211 replies to this topic

[killshot]

Very relaxed, lower does seemed more stimulating?

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[SuperjackDid_]

Any dose give me star floating around ,should i discontinue this amazing substance ?

[Michael Campbell]

I think anything that makes you see stars is probably worth stopping, and seeing an eye doctor for.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Any update on the mannitol?

Yeah any?

I read somewhere that adding calcium supplements help dramatically, can't remember where I read it though.

[SuperjackDid_]

I think anything that makes you see stars is probably worth stopping, and seeing an eye doctor for.

I think about over-stimulation and relate to brain not eye ,i will stop this .

Edited by Nootropix, 26 November 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[optic]

I wonder if you have to cycle racetams. Do you take the same amount of racetams each day? Do you take days off per week? Do you stop every 3 months completely? I would love to hear opinions from long term users.

[xsiv1]

I try and taper off each one (especially Noopept) every 3 months and keep away for 1-3 myself. I'll replace the aforementioned racetams with something else but typically use them in a cyclical fashion. Although the studies have shown sub-5 gram doses to be most effective, I get results with near 2g daily of either ani or piracetam. With Noopept, I keep it to just 10mgs/day for a 4 day on/3 day off schedule only because it'll adversely affect my sleep patterns with longer use.

[Brundle99]

Great thread,

First time user of Piracetam an Choline.


This is what I have done so far:

(Day 1) 1g Piracetam + 500mg Choline Bitartrate. (Feel like I've had a coffee as energy seems to have gone up, and music feels more intense)

(Day 2) 2g Piracetam + 500mg Choline, and another 2g 5 hours later, no Choline. (after increasing dose the energy is there and I feel happier, but not much else) (woke up the next morning feeling tired and groggy).

(Day 3) 3g Piracetam, no Choline. (Wondered if the Choline made me sluggish...) (increase in dose hasn't altered anything, but stlll the energy and happiness is there) (still no headache so far).


After reading this forum with the studies, I decided to take 4.8g Piracetam to see if my response would be better on day 4.

From day 1 I have felt a bit more energetic like I have had a coffee and have the alertness but also feel chilled out at the same time.

(Day 4) 4.8g Piracetam, no Choline. 4 hours later another 4.8g Piracetam. (feeling good, more aware of my surroundings and seem more focused, more talkative)


I do have Hypothyroidism, I take Levothyroxine for this, and have recently found out the meds could interact in some way.

I have a lot of symptoms that come with Hypo-thyroid, bad short term memory, thinning hair, dry skin, cold intolerance, and depression.

I'm not sure what to do, as I want to carry on testing Piracetam out with different dosages, to see if it can change my life for the better.

I'm not a very confident person generally, and quite shy too, and I want to be more talkative,happier and focused.

I understand that being on Piracetam may take some time to see more benefits, and that results may vary on an individual basis, but i'm trying to find the sweet spot, hopefully when the Piracetam is in my system properly, I can lower the dose right down and get the same effects as a larger dose.

[xsiv1]

Great thread,

First time user of Piracetam an Choline.


This is what I have done so far:

(Day 1) 1g Piracetam + 500mg Choline Bitartrate. (Feel like I've had a coffee as energy seems to have gone up, and music feels more intense)

(Day 2) 2g Piracetam + 500mg Choline, and another 2g 5 hours later, no Choline. (after increasing dose the energy is there and I feel happier, but not much else) (woke up the next morning feeling tired and groggy).

(Day 3) 3g Piracetam, no Choline. (Wondered if the Choline made me sluggish...) (increase in dose hasn't altered anything, but stlll the energy and happiness is there) (still no headache so far).


After reading this forum with the studies, I decided to take 4.8g Piracetam to see if my response would be better on day 4.

From day 1 I have felt a bit more energetic like I have had a coffee and have the alertness but also feel chilled out at the same time.

(Day 4) 4.8g Piracetam, no Choline. 4 hours later another 4.8g Piracetam. (feeling good, more aware of my surroundings and seem more focused, more talkative)


I do have Hypothyroidism, I take Levothyroxine for this, and have recently found out the meds could interact in some way.

I have a lot of symptoms that come with Hypo-thyroid, bad short term memory, thinning hair, dry skin, cold intolerance, and depression.

I'm not sure what to do, as I want to carry on testing Piracetam out with different dosages, to see if it can change my life for the better.

I'm not a very confident person generally, and quite shy too, and I want to be more talkative,happier and focused.

I understand that being on Piracetam may take some time to see more benefits, and that results may vary on an individual basis, but i'm trying to find the sweet spot, hopefully when the Piracetam is in my system properly, I can lower the dose right down and get the same effects as a larger dose.

I think you're definitely on the right course. As an aside and somewhat related to the potential side effects of your thyroid medication...I'd take a look at what foods are high in choline (like eggs) and see if they're ones that you eat regularly. Too much choline can cause depression/depressive symptoms such as insomnia. Just something to watch but also keeping in mind the racetams will deplete acetylcholine in the brain from what I understand. It's going to be a trial and error kind of process for a bit.

[Brundle99]

Great thread,

First time user of Piracetam an Choline.


This is what I have done so far:

(Day 1) 1g Piracetam + 500mg Choline Bitartrate. (Feel like I've had a coffee as energy seems to have gone up, and music feels more intense)

(Day 2) 2g Piracetam + 500mg Choline, and another 2g 5 hours later, no Choline. (after increasing dose the energy is there and I feel happier, but not much else) (woke up the next morning feeling tired and groggy).

(Day 3) 3g Piracetam, no Choline. (Wondered if the Choline made me sluggish...) (increase in dose hasn't altered anything, but stlll the energy and happiness is there) (still no headache so far).


After reading this forum with the studies, I decided to take 4.8g Piracetam to see if my response would be better on day 4.

From day 1 I have felt a bit more energetic like I have had a coffee and have the alertness but also feel chilled out at the same time.

(Day 4) 4.8g Piracetam, no Choline. 4 hours later another 4.8g Piracetam. (feeling good, more aware of my surroundings and seem more focused, more talkative)


I do have Hypothyroidism, I take Levothyroxine for this, and have recently found out the meds could interact in some way.

I have a lot of symptoms that come with Hypo-thyroid, bad short term memory, thinning hair, dry skin, cold intolerance, and depression.

I'm not sure what to do, as I want to carry on testing Piracetam out with different dosages, to see if it can change my life for the better.

I'm not a very confident person generally, and quite shy too, and I want to be more talkative,happier and focused.

I understand that being on Piracetam may take some time to see more benefits, and that results may vary on an individual basis, but i'm trying to find the sweet spot, hopefully when the Piracetam is in my system properly, I can lower the dose right down and get the same effects as a larger dose.

I think you're definitely on the right course. As an aside and somewhat related to the potential side effects of your thyroid medication...I'd take a look at what foods are high in choline (like eggs) and see if they're ones that you eat regularly. Too much choline can cause depression/depressive symptoms such as insomnia. Just something to watch but also keeping in mind the racetams will deplete acetylcholine in the brain from what I understand. It's going to be a trial and error kind of process for a bit.

Thanks for your comments.

It's now (day 5) I took thyroid meds at 09:30,

then decided to add a fish oil supplement 1000mg at 11:30
and drank 500ml of milk to get the calcium. ( I heard these 2 things help Piracetam work properly).

Then I took 4.8g Piracetam at 12:43.

I have since learned that fish oil capsule and milk in your stomach at the same time really isn't a good idea (causes stomach to feel a bit sickly).

Today with the added milk and fish oil, I haven't noticed even a slight change in effect (maybe I need to try it for a good few weeks to see if I notice a change).

Staying at 4.8g Piracetam for now, twice a day with 4-5 hours in between for now.

Still dont seem to need any Choline, as no headaches or discomfort in any way. I'm not sure if a small bit of Choline would help potentiate Piracetam, but last time i had 500g i felt a bit tired.

I talked to a Doctor at the hospital today about a different issue, but mentioned I have started taking Piracetam, and he said it will take at least 4 weeks for your system to get used to it.

I have also been reading another forum which is really good and detailed, take a look - http://www.longecity...enefits-from-it

[Brundle99]

I've been taking Piracetam+Choline for just over a week and I need to report that most evenings and mornings, when I haven't taken these yet, I feel quite dehydrated and a little bit groggy, but my I never feel as tired anymore since taking these two which is good.

Anyway my question is, is Chline Bitartrate made up of salt or sodium that could possibly be dehydrating me?

I have started drinking more and urinating more also.

[xsiv1]

I've been taking Piracetam+Choline for just over a week and I need to report that most evenings and mornings, when I haven't taken these yet, I feel quite dehydrated and a little bit groggy, but my I never feel as tired anymore since taking these two which is good.

Anyway my question is, is Chline Bitartrate made up of salt or sodium that could possibly be dehydrating me?

I have started drinking more and urinating more also.

From the Wiki page:


Chemistry

Choline is a quaternary ammonium salt with the chemical formula (CH₃)₃N⁺CH₂CH₂OHX⁻, where X⁻ is a counterion such as chloride (see choline chloride), hydroxide or tartrate. Choline chloride can form a low-melting deep eutectic solvent mixture with urea with unusual properties.^[9] The salicylate salt is used topically for pain relief of aphthous ulcers.^[10][11]
[edit]Choline hydroxide

Choline hydroxide is one of the class of phase transfer catalysts that are used to carry the hydroxide ion into organic systems, and, therefore, is considered a strong base. It is the least-costly phase transfer catalyst, and is used as a cheap method of stripping photoresists in circuit boards. Choline hydroxide is not completely stable, and it slowly breaks down into trimethylamine.^[12]

[Brundle99]

Thanks for your reply.

I have Choline Bitartrate that I take mixed in water, and its kind of worrying me now after reading about caustic burns and things:

Quaternary ammonium compounds can display a range of health effects, amongst which are mild skin and respiratory irritation [11] up to severe caustic burns on skin and gastro-intestinal lining (depending on concentration), gastro-intestinal symptoms (e.g., nausea and vomiting), coma, convulsions, hypotension and death.[12]

They are thought to be the chemical group responsible for anaphylactic reactions that occur with use of neuromuscular blocking drugs during general anaesthesia in surgery.[13]Quaternium-15 is the single most often found cause of allergic contact dermatitis of the hands (16.5% in 959 cases)[14]

[Raza]

No, that second paragraph is about just choline hydroxide. Hydroxide's are all very caustic, and you wouldn't want to take any kind of hydroxide in water, but yours is choline bitartrate.

Anyway, no there's no sodium in choline, nor in tartric acid (the other part of your choline)

Edited by Raza, 22 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Brundle99]

Great post Raza

Thank you.

I have one more question I hope can be answered :0)

Could I take B-Complex suppliment instead of Bitartrate?, and would it cover the acetylcholine requirements that Piracetam needs?

[Raza]

Most B-complexes have only a little bit of choline... people taking choline for racetams tend to take 500-1000mgs of basic forms like choline bitartrate or choline citrate, while b-complexes tend to have more like... 80mg. Check yours and see for yourself.

Also, most B-complexes have far too much of many B vitamins. Several hundred or even thousand percent of those is mostly not a good thing.

[Brundle99]

Most B-complexes have only a little bit of choline... people taking choline for racetams tend to take 500-1000mgs of basic forms like choline bitartrate or choline citrate, while b-complexes tend to have more like... 80mg. Check yours and see for yourself.

Also, most B-complexes have far too much of many B vitamins. Several hundred or even thousand percent of those is mostly not a good thing.

Great info thanks!

I've lowered my dose of Piracetam from 4.8g to 1g because I'm about to run out of Piracetam and the effects were mild, so trying 1g Piracetam today to start at the lower end upwards to find my optimal dose.

Choline-wise I have been on 1g of choline twice a day spaced out about 5 hours.

Today after starting on the lower dosage of Piracetam 1g, about an hour and a half later I was walking around the supermarket and felt nauseous and vision slightly blurred, quite uncomfortable.

I'm baffled as to whether the Piracetam or the Choline has affected me in this way, the only thing I can think of is maybe I've been building up too much Choline and as Pieacetams effects on me so far are mild then maybe the acetylcholine isn't being depleted as quick as I would have expected.

With this sickly feeling, I also became short tempered and easily irritated.

I may lay off the Choline for a few days and reduce the dosage.

But if those side effects also apply to Piracetam then I don't know why a lower dose would make me feel as though I'd over done it.

I welcome your feedback because I'm creating a table going upwards in dose until I find a good place with Piracetam, and I'd hate to just completely have to forget taking it in future.

Effects I've had so far is slightly better focus and attention with audio sounding slightly better, actually made me more sensitive to bass and lower tones all around me and gave me a greater sense of what's going on around me.

I'm taking Piracetam because I have a thyroid condition that I take meds for and I have a lot of side-effects of this which have been helped by Piracetam. The side effects are terrible short term memory, depression and lack of energy, and my confidence is close to zero.

I have taken 2 College courses lasting 2 years and I ca hardly remember any of it, so it was a waste of time and money.

I want to start an I.T course in Jan next year and want Piracetam to help me with my knowledge absorbing and recall. I have only been on Piracetam just over a week and already I think I can retain slightly more knowledge and my Vocab has definitely got better.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to any advice you can offer :0).

[Brundle99]

anyone available to answer my last question?

thanks

[Brundle99]

Hi Everyone I wonder if you can help me?!

I have been taking Piracetam for just over three weeks, and I also have Choline Bitartrate, Fish oil capsules, Calcium tablets.

I take 2g Piracetam, 1g Choline, 2g fish oil, all twice a day, but haven't started taking any calcium yet.


My question is: Am I supposed to pre-load Choline before I take piracetam?, or take at the same time?.

And do I take the Fish oil, Calcium tablets, with Piracetam or before it/after it?.

I'm just not sure what order I should be taking them in to maximise benefits.

I'm not sure whether I should take Calcium tablets an hour or two before Piracetam to give them time to dissolve in stomach.


Hope you can help.

Thanks.

[Morello Giuseppe]

So I really don't understand, since I'm quite new to the nootropics. Today I just got piracetam 800mg, and I took 2 during the day. I can't feel nothing, and I just read more of Piracetam, then came across this thread talking about the lowest dosage for effect is 4.8 gram, which means I have to take 6 tablets of my 800mg in order to feel something, am I right or completely gone? Oh, I just bought choline citrate as well, plus taking fish oils 2 times per day + multivitamins.

[xsiv1]

So I really don't understand, since I'm quite new to the nootropics. Today I just got piracetam 800mg, and I took 2 during the day. I can't feel nothing, and I just read more of Piracetam, then came across this thread talking about the lowest dosage for effect is 4.8 gram, which means I have to take 6 tablets of my 800mg in order to feel something, am I right or completely gone? Oh, I just bought choline citrate as well, plus taking fish oils 2 times per day + multivitamins.

It's not uncommon to not 'feel' anything..especially at that dose and after a few uses. For me, I noticed a subtle elevation of alertness at that dose combined with some choline. At 4.8 grams, you definitely feel more alert and focused but I'm unsure if it's even worth it unless you're determined to stick with it for 6mths. I was at 800 x 2/day and for 3 months. I literally couldn't feel any significant difference until it came to cognitive tests I took found online. eg. Lumosity, back n forth training, etc. I did notice verbal fluency was enhanced and memory recall as well after a length of time. In the end, it may not be for you. It's not to be compared to something like, Adderall or other psychostimulants in terms of focus and clarity. It's considered neuroprotective and the results are felt over time. Most of the research showing beneficial effects are found in those who suffer from some cognitive impairment. Truth be told, I find there are better noots out there. In fact, if you have any kind of anxiety, aniracetam seems to touch that and act as a nootropic. Going as high as nearly 5 grams per dose at twice a day for extended periods is not my cup of tea. I'm really liking ALCAR a lot in my experience and it's more of a clean focused mental energy.

[Sunwind]

@ScienceGuy: I got my 1kg Piracetam today from Sun Nootropics, i'm going to be taking 5g / 3 times daily (9am, 2pm, 7pm) because of this thread. Will update how it goes. Should I try without choline to see if I get headaches or not first, or is the choline itself beneficial? I read that too much can cause depression? (I have Citocoline)

Also, was it you that said these 4.8+ doses of Pira gave mood lift + anxiolysys effects? That's what I'm really hoping for here.

This is what i'm taking right now, mostly for anxiety relief (primary) / mood boost (secondary)
(If anyone has any suggestions that would be cool.)

Edited by Sunwind, 30 May 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[tea76]

Has anyone had problems with Muscle twitches after trying Piracetam at these doses?

I did 4.8g once or twice per day, for about three weeks, and now five months after I quit I have permanent problems with fasciculations.

I've started a thread on this if someone wishes to discuss: http://www.longecity...-piracetam-use/

Edited by ecglsd, 01 June 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Sunwind]

I took almost 20g a day for about 2 weeks and have since lowered it to about 10g a day, haven't had those problems.

would still like to know if the current general consensus is a minimum of 4.8g per dose, up to multiple times per day. I heard on IRC that this logic was flawed and the 4.8g is based on a single daily dose and not for every dose.

[machete234]

I just took 800mg pirabene, will ingest more if there arent any issues.

I want to know once and for all if there is something to this high dose thing and if I can get to a dosage range where I get with easily other racetams because they are more potent.

[MikeBurns]

I personally found piracetam to be most effective taking 4x800mg 2-3 times a day, 4-5 hrs apart. I cut that in half when I switched to aniracetam but now I take about 50mg/day (sometimes twice a day) of noopept. [I understand that some of you will say that this is a lot but it's what works noticeably well for me.] I have found racetams in general improve not just my mental function but my emotional well-being. Even though I do not take it anymore, I do still think very highly of piracetam and feel that the "mega-doses" which are in-fact "normal doses" are within the range of what I have discovered as effective from my own personal experiences.

Edited by MikeBurns, 07 July 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[xsiv1]

I personally found piracetam to be most effective taking 4x800mg 2-3 times a day, 4-5 hrs apart. I cut that in half when I switched to aniracetam but now I take about 50mg/day (sometimes twice a day) of noopept. [I understand that some of you will say that this is a lot but it's what works noticeably well for me.] I have found racetams in general improve not just my mental function but my emotional well-being. Even though I do not take it anymore, I do still think very highly of piracetam and feel that the "mega-doses" which are in-fact "normal doses" are within the range of what I have discovered as effective from my own personal experiences.

How much supplemental choline do you find you're using with that stack or do you try and use, well, none?

[MikeBurns]

The American Institute of Medicine recommended AI to UL range for choline for a male my age is 550mg-3500mg so I take 2x250mg whenever I take the noopept. So, basically I take 500mg of choline 2-3 times a day. I also take DMAE, vinpocetine, my methylphenidate prescription, and some phenylpiracetam to support the noopept and choline. The combination works incredibly well for me. [Edit: I just started adding the phenylpiracetam to the stack.]

Edited by MikeBurns, 07 July 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[machete234]

@MikeBurns, should you ever get depressed it couldbe the choline

I think its also not certain if any choline is needed with noopept and why take DMAE and choline because it serves the same purpose

[MikeBurns]

@MikeBurns, should you ever get depressed it couldbe the choline

I think its also not certain if any choline is needed with noopept and why take DMAE and choline because it serves the same purpose

@machete234, you bring up two great points and pose a fabulous question. I have certainly read about the link between excessively high choline levels and depression. This is why I have shot for the lower half of the "Adequate Intake" side of the spectrum, rather than attempting to hit the top end of the "Upper Limit" side of the spectrum.

Also, I understand the commonly held belief that DMAE increases acetylcholine. But, do you know how this happens? It is not because DMAE _becomes_ choline in the brain but because it inhibits the metabolism of choline in peripheral tissues, allowing it to enter the bloodstream and increases the availability of it to the brain. Since an estimated 90% of the population is choline deficient, I would argue that everybody could benefit from added choline. The combination of DMAE with choline is done to increase the amount available to the brain. Noopept is an ampakine (in the racetam family) and as with any ampakine (and specifically racetams), choline supplementation is always helpful and supportive.

Edited by MikeBurns, 07 July 2013 - 07:09 PM.