9 replies to this topic

[Focalpoint]

I've searched through this forum and elsewhere and, while I've seen certain posts reference ratios of 1:5 or 2:1 or even a "ratio of 0.2" (whatever that means), I still haven't seen anything that is really clear about how much choline to take with pramiracetam, or how much to take with aniracetam, as a ratio. I know there is no hard-fast rule and the best I can get are general guidelines, but when I am reading most of these posts, it's not even clearly written enough for me to figure out what ratio of WHAT to WHAT they're talking about -- so a ratio of 1:5 means either one part choline to 5 parts racetam, or vice-versa. I can't tell which.

So, wonder if a knowledgeable person can post:

* Ratio of choline to prami -- how many parts choline to one part pram
* Ratio of choline to ani
* Does stacking ani and prami change the cumulative ratio?

Thanks!

[Cephalon]

Hi Focalpoint

I guess nobody can give you such a ratio, since it depends on so many factors, like your dietary choline intake, your absorption rate, your brain metabolism etc.

Just take the Pramiracetam on it's own. On your next dose add a 100-250mg equivalent of free choline. See how that goes. Next time you can go a little higher. You will most likely notice if you do not get enough choline - a headache or light headness are typical symptoms. You do not want to get much more then the RDA of 550mg free choline.

What choline supplement are you going to use? Keep in mind not all are 1:1 equivalent to free choline. You'd need to take around 12g Lecithin just to reach the RDA of 550mg. Or 4200mg Phosphatidylcholine. It's wise not to use free choline forms, because they can put you at a risk for cardiovascular disease. Not sure about CDP Choline (I still use this form) but I guess this applies for CDP as well since it is rapidly broken down to free choline in the periphery.

You will never need (should) take 5 parts Choline per 1 part Pramiracetam/ Aniracetam.
I assume you speak of single Racetam doses in the 500mg-1000mg range, correct?

[Focalpoint]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply!

Well, I have to say that the first week has been pretty rough. The first few days I felt fine, had a lot of "focus" and just felt like doing more in the day than usual; a great desire to get things done. Not sure if that was just a placebo effect or not. I had read in several locations that the dose of pramiracetam to body weight should be (in general terms; I know everyone is different), 15mg per kilogram of body weight. For me that comes out to two doses of 600mg per day. As for choline I am using CDP, but thanks for the warning on possible cardiovascular disease risk.

I experimented with the choline. I first started taking 250mg per dose. But then the headaches came, so I upped it to 300mg. Now the headache continues even two days after completely quitting all supplements, and it's really annoying. Just an insistent dull pain in the forehead, some stiffness in the neck, and a "pressure" feeling. This can't be good for your head. It's worrying me. I am going to just wait for all of that to go away before even considering starting this up again -- and when and if I do, it will be at a much lower dosage. Haven't even started the aniracetam yet; not even sure if I will now after this first experience with prami.

Somehow I need to find a good balance; that's the goal if I am going to do this at all and that is why I asked the question. So far it's been anything but pleasant. Even through the headache, though, I could definitely recognize the potential for benefit, because it did help me think at work, I felt more organized and my analytical skills seemed to subtly increase and just become "easier." But if it means having these headaches (which I normally NEVER get), it ain't worth it.

FP

Edited by Focalpoint, 25 May 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Cephalon]

No, sure, that's no way worth it. Ok so either you up your choline intake, or you should switch racetams.
I never stayed so long on Pramicatam - always kept it for special occasions - so I did not run in this issues yet.
Piracetam and Aniracetam should be fine with 250-550mg free choline. Actually I'm not sure how much choline, CDP Choline gives.

[pamojja]

Actually I'm not sure how much choline, CDP Choline gives.

Read here at Longecity (don't remember which thread) that citicoline contains about 21% choline.

[Focalpoint]

So that means that the recommended dosage of CDP Choline, 250 mg, really only contains 52.5 mg of choline, huh? So I'd need to up my CDP Choline dose to around 1.5 g or so to get 300 mg of choline?

[Cephalon]

So that means that the recommended dosage of CDP Choline, 250 mg, really only contains 52.5 mg of choline, huh? So I'd need to up my CDP Choline dose to around 1.5 g or so to get 300 mg of choline?

Crazy isn't it? I knew it's not 100% choline, but didn't expect it to be that little. Yes you would need to take around 10 x 250mg CDP Choline caps to reach the RDA of choline. Prety expensive undertaking. ..

I wouldn't rely solely on the CDP for choline then. I also updated my choline intakes to the following:

AM: 250mg CDP Choline, 3 x 1200mg Lecithin
Midday: 250mg CDP Choline, 3 x 1200mg Lecithin

Which is around 430mg Choline - 2 x 50mg immediate release + 2 x 165mg SR

[Focalpoint]

Ran across this site, which purportedly sells aniracetam and choline in pre-measured capsule at a "recommended portion" ratio of approximately 3 parts aniracetam to 1 part choline.

http://www.boostyour...buy-aniracetam/

However --
* "Recommended portion" is recommended by whom?
* I don't know if the 120mg choline means 120mg of free choline, or just 120mg of some choline source that itself has some smaller percentage of choline in it, as described in previous posts here.

But based upon that, I have 750mg capsules of aniracetam. (Mistake -- going to go with the raw powder next time, if there is a next time.) So with a 750mg capsule, that would be around 250 mg of (I'm assuming) FREE choline that I'd have to take. Which would mean about 1200mg of CDP choline (21% x 1200mg = 252mg free choline), or about the same amount of lecithin (12000mg lecithin / 550mg free choline = 22%).

Does the math look right on that?

[Johnny_Mac]

I personally have used phosphatidylcholine with B5 to stimulate the production of acetylcholine, for the purposes of aniracetam testing. I now have found that eggs are a wonderful, natural source of choline. According to this site, 1 egg provides 26.5% of the DV of choline. That equates to 112.65 mg per egg, so 4-5 should be just right. Plus, ones body will absorb nutrients and the like way easier from food than from an extracted/synthesized supplement in a bottle.

[Focalpoint]

Does it need to be free choline, though? Is that the only type of choline that counts? Because this report that shows the choline content in common foods seems to indicate that while eggs are super-high in total choline, the amount of free choline is low. Foods like chicken liver, wheat bran and even basil leaves appear to have a lot more free choline than eggs.

Edited by Focalpoint, 31 May 2012 - 04:30 AM.