517 replies to this topic

[Luminosity]

Don't know what PRP is.

Your doctor is WRONG.

As previously stated, standard Western medicine doesn't have the capacity to regrow cartilage. If there is some edgy experimental thing they want to do that is supposed to help, ask for proof. Ask to talk to patients that have been helped. Wholistic and Asian medicine considers what you want to be on the edge of possibility, but you have to find the right information because not all of it is.

I continue to hope that you will try my various recommendations together for at least a month if not three months because I believe that is your best bet. I have done what you want to do.

I personally take twelve capsules of Swansons type II collagen each day, along with various other substances. I can't tell you how many grams that is. I would take more but my body doesn't get any additional benefit from that and these pills are expensive. All my supplements are expensive, so I try not to waste them. I take them the best way, at the best times. I have to take many substances and follow the routine. You will likely have to take these supplements for a long time.

It's hard for us to give you dosages because we don't know your height, weight, activity level, what you do for a living, etc. I would say, listen to your body.

If you are going to beat this thing, it will cost a lot of money so spend that money wisely.

I think your interest in healthy fats and related substances is good. They are important here. Not sure exactly which supplements would be best.

There is also Cetyl Myristoleate aka

CM8® which is used as an ingredient in a supplement called Flexcin, among other things. I think it is also used in something called Celedrin or something like that.

I haven't tried any of this. There are a number of threads about this substance on this site. Here are links to two of them. If you do have an interest in splitting a bulk order, let me know.

http://www.longecity...l-myristoleate/

http://www.longecity...oleateceladrin/

Someone wrote about ecdysterone. I took it, but I stopped. It did make me want to exercise and it seemed to help with the problem a little, but it messed up my periods in a weird way that never happened to me before. That worried me and I wouldn't take it again. It is a steroid-like substance extracted from a plant, I believe.

Not sure why you've developed this problem. If you want to tell us more about your eating habits, supplements, drugs, medications, smoking habits, exercise habits, family health issues, personal and health history, maybe we can be of more use. It is weird at your age. Any steriod use? Work history? Extreme diets? Drunk lots of energy drinks or sodas? Industrial exposures to toxins or radiation? Any unusual radiation exposures now?

You are making progress in learning stuff and sorting through the information. I just wish you would try all my recommendations for a month to three months.

In addition, this is a thread I wrote about Chinese medicine. A good acupuncturist might have more ideas on why this happened:

http://www.longecity...hinese-medicine

Edited by Luminosity, 01 February 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[ironfistx]

[quote name='Luminosity' timestamp='1359700208' post='563100']
Don't know what PRP is.

Your doctor is WRONG. [/quote]

Link to studies showing cartilage regeneration that aren't funded by a product manufacturer?

[quote]As previously stated, standard Western medicine doesn't have the capacity to regrow cartilage. If there is some edgy experimental thing they want to do that is supposed to help, ask for proof. Ask to talk to patients that have been helped. Wholistic and Asian medicine considers what you want to be on the edge of possibility, but you have to find the right information because not all of it is.

I continue to hope that you will try my various recommendations together for at least a month if not three months because I believe that is your best bet. I have done what you want to do.

I personally take twelve capsules of Swansons type II collagen each day, along with various other substances.[/quote]

I assume you mean this stuff?

http://www.swansonvi...500-mg-120-caps

That's BioCell collagen. The reason I haven't started taking that is because it has hyaluronic acid and there might be a link between that and cancer metastasis, so that makes me hesitant.

[quote] I can't tell you how many grams that is. I would take more but my body doesn't get any additional benefit from that and these pills are expensive. [/quote]

How have you determined the dose at which your body ceases to get a benefit?

[quote]All my supplements are expensive, so I try not to waste them. I take them the best way, at the best times. I have to take many substances and follow the routine. You will likely have to take these supplements for a long time.[/quote]

I don't mind that. I assume I have this problem because of a diet issue so taking supplements to make up for that is fine with me.

[quote]It's hard for us to give you dosages because we don't know your height, weight, activity level, what you do for a living, etc. I would say, listen to your body. [/quote]

5'9.5" (176cm), weight is currently around 160lbs (72.5 kg), maybe a little less, bf is under 10%. I work at a computer all day.

[quote]If you are going to beat this thing, it will cost a lot of money so spend that money wisely.

I think your interest in healthy fats and related substances is good. They are important here. Not sure exactly which supplements would be best.

There is also Cetyl Myristoleate aka

CM8® which is used as an ingredient in a supplement called Flexcin, among other things. I think it is also used in something called Celedrin or something like that.

I haven't tried any of this. There are a number of threads about this substance on this site. Here are links to two of them. If you do have an interest in splitting a bulk order, let me know.

http://www.longecity...l-myristoleate/

http://www.longecity...oleateceladrin/

Someone wrote about ecdysterone. I took it, but I stopped. It did make me want to exercise and it seemed to help with the problem a little, but it messed up my periods in a weird way that never happened to me before. That worried me and I wouldn't take it again. It is a steroid-like substance extracted from a plant, I believe. [/quote]

I'm not really able to use steroids of any kind. I know for sure this includes anabolic/androgenic and corticosteroids, and I'm assuming it involves plant steroids as well.

[quote]Not sure why you've developed this problem. If you want to tell us more about your eating habits, [/quote]

I'm 32 now. From age 18-27 I ate a lot of fast food and frozen pizzas, partly because they were cheap, and partly because I was lifting weights a lot and with a fast metabolism and needed to eat around 5,000 calories a day just to maintain weight. As of now I don't think I've had fast food in the last 4 years. I eat pizza less than once a month. I try to eat a salad every day. I do cook on Teflon a few times a day.

[quote]supplements, [/quote]

Occasional creatine use in the past (5g daily for a few weeks, a few times in a few years), multivitamins off and on. For the last month glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM.

[quote]drugs,[/quote]

Weekend party drinking in the past. Now less than 4 drinks per month on average. Weed maybe a dozen times. No hard drugs.

[quote]medications,[/quote]

A super small dose of Clonidine daily. 0.025mg. That's 1/4 of 0.1mg.

[quote]smoking habits, [/quote]

No smoking.

[quote]exercise habits,[/quote]

Lifted weights regularly 2-3 times a week up until this started.

[quote]family health issues, personal and health history, maybe we can be of more use. It is weird at your age. Any steriod use? Work history? Extreme diets? Drunk lots of energy drinks or sodas? Industrial exposures to toxins or radiation? Any unusual radiation exposures now? [/quote]

No real family health issues. No steroid use. Office jobs. No extreme diets other than eating 6,000+ calories on the daily for years (fast metabolism + trying to be a bodybuilder). I almost never use caffeine. Maybe one cup of tea per month.

Toxins: yes, my high school was shut down due to black mold (stachybotrys). Radiation: just xrays here and there.

[quote]You are making progress in learning stuff and sorting through the information. I just wish you would try all my recommendations for a month to three months.

In addition, this is a thread I wrote about Chinese medicine. A good acupuncturist might have more ideas on why this happened:

http://www.longecity...hinese-medicine
[/quote]


Any before/after MRIs to support what you're saying?

[niner]

Is there any particular reason you wouldn't increase it to 20 or 30g? Do you think there would be any danger, or it would just be wasteful. I've been using 10g Fortigel daily since Jan 11th, so 20 days as of today.

Nothing hard and fast. In the literature, they've seen good results in humans from doses as low as 1200mg, but there are more papers that use a 10g dose. When people are trying to prove a point by running a study on a compound, they usually use as big a dose as they think they can safely get away with, or bigger, if it's an animal study. This makes me think that 10g is more of a max than a min. One thing that seems to be consistent with this therapy is that it takes a long time. It might take 3-6 months for it to do what it will do. Also, the result is likely to be an improvement, rather than a complete cure. If you combine it with appropriate physical therapy and perhaps other treatments, you can probably make a significant improvement. Good luck with it.

[ironfistx]

Is there any particular reason you wouldn't increase it to 20 or 30g? Do you think there would be any danger, or it would just be wasteful. I've been using 10g Fortigel daily since Jan 11th, so 20 days as of today.

Nothing hard and fast. In the literature, they've seen good results in humans from doses as low as 1200mg, but there are more papers that use a 10g dose. When people are trying to prove a point by running a study on a compound, they usually use as big a dose as they think they can safely get away with, or bigger, if it's an animal study. This makes me think that 10g is more of a max than a min. One thing that seems to be consistent with this therapy is that it takes a long time. It might take 3-6 months for it to do what it will do. Also, the result is likely to be an improvement, rather than a complete cure. If you combine it with appropriate physical therapy and perhaps other treatments, you can probably make a significant improvement. Good luck with it.

That makes sense. I think I will stick with 10g day unless I see something suggesting otherwise.

[ironfistx]

I wonder if I should make another thread for treatments or if I should just leave it in here.

I've been contacting the places I've found that seem to be legit. Some of them tell me PRP is really only used for tendon injuries. Others tell me it works for arthritis. I wonder if the people who tell me it works for arthritis are just trying to get me to pay for treatments.

I think the next step is to ask them if they have a history or any case studies of successfully treating arthritis with PRP.

Regarding stem cell treatment:

- some places use bone marrow (which supposedly is better for cartilage regeneration)
- some places use adipose
- some places use both
- some places seem very eager to get me to be a patient
- I get the feeling from some clinics that they are just trying to capitalize on the stem cell name. Like, they actually do get stem cells from you, and they do inject them into you, but they're just doing it so they can say they offer a stem cell treatment. But they seem like they have no idea what the result will be, nor do they possibly even care. Almost like they're going through the motions just so they can get money from people who want stem cell treatments
- prices range from around $2,000 to much, much more
- at least one stem cell doctor has been in a lawsuit for falsifying records and not even being present during operations

To be fair, I wouldn't really care about the cost if it would fix me.

Advice on how to proceed?

[Luminosity]

That sounds shady. Where is the proof? Where are the cured patients? If you really want to pursue this, find out how to look for complaints and lawsuits against these people where you live, on the internet and with the BBB.

For my money, you should spend the resources on the other things that I've recommended.

[Luminosity]

I used to be wheelchair bound due to an ankle injuries to my cartilage and other soft tissues from a fall, now I am walking. I used to be on high doses of (natural) anti-inflammatories and other related stuff, but now I'm not. I had some pre-existing problems with my knees and lower back that are much better too. I did this all with wholistic medicine. I have developed some hip joint problems probably caused or made worse by being in the chair. They are harder to work on because it's harder not to use those joints while you heal them, but I'm working on it.

I don't have before and after MRI's. I don't have a link to studies. I was the study. I did get an MRI out of pocket but it turned out that MRI's aren't even the right test for the ankles and it was ordered wrong by the doctor too. So I certainly didn't get an after MRI. Watch out thinking that MRI's are so crispy and scientific. They have their limits and the people who order them, give them, and interpret them are fully human, sometimes too much so.

Biocell collagen is just powdered chicken cartilage. Chicken cartilage is one of the things that chicken soup is made from. If you ever find any organic stuff, that might be better but I recommend it and will keep taking it. As I wrote before, the hyluranic acid is just a natural component of that food. It is present in other commonly eaten foods too. As I wrote before, I took all the kinds of type II collagen except fish/shark collagen and I feel that this is best.

Not sure how I came up with the dosage, possibly what was recommended. I have tried higher doses but it doesn't have any added benefit for me.

Studies are often funded by drug companies (or not). They control medical publishing. Not all studies are true. I've seen at least one where the results were just made up by the doctor, and to be fair, it was all on him. No drug company was involved in that case.

Some people find comfort in the crisp authority of Medicine and Science, but they don't always have the answer. Your doctor didn't.

I'm going to let you figure it out from here.

Good luck.

[mikey]

I recently had an MRI which revealed cartilage loss in my elbow. I immediately started researching treatment options since I would like to be able to keep weight lifting.

I've seen some site that recommend type II collagen supplements for cartilage, although there are other sites that say eating collagen doesn't mean it will get to your joints. Some other people said collagen supplements are too expensive and you should just eat Jello instead.

Then I found a product called "Fortigel" that is (a proprietary blend?) collagen hydrolyzate that supposedly has studies showing before and after MRI studies that show a regrowth of cartilage.

My doctor told me regrowing cartilage isn't possible.

The only products I found that contain "Fortigel" are some expensive things on UK sites, and then a product from Swanson called "Joint Health Drink Mix with FORTIGEL" which is like $20 for 30 servings. A serving contains 10g of Fortigel.

So my questions:

1) Is "collagen hydrolyzate" just a fancy word for "hydrolyzed gelatin"? I've seen hydrolyzed gelatin in some other joint supplements, such as Labrada's ElastiJoint.

2) If so, is $20 for 300g (the price of Swanson's product mentioned above) a good price? That's $0.066 per g. I see other "hydrolyzed gelatin" supplements that are like $5 for 30 2g servings, which amounts to $5 for 60g, or $0.083 per g. This comparison is only valid if "collagen hydrolyzate" = "hydrolyzed gelatin."

3) Can you actually regrow cartilage?

Links to the references to the studies on Fortigel:

http://www.fortigel....ific-proof.html
http://flexeze.co.uk...g-research.html
http://www.ergo-log....upplements.html

Regrowing cartilage is absolutely possible, but not because of taking supplements, although they are helpers to the therapy that does grow new collagen.

It's Prolozone Therapy. Read about it here.

[Logic]

Icariin promotes extracellular matrix synthesis and gene expression of chondrocytes in vitro.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22308065

I have noticed a studious ignoring of my previous posts in this thread.
Is this because they have nothing to do with 'Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements'?
or
Is this because everyone considers the posts to be bullshit?

[Logic]

Scientific evidence and rationale for the development of curcumin and resveratrol as nutraceutricals for joint health.
[My paper]Ali Mobasheri, Yves Henrotin, Hans-Konrad Biesalski, Mehdi Shakibaei
Musculoskeletal Research Group, School of Veterinary Medicine and Science, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, The University of Nottingham, Sutton Bonington, LE12 5RD, UK.
Interleukin 1β (IL-1β) and tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) are key cytokines that drive the production of inflammatory mediators and matrix-degrading enzymes in osteoarthritis (OA). These proinflammatory cytokines bind to their respective cell surface receptors and activate inflammatory signaling pathways culminating with the activation of nuclear factor κB (NF-κB), a transcription factor that can be triggered by a host of stress-related stimuli including, excessive mechanical stress and ECM degradation products. Once activated, NF-κB regulates the expression of many cytokines, chemokines, adhesion molecules, inflammatory mediators, and several matrix-degrading enzymes. Therefore, proinflammatory cytokines, their cell surface receptors, NF-κB and downstream signaling pathways are therapeutic targets in OA. This paper critically reviews the recent literature and outlines the potential prophylactic properties of plant-derived phytochemicals such as curcumin and resveratrol for targeting NF-κB signaling and inflammation in OA to determine whether these phytochemicals can be used as functional foods.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:22605974

[ironfistx]

Interesting. Even small doses of curcumin upset my stomach and killed my libido, though :(

There's a huge thread on curcumin on mindandmuscle.net. Apparently it's also an MAOI (although the type that doesn't cause the cheese effect), causes bruxism during sleep, and rebound inflammation upon cessation.

Seems like it has a bunch of health benefits, though.

[ironfistx]

Does anyone know if all hydrolyzed collagen products are the same?

Fortigel says it's collagen hydrolysate and has all the studies backing it up. However, I'm trying to find out if Fortigel's hydrolyzed collagen is the same as, for example, Source Natural's (http://www.swansonvi...CL026&csp=SN180) or Nutricology's (http://www.swansonvi...ula-8-5-oz-pwdr).

They all say "hydrolyzed collagen" (well Fortigel says "collagen hydrolysate" but that's the same thing, right?).

[niner]

Does anyone know if all hydrolyzed collagen products are the same?
They all say "hydrolyzed collagen" (well Fortigel says "collagen hydrolysate" but that's the same thing, right?).

Different products could have different sizes of peptides. In other words, the collagen might be cut into a lot of little pieces, or a smaller number of bigger pieces. I don't know if there actually IS any difference, but there COULD be. I wouldn't be surprised if some are different. The degree of hydrolysis might matter more to some people than others. It might depend on the condition of your GI tract. "hydrolyzed" and "hydrolysate" refer to the same process.

[ironfistx]

So is it the best bet to stick with Foritgel since that's the type that specifically has had the studies done on it?

[summertimex]

for small amounts of cartilage/skin/collegen damage. make the triple joint complex (glucosamine, chondrotin, msm, hyaluronic acid.) into a cream by dissolving the pills in to a moisturizing cream. along with putting cellular-tropic hormone like estrogen, pregnenolone or testosterone in it. put the cream on the damaged spot. take along with vitamin c, collagen multivitamin.

[ironfistx]

Evidence to support that cartilage can be rebuilt through skin cream application?

Edited by ironfistx, 13 February 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[BioFreak]

I haven't read through all the pages, but I wanted to contribute my experiences:
I have cartilage damage in both patellas(knee) in 2003. I've tried a lot:
glucosamine+chondriotine helped a bit, but had limits.
msm made me cut back on antiinflammatories, and those came back later if I kept on using msm.
However, I hit a limit... and it did not regenerate further.
No wonder, since only part of cartilage is from glucosamine and chondroitine, but the largest part is collagen. So I suppose I could only fix that part.

Anyways, I also tried cissus which kicked ass to eliminate any inflammation, but I don't think it did regenerate anything.

curcumin helped a bit, but again, just inflammation, not regeneration.

celadrin did help quite a bit too, and with both this and cissus I had the feeling that I never even had knee problems - but again, no real regeneration.

once I quit those, the pain would come back.

I then started fortigel, after looking at impressive studies. Its a figgin slow process, but after about 3 months I was able to get off celadrin and cissus, and I had no pain. Now thats regeneration!

Where am I now? I am still taking glucosamine, and a tiny amount of chondroitine, together with fortigel.

It seems to get better, but very slowly, in comparison from where I was a year ago its a difference between day and night. I wonder if that feeling that my joints are not running smoothly will ever fade, because the cartilage is not smooth anymore and I am not sure if the body can also get rid of the damaged parts, not only regenerate, to get back the smooth surface. But I can live with that, as long as the pain is gone, and the joints can be stressed again. Thats already happening, I have to really put them under pressure to feel only little pain, and with everyday movements, it just feels like ... nothing. Like a normal joint(no pain or uncomfortable feeling). It's been about 6 months into fortigel btw.

so long story short:
cissus and celadrin for short term pain,
fortigel and glucosamin for long term regeneration. That combination kicks ass.

I have a question though - anyone got their joints to be smooth again? I still have that feeling that cartilage is not smooth, resulting in even hearable cracking, but also feeling it in my knees right where the damage is/was.

Edited by BioFreak, 13 February 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[ironfistx]

msm made me cut back on antiinflammatories, and those came back later if I kept on using msm.

This part confused me. What came back if you kept using MSM? Are you saying MSM lost its effect and the pain came back even though you were still using MSM?

I then started fortigel, after looking at impressive studies. Its a figgin slow process, but after about 3 months I was able to get off celadrin and cissus, and I had no pain. Now thats regeneration!

Where am I now? I am still taking glucosamine, and a tiny amount of chondroitine, together with fortigel.

It seems to get better, but very slowly, in comparison from where I was a year ago its a difference between day and night. I wonder if that feeling that my joints are not running smoothly will ever fade, because the cartilage is not smooth anymore and I am not sure if the body can also get rid of the damaged parts, not only regenerate, to get back the smooth surface. But I can live with that, as long as the pain is gone, and the joints can be stressed again. Thats already happening, I have to really put them under pressure to feel only little pain, and with everyday movements, it just feels like ... nothing. Like a normal joint(no pain or uncomfortable feeling). It's been about 6 months into fortigel btw.

Which Fortigel product are you using?

I was using Swanson Joint Mix but I believe I am having a negative reaction to the Stevia that is in that product so I am now looking for Fortigel products that don't have artificial sweeteners added, but I'm having difficulty finding them.

[tham]

Horsetail is just about 7 or 8 per cent silica. A far better source is bamboo,
which easily contains ten times more, some 70 to 80 per cent.

I used to order this for my father. Better start ordering again for him as
well as myself. If you are outside the UK, shipping cost in neglible, since
for Royal Mail, they just add in an extra 25 per cent of the cost after
deducting 20 per cent VAT.

http://www.naturesbe...ica-200mg-p780/


Solaray has it as well.

http://www.iherb.com...-Capsules/24423


The hyaluronic acid content in Type 2 collagen is way too low, and there
won't be much left getting to the joints after accounting for bioavailablity.


Injections of hydrogel-based, stem cell-based and other improved forms of
hyaluronic acid compounds are the answer to cartilage regeneration.

Hyaluronic acid affects the in vitro induction effects of Synthetic PAMPS and
PDMAAm hydrogels on chondrogenic differentiation of ATDC5 cells, depending
on the level of concentration.

http://www.biomedcen.../14/56/abstract



Preliminary histopathological study of intra-articular injection of a novel highly
cross-linked hyaluronic acid in a rabbit model of knee osteoarthritis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23389746


Articular Cartilage Regeneration With Intra-articular Injections of Autologous
Peripheral Blood Stem Cells Versus Hyaluronic Acid: A Randomized Controlled Trial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23380230/



A pilot study to compare two different hyaluronic acid compounds
for treatment of knee osteoarthritis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23298499



Preliminary study of highly cross-linked hyaluronic acid-based
combination therapy for management of knee osteoarthritis-related pain

http://www.dovepress...ed-article-DDDT


Photocrosslinked alginate with hyaluronic acid hydrogels as vehicles for
mesenchymal stem cell encapsulation and chondrogenesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23225791




Methionine with glucosamine.

Evaluation of the effect of methionine and glucosamine on adjuvant arthritis in rats.

" ....combined administration of methionine and GlcN markedly suppressed
synovial hyperplasia and the destruction of the cartilage surface and articular
meniscus of the knee joints "

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23170118


Early intraarticular injection of hyaluronic Acid attenuates osteoarthritis
progression in anterior cruciate ligament-transected rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23020698/

[Logic]

SIGUMIR?
CARTALAX?
CARTILAGES EXTRACT?

From the inventors of Epitalon.
http://eng.gerontolo.../bioregulators/


More reasearch reqd.

[ironfistx]

Does hyaluronic acid contribute to cancer metastisizing?

Edited by ironfistx, 13 February 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[niner]

Does hyaluronic acid contribute to cancer metastisizing?

Where did you hear this? I've not heard of it.

[ironfistx]

Does hyaluronic acid contribute to cancer metastisizing?

Where did you hear this? I've not heard of it.

From wikipedia:

Hyaluronan synthases (HAS) play roles in all of the stages of cancer metastasis. By producing anti-adhesive HA, HAS can allow tumor cells to release from the primary tumor mass, and if HA associates with receptors such as CD44, the activation of Rho GTPases can promote epithelial-mesenchymal transition (EMT) of the cancer cells.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia....ncer_metastasis

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19218337

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11353970

http://hms.harvard.e...stasis-10-12-12

http://www.denvernat...uronicacid.html

I see it mentioned a lot whenever HA i brought up:

http://csn.cancer.org/node/242237

[niner]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11353970

This seems like the smoking gun. The only question I have is about bioavailability- Is HA orally bioavailable? The Denver Naturopathic Center post, which sounded like it was written by someone with a clue, said that it wasn't, at least not very much. It the above link, the exogenous HA was injected. It seems like a bad plan to take HA if you have a known cancer. The tricky part would be the case of the unknown cancer...

Thanks for all the links, ironfistx.

[BioFreak]

msm made me cut back on antiinflammatories, and those came back later if I kept on using msm.

This part confused me. What came back if you kept using MSM? Are you saying MSM lost its effect and the pain came back even though you were still using MSM?

Which Fortigel product are you using?

I was using Swanson Joint Mix but I believe I am having a negative reaction to the Stevia that is in that product so I am now looking for Fortigel products that don't have artificial sweeteners added, but I'm having difficulty finding them.

I was taking voltaren as anti-inflammatory, I *think* 100mg? Anyways, when I got off the stuff the inflammation would come back immediately. After adding msm, I could lower my dose to 50 or 25mg, and once I stopped voltaren, it took longer until the inflammation came back. So it definitely improved my inflammation, but not to the point where I would say that I could use it mono. That was 10 years ago, however, the voltaren dosages might not be right. And it was in the acute stage, when I just got the knee damage. Later on I still had some pain but I did not need to take voltaren, or, well I did not want to because of the long term sides.

I use Gelastin from a german company: http://www.atro-prov...ELASTIN--Pulver

[BioFreak]

I got hyaluronic acid into the knee at the beginning of my problems. It worked really well....

... for the doc's wallet who gave it to me. For me it didn't do SHIT and I cant believe I took the risk of infecting my joint through injections, which could lead to no ability to move them anymore. (!!!!!!!!!) Ironically it was that doc that already had a immobalized knee due to infection. Lucky for me, he was very careful with disinfecting my knee, over a longer time period before doing the injection.

As far as I know the oral route is ineffective.

I almost forgot. I also tried silicia in the form of "Kieselerde" (rich in silicium). And for its minimal price, it was okay, it had a minimal, but good effect, but because it was so minimal it could have been placebo after all. I don't take it anymore. From what I have heard though, its the particle size of silicium that bioavailability depends upon, the smaller, the better, so probably not much of that silicium made it into my body anyways.

[Luminosity]

Biofreak,

Regenerating cartilage is a slow process. You sound like you have learned a lot and made a lot of progress. I think further healing is possible for you. Read my posts on this and other threads about it, using Google. Protect the area from weight, pressure and friction. As you have done, use natural means to keep down inflammation while taking stuff to build up the tissue. Keep the acid in your diet and drinks down. No soda, no energy drinks, little coffee or tea. Watch for citric acid in foods, candies and drinks. NO SMOKING. No partying. An occasional drink won't hurt but no heavy or daily drinking.

Also read the posts I wrote on my thread about Chinese Medicine.

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

Try not to drink cold drinks or eat cold food. Try not to skip meals. Read the posts I wrote to Clarity on the above thread.

Besides the supplements you have already found and those I recommend here, you could try ginkgo to help microcirculation (capillaries) which might help boost healing. I like Gaia Organics liquid Ginkgo Biloba alcohol extract. Take it on an empty stomach not close to bedtime.

When trying to prioritize, keeping well nourished, and keeping weight, pressure, and friction off the area are tops. Eat a steamed green vegetable every day. Up circulation by exercising safely, if you can. Swimming may help. Find ways to do your daily activities while babying the affected area. Use assistive devices if necessary. Use supportive gear if it helps. Take all the help you can from wherever you can find it. Use the scooter at the store if it helps you.

There is the whole subject of Chinese herbs and acupuncture, but you have to proceed carefully. Read my thread above and don't get so spun out pursuing that that you forget to eat properly. There are probably Chinese herbs that might help you but finding the right ones and right acupuncturist could be a whole thing. I would do all this stuff first and see how it goes.

When trying to evaluate new supplements, remember, Whole Foods and Swansons have liberal return policies. If you have to prioritize supplements, the ones that nourish are very important, but it's best to take all the ones that help you, if you can. People have different metabolisms, so people may end up with different choices to some extent.

Haven't tried bamboo, but it looks interesting as a source of silica.

Prayer may help if it's o.k. for you. If you can only stand to have other people pray for you, do it.
Following is a list of functioning prayerlines that I have assembled:

http://www.longecity...6-prayer-lines/

Edited by Luminosity, 15 February 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[tham]

I use Gengigel, a hyaluronic acid gargle, spray and gel, to minimize receding gums
with age. Am I even bothered about mouth cancer ?

http://www.medical-e...gengigel_1.html


If you are so terrified of hyaluronic acid helping cancer cells to proliferate, I am
out of ideas, and I doubt anyone here can help you to regenerate your cartilage.

Your body is all connective tissue. Hyaluronic acid is found everywhere. Without
it, you would fall apart. It's not just used by cancer cells. The only difference is,
cancer cells are immortal - you are not.

Without hyaluronic acid, your retina would detach.

http://www.hyalogic....o-for-the-eyes/


" As well as contributing to the structural properties of the extracellular matrix,
hyaluronic acid may have important regulatory functions in cartilage. Very low
concentrations of hyaluronic acid inhibiit cartliage nodule formation .... "

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1148875/?page=1


The amount of hyaluronic acid in Type 2 collagen supplements is PEANUTS.
And whatever little is present won't be able to reach your joints, let alone
stimulate cancer cells to migrate. Hyaline cartilage, the most plentiful of the
three forms, have no blood supply.

This is why you need other forms of delivery, such as by injection. Pure oral forms
can also be tried, but would be very slow.

http://www.911health...ynthovial7.html



"Cartilage has limited repair capabilities: Because chondrocytes are bound in lacunae, they
cannot migrate to damaged areas. Therefore cartilage damage is difficult to heal.
Also, because hyaline cartilage does not have a blood supply, the deposition of new
matrix is slow. Damaged hyaline cartilage is usually replaced by fibrocartilage scar
tissue. "

http://en.wikipedia....artilage#Repair

Edited by tham, 15 February 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Luminosity]

I agree with all of that except the hopelessness of using oral supplements to heal cartilage and the usefulness of injections.

You can use oral supplements if you get good ones and use them the right way. I haven't tried injections but I am suspicious and think they could be expensive and harmful.

Edited by Luminosity, 15 February 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[tham]

It's quite safe, lasts about 6 months. The orthopedicians here have been
using it on osteoarthritic patients for many years.

The last I heard, cost about RM 300 - 500 for each injection.


http://myais.fsktm.um.edu.my/7131/

http://www.yspsah.co...cle/BU41-45.pdf

http://www.morthoj.o...ular_Sodium.pdf

http://www.herbal-re...eoarthritis.php