188 replies to this topic

[Luminosity]

These are really popular topics on this site with young males. Periodically someone posts a thread looking for a magic pill for this and it gets lots of posts.

I'm a fifty year old female so I know the woman's perspective. I also have a half-century of life experience.

Confidence and self-esteem don't come from a pill.

Males used to have to pursue females. There were no other options. If you did not have a date to the prom in the fifties or whatever it was unacceptable. If you didn't get engaged and married, you would be talked about, you would likely not have sex and you probably would have a hard time with your career. So males pursued females. They also had stronger sex drives then. There was little pornography. Prostitution and strip clubs weren't mainstream or widely available. Older females stage managed people's love lives, for instance teaching young people to ballroom dance. It took everything a male had to get and keep a female. He had to show up well groomed, maybe with a present and make a positive impression on the parents. He had to pay for everything. He had to open doors. He had to commit to get sex. I honestly think this worked better than what came after. There was plenty of encouragement to pursue females and basically no way not to. I think this worked.

I was born in the early sixties. Males my age still eagerly pursued females. Their sex drives were higher than males now. Pornography was not widespread. Prostitution and strip clubs were not common and were not embraced by younger people. The sexual revolution was in progress. Presented with too many options, males began behaving less well but most people still formed relationships. Males wanted actual girlfriends, not pornography.

Every graduating class after mine had fewer two parent homes and fewer stay at home moms. That changed things. A lot of problems seem to stem from that. The continuity and attention in a two parent home with a stay at home parent seem to be what children need to develop properly. Kids were now being raised by the media or the internet. Pornography, strip clubs, rap videos, etc. became a problem. No one needs to leave their home or commit to another human being to have a (fake) sexual experience. More males than ever before seem to be spending a lot of their lives without dates, girlfriends, or sex, etc. They don't even try. They pretend that getting rejected would be the end of the world. There isn't the support or structure for trying to ask girls out. There aren't the kind of social consequences males suffered in the fifties if they didn't have a wife or girlfriend. When males do seem to get a female's attention they often say sexually inappropriate things and ruin their chances.

Asking females out requires practice. It requires courage. It requires participation. It requires a tolerance for risk. You could develop all of these things. You should also try to be respectful of females and learn to say the right things to them. Learn how to date. Learn how to be a good boyfriend. In the fifties, 99% of males asked women out and dated. Almost all of them married. It was a lot harder for them that it would be for you, but they did it. You can too.

If you need therapy for emotional issues, get it. Otherwise, get out there and try to makes things happen. If you get rejected, it hurts but it won't kill you. The difference between males that have girlfriends and you, 100% of the time, is that they asked girls out.

Edited by Luminosity, 14 November 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[jeancludd]

Hi!

Some good points here! While I certainly agree that the magic pill doesn't exist, it is not so weird for humans to want it. After all we strive for minimum effort/maximum reward in most things. Just like some people who are fat expect to lose fat by taking pills while not working out and still eating the same old crappy junk food they always have. It gets easier if you just accept that some things take time and serious effort to achieve.

I also think that the "dating/chasing girls-problem" you describe is more complex than you think. For example: the whole concept of a date is completely different now. What is a date? People get their expectations from movies and think that it's an accurate version of real life. You talk about "social consequences", they change all the time. The ideal life, what society think it's important to have in life, changes all the time. Polygamy could be the norm in two hundred years for all we know, and then you would face "social consequences" if you tried to have a "normal" relationship.

Also, to put it bluntly, there's "more" to life in this day and age, people aren't satisfied with picking up their fathers' trade and marry at 18.

You make it sound like it's only the men who have changed (for the worse), but rest assured; the women have changed as well. How different do you think the standard response by a woman getting approached by a man is now compared to fifty years ago? There's also no reason to believe it was harder for men in the 50s, you even said that they had no other choice - now we have choice.

But yeah, it's a skill... and just like at every other skill, you have to fail A LOT before you get good...

Atleast there's dating sites ;D

[stablemind]

While I agree for the most part, this applies to those with a normal brain chemistry where practice increases reward, which increases confidence naturally. Being anhedonic or anything of this nature is a completely different story. The reward just isn't there, which makes it very difficult to accomplish a goal. In the latter case, a pill (or a cocktail :P) would be required. I do have to thank science for reducing my hyperactive adrenergic system which otherwise would be constantly stimulated 247 in every situation making it impossible to communicate with anyone.

[Luminosity]

Thanks for your responses. I'm aware of what is going on with younger people in terms of not going on that many "dates." A lot of "dating" activity is less than that and always has been, but if a male over eighteen is really interested in a female he will ask her out to dinner somewhere nice and pay for it. If not, watch his intentions.

[Raptor87]

I don*t understand what this post is about. Is it about dating or low esteem, confidence and how to attain it? Could you please be more specific.

[nupi]

[frequent readers will know that Luminosity and I have pretty much opposing views on how to treat mental issues, she is in the therapy camp, I consider therapy to be an elaborate way of telling people to just get over it - at an hourly rate not quite as bad as my own]

While the part about it being a numbers game and that rejection will not (in general, anyway [1]) kill you is objectively true, I would caution every guy to ever take dating and relationship advice from women (for the various reasons that are explained in great detail on the relevant blogs). For starters, you should never pay for dinner (unless maybe she is a student and you make lots of cash but even there I would be very cautious, otherwise, NFW - they wanted equality, they shall have it). In fact, just forget about the idea of dinner for first date, full stop. The setup is all wrong (HTF are you supposed to touch someone sitting on the other side of the table?) and the logistics usually horrible. Heck a cinema is a better place for a date (and that is about as bad a date as can be in my view). Make it breakfast the next morning if you have to have food...

Aside of that, for some of us, even the best game blog advice does not really work. For some people approach anxiety is so bad that they will fall over shitfaced before they will ever approach a girl. This is a small minority and unfortunately, nobody ever takes us serious ("just get over it" seems the standard answer even from shrinks, on a better day you might also get an SSRI or some benzos). However, for this small minority, various pharmaceuticals might help - and they may not necessarily be the same for all of us. SSRIs might help with the anxiety and likely depression from the state of affairs (but the ED/anorgasmia kind of rains on the parade for many), Betablockers can help with the physical symptoms of anxiety (but again can lower stamina) whereas dopaminergics are not really sustainable but are thought to actually increase confidence (as is pretty obvious when watching people on cocaine...).

[1] In two occasions, it almost did for me. But then again it's hard to say where the crush ends and the OCD starts...

Edited by nupi, 22 November 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[nupi]

I am not sure I would say I had it bad - there were bad (sometimes extremely so) times but ultimately I am not in such a bad situation (I have a two very valuable masters, a highly coveted job with an income significantly above the average of my peer group, I have decent looks, am in not too bad - although it certainly could be better - shape and while I suck at the romantic side of life, I managed to have a multi-year live-in relationship with my ex, at least)

My realizations? I would say conventional game advice is spot on, the times where I had not been all that interested I very naturally was the aloof guy game wants to project and it most certainly works (my ex still mentioned years into that relationship that it got to her I ignored her [1] one of the first days we had met and that it made her wonder). So definitely read the game stuff but try to stay away from the more misogynistic parts of it - most guys are jaded enough as they are, no need to get worse in that regard. Also, keep it to yourself, society overall largely is not ready to hear about it - it's about as un-pc as it gets (though one play interesting games if ultimately usually pretty fruitless by discussing game concepts with girls).

As for managing anxiety on dates, that usually has not been all that big an issue for me (on the few dates I actually was on, I never felt particularly anxious, even if things did not go all that well). I am not all that bad in a 1 on 1 setting - if I can get to it. If I had to come with a regime to treat anxiety on dates, I would probably recommend an SSRI (at least for me they move my mindset closer to outcome independence which is really what you need to have) with the qualification that you should really try and figure out how strong the sexual side effects are for you, otherwise a date that was going very well might get awkward very quickly. However, in my experience, SSRIs are not all the same and no two people respond to them in the exact same way (for example, Cymbalta, technically an SNRI, was worst on both ED and middle of the line on anorgasmia, Effexor mainly gave me mainly strong anorgasmia, Escitalopram lowers my sex drive the most and Prozac, ironically, so far has the least side effects of all).

Ultimately, I KNOW I need to find a way to get over my approach anxiety, first and foremost (its kind of obvious, too, that if you fail at the beginning of the funnel, all other skills are totally useless). For me, SSRI/SNRIs do precious little in that area (neither does alcohol, BTW) and I have yet to convince my shrink to let me dabble in dopaminergics (trying cocaine would definitely be easier and while I have in principle no issue with people doing it, I am seriously too afraid that I would like it way too much - it's nasty, highly addictive stuff and somewhat of a legal liability [2]). Additionally, in the medium term I will need to move to a job that actually leaves me time for meeting girls and going on dates...

Most of the remaining stuff I realized is somewhat specific to my personal situation. I have a relatively low sex drive overall (with some occasional spikes) which is both a boon and a bane. It's a boon because it makes the whole situation less painful but that equivalently means there is less chance that I go and fix the thing. It also ultimately is not celibacy that gets to me (if it did, prostitution is legal where I live - still I have about 0 interest in it) but lack of intimacy. What I will say as for general points: Lack of intimacy CAN be medicated away (at least in the medium term) but it's likely to eventually blow up in your face and most likely in a situation where you facing problems in other areas of life, too.

Additionally, there is a big topic about confidence in my own abilities plus something related to the way my brain operates. I am an off the chart T in MBTI and on the far right of the IQ scale, so I am usually very confident in intellectual pursuits but tend to be bad at emotional stuff - which dating and relationships ultimately are all about. I also have an intensely one track mind: I can do ONE thing and ONLY ONE thing at a time - it's so bad that I can sit in a conversation and listen to the content but totally miss body language or watch body language and totally miss the content (I have a feeling that I am on the spectrum but I can't be bothered to get tested, it's not like it can actually be treated anyhow)... Focused on the right task and in the right mood, the extreme single mindedness can yield astonishing results, focused on the wrong thing, it tends to generate chaos, obsessions and depression.

[1] In reality, I flat out had not seen her that day
[2] It's unlikely that one would get into serious trouble for personal consumption in Switzerland - fines, sure but prison is not really a big risk

Edited by nupi, 24 November 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[nupi]

As for dating advice: I would not even recommend to women to take advice from other women. In general its flat out wrong (in the good case, hilariously so, in the bad case, criminally and dangerously so). However the whole thing is easier for women - as long as they are young and attractive, anyway. Too bad most do not figure it out while they are....

[Galaxyshock]

What women say they want ≠ what they respond to

[Luminosity]

What did I say that isn't true and hasn't worked millions of times?

It's true that certain insecure men use certain tactics on haughty and/or insecure women with success some of the time. That isn't the only way to find a woman. No one told you to hang around like a love sick puppy and give her the key to your apartment on the second date either. And OCD is also a poor dating technique. Trying to learn some cheap manipulative tactics to try to seduce random females is not a good idea.

A man with lots of confidence can go right up to a woman and introduce himself and chat her up and get a date, and he doesn't have to try to denigrate her or ignore her to convince her he is worthy. For lesser mortals acting cool might work, if you can pull it off, but you also have to approach the woman and talk to her. I'm guessing that isn't happening. It's true that a younger females are surrounded by men who are not generous, or romantic or sincere but you don't HAVE to be that way. There's better ways to go.

[nupi]

I won't engage on the "game is cheap manipulation" straw man when there's so much obviously wrong with the post above.

A man with lots of confidence can go right up to a woman and introduce himself and chat her up and get a date, and he doesn't have to try to denigrate her or ignore her to convince her he is worth

I actually agree. But maybe I fail at basic logic, but how exactly are we talking about men with lots of confidence in this thread? Lack of confidence is one of the (if not THE) key issues that people were trying to achieve with nootropics/medication and you did take issue with that approach, no? So people without confidence are supposed to stay that way and suffer the consequences?

It's true that a younger females are surrounded by men who are not generous, or romantic or sincere but you don't HAVE to be that way. There's better ways to go.

Like what? Be the guy who takes her out to dinner and then does not get laid? Sounds like a pretty compelling proposition to me. And this conveniently ignores that it's not entirely clear how the dinner date would ever happen without the guy having enough confidence to ask the girl out...

Simply because conventional wisdom occasionally (after a lots of pain) works does not mean it is at all effective - sheer statistics dictate successes be in the millions. In fact, the data is overwhelmingly showing conventional dating wisdom to be ridiculously wrong. A lot of suffering could be avoided (arguably more male suffering but it most certainly would make the world a better place for women as well) if it was not.

[Luminosity]

Nupi, I still think you very much need to go to a therapist and work on your self-esteem issues. So much should not depend on cheap tactics, like sitting next to each other at a movie versus across a table. Every weekend I go out to restaurants and I see plenty of happy couples sitting across from each other. What are you doing then?

Almost without exception, when men denigrate or objectify women they lack confidence and self esteem. Making too much of a manipulative game out of dating is always a sign of a lack in that man. Yes, there can be tactics and maneuvers but it should be more like a dance than a con game.

There's never a guarantee that a date will go well. Getting overly complainy about that is a sign, usually, of a lack of confidence or Mommy issues. That's a chance you take. If you talk to someone for a while before you ask her out, you can screen out some people. It's an adventure. Yes, you would be out some money. Women risk more.

As a man is with his money so he is with his heart. Money is largely like a lie detector test in checking a man's priorities and sincerity. That's why it is legitimate to expect him to pay for dates. To see if he's for real. I have no apologies for this. I advise all women to take note of this.

Test yourself. Pretend you meet a woman and you have an average salary for a thirty year old man in an average town. If you would spend a hundred or two hundred dollars to take that woman out and make a good impression then you are really interested. If not, you are probably going to waste her time and or break her heart. Move on. Wait until you meet someone that makes you not care about that money.

From my history, I could have skipped all the men who didn't ask me out to a nice place for dinner on the first date. They were wastes of time.

Having been from a generation that threw out all the rules, I see that sex is best had inside a monogamous, long term committed relationship. Otherwise you could get a disease, an unplanned child, be heartbroken or deceived or get hooked up with a psychopath. From what you and similar males say on this site, you have so much trouble getting one woman, that seems like a lofty enough goal. I really don't support deploying a bunch of manipulative tactics in the hopes that some unwary female may fall into your trap and get used by you.

You have to ask yourself, am I a man or a human pot hole?

Treat others as you would be treated.

It's all about the confidence. Go to a professional and find out why there's such a hole there.

If I was a man, this is what I would do. I would talk to women, smile at them, and give them compliments. I would chat them up. I would flirt with them. I would ask them out. I would give them flowers. I would pay for all the dates as much as I could. If not all, I would try to do the first three and as many as possible after that.

If you can't go around chatting up women all day, do that when you need to.

If I was a man and had a girlfriend, I would give her three compliments every day. One would be that she was beautiful. One would be something specific about her looks, like a new dress or new hairstyle or whatever. One would have nothing do to with her looks. It would be something she did or a character trait. Each and every time she got a new item of clothing, hairstyle, or did something to improve her looks, I would compliment it.

I would give massages. Women love back rubs and foot massages. They love their necks kissed. If I was a man with a girlfriend I would bring her flowers every week.

I actually did ask men out repeatedly in the eighties and early nineties when we were told that was a workable thing. Some of them were extremely handsome men I did not know. I am not super-confident or perfect looking, but it did it. Some went out with me. I paid or tried to pay but many of them grabbed the check. It didn't eventually lead anywhere because that just doesn't work, but I'm not telling you to do anything I didn't do. I also asked hundreds of men to dance. That went better. I got to dance hundreds of times.

There were also other times when I was turned down by an entire group of men, one by one, in front of all my coworkers and had to slink across the dance floor in front of the entire club. I would still do it all again because I didn't have to waste any good songs.

Where is the resilience? Where is the drive? Go to a therapist and find it.

Edited by Luminosity, 12 December 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[nowayout]

If I was a man, this is what I would do. I would talk to women, smile at them, and give them compliments. I would chat them up. I would flirt with them. I would ask them out.

See, that's the rub, isn't it? I don't think all the rest that comes after this is difficult for most of us, just overcoming this initial obstacle.

I am also older than most of the posters here, and when I compare things now to how they were 15 years ago I honestly think it is more difficult for the younger generation of males to do what you advise, because the younger generation of females (or males if you are gay) do not know how to invite or respond to initial signals of interest or flirtation. Girls (and gay guys) used to know how to show interest by initiating or responding to eye contact, a smile, etc., social skills that are in large part now being lost due to the internet and other change that have taken place in socializing.

[nupi]

Three points
1) We'll just agree to disagree on the paying for dates part and it's not about the cash, I could easily afford even expensive dates.
2) I agree that more self-esteem would be a good thing, but how would seeing a therapist help in building self-esteem/confidence? Honest question - because after all, I am already seeing one and find it rather pointless (aside of getting to try different types of pills)
3) Mirrors viveutvivas point: If the chatting up part is the issue, then how does suggesting to chat women up help, at all?

(This is quite independent of the other issue in my life, that quite simply my job does not leave me much time to meet anyone but so far I am not prepared to switch jobs because I am rather unconvinced that without resolving the above complications, it would help me)

[arjacent]

Adderall gives me confidence and alcohol gives me inhibition. Short term they work fine.

I think you are idealizing the "good ole days". Marriage back then was sort of forced as you say... and that isn't exactly freedom. At the same time I think you do make a lot of good points. We've become weak in a lot of ways and there is less pressure to go out and date. But one thing you haven't considered is that women are becoming more and more masculine. They don't "like" being treated like a lady. Society has taught them they are just like us men and to resent being looked "down up" as the fair sex. They are supposed to focus on careers and drink beer with the lads. They do not see themselves as filling a complementary role to the male... they are out there to compete with us and claim their own stake. This "neo-woman" is an offshoot of feminism and is what girls are exposed to on a daily basis.

[Luminosity]

Responding to arjacent: There were plenty of bad things about the good old days. What I have found is that there was also a purpose to the design of many customs because I lived through the opposite. Ideally we should leave the bad behind, like forcing gays to pretend to be straight and making women subservient, and bring back the customs that served a purpose. The more life experience I have the more I see that dating, marriage and coming of age customs in most cultures were designed to prevent broken hearts, unplanned pregnancies, men using women, people hooking up with the wrong people, and other pitfalls. Coming of age customs were designed to convince people they were datable/marriagable, having gone through whatever thing it was. Probably this kept people from obsessing on not being attractive or manly enough. You went through the ordeal or got the bone through your nose, so now you're datable. It also kept young people busy, tired and supervised.

I'm not sure how many women don't like being taken out to dinner, given compliments or flowers. I once gave a platonic female friend flowers when I was inexcusably late and she turned to me and made a point of telling me she was bisexual, which she never did before. She was a modern woman. I don't believe that women are unapproachable or undatable because they are progressing towards equality.

Nupi, you need to find a good talk therapist. It's not that easy but PsychologyToday.org has some detailed listings by area. The info was inputted by the therapist. Not all claims may be true, but it might help. As for your monetary ideas, try why don't you try it my way and see what happens?

As a man is with his money, so he is with his heart.

All of you can go up to someone and ask them out. I have. You can.

If you really can't do that, seek appropriate help, which is not in a pill bottle.

Edited by Luminosity, 14 December 2012 - 02:33 AM.

[nupi]

arjacent: I wish regular Amphetamine was actually on the market in Switzerland - right now, MPH seems to be about the most dopaminergic substance available and reports are quite split on whether it does much for confidence. Plus shrinks seem to be not very open to letting adults try it for off-label stuff.

Luminosity: I will fully agree that many of the old customs had stabilizing effects on society and maybe should be brought back. Alas, the environment has changed and people need to adapt, wishing it was like back in the good old days does not really help anyone. And I don't think anyone is claiming moden woman to be unapproachable or undatable (some are but it's not obvious whether that wasn't always the case), the complaint here is more that "we" (the men) are unable to approach them. And personally, I blame primarily myself for it, meaning that while I have somewhat jaded views on women, I do not blame them. I would probably respond to the incentives in quite a similar way.

Maybe it's just me, but I still fail to see how a therapist could help here. Thinking and talking about it won't remove the fear (I am aware it's irrational so classical CBT approach of questioning your beliefs is not helpful, either) which is ultimately what needs to happen. A really good wingman might be a more appropriate solution.

As for "As a man is with his money, so he is with his heart." - Agreed, I will guard my money and my heart, the few times where I failed to do either one, bad things happened.

[nowayout]

Why are you all putting the onus on men to approach women? Haven't we made any progress in the past 50 years? Surely we are past the time of expecting women to be passive little flowers, or aren't we? That is just regressive and paternalistic. I am sure modern women are perfectly capable of using their own two legs, walking up to a man, and introducing themselves. Don't tell us you want to be equal if what you really want is to act like a passive little flower.

Edited by viveutvivas, 14 December 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Luminosity]

You should read my previous postings.

And we were always your equals.

[Luminosity]

Yesterday after my posting an extremely beautiful Asian woman came into the library where I was. She was having a problem doing something on the internet. The library people couldn't help her that much. I went over and in a little while I knew her first and last name, her age, that she was looking to get married, where she was from and all the details of the problem she was dealing with which concerned her personal security and peace of mind. She was very open and vulnerable. Due to the nature of the problem, I was able to tell her she was beautiful and didn't look her age and not to worry. She pretty much demanded that I hug her. I had to leave then. If I was a man I believe that I might have gotten a date with her. Certainly I would have asked. This woman looked like a movie star and was well-dressed.

I partly did this to help her but I partly did this to prove a point. There are beautiful women out there that are single and looking for someone. I just met one.

Get out there and ask someone out!

[Galaxyshock]

Alright I will

[nupi]

Get out there and ask someone out!

This is precisely why seeing a therapist (or talking to friends, for that matter) is not in any way helpful. It invariably boils down to "just get over it and do it anyway". Now maybe if someone would come up with an idea that would outline HOW to get over it, that would help. So far, I have not met anyone - online or in real life - who could do so.

It's a vicious circle really - confidence comes from success but success does not come without confidence (in fact, not even failure comes without sufficient confidence to go and try). So ultimately, something needs to provide enough confidence to start the journey and that something can either be an activity/experience (which is not working for the reason outlined) or a substance. Except I am too screwed up to ask my shrink for the one medication that I suspect could help (or even to go buy cocaine, for that matter)... So unfortunately it is much easier to medicate away the nasty side effects and make life tolerable with an SSRI than trying to hit the root cause.Do I feel particularly bad about it? Not with the meds. Is it screwed up? Absolutely.

Edited by nupi, 15 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Major Legend]

I am a man, I don't understand women they make it so difficult for themselves why don't they just make themselves all look like 18-22

I'm sorry but it ain't that simple to change years of psychological conditioning since birth, and a couple of very validated scientific reasons mentally and physically why some men would find it more difficult to develop this confidence to just "go up" and talk to any woman..otherwise men would easily do it, I know a lot of 40-50 year old men who can't approach attractive women out of nowhere it's not like men back then were more brave, society was different so the way dating and mating was achieved was jut different.

woman just look at the successful men they like and use that as a model, its the same if men just looked at young, hot, and thin women and held that as a standard to, as if its that easy for any woman to instantly accomplish, its kind of like saying hey I don't get why women have these mood swings, why don't they take therapy and make them have "stable" emotions throughout the month, physical and mental genetics, plus upbringing/conditioning have real implications for men and it can't be fixed by a couple of "heart to heart" talks.

Finally I know couple of very confident female friends that are tall blonde etc, and I know they have the same anxiety issues if you asked them to approach an attractive member of the opposite sex. So I don't think its fair to hold men to the same standard, when women can't do the same. I mean we are already supposed to do everything else, cut us some slack and yes the posters thinking is very common among many members of the female population, unfortunately the super confident types they meet is not a product easily achievable by a change of heart.

I mean so what if a guy is confident in meeting women, if he is disadvantaged like nervous, awkward, autistic spectrum, short and so on he is still going to be met with difficulty, not much different from the difficulty a less attractive female would have in playing the dating game. Saying guys can easily change by therapy and taking a few trial and tribulations is...I don't know...off?

[Major Legend]

What I meant was: it's not impossible, but it seems that the process that goes about instigating such change is poorly understood and seems to comprise of many factor, people often forget for every 1 successful changer out there there are likely 99 people who have done the same and failed. Confidence and self esteem are complicated, and is pretty much a core component of our personalties, how we form our realities and how we respond and act to everything, and I agree having them is a very very good thing not just for relationships, but for life quality in general.

[nupi]

I'm sorry but it ain't that simple to change years of psychological conditioning since birth, and a couple of very validated scientific reasons mentally and physically why some men would find it more difficult to develop this confidence to just "go up" and talk to any woman..ot

Do you have any pointers to these scientifically validated reasons?

And as for the ugly women have it bad too (though I posit that outside maybe the worst looking 5%, they all could get laid tonight with very little work): cosmetic surgery may be a big intervention but arguably easier to obtain than changing your whole personality... And frankly for many women it would be good enough to simply lose weight - although this is more true in the US/UK than elsewhere.

Edited by nupi, 15 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[nowayout]

You should read my previous postings.

And we were always your equals.

I know you were and are equal. But I was responding to the general expectations of what men are supposed to do. It seemed as if men are expected to be the ones to take the initiative to meet, do the work in asking out, do the taking out to dinner, pay for it, etc. It sounded to me that you were basically agreeing that this is the script that should be followed, which is a sexist, regressive, and non-equal script, not much different from saying that women should do the cleaning, but maybe that is not what you meant.

Edited by viveutvivas, 15 December 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Luminosity]

If you really don't have the courage to ask women out, then get help. Denigrating women will not help you. Not all therapy is cognitive/behavioral therapy. There are emotionally-based therapies. If there is a substance abuse problem, then get assistance for that.

These are my self-expression threads which might benefit some people:

http://www.longecity...-these-self-expression-threads/

Edited by Luminosity, 16 December 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Major Legend]

I'm sorry but it ain't that simple to change years of psychological conditioning since birth, and a couple of very validated scientific reasons mentally and physically why some men would find it more difficult to develop this confidence to just "go up" and talk to any woman..ot

Do you have any pointers to these scientifically validated reasons?

And as for the ugly women have it bad too (though I posit that outside maybe the worst looking 5%, they all could get laid tonight with very little work): cosmetic surgery may be a big intervention but arguably easier to obtain than changing your whole personality... And frankly for many women it would be good enough to simply lose weight - although this is more true in the US/UK than elsewhere.

Women looking better is a far more achievable goal than changing personality which is a combination of both conditioning and genetic temperament, in those terms men and women are not equals women can lose weight, use make up, get cosmetic surgery, buy nicer clothes. I've seen many women make 180 transformations, on the other hand it's not so easy for men they can't change height, cognitive aspects easily. Don't forget that a cognitive trait in men such as obsessive thinking may be useful in many fields or work but be completely unattractive to most women, most women like men which act in the moment, over analysing everything is not romantic.

Also the standard for attraction for men to feel attracted to women is much less than vice versa, an average looking chick is enough for most men, whilst women will usually have more criteria, though I think this is cultural, because lots of geeky and nerdy guys find girlfriends easily in Asia , due to several reasons (which I won't go into) women in the west have much harder standards, and wealth isn't a factor because there are lots of wealthy Asian regions nowadays.

In terms of scientifically? Its not at all hard to link a real condition like social anxiety with the lack of confidence, whilst women with social anxiety could still get relationships easily, i'm sure most scientifically proven mental disorders will impair a man's ability to engage women on top of the the hundreds of different ways a man could have his confidence destroyed by the environment (lack of good parents, being bullied, ill health). By no means am I saying men are less confident than women, they are not. It's just that confidence is an essential trait to pursue women and it's not for women.

The good thing though is provided one has a normal life, men will gain experience and identify patterns in women which makes many aspects easier. Now one of these patterns is that women like to deny how hard it is for men, because it would be to admit that there is a unequal double standard for men in the dating scene due to how things always have been. Men need to appease and women are the choosers and that they are always attracted to the few that other women are attracted too, thus most of their "love" is not going to end happily. Admitting this would be to admit that they really have no control and none of their advice is useful unless they really can step into a man's shoes.

I don't know a guy thats ever heard any useful advice from women for starting a relationship, it's just that women play mostly a passive role in the process, so some of them "think" they know it all, like people who watch sports and shout advice at the TV.

So, if one wants to obtain self esteem and confidence, one has to use a combination of many factors to achieve this cognitive augmentation is one way to accelerate this process.

Edited by Major Legend, 16 December 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Major Legend]

Alot of therapy has a basis in normal people trying to fix people that they consider to be weird. Emotionally focused therapy is a good example, just read their definitions of people in terms of attachment style:

1. People who are secure and trusting perceive themselves as loveable, able to trust others and themselves in relationship. They give clear emotional signals, and are engaged, resourceful and flexible in unclear relationships. Secure partners express feelings, articulate needs, and allow their own vulnerability to show.

2. People who have a diminished ability to articulate feelings, tend to not acknowledge their need for attachment, and struggle to name their needs in a relationship. They tend to adopt a safe position and solve problems dispassionately without understanding the effect that their safe distance has on their partners.

3. People who are psychologically reactive and who exhibit anxious attachment. They tend to demand reassurance in an aggressive way, demand their partner's attachment and tend to use blame strategies (including emotional blackmail) in order to engage their partner.

4. People who have been traumatized and who vacillate between attachment and hostility

In other words, 1 : normal people 2: everyone else weird we don't understand, they must do bad things like being aggressive, passive aggressive..

ladies and gentle men this is silly. People who have problems are people just like everyone else they are not fundamentally broken or aggressive, this is like saying serial killers mush be schizophrenic...normal people have issues too nobody is completely free of emotional baggage, the logic behind the above definition is so stupid, that I don't know how to explain how stupid it is. As if somebody who is sensitive has to have attachment issues, has to be they ones who would consider emotionally blackmailing, being aggressive and blaming...this is so stupid.

Edited by Major Legend, 16 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[nupi]

If you really don't have the courage to ask women out, then get help. Denigrating women will not help you. Not all therapy is cognitive/behavioral therapy. There are emotionally-based therapies. If there is a substance abuse problem, then get assistance for that.

If you have a problem, get help. Extremely actionable advice, thank you very much.

I am not denigrating women - I have a somewhat jaded view of relationships in general (and my ex in particular but there it's probably warranted - even my friends say I should have pulled the plug on that relationship earlier) but that is not the same as denigrating women. And before you accuse me of being a misogynist or chauvinist, I have a female boss I usually get along with very well (if I did not, I would have looked for someone else to work with a long time ago). I can also deal with female co-workers or sub-ordinates (attractive or not, not that I have to do so too much in my line of work) just fine.

Substance abuse? Perhaps, I may drink a bit too much but if need be, I will stay away from it completely so I do not really fit the profile for addiction. I am also hardly ever hung over at work (the times it happens it generally comes from drinking on the company account during the week). Also, I have staid away from all the hard stuff - knowing I cannot trust myself with something like cocaine that puts you into god-mode.

Also the standard for attraction for men to feel attracted to women is much less than vice versa, an average looking chick is enough for most men, whilst women will usually have more criteria, though I think this is cultural, because lots of geeky and nerdy guys find girlfriends easily in Asia , due to several reasons (which I won't go into) women in the west have much harder standards, and wealth isn't a factor because there are lots of wealthy Asian regions nowadays.

Trust me - being in Asia (and fitting the "optimal boyfriend" mold to a T) does not help you a single bit if you are afraid to approach the girls there. I must know, I lived (albeit in an expat bubble but still) and traveled there long enough. In fairness, if you actually approach, yes, success is much more likely (and less bullshit flies your way to start with - maybe I should go back to Singapore).

Edited by nupi, 16 December 2012 - 10:41 AM.