526 replies to this topic

[niner]

Same for water. (they have a big water bottle with some methylene-blue-based fish-cleaning drops so that it doesn't turn bad)

Will the methylene blue taint any final results?

Not unless there's a hell of a lot of it.

[AgeVivo]

Hello. I think the mice are doing a little better than the previous days. Better hair and easily able to climb and stand on the balls. A little though: not easy to perceive differences on a day-to-day basis (a little like watching you children: you don't notice much difference unless you look at past pictures or have them go to long vacations and come back).

People are starting to send PMs to have a few mice or rats at home participate to the double blind C60oo or oo mprize at home that is starting very soon. If you are yourself interested please PM me or PM mind.

Edited by AgeVivo, 15 August 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[AgeVivo]

AgeVivo, how long is the average lifespan of the mice, that You are doing Your experiment with?

Hi Seivtcho, I think I had aldready answered, not in this thread perhaps. In the best lab conditions such as what is done by the ITP, life expectancy of mice is around 26 months:

It means that half of the mice die before, half the mice died after.

A non negligeable proportion starts to die between ages 18 and 20 months, which means that it is already good (/not bad) that my mice, who are now 20 months and a half are still alive (and seem healthy). Here are very nice (very long) lifespan curves in very good conditions:


This is in labs with very good conditions including "specific pathogen free" (SPF) conditions. Mice in labs that do not have SPF conditions die earlier. I do not have corresponding papers right now but if you search russians scientists for example (asimov, skq1...) you will have examples (don't hesitate to post survival pictures here). Concerning pets at home I have asked several times including in pethops but it is rarely precise. It seems they would rather die before age 2. However an australian won a mprize because he could make one mouse live very/incredibly long just by taking very good care of it (I remain surprised about that case as we don't see people live 150 or 200 year old around us just because they take much care of themselves, and humans now are similar lifespan curves as lab mice... perhaps it was coincidentally a very special mouse, or perhaps he discovered an elixir of youth for mice that did not seem to occur elsewhere).

So in a way, what I am getting is already good, but nothing conclusive at all. If my three mice make it to age 3, myself I will be very convinced that it works very well in mice. If they all die before age 2 I will think that the treatment did not work (of course it could be due to half dose/other; one has to be careful of course). If inbetween, I think it is definitely worth trying again, with controls. And I think it is already worth as my mice appear to be healthy (ok, not walking upside down anymore) at 20 months and a half.

Therefore, those who want to participate to mprize at home, you are welcome! It is starting now.

Edited by AgeVivo, 15 August 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[sthira]

1c) has something happened when I was out in vacations? Really I don't see it could. I have done that many times, everything was normal when I left and came back.

As you know, your mice have little emotional lives, too. They squeal, they giggle, perhaps they get sad and they missed your absence, too? You were paying them loads of attention with the new experiments, the cool, curious new cage configurations, the excitement of your actions, your renewed presence, the exotic foods... then ... poof... you went away for awhile. Could your sudden absence have had a bigger effect on them, especially now that they're older, than perceived?

[AgeVivo]

Could your sudden absence have had a bigger effect on them, especially now that they're older, than perceived?

Perhaps. In the past I went to vacations without noticing this, but perhaps I was not paying so much attention before my leave => the shock of comparative abandon. Seems a litle strange honestly but I understand that there is a correlation with my absence; why not.

[Logic]

If these stories are true; perhaps they did miss you.

"Gerd, the companion rat of Birgit Steich's son in Stuttgart, Germany. When armed burglars invaded the Steich's home, the wee warrior waged a sneak attack from his bookcase stronghold, sinking all four feet and teeth into the face of one crook. Gerd then darted up the pant leg of the second man to land upon a tender portion of the thief's anatomy. "The would-be burglars turned out to be suspects in a series of robberies and murders, but thanks to Gerd the hero rat, the Steich family were not among their victims," Dorothy Hoffman writes in Heroic Rats."

http://www.petrats.o...612_4h_RATS.jpg

"Fido, the Gumbley's 8-month-old companion rat, saved his family from fire inside their Devon, England home. At 2 a.m., the odor of smoke from an electric heater roused the sleeping rat. Fido fled his unlocked cage, but rather than scamper to safety the righteous rodent climbed a steep stairway to scratch out an sos to his sleeping family. Fido's urgent scratching awoke Megan, age 9, who alerted her family to the blazing carpet and furniture below. Thanks to Fido, everyone evacuated safely."

http://www.kinshipci...les/0034_3.html

[AgeVivo]

eh....nice. Well, I don't see my mice do such things ;-)

I confirm that it seems to me that my mice look better. I'll try to take pictures tomorrow. I am wondering if it could be something during my absence or if it is that within a week the c60 would do some gradual and temporary effect that then disappears. I guess not giving c60 this week-end would be a way to test ;-) I have to choose between giving 0, 2 or 4 drops this week-end ;-). The Mprize at home experiment will definitively be with 4 drops (in mice; and the right dose in rats).

Edited by AgeVivo, 15 August 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[AgeVivo]

It seems my mice are slightly less sportive than yesterday. The hair is good but not optimal. Again, comparison from one day to another is difficult (a little like looking at your balance every day ;-)

Ok, as promised I took pictures:
 all16082012.jpg   53.79KB   5 downloads  allcorner16082012.jpg   33.21KB   6 downloads  allhiddden16082012.jpg   45.36KB   8 downloads  nice16082012.jpg   64.71KB   9 downloads  bb160812.jpg   60.58KB   9 downloads  bw160812.jpg   73.81KB   8 downloads  bw160812_2.jpg   27.49KB   7 downloads  w160812.jpg   39.98KB   7 downloads Of note, while taking pictures, the one who had climbed on the platform was afraid by a noise of the camera, went down immediately and did not land correctly (a semi fall). Typically this would not have happen earlier.

Edited by AgeVivo, 16 August 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[AgeVivo]

My little mice look like previous days: they look good, healthy with a pretty nice hair but they don't go very much on the top of the balls, hardly go on the platform, and never (never in front of me at least) walk upside down anymore.

I have to choose between giving 0, 2 or 4 drops this week-end ;-). The Mprize at home experiment will definitively be with 4 drops (in mice; and the right dose in rats).

I have chosen to give 4 drops to all of them: to be more aligned with Baati et al and because this is what will be done for the Mprize at home experiment.
Here are pictures, as usual:
 bb180812.jpg   48.44KB   4 downloads  w180812.jpg   40.08KB   6 downloads  bw180812.jpg   36.54KB   5 downloads

[AgeVivo]

I had already that impression a few hours ago and I see it well right now: my mice are more active going everywhere, chasing each other... am I being subjective? I see the black and white one climb on the side on the ball
To be confirmed I guess with observations tomorrow and after. In any case I am very glad to have given 4 drops -- that was really the thing to do, at least not to have kept the doubt of low dose effect
 climb190812.jpg   55.66KB   12 downloads  allthree190812.jpg   81.95KB   11 downloads

Edited by AgeVivo, 19 August 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[sthira]

Thank you for your work and continued documentation; it's all quite compelling and exciting! Are your behavioral observations subjective? Of course! Few animal researchers ever claim complete objectivity. But that doesn't mean your subjective views are inaccurate or unimportant. Keep up your great work!

[AgeVivo]

Thank you. Continuing with what I see then: it is clear to me that this morning they are in very good shape, much improved compared to the last few days. A large portion of the time they stay on their rear legs, as they used to do when they were very impressive. I see them climbing on the balls. I wish I will see then walking upside down at some time he he. We will see.
If I was to pilot mprize at home as "my own playground" with a different protocol for each participant that would evolve in time depending on observations, rather than a statistical life extension verification, I would now:
- either give them 4 drops at least twice a week to see if indeed the dose and/or frequency boosts them
- or I would stop the treatment for 3 weeks (or less if they start being frail again) and start dosing again: to test if this is what happened during my absence

Edited by AgeVivo, 19 August 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[AgeVivo]

mice still doing good like yesterday

[AgeVivo]

mice doing well, I see them climb much on the balls but not on the platform. Playing together, being curious and looking happy so not sure this means anything.

[AgeVivo]

I've put a little of honey on bread over the platform tonight, wow: ver attractive! they smelled the air and turn in turn went on the platform. still robust and healthy my little mice!

this week-end I'll have to choose between no C60 or 4 drops. I'll think I'll choose "no C60" in order to feed them every other week like Baati et al and like we will do in Mprize at home

[zen]

...
this week-end I'll have to choose between no C60 or 4 drops. I'll think I'll choose "no C60" in order to feed them every other week like Baati et al and like we will do in Mprize at home

Since the plan for Mprize at home is to feed mice every other week, I think it would be more interesting if you decided to test the other avenue, i.e. "4 drops". Just my 2 cents...

[Hebbeh]

...
this week-end I'll have to choose between no C60 or 4 drops. I'll think I'll choose "no C60" in order to feed them every other week like Baati et al and like we will do in Mprize at home

Since the plan for Mprize at home is to feed mice every other week, I think it would be more interesting if you decided to test the other avenue, i.e. "4 drops". Just my 2 cents...

I agree. Let's see what we can get out of them...that's what lab mice are born to do! And that would probably more closely align with what most of the human lab rats are trialing. It sounds like more often dosing perks them up...lets try to keep them healthy.

[rwac]

It sounds like more often dosing perks them up...lets try to keep them healthy.

I wholeheartedly approve of this sentiment.

[niner]

I agree with the others that you should continue with the 4 drop dose. The goal isn't a precise duplication of Baati's experiment, but rather a replication of the key result, which is life extension in a mammal. Since the mice seem to do better with more frequent dosing, I'd stick with it for now.

[Logic]

I agree with the others that you should continue with the 4 drop dose. The goal isn't a precise duplication of Baati's experiment, but rather a replication of the key result, which is life extension in a mammal. Since the mice seem to do better with more frequent dosing, I'd stick with it for now.

+1

[AgeVivo]

Ok, understood: I will give them 4 drops this week-end.
I don't know if it is the treatment but it seems they are slowly getting better: they climb on balls again without any difficulty. We will see if it gets even better (and if they walk upside down again, we really I would be extremely surprised).

Edited by AgeVivo, 23 August 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[AgeVivo]

I have taken a video of them: http://agevivo.com/l...082012-mice.wmv

[AgeVivo]

Mice looking good; I'd say even slightly better than previous days. Nice hair, they climb and stand on the balls without difficulty, are active and play together. I am changing their cage tonight and will feed them 4 drops tomorrow morning.

[AgeVivo]

The mice seem to be doing better and better again. Perhaps the C60, perhaps other
I fed them with C60oo (4 drops), here are pictures as usual
 bw25082012.JPG   71.07KB   8 downloads  w25082012.JPG   69.84KB   10 downloads  bb25082012.JPG   43.52KB   7 downloads
Here is a video before feeding them: http://agevivo.com/l...ballsaround.wmv

Edited by AgeVivo, 25 August 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[AgeVivo]

Wow they look in great shape tonight. They go on balls, on the platform, slightly hang on the top. I'll check in the coming days, if it is a very temporary coincidence or not

Edited by AgeVivo, 25 August 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Logic]

Im glad they seem to have prked up again Agevivo.
Would you say they are 'looking' better than controls of the same age would?
I know one must try and remain objective...

[AgeVivo]

Would you say they are 'looking' better than controls of the same age would?

To me, yes, as well as to friends who have worked with aged mice in labs... Or rather: they are looking better than how mice generally look at the same age. But such a difference might be explained by the fact that I probably look at them more often than what is generally done; this is the issue with non double-blindness: there is always a possibility that the results you obtain are being influenced by your knowledge.

[Logic]

To me, yes, as well as to friends who have worked with aged mice in labs...

Well one couldnt ask for a more qualified opinion...

[AgeVivo]

now that they start to be on a routine dosage I am not reporting everday anymore, but basically they remain the same, fit and active.

[AgeVivo]

21 months and physically great. They play much, climb on the balls, chase each other, go to the side of the cage to see our movements, play in the straw...
As always tonight I'll change the cage, tomorrow I will feed them with C60oo.. but I will also give them a rolling wheel as a "birthday" gift ;^)

Edited by AgeVivo, 01 September 2012 - 04:30 PM.