526 replies to this topic

[clairvoyant]

AgeVivo,
What are you feeding them? Fried corn flakes, full of glycation products and rancid fats. White bread-fast breakdown carbohydrates. Cheese full of cholesterol. Use nuts, sunflower seeds, whole corn, wheat, oat flakes as it is in nature. Leave that human food not to spoil the experiment.

[AgeVivo]

I've been doing it since start and I'm not giving much of such 'candies'. 99% of their food is standard food for rodents bought at the petshop. They are pet animals, its part of the conditions. So are the pets of the persons who will participate in mprize at home.

Also, if mprize at home reveals to be workable (we're doing what we can for it of course, but we'll see) then it will have a nice particularity: it will be lifespan tests in conditions that are closer to humans: instead of SPF (specific pathogen conditions) having rodent pellets, it's a pool of human homes with some variations of foods, care, temperature, rodent genetic background, etc. The ITP and Spindler's lab are already following that path when using a pool of heterogeneous mice for lifespan tests.

[AgeVivo]

Lifespan varies widely with strain: for instance the one mouse who died at roughly 2 years would be in the top 15% of survivors of YBR / Eij but only the top 90% SJL/L
http://research.jax....LifeStudy2.html

Just wondering the strain so we can track how long they live versus the average - also an interesting result.

Interesting...


C57BL6 mice (pink here) and wistar rats (Baati et al) have similar lifespans, that what I had in mind. I bought mice in a petshop and therefore they are not of a particular strain. In France it is actually not possible for a someone outside a lab to buy a lab strain. As specified in a previous post, when asking around I was told that those who really take care of their petshop mice at home can make them live 2 years, not more as far as the answers I've had.

First time I'm hearing about the LP/J and RIII/DmMobJ mice -- wonder where they come from / what makes them naturally live so long compared no other non-short-lived strains such as C57BL6. Don't have much time right now: if someone wants to have a look great. Otherwise I'll have a look in a few days.

What it means for what I'm doing is that if my 2 mice are healthy looking in 3 months (26 months) I'll think it's probably working; in 6 months (29 months) I'll be personnally very convinced; but based on not very solid basis (!?! I could change mind, I don't know). Looking at the graph, waiting for age 32 months would be very convincing. With Mprize at home, we'll have controls so it will be better.

Edited by AgeVivo, 04 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Pictures of the mice fed C60oo this morning:  bb_041112.JPG   91.62KB   36 downloads  bw_041112.JPG   123.17KB   32 downloads

Add here is a video where the black mouse with white belly did a nice stunt (The one with black belly then tried but came back after doing half of it; I keep such photos and videos in high quality format in case we want to traceback some later health outcomes)
http://agevivo.com/l...2mice041112.wmv

Edited by AgeVivo, 04 November 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[tweedlover]

Ok, would that make them 'fancy mice'?

http://en.wikipedia....cy_mouse#Health

If so, Wikipedia says they live roughly 18-30 months depending on how they are kept and genetic predisposition (also some tips on keeping them healthy, and tick free).

So, that would fit with you idea that 30+ months is convincing.

Exciting - into the home stretch!

[AgeVivo]

http://en.wikipedia....cy_mouse#Health

indeed. cool wikipedia article

[AgeVivo]

as usual, changed the cage, no food for about 10h, then fed c60oo on bread (4 drops per mice)
 bw_111112.jpg   46.26KB   15 downloads  bb_111112.jpg   45.05KB   16 downloads

[clairvoyant]

My first guess is that it died from a hemothorax due to a neoplastic lung injury.

Indeed, "neoplastic": tumor. A white mass of tissue grew out of one lung. I've done autopsies (necropsies) of quite many old mice in the past, and I don't think I could be wrong on that. Whether it is the cause of death I don't know, but it seems probable.

C60, at least the water-soluble variety, has been shown to have anti-cancer activity in mice--

AIM:

To estimate the impact of C(60) fullerene aqueous solution (C(60)FAS) on the rate of transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.

METHODS:

Lewis lung carcinoma was transplanted into С57Bl/6J male mice. Conventional methods for the evaluation of antitumor and antimetastatic effects have been used.

RESULTS:

The C(60)FAS at low single therapeutic dose of 5 mg/kg inhibited the growth of transplanted malignant tumor (antitumor effect) and metastasis (antimetastatic effect): the maximum therapeutic effect was found to be of 76.5% for the tumor growth inhibition; the increase of animal life span by 22% was found; the metastasis inhibition index was estimated as 48%.

CONCLUSION:

It was found that water-soluble pristine С(60) fullerenes efficiently inhibit the transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.




http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21956470

The blood. Water soluble fullerenes are distributed through the blood on the other hand C60 in olive oil is distributed through lymphatic system. If the tumor is encapsulated, as Zorba said, C60-OO can not get into the tumor but water solubles can. Cancer feeds on blood like a vampire.

[AgeVivo]

Clairvoyant, the sad truth about biology so far is that from "if a then b" and from "if b then c" you generally don't get "if a then c", unless the 2 initial propositions have been thoroughly tested in many various conditions, because the two "b" are unlikely to be same. So yes the conclusion you draw is logical from a mathematical point of view, but it needs to be tested and empirically I would say that it has most chances to be wrong and that something completely different could explain what you are trying to understand. This is why we need many people in labs to work on biology of aging and on lifespan tests; to put their hands in biology and test then think then test then think then test then....

[clairvoyant]

I agree with you, AgeVivo. When I was young I was competitor in maths. All I wanted to say is that water soluble C60 will gets into the cancer tissue for sure because tumor has blood vessels.

[AgeVivo]

As usual I have changed the cage tonight without giving food.
In 2 weeks my mice will turn 24 months, a symbol to me. I am looking at them: would you say they are old? really they do not look old. It's like having an old person doing jogging without effort and without wrinkles. Ok, they have largely lost their vibrissae, they clearly do not climb as well they used to several months ago, but look at their hair: it is really nice. And look at their shape: they don't have a curved back with no flesh: they look good. And look at how they move: not like an old mouse. Ok we don't know the strain, perhaps it is supposed to age quite late. And Ok the first mouse died. But I'm starting to believe it could well be the thing we were hoping to discover in 20 years. Perhaps after all a large part of ageing is due to some form of oxidative stress that most anti-oxydants do not tackle but that this one does. I don't have survival numbers to prove anything, but I have a feeling that something is going on, something that I was not seing with my previous mice. Anyway, my internal-scientist-resisting-mind comes back: let's see how long they live.
 2miceA_171112.JPG   51.85KB   34 downloads  2miceB_171112.JPG   162.52KB   37 downloads

[AgeVivo]

a video: http://agevivo.com/l...mice_171112.wmv
(I have taken 2 videos, in the other one which is after the cage change they are more active, but that other video is very dark)
About my previous post just above: if something is going on it would not necessarily be the antioxydant effect. It could be prolonged regenerative capacities of the body for example (which could be due to antioxydant or antiinflammatory properties/other)

Edited by AgeVivo, 17 November 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[niner]

The blood. Water soluble fullerenes are distributed through the blood on the other hand C60 in olive oil is distributed through lymphatic system. If the tumor is encapsulated, as Zorba said, C60-OO can not get into the tumor but water solubles can. Cancer feeds on blood like a vampire.

Initially, c60-oo is going to come in through the lymphatic system like other triglycerides, but eventually, after hydrolysis by lipases, the c60-fatty acid adduct is going to end up in the bloodstream.

[AgeVivo]

Pictures of my mice when feeding them 4 drops of c60oo on bread this morning
 2mice_181112.JPG   94.18KB   37 downloads  bw_181112.JPG   97.99KB   41 downloads  bb_181112.JPG   74.22KB   35 downloads

[Raphy]

Thanks Agevivo,

I jumped on the C60OO wagon. I'm young, but each passing day C60 looks less and less dangerous and more and more promising.

Thanks for the report and may your mice live long lives

Raphael

[AgeVivo]

Thank you. Yes, time should tell.
The best one can do obviously is not to wait for results but take action on other fronts as well (@home collaborative research framework, other actiosn linked to life extension)

[Adaptogen]

You are doing wonderful research, i thoroughly enjoyed reading every post in this topic. Your mice have such a nice, gleaming coat..i hope they live forever!

[mpe]

You say your mice are less active these days, could they simply be bored with their enclosure ?

[AgeVivo]

mpe, that might be the case. There are 2 things were I see that they are not as good as a few months before: they hang less well on things but it is more as if their claws were not as well maintained; also their sense of equilibrium is not as good: they do not stand for long on their rear legs obviously because they are not sure to be vertical.

[Adaptogen]

Interesting. I found this imagine and am curious how these 3, 24 month old mice compare to yours, at least in terms of appearance. (SRT1720 is given to mice on a high calorie diet. From left: mouse on standard diet, mouse on high calorie diet + SRT1720, mouse on high calorie diet and no SRT1720. Mice in second category lived 44 percent longer on average)

http://abcnews.go.co...71#.UK8prdesHkc

[AgeVivo]

like the one on the left but without the vibrissae (probably due to the irritation with the metal tip of the water bottle, this is very standard) and without so shiny eyes (perhaps a camera flash special effect). your mice in the center and the right are very ugly -- I had never saw such a mouse phenotype of aging before...

[AgeVivo]

As usual I have changed the cage tonight without giving food. It is difficult not to have any of my remarks be taken to great extents; my mice are less active as they used to be some time ago, but they still like climbing. It could be boredom indeed (or boredom linked to less functional bodies too). I've just taken a video where they climb, so that you don't imagine that they are in a bad shape. Hope to find the time to put it soon on the web.

[AgeVivo]

Oh, I see that the previous post has disapeared, or perhaps I forgot to submit it when I write it.

The mice are now 24 month old and still in good shape. This only thing that let me know that they are aging is that there back starts to curl in the middle, and the hair around that place is splightly sparse. But this is very subtle compared to what I have seen in the past with other mice. And their physical activity is limited, although it is not as if they had issues moving around, far from it.

Yesterday evening I changed the cage without giving food, as usual, and this morning I fed them 4 drops of c60oo on bread, as usual, before putting food back in the cage. Here is a picture of them yesterday evening before the cage change, a picture of them this morning before the treatment, pictures of them having their treatment and a video of them before the treatment, where we see that they are still in very good shape:
 2mice_011212.JPG   43.98KB   29 downloads  2mice_021212.JPG   57.29KB   36 downloads

Attached Files

•  bb_021212.JPG   82.33KB   24 downloads
•  bw_021212.JPG   46.31KB   20 downloads

[Adaptogen]

congrats, your mice look great!

[maxwatt]

AgeVivo's mice are very nice,
and for our testing will suffice.

[Hebbeh]

AgeVivo's mice are very nice,
and for our testing will suffice.

I see you are also experiencing nootropic effects from the C60!

[stephen_b]

AgeVivo's mice are very nice,
and for our testing will suffice.

I see you are also experiencing nootropic effects from the C60!

Just whatever you do don't add astaxanthin to the mix!

Edited by stephen_b, 03 December 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[maxwatt]

Rhodiola rosea counters that nicely. But I digress.

[AgeVivo]

The mice are doing well. I will start sending the solutions to pet owners next week as I think we have enough information to feel safe and hopefully positive to the pets of pet owners. Here are pictures before and after tonight's cage change. Tomorrow I will feed them with C60oo on bread as usual
 mice_081212.JPG   35.21KB   26 downloads  mice2_081212.JPG   69.19KB   29 downloads

[AgeVivo]

fed this morning
 bb_091212.JPG   84.43KB   30 downloads  bw_091212.JPG   79.83KB   31 downloads