33 replies to this topic

[niner]

What's the minimum effective daily dose of C60? How long does a given amount of C60 last? To answer those questions, we need metrics or markers of its activity. Ideally, we would have quantitative levels of clinical parameters like the Genova oxidative stress panel. Such tests are expensive however, and it would also be nice to have some more accessible parameters. One thing that might work is the amount of reps at constant weight we can get in a trained muscle before muscle fatigue sets in. I had been at a fairly long term plateau on a particular exercise, consistently failing on the 8th rep of the second set. (ten reps in first set). I took 1.5mg/day for 4 days, then stopped taking C60-oo. On the first day after the last dose, I finally made it into the gym, and blew past my previous record. I stopped at 12 reps, but could have done more. On the 4th day, I did 14 reps, and still could have done more. (I'm trying not to injure myself) My plan is to not take any more C60 until I get back to some semblance of baseline.

Had I run this experiment more thoughtfully, I would have taken a single dose of a smaller amount, then followed the effects. At the time, I wasn't sure what I'd see. Assuming I get back to something like baseline, that's what I'll do.

I've counted 11 reports of enhanced weight lifting performance, from doses ranging from 1.5mg to 130mg. There seems to be no relationship between dose and response, suggesting that either this is all placebo effect or that the minimum effective dose is 1.5mg or less. I have to say, I lean toward the latter, based on everything I've heard, my own experience, and what's in the literature. I recall the Ukrainian Hydrated Fullerene people saying that appropriate doses were very low- they're selling it in microgram per ml concentrations. It might be the case that the minimum daily dose of C60-oo is in fact in the low microgram range. It's almost certainly less than a milligram.

The question of how long C60 lasts should be directly related to the minimum daily dose, by definition: The MDD should last one day. The most likely situation is first order kinetics, so twice the MDD would last two days, three times the MDD would last three days, etc. But this remains to be demonstrated. It may well be the case that in the vicinity of the MDD, a dose-response relationship would show up, as well. In other words, there may be a dose that gets you one or two extra reps, while a larger dose gets you more reps. At some point, there will be a different muscle fatigue mode that is insensitive to further increases in dose.

What is going on, physiologically, with this putative muscle fatigue marker? The following paper suggests that ROS are involved:

J Appl Physiol. 2008 Mar;104(3):853-60. Epub 2007 Nov 15.
Muscle-derived ROS and thiol regulation in muscle fatigue.
Ferreira LF, Reid MB.

Department of Physiology, University of Kentucky, 800 Rose St., Lexington, KY 40536-0298, USA.

Muscles produce oxidants, including reactive oxygen species (ROS) and reactive nitrogen species (RNS), from a variety of intracellular sources. Oxidants are detectable in muscle at low levels during rest and at higher levels during contractions. RNS depress force production but do not appear to cause fatigue of healthy muscle. In contrast, muscle-derived ROS contribute to fatigue because loss of function can be delayed by ROS-specific antioxidants. Thiol regulation appears to be important in this biology. Fatigue causes oxidation of glutathione, a thiol antioxidant in muscle fibers, and is reversed by thiol-specific reducing agents. N-acetylcysteine (NAC), a drug that supports glutathione synthesis, has been shown to lessen oxidation of cellular constituents and delay muscle fatigue. In humans, NAC pretreatment improves performance of limb and respiratory muscles during fatigue protocols and extends time to task failure during volitional exercise. These findings highlight the importance of ROS and thiol chemistry in fatigue, show the feasibility of thiol-based countermeasures, and identify new directions for mechanistic and translational research.

PMID: 18006866 Free full text

Some questions for C60 users:

Does anyone have any other ideas for markers that we could use to probe the questions of minimum dose and duration of action?

Has anyone stopped taking C60 to look at the length of duration? Newton Pulsifer found that two months after discontinuing, a 40% increase in reps had faded to a 20% increase. His dose was 12mg/d for 2w, then 12mg twice a week for 2w before stopping. Lister mentioned effects fading a week after 1.5mg/d for some amount of time.

[maxwatt]

For cyclists, time over a measured course, especially one that is uphill, could be one such marker.

Resveratrol brought about no immediate improvement in those cyclists who reported in the resveratrol sub-forum, though endurance was noted to increase within three months and to remain higher than expected at a given volume of training, suggesting an improvement in oxygen utilization. I would expect C60-OO to have a more immediate effect on performance times, especially with an uphill course, as an effect seems to be on strength rather than endurance. (I believe the two complement each other, but that's another story.0

Despite recently having little time to train properly (business travel), I've found the strength components of my cycling workouts to be improved. Endurance does not seem to be off despite significant de-training; however breathing is more labored than it would be if I were spending more time training. Overall speed on a rolling course (12 to 15 miles, depending on which of two routes, and 3% average grade) is about the same or slightly faster than when well-trained before taking C60.

For those who are not into bicycles, I suggest stair climbing; even one story, if repeated several times ... we can't all live in high rise buildings but most of us hae access to stairs... would provide a baseline indicator. Time yourself for the equivalent of 6 to 10 stories (including descending time if in low-rise building). Repeat several times over the course of a week, or until one's time plateaus. It helps if one is reasonably conditioned to start with to avoid a confounding training effect. Then commence C60 and continue to record results.

[Hebbeh]

I've taken a few random breaks and noticed the fitness improvements start to fade but I believe that even with breaks, as long as you continue to work out, that you won't slide all the way back to baseline. Just like with performance enhancing drugs, some of the improvements should become permanent even after ceasing the PED as long as you keep pushing yourself. It should be like 2 steps forward and 1 back with each break....as long as you keep working to maintain the gains.

Edited by Hebbeh, 08 October 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Has anyone stopped taking C60 to look at the length of duration? Newton Pulsifer found that two months after discontinuing, a 40% increase in reps had faded to a 20% increase. His dose was 12mg/d for 2w, then 12mg twice a week for 2w before stopping. Lister mentioned effects fading a week after 1.5mg/d for some amount of time.

The longest I stopped was 2 weeks and noticed no drop off. I stopped giving it to my dogs nearly three months ago and the effect has not diminished. One dog had been unable to jump into the car without assistance or to get to the top of the dog tower in their pen (which has several jumps). This was reversed by a few doses of a few mg mixed in his food. The only fading I've noticed was when I took it initially for ten days, and after 5 days the improvements seemed to reverse. Thus I don't take it continuously but only once a week. And perhaps once a month might be better.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 08 October 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Logic]

Perhaps something to consider for the rat experiments?

[niner]

Perhaps something to consider for the rat experiments?

You mean using the rats to figure out the minimum dose or long term kinetics? That would probably be hard without blood tests of some kind. Or do you mean making use of these ideas in designing a dosing strategy? The one thing I would do different from Baati is that I would spread out the doses over a longer period of time, instead of having it so heavily front-loaded.

I went to the gym again today, and the maximum number of reps I could get was 12. Previously I did 12 and 14 at 1 and 4 days post dose, but in both cases, felt like I could do more. So it looks like I'm seeing a fading of effects now. Today was 7 days post. The total dose was 6mg over 4 days; 1.5mg/d. The next test will be wednesday, 9 days post.

[stephen_b]

I would expect C60-OO to have a more immediate effect on performance times, especially with an uphill course, as an effect seems to be on strength rather than endurance. (I believe the two complement each other, but that's another story.0

I just ran the Chicago marathon on Sunday. The conditions were great, and I set a 13 minute PR.

Split min/mile
05K 09:27
10K 09:19
15K 09:12
20K 09:10
HALF 09:20
25K 09:08
30K 09:03
35K 09:05
40K 09:00
Finish 08:05

I've been taking about 1.5 mg/day of C60 during the last couple of months. The endurance results I feel I can mostly attribute to training. There is definitely a strength component to the race though, especially at the finish, seen with my running the last 2 kilometers at an 8:05 pace (and the last mile at 7:44, which had a hill in it). I ran the last 4 miles at 92% of my max heart rate, which seems like more strength than endurance.

[niner]

I would expect C60-OO to have a more immediate effect on performance times, especially with an uphill course, as an effect seems to be on strength rather than endurance. (I believe the two complement each other, but that's another story.0

I've been taking about 1.5 mg/day of C60 during the last couple of months. The endurance results I feel I can mostly attribute to training. There is definitely a strength component to the race though, especially at the finish, seen with my running the last 2 kilometers at an 8:05 pace (and the last mile at 7:44, which had a hill in it). I ran the last 4 miles at 92% of my max heart rate, which seems like more strength than endurance.

stephen, you had mentioned what sounded like an allergic reaction to C60-oo early on. Did that eventually blow over, or did you attribute it to something else? It sounds like it's no longer a problem.

My own experience with strength vs endurance is entirely on the endurance side. When I went to the gym after C60, my first thought was "wow, I sure don't feel any stronger". If anything, I felt weaker. However, when I got to the point where my muscles always gave out in the past, I could just keep on going. I think maybe the experience is different on the aerobic side- more subtle, perhaps? The difference when you are working a trained muscle to exhaustion really hits you in the face. It's like night and day.

[stephen_b]

Hey niner. I attribute the allergic reaction to ubiquinol. For me, C60 without ubiquinol hasn't been a problem.

I wonder if we are using strength and endurance in the same way. For me I like to run the first part of a race just under my maximum sustainable pace for the distance. The kick at the end I attribute to strength. It might last 25 minutes long with a final, largely anaerobic kick about 6 minutes long.

[niner]

I wonder if we are using strength and endurance in the same way. For me I like to run the first part of a race just under my maximum sustainable pace for the distance. The kick at the end I attribute to strength. It might last 25 minutes long with a final, largely anaerobic kick about 6 minutes long.

You know, I think I'm using the wrong term. I should be talking about onset of muscle fatigue, the point at which you can not make the muscle do another rep. I think this is distinct from strength, in that strength would depend on the amount of hypertrophic muscle tissue you have, among other things. The usual measure of strength would be the maximum weight you could lift in a single rep. It would also be distinct from aerobic endurance, which would involve cardiopulmonary function, among other things.

[FunkOdyssey]

You know, I think I'm using the wrong term. I should be talking about onset of muscle fatigue, the point at which you can not make the muscle do another rep. I think this is distinct from strength, in that strength would depend on the amount of hypertrophic muscle tissue you have, among other things. The usual measure of strength would be the maximum weight you could lift in a single rep. It would also be distinct from aerobic endurance, which would involve cardiopulmonary function, among other things.

The number of reps you can perform at a given weight is generally a function of strength. You can, with some reliability, estimate your 1-rep max based upon the number of reps performed with a smaller weight. You can find calculators at various weight-training sites.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 October 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[stephen_b]

There are studies like this one which divide well trained runners into a control group and one that did 4 sets of 4 half-squats 3x a week. The result: 'While V02 max and body weight remained constant, the strength training group’s time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic speed improved by an impressive 21.3 percent'. If that is a typical benefit of strength training on running performance, then I may have received some of the benefits of strength training by taking C60.

Edited by stephen_b, 10 October 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[mpe]

Don't forget, effective doses are weight specific, what works for a person weighing 70kg wll not work if you weigh 120 kg.

[niner]

Don't forget, effective doses are weight specific, what works for a person weighing 70kg wll not work if you weigh 120 kg.

Yeah, that's a good point. I really need to convert everything to mg/kg.

[Junk Master]

Just have to add there's something else going on here. I have both a weightlifting and endurance background so am familiar with both types of muscular strength/endurance. What I experienced was an IMMEDIATE increase in muscular endurance from 19-23, then 25 reps, but no real increase in LT threshold, Vo2 max, or single rep max.

[niner]

Just have to add there's something else going on here. I have both a weightlifting and endurance background so am familiar with both types of muscular strength/endurance. What I experienced was an IMMEDIATE increase in muscular endurance from 19-23, then 25 reps, but no real increase in LT threshold, Vo2 max, or single rep max.

This is the same thing that I've experienced. The one thing that really changes is a large immediate increase in muscular endurance, and everything else is the same. The only thing I've really measured was reps, but I certainly didn't feel stronger.

[niner]

I've been running my muscle fatigue experiment for almost two weeks now, so I'm going to present the data. I took 1.5mg of Carbon's c60-oo each morning for 4 days, from Sep 29 to Oct 2. The first post-dose lifting was on Oct 3.
 Muscle Fatigue.png   18.58KB   93 downloads

This experiment is a little messy because it was unplanned at first. It would have been better to take a single dose instead of spreading it over 4 days. The zero of the x-axis corresponds to the second day of dosing. The pre-dose data points of 8 reps have been consistent for a long time. Adding to the messiness, the first two data points post-dose are estimates. I was concerned about injuring myself, which a couple people here have done from lifting too much. I actually stopped at 12 reps on the 3rd, but based on how easy it was, I felt like I could have done 20. On the 6th, I actually did 14 reps, but felt like I could have done a lot more. I estimated these two points as 16, somewhat arbitrarily. On all subsequent days, the data points are the maximum number of reps I could do.

In total, the 6mg dose is 0.093mg/kg for my body weight. As far as picking the point at which the C60 has fallen below an important threshold, I would place it on or around the 7th day. The first week I felt good. In the second week, while my performance on the muscle fatigue measure was slowly deteriorating, I felt lousy. There were a lot of little things that I might have brushed off had they occurred in isolation, but here's a list.

Inflammation in ear and nose
Eczema got worse than normal. Had been better than normal in first week.
Two small inflamed skin lesions that were kind of odd
Tiredness
Minor knee injury from leg press
Biceps tendinitis flareup
Lower back injury from lifting while in an awkward position (light weight, getting something out of a drawer)

Maybe this was all coincidental, but could it be C60 withdrawal? Our endogenous antioxidant defenses get upregulated and downregulated pretty easily. One of the measures of oxidative stress is a high level of SOD activity, which might seem counter-intuitive. Could they have been strongly downregulated, and be taking their sweet time about getting back up to speed? I don't know. I do know that I feel like I've been falling apart the last few days. I was planning on doing a series of experiments using single bolus doses of various sizes, but now I'm not sure if I want to sacrifice myself on the altar of science. I'm tempted to take a hit off the red bottle...

For now, I'll make a simplistic estimate of the minimum daily dose as 0.093/7 = 0.0133mg/kg. For a 70kg person, that would be a dose of 0.93mg. I think this might be a bit of an overestimate; I'm not really sure how to treat this mathematically.

Edited by niner, 16 October 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[Hebbeh]

I noticed during my breaks that I felt more tired than usual also, especially in the evenings...and had unusual difficulty getting motivated for my evening workouts. I started back up 3 days ago at 2.5 mg and was back in the groove tonight with the best workout since the last break...both in motivation, mental focus, and performance. I definitely feel the rebound fatigue during breaks...and it's not enjoyable.

Edited by Hebbeh, 16 October 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[stephen_b]

Hey niner. I attribute the allergic reaction to ubiquinol. For me, C60 without ubiquinol hasn't been a problem.

I wonder if we are using strength and endurance in the same way. For me I like to run the first part of a race just under my maximum sustainable pace for the distance. The kick at the end I attribute to strength. It might last 25 minutes long with a final, largely anaerobic kick about 6 minutes long.

I'm going to have to reverse myself again on this one. Sorry about that. Hives again, no ubiquinol but C60. This has happened with both brands of C60.

[Turnbuckle]

I'm going to have to reverse myself again on this one. Sorry about that. Hives again, no ubiquinol but C60. This has happened with both brands of C60.

Yours is not the first case of a skin reaction. I've given C60 to 2 unrelated dogs and they both ended up with itchy skin, one much more so than the other. I'm still battling the problem, which has persisted in one dog for about 3 months after just a few doses. Needless to say I won't be giving it to them again.

[stephen_b]

Two small inflamed skin lesions that were kind of odd

niner, sounds like you might be getting a bit of the same. For me, I get several inflamed, raised regions of the skin, maybe nickel size. I've also gotten patches that are closer to almost palm size. I get them around my waistband area, biceps, neck, and armpits.

Edited by stephen_b, 16 October 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

It might be the case that the minimum daily dose of C60-oo is in fact in the low microgram range. It's almost certainly less than a milligram.

This is a real possibility.

[niner]

Two small inflamed skin lesions that were kind of odd

niner, sounds like you might be getting a bit of the same. For me, I get several inflamed, raised regions of the skin, maybe nickel size. I've also gotten patches that are closer to almost palm size. I get them around my waistband area, biceps, neck, and armpits.

The things that I had were even smaller. One was about an eight of an inch in diameter, and the other was maybe 5/16". They weren't like the usual things, but they didn't at all act like or look like an allergic reaction. The one on my face looked more like an abrasion, except it wasn't that. Continuing in the inflammatory vein, I have a couple small keratoses on my face, and normally they are almost invisible, but they've flared up this week too. I'd sure be interested in seeing a series of blood tests measuring redox parameters over the course of this experiment. I think I'm going to head down to the kitchen and have a milligram of C60-oo. That sounds like it would hit the spot.

[Hebbeh]

Sounds as if some are experiencing over active immune responses?

On that note....just about everybody I work around has been sick with a really nasty upper respiratory bug the last 2 or 3 weeks. A couple of people that never miss work, missed a couple days and were still really sick when they came back. I seem to be the only one that didn't catch it. I felt stuffy and tired for a day and thought I might come down with it but never did.

Edited by Hebbeh, 17 October 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[TSX TypeR]

 

 

Two small inflamed skin lesions that were kind of odd

niner, sounds like you might be getting a bit of the same. For me, I get several inflamed, raised regions of the skin, maybe nickel size. I've also gotten patches that are closer to almost palm size. I get them around my waistband area, biceps, neck, and armpits.

 

The things that I had were even smaller. One was about an eight of an inch in diameter, and the other was maybe 5/16". They weren't like the usual things, but they didn't at all act like or look like an allergic reaction. The one on my face looked more like an abrasion, except it wasn't that. Continuing in the inflammatory vein, I have a couple small keratoses on my face, and normally they are almost invisible, but they've flared up this week too. I'd sure be interested in seeing a series of blood tests measuring redox parameters over the course of this experiment. I think I'm going to head down to the kitchen and have a milligram of C60-oo. That sounds like it would hit the spot.

 

 

niner and stephen_b, have you guys figured out what was causing these reactions to C60?

 

[stephen_b]

niner and stephen_b, have you guys figured out what was causing these reactions to C60?

 

I haven't had it recur, so no idea.

[niner]

niner and stephen_b, have you guys figured out what was causing these reactions to C60?

 

I think that most of them were just coincidences.  I get little injuries and booboos all the time... At this point, with much more c60oo experience under my belt, I don't think there are any notable discontinuation reactions.  What I do think you will notice upon discontinuation is that eventually, whatever good effects you were getting from it will fade.  Not all effects have the same dose threshold- I find that the first thing to go in my case is the anti-eczema effect.  The anti-muscle fatigue effect dropped off relatively quickly as well.  The effects that I attribute to improved mitochondrial efficiency seem to last the longest by far.  These would be things like improved endurance and greater resistance to hypoxic conditions, like postural hypotension, for example.

 

It's hard to be precise about the minimum daily dose, because it will vary from person to person based on their body weight and metabolism, and also varies depending on the effect you are interested in.  For me, the minimum daily dose is certainly less than a milligram.  Two things are clear:  It is a very potent compound, active at microgram levels, and it has an extremely long half life.  My last dose was 24 mg, five weeks ago.  The anti-eczema effect started dropping off in the past week, but other effects are still there.  My normal dosing schedule is once per month.
 

[shp5]

this is going to be strange, but did anyone notice a change in the smell of your urine after eating asparagus? I hardly seem to notice it anymore, either my sense of smell has changed or rather the typical asparagus smell has been greatly reduced.  (I report this after taking my first of weekly 5mg doses and had asparagus two times since).

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....ffects_on_urine

Edited by shp5, 11 May 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Rare]

 

I'm going to have to reverse myself again on this one. Sorry about that. Hives again, no ubiquinol but C60. This has happened with both brands of C60.

Yours is not the first case of a skin reaction. I've given C60 to 2 unrelated dogs and they both ended up with itchy skin, one much more so than the other. I'm still battling the problem, which has persisted in one dog for about 3 months after just a few doses. Needless to say I won't be giving it to them again.

 

Hi Turnbuckle,

 

I work with dogs and wonder if the skin conditions ever got better on your dogs. 

 

I want to give C60 to my dog and your experience worries me a little.

 

I have helped a few dogs get rid of itchy skin conditions, including mange, by feeding raw food and particularly by making sure none of the meat has never been frozen.

 

Here is an article I wrote about feeding raw food to dogs. http://www.ronitcorr...dogs-an-article

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

I'm going to have to reverse myself again on this one. Sorry about that. Hives again, no ubiquinol but C60. This has happened with both brands of C60.

Yours is not the first case of a skin reaction. I've given C60 to 2 unrelated dogs and they both ended up with itchy skin, one much more so than the other. I'm still battling the problem, which has persisted in one dog for about 3 months after just a few doses. Needless to say I won't be giving it to them again.

 

Hi Turnbuckle,

 

I work with dogs and wonder if the skin conditions ever got better on your dogs. 

 

I want to give C60 to my dog and your experience worries me a little.

 

I have helped a few dogs get rid of itchy skin conditions, including mange, by feeding raw food and particularly by making sure none of the meat has never been frozen.

 

Here is an article I wrote about feeding raw food to dogs. http://www.ronitcorr...dogs-an-article

 

 

The skin reaction was from something else, not from C60. I noted no C60 age reversal with one dog, but quite a bit with the other. The effect lasted about a year and a half before fading, and subsequent doses provided no improvement.