14 replies to this topic

[ta5]

I'm wondering about mineral amino acid chelates and what effect I can expect from the amino acid part.

Magnesium Glycinate, for example, is Magnesium reacted with Glycine. Does the Glycine become detached from the Magnesium and act like straight Glycine in the body somewhere? Basically, am I getting Glycine or not?

Or, does the amino acid not count? If so, is that because they don't become detached?

Obviously, I'm puzzled and clueless about this. I always assumed I was getting Glycine, but now I've read some things that maybe it doesn't work that way.

A popular Magnesium glycinate/lysinate supplement brags that lysine is good for cartilage and connective tissue, and Glycine assists gastric function. Which implies that you're getting those benefits. But, are you?

Thanks.

[niner]

Technically, you should ultimately get most of the amino acid from the chelate, unless it passes through you without ever dissociating, which would certainly be a fail. A bigger question is: is a gram of glycine (or less) going to make a difference in your health or experience? Not likely.

[ta5]

Thanks niner.

I'm not interested in glycine. That was just an example.

[ta5]

I would like to find some references. Googling 'mineral chelate dissociation' produces some related hits. I found articles saying that AACs may not dissociate in the stomach or intestine. But, I haven't found anything saying where they will dissociate.

Would that happen in the blood or somewhere else? Is there another term I can search for that would describe how or where the mineral would separate from the amino acid?

Thanks.

[ta5]

I asked LEF if if I take Magnesium Glycinate, will I be getting Glycine? And, if I take Glycine separately, should I add the Glycine from Magnesium Glycine to know my total Glycine intake? This was their reply:

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

We understand your concern.

Chelated minerals have demonstrated superior absorption to non-chelated forms. A chelated mineral is one bound to an amino acid or organic compound. These do not disassociate in the digestive system. In the case of magnesium glycinate, glycine is the carrier transporter for magnesium. Therefore, you will not be obtaining a significant amount of the amino acid glycine. If you want to know your total glycine intake, then you do not need to add the glycine from the magnesium glycinate. The following are links discussing chelated minerals:

http://www.livestron...ce=undefined_R1

http://www.livestron...ce=undefined_R1

If you have any additional questions, please e-mail us or call the advisor helpline at (800) 226-2370; international customers dial 001-954-202-7660. We will be glad to assist you.

Visit Life Extension on the web: www.lef.org

I'm surprised. I thought I could add them together, but apparently not.

[protoject]

This is an interesting topic. Have you tried taking a chelated supplement and then seeing if you get the effect of the amino acid that is transporting the other molecule? Crude method I know, but an interesting experiment. I don't have any reason to believe it dissociates, just curious.

[niner]

If the magnesium never dissociates from the chelator, then it will never be available to do the things that magnesium is supposed to do, like bind to or otherwise engage with some 300-odd enzymes, or interact with nucleic acids. These things all require the free magnesium ion, not a chelate. It has to eventually dissociate. I think LEF is just wrong about that.

[ta5]

This is an interesting topic. Have you tried taking a chelated supplement and then seeing if you get the effect of the amino acid that is transporting the other molecule? Crude method I know, but an interesting experiment. I don't have any reason to believe it dissociates, just curious.

I'm doing this experiment now. More than 3 grams or so of Taurine daily gives me an itchy rash. I have been taking 1 gram of Taurine for years without any rash. Now I'm continuing to take 1 gram of plain Taurine and I have slowly increased to 400mg Magnesium as Magnesium Taurate. I think this should be up to 4 grams of Taurine from the Magnesium Taurate, so 5 grams total Taurine if it all dissociated. I have not had a rash yet. It's maybe too soon to tell, but I would expect 5 grams of Taurine daily to give me a rash.

I looked around and could find no strong evidence that an AAC mineral provides the amino acid. Swanson said the same thing. I asked a couple AAC manufactures and they ignored me. I argued more with LEF and Swanson than I posted here, and they insist I should not count the amino acid in my total dose.

The only reference to AACs possibly supplying their amino acid that I could find, are these studies:

"Increased tissue levels of taurine, as well as increased extracellular magnesium, could be expected to dampen neuronal hyperexcitation, counteract vasospasm, increase tolerance to focal hypoxia and stabilize platelets; taurine may also lessen sympathetic outflow. Thus it is reasonable to speculate that supplemental magnesium taurate will have preventive value in the treatment..."
http://pmid.us/8961243

"...taurine lowers elevated blood pressure, retards cholesterol-induced atherogenesis, prevents arrhythmias and stabilizes platelets--effects parallel to those of magnesium. The complex magnesium taurate may thus have considerable potential..."
http://pmid.us/8692051

"...taurine has antivasospastic, antihypertensive, platelet-stabilizing, anticonvulsant and hypoxia-protective properties. Thus parenteral magnesium taurate can reasonably be proposed as a superior alternative…"
http://pmid.us/8910874

A couple product descriptions say things like:
"This product combines magnesium with the amino acid taurine, both of which benefit the heart."

I pointed this out to LEF, and they responded:

After extensive research...we could not find research stating that it separates anywhere else in the body.

I told them that I get a rash from too much Taurine, and they responded:

We would suggest using 1 gram of taurine since that amount has not caused a rash. You could add in the magnesium taurate, as it is highly unlikely that you would receive a rash from adding this product into your regimen, since only a small amount of taurine will be provided from the magnesium taurate product.

So much of what LEF wrote seemed contradicting. I think they really don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. If I get a rash, I will be convinced it does dissociate somewhere in the body. How much and where it dissociates would still be a question. If I never get a rash, it either doesn't dissociate or doesn't supply the free amino acid in the same way as taking it separately as far as my skin is concerned.

[dear mrclock]

why ask LEF this ? they are business company. you should probably contact some serious researchers. get some infos from ncbi on people who have done past experiments with any of the substance of interest and email them the questions you posted here.

[ta5]

why ask LEF this ? they are business company. you should probably contact some serious researchers. get some infos from ncbi on people who have done past experiments with any of the substance of interest and email them the questions you posted here.

That's a good idea. Initially, I didn't think it was such a hard question. I was simply asking different retailers and manufactures how much of the amino acid was present in their particular mineral AACs because it's not listed on the supplement facts. I thought it was odd. I expected they would know and would simply tell me it has X amount of the amino acid. That started the conversation. In many cases, they don't even know exactly how much is in it. Then, I was surprised when they claimed it didn't matter.

[dear mrclock]

it quite obviously seems to be a hard question. i would suggest you upgrade. asking a company that buys bunch of substances from various manufactures then distributing them widely with more of the price in comparison only to make a profit doesnt seem like the best idea to have a really valid answer to a question relating the chemistry of the highlighted substance. i mean, im not even sure if actual researches on this substance have all the ideas relating it, but its much much better chance you get some idea than the distributors of it with only one thing in mind, monetary gain.

[protoject]

yeah it doesnt make sense that it doesnt dissociate. I think what they are trying to tell you is that it effectively goes through the gastrointestinal system and then the carrier molecule brings it elsewhere to drop off the supplement molecule. But honestly it doesnt really seemt o make sense that it wouldnt dissociate. It is being metabolized in your body and the active molecule is released. Its not like some super molecule MagnesiumGlycinate is a whole new drug. one just acts as a carrier for the other.

[ta5]

it quite obviously seems to be a hard question. i would suggest you upgrade. asking a company that buys bunch of substances from various manufactures then distributing them widely with more of the price in comparison only to make a profit doesnt seem like the best idea to have a really valid answer to a question relating the chemistry of the highlighted substance. i mean, im not even sure if actual researches on this substance have all the ideas relating it, but its much much better chance you get some idea than the distributors of it with only one thing in mind, monetary gain.

It wasn't obvious to me. In fact, I thought it was obvious that I would be getting the amino acid and it would count toward my total dose. Initially I asked these manufactures and retailers how much of the amino acid their products contained. Manufactures are the only ones that know what their products contain. I was surprised by the claims they came back with, and it's turned into the question we have now. Now it's obviously a hard question, I agree, especially since no one here has yet been able to refute the claims or explain how or where it dissociates.

[niner]

You can calculate how much taurine is there if you know the ratio of Mg to taurine. If, for example, the compound has two taurines for each Mg, which would give a net charge of zero without any other counterions, then for 400 mg Mg, the calculation would go like this:

0.400 gm Mg * (mol Mg/24.305 gm Mg) * (2 mol taur/1 mol Mg) * (125.15 gm taur/ mol taur) = 4.12 gm taurine.

[ta5]

It also depends on the water content and how much of it is reacted. Some are fully reacted and some are not. Water content is apparently quite unknown. It really needs to be analyzed. But, it doesn't matter anyway since my body can't use it. :-)