150 replies to this topic

[mitomutant]

I have got PQQ from LEF today and I have just taken my first pill. 10 minutes later and I have not noticed anything. Nada.

I have posted in the past that I have a primary mitochondrial dysfunction due to a genetic condition. I already have an extremely efficient built-in mechanism for mitochondrial biogenesis, but only my mutant mitochondria seems to use this mechanism, probably triggered by sensing the lack of ATP. This is called red-ragged fibers - literally the muscle fiber breaks due to the tremendous amount of mitochondria that are created trying to compensate the lack of ATP. This was found in the 6% of fibers from my muscle biopsy.



Turnbuckle has posted that PQQ was working fine for him. So, I hope that PQQ can trigger mitochondrial biogenesis of my healthy mitos.

I will post any relevant update here. I do weight lifting (along this line, see this extremely interesing paper) 3 times per week. I guess changes - if any - should be noticed in my training in 1-2 weeks.

I also have MB and C60 (also got them today) in the pipeline, but let´s first see how PQQ works for me.

[Turnbuckle]

I do weight lifting (along this line, see this extremely interesing paper) 3 times per week. I guess changes - if any - should be noticed in my training in 1-2 weeks.

Wouldn't gene shifting be a temporary fix if the mutant mitochondria have a selection advantage? In which case, CoQ10 supplementation might help since it might get the mutants working again, and might make them visible to the autophagy mechanism. Supplements that encourage the fusion of mitochondria would also help eliminate mutants, once a few good mitochondria were obtained by gene shifting.

[Kevnzworld]

Turnbuckle was trying to reverse the adverse affects of Crestor use. Statins interfere with the livers ability to manufacture CoQ10, which creates muscle issues for many users.
I suspect it was the CoQ supplementation, not the PQQ that made the difference. I've been taking 20mg of PQQ for over a year. I don't " feel " any different, but I believe in the science.
I am always suspect of anecdotal posts about either notiiceably good or bad reactions to individual mutriceuticals. I never feel a difference, but I do see the difference on my blood tests.

[Turnbuckle]

I suspect it was the CoQ supplementation, not the PQQ that made the difference.

Not for me, as I was taking CoQ10 all along. I did increase it, but only some days after beginning the PQQ.

[mitomutant]

I do weight lifting (along this line, see this extremely interesing paper) 3 times per week. I guess changes - if any - should be noticed in my training in 1-2 weeks.

Wouldn't gene shifting be a temporary fix if the mutant mitochondria have a selection advantage? In which case, CoQ10 supplementation might help since it might get the mutants working again, and might make them visible to the autophagy mechanism. Supplements that encourage the fusion of mitochondria would also help eliminate mutants, once a few good mitochondria were obtained by gene shifting.

Yes, this is also my rationale. I have also increased my ubiquinol dose from 100mg to 200mg daily. There is another pathology test that shows how much residual capacity muscle fibers have. For red ragged fibers there is always some residual ATP generation capacity, so maybe Ubiquinol can help them to produce a little more ATP. As I suppose these mitochondria are structurally damaged, a little ROS should be enough to initiate apotosis/autophagy.

[mitomutant]

I suspect it was the CoQ supplementation, not the PQQ that made the difference.

Not for me, as I was taking CoQ10 all along. I did increase it, but only some days after beginning the PQQ.

Also my experience. CoQ10 - recently ubiquinol - was a life changer for me. It is literally the supplement that allows me do a quasi-normal life (I have still some energy crisis from time to time - recently improved with NADH supplementation)

[mitomutant]

Turnbuckle was trying to reverse the adverse affects of Crestor use. Statins interfere with the livers ability to manufacture CoQ10, which creates muscle issues for many users.
I suspect it was the CoQ supplementation, not the PQQ that made the difference. I've been taking 20mg of PQQ for over a year. I don't " feel " any different, but I believe in the science.
I am always suspect of anecdotal posts about either notiiceably good or bad reactions to individual mutriceuticals. I never feel a difference, but I do see the difference on my blood tests.

"Unfortunately" my blood work is all ok, and so it is my MRI, EKG, Echocardiogram, EMG and a dozen different tests I went through some years ago. Only a muscle biopsy - showing the red-ragged fibers mentioned above and a deletion in my mtDNA - revealed my condition.

[mitomutant]

Just a quick update: 3rd day on PQQ, first training session today. No changes. Today´s session was some speed work with light weights ("dynamic effort upper body" in westside periodization parlance), so I was not expecting any change either.

Maybe I woke up with more energy than usual, but nothing significant.

On Wednesday I have a heavy squat session ("Max effort"). If PQQ works, I do expect changes here. Let´s see.

[Cycnut]

I'm not trying to be negative, but mitochondria are oxidative. As such we should concern ourselfs with average powers and endurance aurguments if we are looking at mitochondrial support and gauging progress. Pure strength, max efforts, and hard anaerobic efforts are gonna be based upon neuromuscular development, ATP stores and creatine phosphate for the first 15+ seconds and dwindling across the next 120 seconds as aerobic metabolism spins up.

[mitomutant]

I'm not trying to be negative, but mitochondria are oxidative. As such we should concern ourselfs with average powers and endurance aurguments if we are looking at mitochondrial support and gauging progress. Pure strength, max efforts, and hard anaerobic efforts are gonna be based upon neuromuscular development, ATP stores and creatine phosphate for the first 15+ seconds and dwindling across the next 120 seconds as aerobic metabolism spins up.

All opinions are more than welcomed, and critical ones more so.

This is true ... to a degree. I see metabolism as a energy continuum and as such aerobic respiration is present even in max efforts attempts. There was a discussion about this some days ago here and here.

Also, I am trying to activate satellite cells - which are mutation free. This seems only to happen during the eccentric portion of a weight lifting session.

But as I fundamentally agree with you, all my accessory work is done high reps (12-15) and very short (30 secs) rest periods. This leaves me grasping for air real bad. Last, I do some spring training with my kids during weeksend and I am trying to incorporate some hill sprinting on a regular basis.

[mitomutant]

5th day on PQQ.

I have been feeling more energetic than usual since starting on PQQ, specially upon waking up. This is a consistent feeling since Sunday morning.

Done with my Max effort lower body workout:

• I hit a new PR on Squat (3x87,5kg => 93kg 1RM). This is normal as I am getting PRs once/twice per month.
• Today was a "killer" workout, but I was very motivated thinking that PQQ could work for me. Also, I get one of these "killers" workouts every now and then for no apparent reason
• Squats felt "smooth". I do not know how to better describe this feeling. Note that "smooth" does not mean "light" nor "easy".
• Energy was over the roof. I even did some 3 sets of kettlebell snatches as finishers. I rarely do these after a Max Effort day (unfortunately, I do not log finishers)
• Note in my training log for last Max Effort lower body (July 30th) workout (3x85kg) : "very heavy, 2-3 seconds grinding". Today´s note: "heavy, no grinding".

Does this mean that PQQ is working for me ? Nope.
Does it looks like it could work ? I think so.

I am going on holidays on Sat. 18th, so I still have 10 days and 4 workouts left (2 Max, 2 Dynamic). To make this as useful as possible for the community and for myself, I will set some "primary endpoints" to decide whether PQQ is working for me or not:

• All 4 workouts until Sat, 18th have to be "killer" workouts. A "killer" workout must include a PR (Max effort days only) and some finisher (kettlebells, treadmill sprints, rope jumps, etc).
• Upon waking up, I must feel good, rested and full of energy
• Performance at work should be optimal (next week is pretty difficult, as I need to close several important issues before leaving for holidays)

Feel free to suggest additional endpoints.

My PQQ dosage is 10mg/day upon waking up

Edited by mitomutant, 08 August 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[balance]

I think you're overestimating how much you'll notice from PQQ. It's a great supplement, but like so many works on the molecular level and thus isn't gonna be the difference between night or day psychology wise or fysiology wise. I've been taking it for a long time, 40mg a day, I never notice anything, but that doesn't matter to me. It's great that you're taking it, but don't underestimate psychology here in terms of what you're supposedly feeling or not feeling...

[mitomutant]

works on the molecular level

I am a mess at the molecular level

don't underestimate psychology here in terms of what you're supposedly feeling or not feeling...

Fully agree, but the psychological effects will eventually fade and we will only have the hard facts.

[mitomutant]

7th day on PQQ.

Yesterday´s (Aug 10) results:

• All 4 workouts until Sat, 18th have to be "killer" workouts. A "killer" workout must include a PR (Max effort days only) and some finisher (kettlebells, treadmill sprints, rope jumps, etc). OK
• Upon waking up, I must feel good, rested and full of energy KO (possibly due to extremely high temperatures at night - 33 C/91.4 F)
• Performance at work should be optimal (next week is pretty difficult, as I need to close several important issues before leaving for holidays OK

[dear mrclock]

mitomutant by all due respect for PQQ to be said it works in any way, you should be taking it only by itself without any other supplements and watch your diet too not to interfere in any positive or negative way to it. so i must say maybe its a combo of supplements and foods you consume that either results can be influenced and this whole experiment with it is kind of useless.

[curious_sle]

Have you considered benagene?

[mitomutant]

mitomutant by all due respect for PQQ to be said it works in any way, you should be taking it only by itself without any other supplements and watch your diet too not to interfere in any positive or negative way to it. so i must say maybe its a combo of supplements and foods you consume that either results can be influenced and this whole experiment with it is kind of useless.

Thanks for the suggestion, but note that I am not testing PQQ itself, by the effect it has on my quality of life. Note, however, that I have not changed much after starting PQQ (just increased by ubiquinol dosage from 100mg to 200mg daily). Diet and training have not changed.

Have you considered benagene?

I tried AOR Mito charger a couple of years ago, but did not noticed any effect. Good that you mention benagene. I haven´t seen much comments about it lately, but maybe it is time to "refresh" info about it.
Thanks.

[dear mrclock]

mito, how did you found out you have some mitochondrial dysfunction ? i assume any gene testing or such as mitochondria test might be really expensive and maybe even not as accurate in the times we live. i mean, definately not as easy to read as blood test.

[mitomutant]

mito, how did you found out you have some mitochondrial dysfunction ? i assume any gene testing or such as mitochondria test might be really expensive and maybe even not as accurate in the times we live. i mean, definately not as easy to read as blood test.

Muscle biopsy of my biceps brachialis. Pathological examination showed red ragged fibers and genetic testing revealed a single deletion in my mitochondrial DNA. This is the gold standard for the diagnosis of mitochondrial myopathies.

My health insurance paid for it

[dear mrclock]

but thats not uncommon. lots of people (men especially) have mitochondrial deletions and what not cuz mitochondria is only passed by the female and it is prompted to mutations in males.

do you know how expensive genetic testing can be ? maybe i try it...

[mitomutant]

but thats not uncommon. lots of people (men especially) have mitochondrial deletions and what not cuz mitochondria is only passed by the female and it is prompted to mutations in males.

do you know how expensive genetic testing can be ? maybe i try it...

Many of them are sporadic cases, i.e., not inherited from the mother. This is indeed my case. Note also that there is at least one documented case of paternal inheritance of a mtDNA deletion.

Do you suspect you might have some mitochondrial myopathy ? What are your symptons ? Note that before the muscle biopsy I went through dozens of different tests to discard more common problems (first one to discarded was Myasthenia gravis). Here and here you can find a good summary.

Edited by mitomutant, 14 August 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[hamishm00]

Are you taking carnosine as well as the PQQ? Carnosine may help weed out defective mitochondria. I would assume this would include mitochondria with dna deletions.

Mitomutant - are we talking about a 4977 bp (common) deletion in your case?

[mitomutant]

Are you taking carnosine as well as the PQQ? Carnosine may help weed out defective mitochondria. I would assume this would include mitochondria with dna deletions.

Nope. I think I took it sometime in the past (LEFT mito energy optimizer ?). Can you please give me some reference about Carnosine and mitochondrial wiping ? Thanks.

Mitomutant - are we talking about a 4977 bp (common) deletion in your case?

I think so. The genetic report (see attached picture) does not specify it. Asking the pathologist, he told me the following (loosely translated from Spanish):

"Answering your question ... in our laboratory we don´t do a exact mapping of the position of the mtDNA deletion. Doing, however, an approximate calculation of the electrophoretic blotting image I can tell you that the aprox. size of the deletion is 4.7Kb, suggesting that it is indeed the 'common deletion' "

Attached Files

•  mtdna_deletion.png   6.95KB   21 downloads

[mitomutant]

10th day on PQQ.

Yesterday´s (Aug 13) results:

• All 4 workouts until Sat, 18th have to be "killer" workouts. A "killer" workout must include a PR (Max effort days only) and some finisher (kettlebells, treadmill sprints, rope jumps, etc). OK
• Upon waking up, I must feel good, rested and full of energy OK
• Performance at work should be optimal (next week is pretty difficult, as I need to close several important issues before leaving for holidays OK

Edited by mitomutant, 14 August 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[dear mrclock]

but thats not uncommon. lots of people (men especially) have mitochondrial deletions and what not cuz mitochondria is only passed by the female and it is prompted to mutations in males.

do you know how expensive genetic testing can be ? maybe i try it...

Many of them are sporadic cases, i.e., not inherited from the mother. This is indeed my case. Note also that there is at least one documented case of paternal inheritance of a mtDNA deletion.

Do you suspect you might have some mitochondrial myopathy ? What are your symptons ? Note that before the muscle biopsy I went through dozens of different tests to discard more common problems (first one to discarded was Myasthenia gravis). Here and here you can find a good summary.

im not sure. but i suffer from extreme chronic fatigue. it gets so bad i cant even walk at times, cant feel my body. seems some supplements help temporary but nothing solid.

[mitomutant]

but thats not uncommon. lots of people (men especially) have mitochondrial deletions and what not cuz mitochondria is only passed by the female and it is prompted to mutations in males.

do you know how expensive genetic testing can be ? maybe i try it...

Many of them are sporadic cases, i.e., not inherited from the mother. This is indeed my case. Note also that there is at least one documented case of paternal inheritance of a mtDNA deletion.

Do you suspect you might have some mitochondrial myopathy ? What are your symptons ? Note that before the muscle biopsy I went through dozens of different tests to discard more common problems (first one to discarded was Myasthenia gravis). Here and here you can find a good summary.

im not sure. but i suffer from extreme chronic fatigue. it gets so bad i cant even walk at times, cant feel my body. seems some supplements help temporary but nothing solid.

I have never talked to a mitochondrial myopathy patient whose only symptom was fatigue, so probably you don´t have a mitochondrial myopathy. It could be a myopathy (literally, muscle disease), but there are many types of them and doing a self-diagnosis is nearly impossible.

My recommendation is to invest your time looking for a good neuro, so he can start doing a solid deferential diagnosis. Once you have a diagnosis - mine took 2 years - you will have something to "attack".

[dear mrclock]

wow 2 years. jeez. at least you have health insurance. it will cost a lot.

[curious_sle]

Might be interesting http://clinicallypsy...y-neuroscience/

[niner]

Might be interesting http://clinicallypsy...y-neuroscience/

These guys find that vitamin K2 improves the function of genetically crippled mitochondria. That is presumably the quinone moiety of the K2 acting like ubiquinon/ol.

[stephen_b]

Very interesting, thanks for posting. I've found that 5-10 mg of K2-MK4 really helps my legs deal with 40-50 miles a week, particularly with lower leg/plantar fascia pain. I had attributed it to K2 getting the calcium out of soft tissue, but maybe there is another explanation.