1725 replies to this topic

[Amorphous]

The group buy is not over yet. Actually, we are still waiting for our PRL from the European custom synthesis lab. There has been several delays in the synthesis. Hopefully, the PRL we are going to get is better than the one we are currently testing.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

In the pursuit of synergy, I've been trying PRL-8-53 with a lot of other stuff recently. I think I just hit a real winner (more so than just with Coluracetam, by a long shot)

10mg PRL-8-53 + 10mg Coluracetam + 100mg Tianeptine + 150mg Armodafinil + 50mg 2-FMA + 100mcg Clonidine

Plus my normal daily selegiline, ALCAR, alpha lipoic acid, PQQ, methylene blue, vitamins, etc

Absolutely great feeling, and highly productive. I'd describe it as completely wired euphoria with the focus of a high powered laser diode . And the clonidine is keeping me firmly within the bounds of normotensive (BP 110/76). Definitely a new level of productivity judging by the speed with which I studied several highly technical chapters of assigned reading, and completed my homework in under half the time I normally allot.

I've taken pretty much everything out there the world of nootropics, RCs and stimulants, and this is leaps and bounds above any previous substance/combination I've been on before.

Edit: I'll try running some concrete tests on cognitive function and report back later.

Second edit: All right... well for one my forward digit span is 19 from a baseline of 11, and my reaction time is 185ms from a baseline of 232ms. Clearly this more than a euphoric placebo, as my completed stack of homework/reading can already attest. Neither of these measures were affected by the PRL alone (well, with selegiline technically), so I suspect there must be some additional synergy going on here, as the same combo without PRL isn't as dramatic. Only side effect to be reported is dry mouth. That, and my time perception is definitely sped up a lot more than any one compound can account for. 20 minutes seems like an hour, but I don't feel bored working on the same thing for "hours" on end.

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 12 November 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Nattzor]

In the pursuit of synergy, I've been trying PRL-8-53 with a lot of other stuff recently. I think I just hit a real winner (more so than just with Coluracetam, by a long shot)

10mg PRL-8-53 + 10mg Coluracetam + 100mg Tianeptine + 150mg Armodafinil + 50mg 2-FMA + 100mcg Clonidine

Plus my normal daily selegiline, ALCAR, alpha lipoic acid, PQQ, methylene blue, vitamins, etc

Absolutely great feeling, and highly productive. I'd describe it as completely wired euphoria with the focus of a high powered laser diode . And the clonidine is keeping me firmly within the bounds of normotensive (BP 110/76). Definitely a new level of productivity judging by the speed with which I studied several highly technical chapters of assigned reading, and completed my homework in under half the time I normally allot.

I've taken pretty much everything out there the world of nootropics, RCs and stimulants, and this is leaps and bounds above any previous substance/combination I've been on before.

Edit: I'll try running some concrete tests on cognitive function and report back later.

Second edit: All right... well for one my forward digit span is 19 from a baseline of 11, and my reaction time is 185ms from a baseline of 232ms. Clearly this more than a euphoric placebo, as my completed stack of homework/reading can already attest. Neither of these measures were affected by the PRL alone (well, with selegiline technically), so I suspect there must be some additional synergy going on here, as the same combo without PRL isn't as dramatic. Only side effect to be reported is dry mouth. That, and my time perception is definitely sped up a lot more than any one compound can account for. 20 minutes seems like an hour, but I don't feel bored working on the same thing for "hours" on end.

Damn, you have tons of variables, but 11 is insane, 19 is unheard of! Have you tried the same stack before without PRL and done the tests?

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Damn, you have tons of variables, but 11 is insane, 19 is unheard of! Have you tried the same stack before without PRL and done the tests?

Hah, well I am a high preformer naturally

I'm a much "higher" performer from the selegiline+tianeptine (and less so 2-FMA)

Yeah, forward digit span 11->15 and the roughly same drop in reaction time without PRL. PRL is clearly having some effect on short term memory in this case that it didn't with just selegiline. At this point I'm more focused on first finding an optimal stack through trial and error with compound addition and binary search for the correct dosage and then scientifically figuring out what does what.

Edit: I'd had roughly the same result with Sunifiram on digit span, but no where near the level of overall global cognitive function. Actually 19 isn't unheard of by any means, but surprisingly is above most autistic savants. Wish I hadn't been busy the day Daniel Tammet did an AMA on reddit, I had a lot of questions I wanted to ask, and he is by no means the "norm" of savants. I'm not consciously chunking data through any system, but large groups of numbers do sort of naturally break into fours for me. My college roommate freshman year joked that I was a "baby savant" I suppose it was only a natural progression to become obsessed with pushing my cognitive abilities farther after I read "Born on a Blue Day"

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 12 November 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

Mmm, interesting. What score do you get on Paired Associates on Cambridge Brain Sciences normally and when on this stack?

[Nootropic Milk Hotel]

In the pursuit of synergy, I've been trying PRL-8-53 with a lot of other stuff recently. I think I just hit a real winner (more so than just with Coluracetam, by a long shot)

10mg PRL-8-53 + 10mg Coluracetam + 100mg Tianeptine + 150mg Armodafinil + 50mg 2-FMA + 100mcg Clonidine

Plus my normal daily selegiline, ALCAR, alpha lipoic acid, PQQ, methylene blue, vitamins, etc

Sounds a whole lot like what I have been taking, with similar results. I'm on Adderall, clonidine, PRL-8-53, PQQ, CoQ-10, shilajit, Lion's Mane, bacopa, ALCAR, fish oil, multivitamin, creatine, and occasionally artichoke extract, idebenone and nefiracetam, and I have been using a laser. I'm sure not all of these have significant roles to play in the effect, but I'm curious as to what the neat interaction here is. I have been feeling excellent and getting lots of things done lately :3

[Amorphous]

I

Absolutely great feeling, and highly productive. I'd describe it as completely wired euphoria with the focus of a high powered laser diode . And the clonidine is keeping me firmly within the bounds of normotensive (BP 110/76). Definitely a new level of productivity judging by the speed with which I studied several highly technical chapters of assigned reading, and completed my homework in under half the time I normally allot.

Why are you taking clonidine? This is a centrally acting alpha-2 agonist for severe hypertension. Is it because of the stack you are taking or before you started the stack?

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Why are you taking clonidine? This is a centrally acting alpha-2 agonist for severe hypertension. Is it because of the stack you are taking or before you started the stack?

Abrogate stimulant+MAOI induced hypertension from 2-FMA+Selegiline. The hypertension isn't terrible (especially considering 50mg of other amphetamines with other MAOIs could be fatally so), but I prefer keeping my systolic BP under 120 while on stims.

[IA87]

3AlarmLampscooter,

Can you try to narrow down exactly which components are increasing your digit span and productivity?

Also, is there any way you can post a graph of your progress with some screenshots that evidence the high digit span? I am having trouble believing a 11 -> 19 consistent digit span increase, though with practice digit span can increase.

[PWAIN]

3AlarmLampscooter,

Can you try to narrow down exactly which components are increasing your digit span and productivity?

+1

[middpanther88]

3AlarmLampscooter,

Can you try to narrow down exactly which components are increasing your digit span and productivity?

+1

+1

[3AlarmLampscooter]

I hypothesized the combination of PRL-8-53+Coluracetam+2-FMA specifically somehow is responsible for most of the synergistic effects, with the selegiline playing some role also. Went ahead and redosed on those tonight, and this time got a forward digit span of 11->17, and similar drop in reaction time. Significantly less euphoric without the tianeptine+armodafinil (no surprise there), and definitely not quite the same feeling of mental quickness, but still very similar overall.

Coluracetam 10mg in isolation previously had minimal effect on reaction time, but did raise digit span from 10 to 14 (I was dumb that day, I guess ), and some portion of the clearness in thought is evident on coluracetam alone. 2-FMA has no effect on my digit span, but does drop reaction time fairly reliably below 200ms at 30-50mg doses (it's a good bit less potent by weight than many other amphetamines), and does provide motivating qualities. As I mentioned before, PRL-8-53 in isolation didn't affect digit span or reaction time (granted, that was a 5mg dose), and functioned mostly by increasing information retention, but did display some mild stimulant properties itself.

Previously mixing coluracetam and 2-FMA seemed like I experienced maybe a bit above the sum of their effects. I'd done it a lot, and never thought to quantify it, but my hypothesis is there isn't any huge magic there. PRL-8-53+Coluracetam definitely had some synergy (as a couple other people reported), but again I didn't run tests that time but would subjectively say it was a good bit lower than PRL-8-53+Coluracetam+2-FMA. I'll repeat Coluracetam+2-FMA, PRL-8-53+Coluracetam and PRL-8-53+2-FMA in the future specifically to get hard data.

I'm going to say PRL-8-53+Coluracetam+2-FMA seems to be responsible for the bulk of the 1+1+1=5 effect. For whatever reason, those three in combination seem to do a lot more than any one or two of the three can alone. Removing Armodafinil and Tianeptine definitely did diminish the effects, but to a small enough degree to appear mostly additive instead of synergistic.

I did neglect to mention I take clonidine with most of my 2-FMA doses to reverse the mild hypertension, but from everything I've read I'd largely discount this as having any serious mental effect on this stack. Although guanfacine does, if only I could find any, anywhere.

Of course the selegiline is quite likely potentiating everything to at least some degree also, but I'd have to take a fairly long washout period and return to being a mere mortal with active MAO-B in my brain to control for that

I've really been trying to wrap my mind around exactly why this synergy might be occurring though. The unfortunate part is we're dealing mostly with poorly researched drugs that have partially to fully unknown MoAs, and in the case of 2-FMA no data on something as simple as DAT/SERT/NET binding even! Although 2-FMA does display a lot of differences from d-amphetamine, it is probably the closest in subjective effects to any other, and at least a plausible stand-in lacking any better data.

This is about the best I've been able to come up with yet: Amphetamine increases acetylcholine release, apparently heavily mediated through dopamine. Tianeptine of course is dopaminergic (and reduces norepinephrine release, which prevents stress induced cognitive impairment), and also prevents stress-induced hippocampal remodeling. Modafinil is also dopaminergic as a DRI, while reducing GABA. Selegiline of course prevents the oxidative breakdown of dopamine. Coluracetam functions as a choline uptake enhancer, leading to greatly increased acetylcholine production (and of course also an ampakine).

Unfortunately not a lot is known about how exactly PRL-8-53 plays into this, but it may be some form of VMAT2-enhancer. I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of 2-FMAs differences in effects from d-amphetamine are attributable reduced VMAT2 inhibition, as this seems to be a trend among other phenethylamines that don't produce lasting "hangovers". It also appears especially likely that halogen ring substituted amphetamines may be much less active at VMAT2 than their unhalogenated counterparts, as para-chloroamphetamine was singled out as an unexpectedly weak VMAT2 inhibitor, despite the fact that it is a fairly potent neurotoxin (not an issue with the fluorinated amphetamines, by the way). At least what is known of PRL-8-53 is that it "potentiates dopamine" and "partially inhibits serotonin" and is "cholinergic". Not very specific by modern standards

Putting it all together, simultaneous huge increases in dopamine and acetylcholine combined with positive allosteric modulation of ampa receptors and decreases in GABA release along with a slew of other secondary and tertiary effects, many of which I probably haven't come across yet seem to lead to the synergy of this particular stack. There is still a ton of room for further improvement. I'm looking at you, a7 nicotinic agonists

Ultimately I think the largely unknown MoAs of PRL-8-53 and 2-FMA hold the real keys to the unexplained parts of the synergy here, but if they both interact atypically with VMAT2, it may explain why they play so well together. I'd be interested to try swapping out 2-FMA for a dose of equivalent stimulant potency of dexedrine, and see if the effects are indeed reduced.

I also ran across an interesting paper on piracetam-induced amphetamine potentiation: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22607774

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 13 November 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Thor]

Hi 3AlarmLampscooter, how long have you been taking this stack? And do you consider it sustainable?

Edited by Thor, 13 November 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[DefaOmega]

3AlarmLampscooter- Your stack sounds amazing. I started looking at the individual components of it, most of which I'd never heard of and found them to be unattainable. Though hearing that PRL-8-53 + Coluracetam (which for me are attainable) are synergistic is interesting enough to possible get me to try it. 2-FMA doesn't appear to be sold anywhere, and Selegiline is apparently by prescription only.

I've stopped taking all nootropics for awhile now to cleanse before possibly taking PRL-8-53. I've also been doing CambridgeBrainGames to get a baseline. Would it be better to test PRL-8-53 and Coluracetam individually before combining them to test their synergy.

Edit: As soon as I wrote this I knew there was no reason to ask about testing each individually as it's obviously the way to go.

Edited by DefaOmega, 13 November 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Hi 3AlarmLampscooter, how long have you been taking this stack? And do you consider it sustainable?

I took it once yesterday, and again the modified version as I mentioned.

Although no adverse effects yet. In fact, I slept only 4 hours last night and woke up feeling totally rested. I'm not certain on sustainability; but I'm not overly concerned about the possibility of adverse events given the powerful anti-excitotoxic properties of Coluracetam, and rather silly number of antioxidants I'm currently on.

Taken in isolation, 2-FMA probably does display some mild neurotoxicity. Although given the countless case reports on RC forums of people who've ingested stupidly high doses of it day after day for months and generally suffered nothing but symptoms related to vasoconstriction; I'd say it is probably at most as neurotoxic as d-amphetamine, and quite probably less so. The important thing to remember though is that Modafinil, Selegiline and Coluracetam are all proven to interact with amphetamines to reduce neurotoxicity, plus many of the "silly number" of antioxidants I take.

The biggest word of caution I give anyone thinking of trying this is to be sure you aren't someone who for whatever reason is extremely sensitive to Selegiline-Stimulant synergistic hypertension. Stimulants are technically contraindicated with selegiline due to this risk, and I urge you to start dosing in the hundred of microgram range and slowly work your way up. I remember being apprehensive first trying 250mcg of dexedrine, and standing by labetalol... but as it turns out I'm one of the lucky ones who can take 5mg/day of selegiline and still take stimulants with only very mild induced hypertension (hence the clonidine...)

Also re:screenshot of my digit span on the two different combos. Apparently I'm beyond the 1%

Edit: Actually the second test on there appears the one I took coming down on the first combo (~t=4h), the test of the second combo is from an old account I was using a while back to study performance reducing effects of extended sleep deprivation unmedicated (hence some of the particularly shitty scores ). tl;dr on that is memory was one of the last things to go.

Cool to look at cambridgebrainsciences.com's distribution of digit span in the population.
Span-Count
3 - 272
4 - 1942
5 - 7508
6 - 12128
7 - 11907
8 - 8242
9 - 3995
10 - 1598
11 - 391
12 - 189
13 - 96
14 - 79
15 - 67
16 - 57
17 - 31
18 - 30
19 - 39
20 - 20
21 - 22
22 - 15
23 - 9
24 - 10
25 - 23
26 - 10
27 - 2
29 - 2
30 - 1
31 - 4
32 - 2
37 - 2
41 - 2
44 - 1
48 - 2

And a small distribution of similarly sparse numbers out to one person at 411. Although I'm highly skeptical of the validity of most scores out of the 30s, a good example being 13 people scored 110. Perhaps some of those are legitimate. Regardless, it is a heck of a lot better data on digit span in the population than any scientific paper I've ever read.

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 13 November 2013 - 11:07 PM.

[middpanther88]

Has anyone else tried Coluracetam + PRL

[samohT]

I keep seeing the word coluracetam popping up EVERYWHERE these days. That, I will look into, if it is synergistic with PRL. I just started Phenylpiracetam... Idk how related it and Coluracetam are. I'm reading in the Colu wiki that it's the only choline uptake enhancer known to exist? Hm.
But now I'm just off topic...

[xks201]

Lol. The 2fma love cracks me up. Everyone is like why doesnt newstar sell that? Lol

and thats one hell of a combo
Tienaptine or whatever was a chemical lobotomy for me. I imagine without that downer in your stack youd be bouncing off the walls with all of those uppers.

[Godof Smallthings]

Hi 3AlarmLampscooter, how long have you been taking this stack? And do you consider it sustainable?

I took it once yesterday, and again the modified version as I mentioned.

Although no adverse effects yet. In fact, I slept only 4 hours last night and woke up feeling totally rested. I'm not certain on sustainability; but I'm not overly concerned about the possibility of adverse events given the powerful anti-excitotoxic properties of Coluracetam, and rather silly number of antioxidants I'm currently on.

Taken in isolation, 2-FMA probably does display some mild neurotoxicity. Although given the countless case reports on RC forums of people who've ingested stupidly high doses of it day after day for months and generally suffered nothing but symptoms related to vasoconstriction; I'd say it is probably at most as neurotoxic as d-amphetamine, and quite probably less so. The important thing to remember though is that Modafinil, Selegiline and Coluracetam are all proven to interact with amphetamines to reduce neurotoxicity, plus many of the "silly number" of antioxidants I take.

The biggest word of caution I give anyone thinking of trying this is to be sure you aren't someone who for whatever reason is extremely sensitive to Selegiline-Stimulant synergistic hypertension. Stimulants are technically contraindicated with selegiline due to this risk, and I urge you to start dosing in the hundred of microgram range and slowly work your way up. I remember being apprehensive first trying 250mcg of dexedrine, and standing by labetalol... but as it turns out I'm one of the lucky ones who can take 5mg/day of selegiline and still take stimulants with only very mild induced hypertension (hence the clonidine...)

Also re:screenshot of my digit span on the two different combos. Apparently I'm beyond the 1%

Edit: Actually the second test on there appears the one I took coming down on the first combo (~t=4h), the test of the second combo is from an old account I was using a while back to study performance reducing effects of extended sleep deprivation unmedicated (hence some of the particularly shitty scores ). tl;dr on that is memory was one of the last things to go.

Cool to look at cambridgebrainsciences.com's distribution of digit span in the population.
Span-Count
3 - 272
4 - 1942
5 - 7508
6 - 12128
7 - 11907
8 - 8242
9 - 3995
10 - 1598
11 - 391
12 - 189
13 - 96
14 - 79
15 - 67
16 - 57
17 - 31
18 - 30
19 - 39
20 - 20
21 - 22
22 - 15
23 - 9
24 - 10
25 - 23
26 - 10
27 - 2
29 - 2
30 - 1
31 - 4
32 - 2
37 - 2
41 - 2
44 - 1
48 - 2

And a small distribution of similarly sparse numbers out to one person at 411. Although I'm highly skeptical of the validity of most scores out of the 30s, a good example being 13 people scored 110. Perhaps some of those are legitimate. Regardless, it is a heck of a lot better data on digit span in the population than any scientific paper I've ever read.

Thanks - that is pretty amazing! Would love to see your results for the entire battery of Cambridge Brain Sciences tests if you can find the time to do and post.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Lol. The 2fma love cracks me up. Everyone is like why doesnt newstar sell that? Lol

Being US based, probably scared of the federal analog act. Realistically, 2-FMA is pretty unlikely to be covered based on previous caselaw and the difference in effects from current schedule 1/2 compounds, especially being a methamphetamine derivative with subjective effects more similar to dextroamphetamine, but still substantially different. You'd pretty well end up accidentally down-scheduling Phentermine (and anything similar) to successfully argue 2-FMA as a schedule 1/2 analog. Although a few states have specifically outlawed all fluoroamphetamines, or have much more open-ended unchallenged analog acts, check your local laws.

and thats one hell of a combo

Tienaptine or whatever was a chemical lobotomy for me. I imagine without that downer in your stack youd be bouncing off the walls with all of those uppers.

Fortunately nothing shy of 4-5g of caffeine gets me bouncing off the walls

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Quick followup. Ended up having an unexpectedly large amount of work come up this morning, so took my original stack from this post again, although with 10mg less 2-FMA because I was better rested. Same effects, so after an hour I decided to try a puff on an ecig to see how nicotine interacted. Unfortunately, badly. I usually react well to nicotine, taking up to 12mg orally; but even a single puff from the ecig gave me moderate nausea and a sort of "swimmy" spaced out feeling for a good half hour. After that effects from the stack returned to where they were before.

All the more reason to start looking at selective alpha 7 nicotinic agonists+PAMs to to group buys of, as I assume these adverse effects are from nicotine's nonselective agonism including autonomic alph3/beta4 receptors.

[MasterHerb]

Has anyone tried stacking PRL with Oxiracetam?

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Has anyone tried stacking PRL with Oxiracetam?

Gave it a try, seemed to be mostly a 1+1 effect. They go well together, but I didn't notice any serious synergy.

[kylehere]

Has anyone tried this with sunifiram, coluracetam or unifiram ?

edit: derp, scrolling up would help. How about suni?

more edits: didn't scroll far enough. Well, any other reports on the synergy between these molecules?

Edited by kylehere, 17 November 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[middpanther88]

Wondering the same thing

[MizTen]

Has anyone tried this with sunifiram, coluracetam or unifiram ?

edit: derp, scrolling up would help. How about suni?

more edits: didn't scroll far enough. Well, any other reports on the synergy between these molecules?

I did all the above this AM. Nothing different. Maybe they cancelled each other out. But I think the PRL 8-147 does synergize with IRDA-21, I'm just not confident on the safety of that combo.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Has anyone tried this with sunifiram, coluracetam or unifiram ?

edit: derp, scrolling up would help. How about suni?

more edits: didn't scroll far enough. Well, any other reports on the synergy between these molecules?

I did all the above this AM. Nothing different. Maybe they cancelled each other out. But I think the PRL 8-147 does synergize with IRDA-21, I'm just not confident on the safety of that combo.

Try just the coluracetam, I had luck with that. I also tried the unifiram and found it didn't do much. I didn't try the sunifiram either because I'm a bit worried about possible adverse interaction too.

On an unrelated note, I finally smoked enough weed tonight to bring my digit span test down to 7... and then thought to myself "Holy shit, most people's short term memory is this terrible all the time!?". I'm an asshole

Edited by 3AlarmLampscooter, 17 November 2013 - 02:12 AM.

[unregistered_user]

I'm hoping we can get the thread focused on PRL-8-53 again.

The discussion seems to have veered a bit and is less meaningful when PRL-8-53 is mentioned in stacks that include over 10 other supplements/medications. Since this is a new and relatively untested compound, hearing about user experiences that aren't confounded by over a half-dozen other variables is much more useful to the exploration of this substance than hearing about it as 1 factor in a host of other supplements/medications.

[boythatssomebreath]

10 mg of Noopept + 10 mg of PRL-8-53 = severe brain fog.

[gnappi]

My PRL-8-53 has not arrived yet but I'm planning on testing it (5mg) alone, with hordenine (100-200mg) and with sunifiran (5mg). What do you think? There will be synergism or antagonism in terms of increasing my memory?