526 replies to this topic

[AgeVivo]

Here is a photo and a video of the mice before feeding them yesterday:
 mice-020912.JPG   40.67KB   5 downloads - http://agevivo.com/l...mice-020912.avi

Here are photos of them while having C60oo on bread
 bw020912.JPG   61.13KB   6 downloads  w020912.JPG   45.16KB   6 downloads  bb020912.JPG   43.42KB   4 downloads

[AgeVivo]

Mice still looking 'young', active and healthy. I will change their cage tonight and feed them 4 drops tomorrow, as usual.

[Danail Bulgaria]

AgeVivo, how old are the mouses now?

[AgeVivo]

21 month old at the beginning of september; Time takes time

Here is a picture of them this morning before the feeding:  3mice090912.JPG   141.51KB   17 downloads

Here are pictures of them eating C60oo on bread just after:  bb090912.JPG   102.78KB   16 downloads  bw090912.JPG   163.88KB   12 downloads  w090912.JPG   108.6KB   9 downloads

[Turnbuckle]

Figure VI.1. Survival curves for females of 12 inbred strains of laboratory mice.

http://research.jax....LifeStudy2.html

Attached Files

•  Survival curves for females of 12 inbred strains of laboratory mice.png   24.94KB   76 downloads

[Mind]

This might have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but do you know the species of mice you have at home? If so, what is the median or average lifespan?

[AgeVivo]

This might have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but do you know the species of mice you have at home? If so, what is the median or average lifespan?

Answer is indeed here: http://www.longecity...post__p__529265 My mice were bought in a petshop and are therefore (contrary to labs) not of a specific strain. The average lifespan is numerically the same as median lifespan in mice (mice are not like bees or ants) and in a non-SPF environment one would expect it to be a few months below 26 months.

[orion602]

On last photos they seem to me to be fatter then in june. But maybe its just because they are closer and sitting. but still looking pretty neat and active for their age, almost like if they combed to look nice

[AgeVivo]

Mice looking very good, like previous weeks. I've changed their cage tonight and will feed them C60oo tomorrow morning. The solution I had is finished, so tomorrow I'll exceptionally use one that is half dosed. the authors of the paper told me they will give me some correctly dosed solution during the coming week.

[danniego]

I felt compelled to say:
Great log!
Great work you are doing!
I am following your log with great interest.
Keep it up (and the mice too )!

[AgeVivo]

Thank you, here are pictures of them while having C60oo, and a picture of the installation
 bb160912.JPG   38.87KB   10 downloads  bw160912.JPG   48.97KB   15 downloads  w160912.JPG   98.19KB   16 downloads  mice160912.JPG   94.61KB   13 downloads
Here is also a video: The black-and-white mouse (mostly black but with white belly) is the one that goes on the platform the most, but they all three go from time to time.

Edited by AgeVivo, 16 September 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[dz93]

Purified water? Tap water has fluoride and other harmful contaminants so purified water may help keep the mice healthy and smart.

[AgeVivo]

Purified water? Tap water has fluoride and other harmful contaminants so purified water may help keep the mice healthy and smart.

I am sending you a PM to clarify your question, and then discuss it here or were appropriate.

[dz93]

Updates?

[AgeVivo]

They are doing well, like last weeks. I will change their cage tonight and feed them C60oo tomorrow (reduced dose again, as the correct solution will be available next week).

(I could have answered that they all died, just for fun and to see reactions , but I guess the reactions would have been too strong for it to be perceived as a nice joke )

Edited by AgeVivo, 22 September 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

(I could have answered that they all died, just for fun and to see reactions , but I guess the reactions would have been too strong for it to be perceived as a nice joke )

Not only died, but died in horrible agony with massive tumors that appeared overnight. That would have created some excitement!

[dz93]

(I could have answered that they all died, just for fun and to see reactions , but I guess the reactions would have been too strong for it to be perceived as a nice joke )

Not only died, but died in horrible agony with massive tumors that appeared overnight. That would have created some excitement!

Lmao.

Well at least that's not the case here. Is it 25 months in yet?! Lol times takes forever.

[AgeVivo]

Pictures of them in their environment
 3miceC_230912.JPG   74.94KB   5 downloads 3 mice: what game can we do together?
 3miceB_230912.JPG   91.07KB   11 downloads White mouse going below black-and-white one to steel the wheel place ("my turn !")
 3miceA_230912.JPG   103.05KB   18 downloads Everyone on a task
Pictures of them taking C60+olive oil on bread
 b230912.JPG   71.79KB   20 downloads  bw230912.JPG   25.21KB   16 downloads  w230912.JPG   110.2KB   12 downloads

Edited by AgeVivo, 23 September 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[BobSeitz]

To my mind, the most important aspect of AgeVivo's three-mouse study is the safety issue. It will be wonderful if his pet mice enjoy extended life spans, but the key question in my book is, "Is C60oo safe?" If it is, then we can explore C60oo administration with some confidence; if it isn't, we may need to fall back and regroup.

On this coming Monday, October 1st, AgeVivo's mice will be about 22 months old. The average life span of laboratory mice is said to be around 26 months. If we take 78 years as the average life span for humans, then one month in a mouse' life will equate to 36 months or three years in the average human life span. In that case, AgeVivo's mice would have been about 54 years old in human terms when he began administering C60oo to them on the first of June. Four months later, on this coming Monday, October 1st, they'll be the human equivalent of 66 years of age, and they'll have survived the human equivalent of 12 years of C60oo administration with no apparent toxicity. They should reach their human-equivalent median life expectancy of 78 on the 1st of February, 2013, and should be the human equivalent of 90 on June 1, 2013. As of February 1, 2013, they'd pass the 24-year C60oo administration milestone, and as of June 1, 2013, they'd have reached the human equivalent of 36 years on C60oo (assuming that nothing untoward happens to them between now and then).

AgeVivo has noted that pet store mice probably won't live as long as laboratory mice that are kept in a controlled environment. Let's assume that the median/mean life span for pet store mice is 24 months. Also, AgeVivo's mice aren't being allowed to smoke or drink or drive their Harleys the wrong way down one-way streets. Consequently, let's suppose that AgeVivo's mice correspond to slightly healthier-than-average humans who have an average life span of 80. In that case, one month in the life of AgeVivo's mice would translate into 40 months or 3⅓ years in the life of a human. AgeVivo's mice would have been the human equivalent of 60 when he began feeding them buckyballs in olive oil on the first of June, and they will be the human equivalent of 73⅓ on Monday. At that rate, they will reach their median human-equivalent life expectancy of 80 on the first of December, with the human equivalent of 100 coming next June 1st (2013). As of this coming Monday, they will have braved C60oo ingestion for the human-equivalent period of 13⅓ years. By next June 1st, if they should survive that long, this number would reach the human equivalent of 40 years of C60oo intake.

At a minimum, AgeVivo's mice have already prospered for the human equivalent of 12-or-a-little-more years of C60oo administration, a fact that I find comforting.

At a minimum, AgeVivo's mice have already prospered for the human equivalent of 12-or-a-little-more years of C60oo administration, a fact that I find comforting.

(This sentence was supposed to be the last sentence in the above post.)

[niner]

To my mind, the most important aspect of AgeVivo's three-mouse study is the safety issue. It will be wonderful if his pet mice enjoy extended life spans, but the key question in my book is, "Is C60oo safe?" If it is, then we can explore C60oo administration with some confidence; if it isn't, we may need to fall back and regroup.

Well, The Baati paper was actually a tox test; they were trying to elicit toxic effects with large doses, and not only did they not find any significant toxicities but the rats lived a lot longer than the controls. That makes me feel a little better about it, even if they're rats, and there were only six of them. At least rats are mammals. It's too bad that efficacy and tox tests for life extension agents take so bloody long.

[AgeVivo]

Interesting calculations. For now the mice are still doing well, looking good, jumping around, playing together etc, like in previous weeks. Baati et al gave me some new C60oo solution during the week (0.8 mg/ml) so on Sunday morning I will feed them with the new C60oo solution.

[BobSeitz]

To my mind, the most important aspect of AgeVivo's three-mouse study is the safety issue. It will be wonderful if his pet mice enjoy extended life spans, but the key question in my book is, "Is C60oo safe?" If it is, then we can explore C60oo administration with some confidence; if it isn't, we may need to fall back and regroup.

Well, The Baati paper was actually a tox test; they were trying to elicit toxic effects with large doses, and not only did they not find any significant toxicities but the rats lived a lot longer than the controls. That makes me feel a little better about it, even if they're rats, and there were only six of them. At least rats are mammals. It's too bad that efficacy and tox tests for life extension agents take so bloody long.

Thanks, niner! Of course, you're absolutely right: I should have prefaced my remarks with a link to the Baati paper (Full Text Reference), but I didn't think of it. The Baati study is the archetypical C60-in-olive-oil toxicity experiment, and it points to a lifelong absence of C60oo toxicity (along with other supporting studies). AgeVivo's experiment is a "quick-and-dirty" effort to replicate the Baati results. And I mournfully agree that it will probably take years for a university team to secure the approvals and the funding to initiate a replicative study of their own, followed by years of longevity testing, and then six months to a year before they can write up their results, get them peer-reviewed, and published in the public domain. (Sigh!) But thanks again for correcting and clarifying my comments.

[AgeVivo]

Mice doing well, as usual. Here are today's pictures of them having C60oo (4 drops, 0.8mg/ml) and a picture of all 3 in the cage.
 bb300912.JPG   75.13KB   7 downloads  bw300912.JPG   81.07KB   8 downloads  mice300912.JPG   58.82KB   13 downloads  w300912.JPG   109.74KB   11 downloads

[AgeVivo]

As usual, tonight I have changed the cage to remove food and have them fast overnight to eat C60oo tomorrow without difficulty. The mice were slightly more quite this week and it seems to me gained weight (subtle perception of changes; I should have weighed them since the beginning I guess). The white mice has a less smooth hair currently and from time to time was breathing slowly with large amplitude: she might be slightly sick (move equivalent to cough? to clear throat? to breathe more clearly; I don't know). But apart from those times it is still curious and playing well: I don't foresee any death for a long time.

Edited by AgeVivo, 06 October 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Here are they having C60oo on bread (I took 3 pictures of the while mouse who is slightly ill; you can see with her hair that she did not take much care of her, which is typical of a mouse not being in its best shape)
 bw_091012.jpg   25.29KB   2 downloads  w1_091012.jpg   42.77KB   7 downloads  w2_091012.jpg   31.79KB   8 downloads  w3_091012.jpg   50.8KB   6 downloads  bb_091012.jpg   25.14KB   3 downloads
and some picture of them in the cage. We'll see if the illness is temporary. I patted her in my hands, she seemed to appreciate, I have not perceived any reaction of pain from her when caressing her and didn't feel under-skin bumps either; I guess it's more like a cold.
While talking about small problems, for quite some time the 3 mice have some irritation on their nose and have lost vibrissae; I don't bother about that because the same happens in labs and I was told it is the metal tip of the water bottle that irritates slightly when they drink and there is not much one can do (when you put water in a cuve the first reaction is to fill the cuve with straw/litter).
 all1_091012.jpg   67.14KB   3 downloads  all2_091012.jpg   33.05KB   1 downloads

Edited by AgeVivo, 07 October 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Oh, very big (bad) news, that I did not expect to happen now: the white mouse died overnight.

Yesterday evening she was in a bad shape: Her big respiration was more like gasps. But I thought it would be temporary. No. This morning I found her not moving. She was solid, I put her in a zip bag, in paper, in a freezer and I am going to investigate tonight what she might have had. In case some people can't stand the sight of organs/blood/other, I am planning not to put the autopsy pictures here. Perhaps in a subform thread for paid memberships, so that it is accessible by acquainted persons.

The white mouse did not look "old", really (see pictures above), so I am not concluding anything before seeing what happens to the other 2 mice, who for now are looking good. I wonder what may have happened to the white mouse: if it is ageing (and associated frailty/senstitivity to diseases), if she hurt herself by ingesting a slight piece of woodstick I gave them early last week (sometimes I give such sticks with mini "candies/vitamins for mice", it's not supposed to be bad), if it is the few cornflakes I gave on saturday (I do that from time to time I'm sure it is not that), if she fell and hurt herself, if the recent C60oo I gave was incorrectly prepared or if it has side effects and shouldn't therefore be given at old age, or not be given weekly for too long... I doubt I the autopsy will tell (I don't have specialized equipment) but I'll try.

PS: my wife tells me she was quite sure she would die overnight; so I have been too confident

Edited by AgeVivo, 09 October 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Logic]

That is bad news AgeVivo.

Im wondering if there is not someone in the community who has the equipment etc to do a thourogh autopsy with tests etc?

Edited by Logic, 09 October 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[AgeVivo]

My first guess is that it died from a hemothorax due to a neoplastic lung injury. This sounds very scientific but I suggest medical doctors/scientists who feel thtat can have their own opinion to look at the pictures of the autopsy to give their advice: http://www.longecity...tober-9th-2012/

Otherwise, I have found the body in very good shape. No sign of hypertension, heart trouble, kidney failure, liver failure, etc.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I tried to see the autopsy pictures, but wasn't able to view them. It is written that I do not have the permission to do that.

[Raphy]

Oh something's wrong.

+1, can't access the topic fo the autopsy, yet I am very interested by its conclusions.

That says I don't have the permission to view it.