veins being DESTROYED through a process called sclerosis; this is what happens to junkies all the time. Is that REALLY what you want? Well I'll let you answer that one for yourself...

INTRAMUSCULAR administration will be practically equally effective over the long-term, and more importantly as well as being highly effective, it is simple and SAFE to self-administer; and it won't cause your veins to become sclerosed!

[ScienceGuy]

Now I regret not doing my own research and just blindly listening to a neurologist just because he has a PhD. I honestly have this information from people who are supposed to be the most informed about this. I apologize for spreading this drivel. I wish I could edit my post but for some reason I cannot.

Personally I am aware of the IM/IV serum concentration differences, trust me. But I took the word of a doctor over my own judgement, because I assumed based on his statement that it functions differently with Cerebrolysin. I actually vaguely recall a study that said IM and IV were equal in Cerebrolysin, but having a doctor talk at me has unjustly swayed my view and made me doubt my memory.

I never meant to state anything I said as 'data', I thought it would be obvious it's anecdotal and that I'm rather searching for information than positing anything as fact. I did not mean to come off as 'certain' about anything.

The first post was certainly misplaced, and I now realize how dull it is to be a megaphone for someone elses ideas without a truly critical approach even if they are an expert in their field. Depression and naivety go hand in hand.

Thank you for taking the time. Note that I am by no means offended and in fact highly appreciate you taking your time to prove me wrong. The most important thing to me is being right, and I will fundamentally alter all belief systems if fact decides that it need be.

I have also requested per report to have the posts removed so that nobody else will be confused by them.

My apologies.

Apology accepted!

Seriously though, I applaud your humility HOOTER, most people haven't the balls to admit when they make a mistake, and like you say your mistake has simply been believing that when someone with a PhD tells you "intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic" and "intramuscular is almost a waste" that that information is correct, when in this instance, as you yourself say, it is DRIVEL.

As I have already stated there is no question that IV is superior to IM, due to yielding a more rapid onset and higher peak serum concentrations (initially); however, this does NOT mean that IM is in any regard "useless" nor "a waste". IM is most certainly highly therapeutically effective also, as substantiated by medical research and published studies; but since IV has the edge over IM this is why it makes rational sense to opt for administration via IV within clinical practice, which is why that almost always happens. However, since IV is not readily available to the masses nor simple for the general population to self-administer safely, IM is the obvious and best choice for self-administration at home.

I hope you understand why I had to correct you like I did. Other individuals reading your wholly INCORRECT statements that "intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic" and "intramuscular is almost a waste" would INCORRECTLY assume that then need to go the IV route or not bother. You will note that this has ALREADY HAPPENED in at least one person, namely Gamerzneed, who seems to be under the misapprehension that self-administering IV is the best way forward DUE TO YOUR INCORRECT INFORMATION YOU HAVE POSTED. I normally like to keep posts positive, but in this case I felt it important to step in and to correct matters, such that we don't end up with anyone taking stupid and uncessary risks by attempting to self-administer CEREBROLYSIN via IV because they INCORRECTLY think IM is "useless" and "a waste". Hope you understand. OK?

[hooter]

You need to lower your racetam stack it's really getting to your ego. All this science and all these drugs but humility you have not yet learned.

If they're clued enough to order prescription medication illegally off the internet and inject themselves with it, they should at least read the whole thread. I'm not their babysitter.

Edited by hooter, 14 January 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Gamerzneed]

I hope you understand why I had to correct you like I did. Other individuals reading your wholly INCORRECT statements that "intramuscular injection of Cerebrolysin is useless for any other purpose than telling if someone is allergic" and "intramuscular is almost a waste" would INCORRECTLY assume that then need to go the IV route or not bother. You will note that this has ALREADY HAPPENED in at least one person, namely Gamerzneed, who seems to be under the misapprehension that self-administering IV is the best way forward DUE TO YOUR INCORRECT INFORMATION YOU HAVE POSTED. I normally like to keep posts positive, but in this case I felt it important to step in and to correct matters, such that we don't end up with anyone taking stupid and uncessary risks by attempting to self-administer CEREBROLYSIN via IV because they INCORRECTLY think IM is "useless" and "a waste". Hope you understand. OK?

I don't act and believe upon from just 1 post (the one you said was incorrect), and I read through the whole entire Cerebrolysin thread, and understand that most people that were using it used IM injections and all of them had success with it, but since cerebrolysin is so expensive I was wondering how to get the most bang for your buck and that's why I was asking about the IV method. I wish there was more data of IV vs IM, and untill I'm thoroughly informed of pros/cons of IV injection I'm not going anywhere.

Edited by Gamerzneed, 14 January 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

You need to lower your racetam stack it's really getting to your ego. All this science and all these drugs but humility you have not yet learned.

If they're clued enough to order prescription medication illegally off the internet and inject themselves with it, they should at least read the whole thread. I'm not their babysitter.

Hey Hooter,

Don't get me wrong. I myself am not perfect in any way and make mistakes just like the next guy; and as soon as I post something erroneous on this forum, which indubitably is inevitably just a matter of time, you will note that I will readily put my hands up and acknowledge said cock-up. Hopefully this will help you understand me a little better; and perhaps the fact that I am quite happy to impart such information such as the fact that yesterday I happened to travel by train to and from a meeting only to discover upon my return that my shirt was inside out, and had been as such throughout my journeys and the meeting itself... oops!

You appear to have taken my previous post applauding YOUR humility as somehow condescending when in fact it was entirely genuine in intention... Or perhaps you may have misinterpreted, through not fault of your own, my apparently lame attempt at tongue-in-cheek humour? I think this is a good example of just how easy it is for something that is written to be misconstrued, in that if I was actually talking with you in person you would realise that my intentions are nothing but kind hearted, jovial and honorable.

Please kindly note that if I didn't really care I wouldn't have bothered to correct you in the first place; and perhaps that is one of my flaws, in that by caring too much I have been known to stick my nose into something a little too far, when perhaps it would have been better it I hadn't...

Please do take my previous posting for what it actually is, namely A COMPLIMENT; and accept this as MY appology to YOU if it has in any way caused you to take offense on any level.

[ScienceGuy]

I don't act and believe upon from just 1 post (the one you said was incorrect), and I read through the whole entire Cerebrolysin thread, and understand that most people that were using it used IM injections and all of them had success with it, but since cerebrolysin is so expensive I was wondering how to get the most bang for your buck and that's why I was asking about the IV method. I wish there was more data of IV vs IM, and untill I'm thoroughly informed of pros/cons of IV injection I'm not going anywhere.

Great to hear! If only everyone was as sensible and astute as you are.

RE: "since cerebrolysin is so expensive I was wondering how to get the most bang for your buck" - My recommendation would be to proceed with administering CEREBROLYSIN via INTRAMUSCULAR INJECTION and to stack it with other nootropics that potentiate its effects, wherein you find that you need a lower dosage of the CEREBROLYSIN to achieve the same therapeutic beneficial effects as when administered at the higher dosage as monotherapy; and consequently a single vial of CEREBROLYSIN can be spread across multiple doses. I am going to be experimenting myself in this regard and will be sure to post my findings.

Due to CEREBROLYSIN's mechanism of action I am expecting there to be a synergistic effect when combined with certain other nootropics. For example, since you have read the entire CEREBROLYSIN thread you will note some users reporting that PIRACETAM when combined with the CEREBROLYSIN becomes "TOO MUCH", in which instance instead of reducing or eliminating the PIRACETAM dosage I would keep it the same, but lower the CEREBROLYSIN dosage...

Edited by ScienceGuy, 15 January 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Gamerzneed]

Back to the main question if it needs to be cycled........ Russianbear seems to have taken it for 6 months with no serious consequences although there was still some longterm effect issues.

I was taking up to 10 ml of cerebrolysine daily at work though I/M injections, easily for a good 6 months if not more. (Usually in 2 injections, although I've shot 10ml straight up before in one large syringe) Since I worked in 4-day shifts, I'd usually go 4 days on and then 4 days off to cool off my neurons That easily allowed me to handle all the stresses, and I was one of the best at that particular job. Despite having abused illegal drugs in the past and being a frequent cannabis smoker, I experienced little to no "stoner burnout" and was able to concentrate and perform tasks faster than most of my colleagues at the same experience level. After a long 12-hour work day, after which a normal brain turns to mush, I was still fresh and eager to go out with friends/ see girls etc, while otherwise I'd be drained and only wanting to sleep.

So instead of rambling on further, let me just break down some effects and side-effects, short and long term:

-This stuff has a MARKED anti-depressant effect. You basically feel like back in the happiest moments of your childhood. Everyone has had one of those days when they're just "on fire" and "on top of the game". With Cerebrolysine, pretty much every day is like that - you're not overly happy or vegetated like off standard anti-depressants, but you're "on point" at whatever you do. Stuff like your subconscious and conscious fears all go right out of the window, and it has a bit of a socially-inhibiting effect too.

-If you thought weed gets you the munchies, wait till you try this stuff. When you first start on this cycle, you get hungry as a SAVAGE. I usually eat just enough to be full, not overly gorged, but this stuff had me tearing up huge meals and not even feeling incapacitated by everything I just ate. I'd attribute this to the fact that with all the additional peptides and stuff, your body needs more nutrition. Sort of like adding B-vitamins to stuff like Pyritinol or even good old 5-HTP.

-Cerebrolysine helps alleviate most, if not all symptoms of post-intoxication syndrome for illicit drugs. I once gave my friend a shot after his most recent cocaine binge and he turned from a pale shadow who was about to pass out back to his normal self - energetic, enthusiastic, and motivated. Plus his foul mood and edginess were completely gone. It also seems to ease the alcohol-related hangover better than some other substances (although many nootropics are much better for that IMO since they're GABA-active). My other friend also liked taking it as a "corrector agent" for other nootropics/supplements, claiming it helped alleviate certain unwanted effects of piracetam, while preventing one from overloading on one particular amino acid too much. I personally avoid ALL other substances when doing cerebrolysine. It simply overshadows them all for me.

-They definitely put some kind of a painkiller in there. Shooting cortexin (which is similar, but I like it alot less, as it "vegetates" and sedates me too much to where I'm more mentally capable, but simply don't care) without a novacaine solution is literally a huge pain in the rear, while shooting straight cerebrolysine into my tiny tricep with a huge needle made my whole arm go numb for a short time, like an anastetic would.

-I've measured my blood pressure several times before and after the injections, and there is a slight blood pressure elevation. If you inject too fast, the heart rate jumps and you may sweat profusely. However it gives you a nice sort of a "rush" to where you feel very relaxed, but not incapacitated or drugged by any stretch of imagination. The headaches are there, but are very slight, and usually start about 2-3 hours after the injection.

-The long-term effects aren't so pleasant. There is an increasing feeling of "mounting personal hell" as I like to call it. Basically, all the negative traits of one's character seem to be unnaturally emphasized and underlined in your mind, while the positives seem little and insignificant. It doesn't really manifest itself in a severe form to others, but you may feel "grumpy" and "dissatisfied" even when you seem to be razor-sharp mentally. A good comparision would be some rich spoiled kid who has everything throwing tantrums and breaking stuff, just because he is rich and spoiled. Several of my friends reported very similar mental side effects. This is what initially led me to stop taking it by "tapering down" (I don't think it's a good method by the way, but since I was doin it daily for a while I decided for a slower descent). A .5 ml less every day for several days, then a week at 1ml and then 0.5 and then you're shooting colored water for placebo effects

- Some people report a HUGE boost in their sexual activity. I noticed only a slight boost

- When you're off the cerebrolysine, you feel like it's a bad day for no reason (see above having a top of your game day for no reason lol). I didn't notice any significant negative long-term effects on my cognitive processes. On the contrary I seem to be able to concentrate better at any time, without taking any substances, or even after smoking a lot of weed. I'm now able to "zone in" on something more completely and do better at focusing.

-This stuff has very strong and powerful overall effects, it is the most effective out of injectable nootropics/smart drugs that I've tried. Cortexin doesn't even come close, and various Cerebrolysine derivatives (we ahve a Cerebrolysate here) are nothin more than cheap imitations.

I've decided for another mini-cycle just now, about 3 years after that last lengthy episode. I'm sticking to what the doctors here recommend: 5ml every OTHER day. Seems to be the correct dosage and schedule.

I hope it doesn't sound too much like promo for the Austrian pharmaceuticals company which makes this stuff. It's really not somethin you want to mess around with if you don't know what you're doing.

He didn't notice any longterm problems which might hint that it's probably not a big deal taking it for more than a month at a time so it probably doesn't need to be cycled but its probably not economical, and this is the only post I've found that talks about longterm use (more than 1 month at a time). I don't know what else to add, except cerebrolysin in my body.

Edited by Gamerzneed, 15 January 2012 - 07:10 PM.