22 replies to this topic

[Delafuente]

Relatively new endodontic therapy that spares the root: http://lstr.jp/e/_us...lp-J LSTR-L.pdf

The therapy is known as 3mix-MP and involves the use of a combination of 3 antiobiotics with propylene glycol to disinfect the cavity.
Four hits come up on Pubmed for search term "3mix".

Any experiences with this therapy?

[xEva]

A friend of mine recently traveled from the US to Eastern Europe for a "dental vacation". He managed to convince a local dentist to do this procedure. That dentist never heard of it and did not read English, so my friend had to translate some of the papers available on the net and he had to prepare the 3mix-MP himself and bring it to his dentist. It was about a month ago and so far he is happy with the procedure. He had 3 teeth done this way and one tooth he did the traditional root canal. He had some trouble with that one tooth, initially, it's all fine now, for now.

In the US, I showed this info to a few dentists and they reacted very, very negatively. One honestly said that this is not in their financial interests. It's very hard to convince them to do it -- they act as if they would betray their professional guild if they would agree.

But, children may have a chance at this procedure in the US. The dentists seem more open to this.

[Delafuente]

A friend of mine recently traveled from the US to Eastern Europe for a "dental vacation". He managed to convince a local dentist to do this procedure. That dentist never heard of it and did not read English, so my friend had to translate some of the papers available on the net and he had to prepare the 3mix-MP himself and bring it to his dentist. It was about a month ago and so far he is happy with the procedure. He had 3 teeth done this way and one tooth he did the traditional root canal. He had some trouble with that one tooth, initially, it's all fine now, for now.

In the US, I showed this info to a few dentists and they reacted very, very negatively. One honestly said that this is not in their financial interests. It's very hard to convince them to do it -- they act as if they would betray their professional guild if they would agree.

But, children may have a chance at this procedure in the US. The dentists seem more open to this.

How did you inform the dentists of the procedure: did you attend as a patient and then present the research?

I wonder if there is some sort of directory listing open minded dentists or dentists that are motivated by the patient's wellbeing rather than financial incentive.

[xEva]

How did you inform the dentists of the procedure: did you attend as a patient and then present the research?

You can mail the info out asking if they would be willing to do it. Or go to dental schools, maybe there they would be more willing to try out something new like this.

I wonder if there is some sort of directory listing open minded dentists or dentists that are motivated by the patient's wellbeing rather than financial incentive.

In the US?

[Delafuente]

How did you inform the dentists of the procedure: did you attend as a patient and then present the research?

You can mail the info out asking if they would be willing to do it. Or go to dental schools, maybe there they would be more willing to try out something new like this.

I wonder if there is some sort of directory listing open minded dentists or dentists that are motivated by the patient's wellbeing rather than financial incentive.

In the US?

Yup, in the US (just wishful thinking).

On the other hand, this clinic in Japan does implement 3mix-MP:
http://www.amanodent...glish/3mix.html

[Danail Bulgaria]

I red, that the dentist has been from Bulgaria. In Bulgaria the law allows if the patient signs up an informed agreement for the procedure, such procedure can be done to him/her on his/her responsibility. The price of the "new product" in the most of these cases simply is added to the price of the standart procedure, so in Bulgaria it is much more easily to convince a dentist to do different therapies, as long the patient receive the law responsibility and pays enough.

[xEva]

UPDATE 3+ years later

Just ran into the friend who had 3 of this teeth done this way, 3+ years ago. Those teeth are still fine and he is very happy he had it done this way. Not only it cost him like regular fillings (a bit more for the hustle), but also he still has his own, live teeth (one of them capped).

Plus another person had the front incisor done the same way. The pulp damage there was minimal, still several US dentists consulted at the time all insisted on "root canal". In spite of this, the person managed to convince one young dentist to do it this way and --almost 4 years later-- the tooth is fine.

My verdict with this procedure --which, by the way, was initially invented for children's primary teeth-- is superior to the traditional barbaric, expensive method. Teeth with damaged pulp do get better. Once the infection is knocked down and surfaces repaired, the pulp heals.

Edited by xEva, 17 May 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Kalliste]

The only thing that changes treatment routines are funerals. Once people are schooled in this way or that they refuse to change. Endodontology is very senstivie to that. I know there have been several very infected (no pun intended) disagreement within the community over the optimal treatment. Personally I would consider extracting any tooth that was damaged enough for it to need a RC and then getting an implant or leaving an empty space.

[xEva]

The only thing that changes treatment routines are funerals. Once people are schooled in this way or that they refuse to change. Endodontology is very senstivie to that. I know there have been several very infected (no pun intended) disagreement within the community over the optimal treatment. Personally I would consider extracting any tooth that was damaged enough for it to need a RC and then getting an implant or leaving an empty space.

Well, they don't have financial incentive to change their routines, so, to demand a better option is left up to their clients.

And I think history is here partly to blame. Dentistry was long established before the advent of antibiotics. It became ingrained into dentists minds that drilling and removing tissue was the only way to go.

It's shocking to hear a person associated with the profession saying: "Personally I would consider extracting any tooth that was damaged enough for it to need a RC and then getting an implant or leaving an empty space." -- what?! you sound like the Amish, who often pull all the teeth out as a preventive, at about age 16-18 or so and get a prosthetic instead -- that's what the expense and hustle of dealing with the US dentists taught them to do. Your comment only shows how messed up dentistry is. you guys don't even believe in the possibility of pulp healing -- despite the evidence. Shocking!

[Kalliste]

Hehe I am not representative in any way. I dont like tge idea of RC though, it seems like the kind of thing that will be revealed to have some kind of weird side effect.

[xEva]

I thought you were at least dental hygienist of something -? ..you posted extensively and with such authority on all threads dealing with teeth or gums..

But I hear you about the RC. It sounds so barbaric to have a dead thing in the mouth. A zirconium implant sounds more appealing. But why have either if infected pulp can heal after treatment with antibiotics?

Edited by xEva, 17 May 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[Argos]

In my opinion, based on first hand experience (total of 5 root canals), this procedure is one of the biggest cons of the 21st century. When living organs die / parts of the body undergo necrosis, those dead parts are removed. A dead tooth by virtue of root canal procedure is KEPT jammed in the gums, filled with metal pins / cement and capped. This is problematic because a) the tooth is a dead body part. There is no blood flowing, no white blood cells to fight off infections. b) the "crown / cap" allows anerobic bacteria growth to go unchallenged by antibacterial mouth wash since it is protected under the "cap/crown" c) the "crown / cap" will need to be replaced or re-cemented every 5-10 years due to the cement bond breaking down d) the entire root canal "stem / dead tooth" and "crown / cap" has a limited lifespan and can fail. E) it can fail CATASTROPHICLY, as one root canal did in my case. I was chewing and my jaw moved at an odd angle, some of the near-by teeth bumped into the root canal. It set off a mass infection, the anerobic bacteria in the rootcanal (present in all rootcanals) entered my bloodstream through a puncture under the surface of my gums. My face swelled and they almost had to cut under my chin to drain and pack the infection. The color of the infected puss was dark red - almost black. Disgusting. And most critically, life threatening. The root canal makes a lot of money for dentists. You are without question going to be a returning customer to see a dentist at some point after getting a rootcanal. It is guaranteed future profit for the dental industry since all root canals have a limited life. They will need to be repaired, replaced, cut out, disinfected, etc at some point. Take that one procedure away from the profits of dentists... and they will have less money to blow on vacations. And to relate this to longevity - the bad bacteria that builds up in mouth has been studied (need source) and seem to have a negative impact on heart health.

[niner]

c) the "crown / cap" will need to be replaced or re-cemented every 5-10 years due to the cement bond breaking down

 

I've never had a root canal, but I have a crown that's been in place without any trouble for four decades, and another for two.  Is the problem that they use a weaker cement under the assumption that they may need to go back in?

 

I'm pretty interested in this root canal thing, because I have a tooth that cracked a few years ago, and currently has a crown, but it has a very annoying cold sensitivity that has never gone away.  I have to microwave freaking everything.  My dentist doesn't really like root canals, but he seems to think it's the next option.  I guess an implant is a possibility, but don't they have their own problems? 

[Kalliste]

Many people have RC's that last the entire life without issues. Many do not even remember them after a few years. The people who have issues with them will make a lot of noise so it's a problem of observation selection effect. RC's would be replaced by stem cell therapy at some point but until then they are going to be used since the reward is often bigger.

 

Anyway I was assaulted as a teenager and beaten with a hammer, two of my front incisors were gone for good. I had to use fake-teeth for two years until my skeleton was finished, then I got two titanium implants were my middle incisors used to be. They were expensive (~5k, half of which insurance agreed to fess up) but imo worth it and without any trouble. It's crucial to have correct tools to clean them with, even interdental brushes won't do for some. I recently discovered two 6mm periodontal pockets at my implants which were located in an angle that could only be reached using cotton-fluffed up dental floss that is pretty rare. Now I might need periodontal surgery to block the infection because it might have gone too far. The screws will literally act as a spiral stairway into the skeleton for bacteria. For several years mucositis can remain but after 5-6 years of constant infection there will be a "singularity" were the implants loose bone support within months unless action has been taken.

[xEva]

Cosmo, sorry about your teenage troubles and thanks for sharing your experience with implants.

I have a question: I read that zirconium integrates into the bone far better than titanium (also looks better, 'cause it's white). The only problem I saw with zirconium is that it is 'radioactive', but the degree of it depends on the source of the zirconium, which a dentist buying them is supposed to tell. Since I tend to mistrust dentists, don't see how to check it other than with a geiger counter. What do you think?

Edited by xEva, 09 June 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Kalliste]

The experts in that field seem to have a hard time agreeing with each other about a lot of things regarding bone integration, there are all kinds of different surface coatings (various bone grafts from your own body or from other sources, sprayed on nanomaterials, biomaterials, special manufacturing techniques to increase cm2 and so on).

I'm not qualified to say, but the idea of using a geiger counter might be good. I think most dentists and surgeons worry more about "acute" issues such as the ability to bear a heavy load, the ease/cheapness of the procedure (the "implant, surgery and implant crown at once debacle here in Sweden in the early 2000's)

 

Personally I suspect that plain titanium impants work fine and the additional stuff is just for implant surgeons to have something to quarrel about or of use when performing implants on people with low bone density, pre-existing conditions like periodontitis or maxillofacial trauma.

 

Two or three years after my titanium implants I started getting RSI in my hands and neck. It might be totally unrelated but none of my friends, some of which led a far more damaging life-style ever caught on too it. I worry that there are low level risks that are unexplored because they would be too difficult to investigate. If I reach LEV I'll definetly have them removed and replaced with stem cell teeth

[Kalliste]

By the way I have run into a few dentists who had RCs done on themselves and they typically had them done at an endodontologists clinic. If it was me I would ask for the earliest possible time at a monday morning (no delay due to previous treatment, good mood after a relaxing weekend).

[xEva]

Thanks but what's RSI? Google only gave me "repetitive strain injury" and "Relative Strength Index", but in your context it sounds like a skin problem -?

The problem I sorta associated with titanium, from my reading on it, is that it may leak ions leading to local or maybe even systemic inflammation. Plus it's not pure titanium, but a mostly titanium alloy they use, no? It's known that many kinds bacteria just love metal ions. Somewhat related, a few years ago, some problems with titanium joints were in the news (even a recall?)

Also, I did not particularly like how gums around titanium implants looked on the pictures. At the margins the gums appeared dark and sorta sickly looking. ..though it could be only because the dark material shines through the layer of soft tissue around it -?

[ceridwen]

How long before stem cell teeth are ready. They were promising those when my children were at junior school. They said it would only take 18 years for them to be perfected. That was a long time ago. Where are they?

[Kalliste]

Thanks but what's RSI? Google only gave me "repetitive strain injury" and "Relative Strength Index", but in your context it sounds like a skin problem -?

The problem I sorta associated with titanium, from my reading on it, is that it may leak ions leading to local or maybe even systemic inflammation. Plus it's not pure titanium, but a mostly titanium alloy they use, no? It's known that many kinds bacteria just love metal ions. Somewhat related, a few years ago, some problems with titanium joints were in the news (even a recall?)

Also, I did not particularly like how gums around titanium implants looked on the pictures. At the margins the gums appeared dark and sorta sickly looking. ..though it could be only because the dark material shines through the layer of soft tissue around it -?

 

The gums change shape depending on the number of implants. One will hardly be noticeable, two implants like I have will get me some rare comments "Do you use snus or something". Repetetive strain injury is my concern. It's probably just genetic or some bad luck but like a vaxxer I have a hard time dismissing the connection. About 18 months after them I got it, none of my friends who abused video games even twice as much as me ever had the problem. But who knows. It would be nice with some injectable nanodiagnostics to give us the full readout of what our tissues are coming up with. I have met one person who suffered a nasty reaction to titanium after he had several plates grafted to his face after an accident. He was swollen like a chipmunk, but his case is hardly comparable to mine. And I probably just had some bad genes or something, didn't take the symtoms seriously in due time and here I am.

[xEva]

6-years UPDATE on 3Mix-MP alternative to root canal therapy: 

 

So, a friend of mine had 3 of his 4 teeth done this way in Dec 2011 (see my posts above and here). He had to travel to Lithuania from the US for this. Recently, some of the crowns had to be replaced. The Lithuanian dentist had warned him that they should last ~5 years. The 3 teeth that are still alive thanks to this therapy did not do any worse than the one done traditionally, via depulpation. 

 

Now, through a friend of a friend, he found a dentist in Brooklyn, NY, who agreed to redo these teeth in the same way. This dentist's objection was, "I'll do it, but this is not permanent" (and what is permanent, which is alive?)   As a permanent option, he offered the traditional root canal for ~$1K (vs ~$200 for this method).  

 

Cost aside, even if he has to do it every 5 years this is still a better option, because the tooth is still alive. In the meantime, new therapies are emerging for restoration of dentin: http://www.longecity...reparing-teeth/

 

I can't imagine anyone in the right mind agreeing to the traditional archaic depulpation method. As Adamzksi said above, this is akin to amputating a limb to treat infection.

 

 

PS

Sorry for the double post. I thought it was important to post this update but could not remember the thread, so it ended up in 2 threads on root canal.

[nickdino]

Does or doesn't a rootcanal treatment increase your risk for developing cancer?

http://www.colgate.c...ancer-myth-0417

[true_dmb]

6-years UPDATE on 3Mix-MP alternative to root canal therapy: 

 

So, a friend of mine had 3 of his 4 teeth done this way in Dec 2011 (see my posts above and here). He had to travel to Lithuania from the US for this. Recently, some of the crowns had to be replaced. The Lithuanian dentist had warned him that they should last ~5 years. The 3 teeth that are still alive thanks to this therapy did not do any worse than the one done traditionally, via depulpation. 

 

Now, through a friend of a friend, he found a dentist in Brooklyn, NY, who agreed to redo these teeth in the same way. This dentist's objection was, "I'll do it, but this is not permanent" (and what is permanent, which is alive?)   As a permanent option, he offered the traditional root canal for ~$1K (vs ~$200 for this method).  

 

Cost aside, even if he has to do it every 5 years this is still a better option, because the tooth is still alive. In the meantime, new therapies are emerging for restoration of dentin: http://www.longecity...reparing-teeth/

 

I can't imagine anyone in the right mind agreeing to the traditional archaic depulpation method. As Adamzksi said above, this is akin to amputating a limb to treat infection.

 

 

PS

Sorry for the double post. I thought it was important to post this update but could not remember the thread, so it ended up in 2 threads on root canal.

 

Thank you for making me aware of the LSTR-3mix. I am based in UK and am trying (for now in vain) to find a dentist who does this stuff. Important question though: does it also work for heavily filled tooth ? most of my dentin has been replaced with a large filling.

 

Edit: also important: if the pulp is already dead, presumably this method has no use compared to RCT ?

Edited by true_dmb, 15 October 2017 - 06:06 PM.