11 replies to this topic

[KnifeUp]

So, I did 30 days straight on modafinil. I seen the benefits: insights, smarts, alertness, and so forth. However, I went cold turkey 2 weeks ago and, for the first 4 days, I did nothing but laid around in bed and slept all day.

I was half super-tired and half mentally retarded. Like, it was as if someone pulled the plug on my brain. If you've quit caffeine before, its that feeling.

What is worse is that, for the last 2 weeks when I was on it and for the first 1.5 weeks when I quite it, I had "abnormal ejaculation" (thats the term for it on the label).

Basically, I would ejaculate within 5 strokes during sex... but I wouldn't come. LOL WTF. That has to be the most terrible side effect ever.

After I caught up on my sleep, I feel like I'm performing similar to when I was on modafinil. I might not be getting all these crazy ideas but, for some reason, I'm finishing my german tests sooner than when I was on it and I'm scoring the same grade.

So, that brings me to this question: Whats all the hype with modafinil? Sleep > modafinil for me.

[deh707]

How were you dosing it?

50mg once or twice a day seems to be the sweet spot for "healthy" (non-prescribed) people, such as myself. And only 3-4x a week, or tolerance obviously develops.

I dislike quitting anything cold turkey, because of the sudden significant shift in mood. I like to be in a stable, consistent, subtle-mood changing phase when it comes to being on something, and tapering off something.

When I was on 600-800mg caffeine everyday, I realized I was taking too much, and decided to half the dose every week. I ended up doing 400mg/day on week 1, 200mg/day on week 2, 100mg on week 3, and a week later, 50mg/day would be just enough to wean off any withdrawal symptoms.

Now I'm at 150-300mg/day with the same L-Theanine dosed alongside.

Edited by deh707, 14 February 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[alecnevsky]

Interesting. I wonder if this can be somehow related to the prefrontal cortex damage mice exhibited during consistent dosing of modafinil in "that one south american study I cannot source." Also, I wonder if this is related to bad quality sleep. Does anyone know what mod's effects on sleep are? For example, we know choline induces REM/Paradoxical Sleep, which can have some unfavorable effects on memory consolidation. But, I read that orexin neurons do not fire at all during REM sleep and those are the neurons modafinil positively affects to some degree in the hypothalamus. So if mod affects orexin neurons, then it shouldn't induce REM sleep...?


Edit: Actually continuing with some research on modafinil/armodafinil I found this.

Paradoxical sleep deprivation increases the content of glutamate and glutamine in rat cerebral cortex.

Bettendorff L, Sallanon-Moulin M, Touret M, Wins P, Margineanu I, Schoffeniels E.

Source

Laboratory of Neurochemistry, University of Liège, Belgium.

Abstract

We investigated the influence of the sleep/waking cycle, the effects of paradoxical sleep deprivation (PSD) and of the vigilance-promoting drug modafinil on the amino acid contents of rat brain cortex. No significant nycthemeral variations in amino acid levels could be detected. PSD (12-24 hours), using the water tank method, significantly increased the levels of glutamate and glutamine. The increase was still observed after the sleep rebound period. gamma-Aminobutyric acid (GABA) levels did not change significantly during the instrumental sleep deprivation but increased during the rebound period. Control experiments indicate that the increase in glutamate and glutamine levels is due to PSD rather than to the stress associated with the experimental procedure. The increase in glutamate content cannot arise only from transamination reactions, because the levels of other amino acids (such as aspartate) did not decrease. Modafinil treatment did not significantly modify the brain cortex content of any of the amino acids tested.

Looks like it's the REM sleep deprivation that increases glutamate and glutamine levels and Modafinil treatment does not have any effect on the amino acid profile. Which then probably implies, doing modafinil consistently could deprive one of the REM cycle, which then in turn could lead to the glutamate cytotoxicity? This is in support of modafinil's pharmacology i.e., effects on orexin neurons in hypothalamus (the ones that stop firing completely during REM sleep.) I wonder then, whether the only sleep you can get on consistent modafinil treatment is SWS ? Which may be why the OP crashed hard (REM-deficit leading to glutamate cytotoxicity.)

Edited by alecnevsky, 18 February 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[pedr0vsky]

I find that modafinil actually blunts my concentration. Probably do to D2 receptor agonism. Awful nootropic.  03-01-05_1032.jpg   175.8KB   35 downloads

Edited by pedr0vsky, 18 February 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[alecnevsky]

So, by a really really long stretch of previously made assumptions. It seems that one could modulate the Mod-induced -- REM-sleep deficiency-induced glutamate toxicity by also dosing Piracetam, which depletes glutamate levels.

[chung_pao]

To open with the confession that you took it for 30 days straight kind of ruins your credibility, lol.

It has its occasional uses. Such as it's intended use: narcolepsy and keeping airplane pilots awake.
However, a daily intake results in tolerance, downregulation, withdrawal and the usual.

But as a nootropic, I agree with you. Definitely overrated.
Encoding requires recovery from input. Modafinil doesn't allow one to recover.
It doesn't cope with the way the body works. I'm still waiting for cephalon to develop one with a shorter half-life.

[LBGSHI]

alecnevsky: Interesting by itself is the fact that sleep deprivation increases glutamate levels. Certainly relevant to anyone using nootropics, and particularly anyone supplementing with glutamate directly. In general, sleep deprivation coupled with nootropics is a bad idea, not least because it's a waste of good nootropics.

[clockwatcher]

30 days straight? 1-2 times per week at 50-100mg is where it's at for me. Prolonged moda screws with my sleep, if I take it 3 days straight I get a huge rebound sleep debt.

Little and often I like to keep that moda in the war chest for a tough day

[leftside]

^^^Agreed

[Dagger907]

I'm prescribed 200mg modafinil(brand name Modiodal, Cephalon, 100mg tablets) which I never buy online but from a pharmacy. Its really expensive, but I digress. I've been using it for about 3-4 years, with some breaks as its breaking the bank..

I've never experienced noticable withdrawal symptoms, if any at all. Not comparable to amphetamines, caffeine or analogs/related chemicals. The only side-effect I get is a bit of loose stomach when I havent used them for a while. I've never developed tolerance for it either, but more a "used to it" feeling without missing the effects.

I'm prescribed modafinil for delayed sleep phase syndrome, and I am otherwise a healthy individual. Male, 22 years and about 80kg bodyweight.

It's hard to describe the effects, but it really sharpens my "edge" mentally. I don't feel like I'm missing out when I'm not taking it, but usually in retrospect I can tell that periods off it is less productive.

Taking 50mg seems to me as a bit of a joke, I've never experienced effects of dosages that low. A minimum of 100mg is required for me. I've heard alot of experiences where people buy this shit online, proabably getting some fake indian brand thats alot cheaper. Theese brands(Sun Pharma etc) seems to be hit and miss as far as I can tell from anecdotal evidence..

Best regards to you all, and try the expensive real Modafinil when you have work-intensive periods! Its a great drug imo, and has helped me alot with my sleep phase syndrome.

[alecnevsky]

^ Thanks for your feedback dagger907. Armo from Sun Pharma is not at all bad for people who are not suffering from any type of sleep disorder (students/other worker bees etc.) But, of course, I'd rather buy it from the original developers rather than some knock-off pharma, if I could. Glad to hear you've experienced no side-effects in long term. I think 3-4 days a week for 4 years is better than 30 days straight.

[Dagger907]

I'm usually not concidered about brand-specific formulations of drugs, but generic Modafinil in particular caught my eye as a huge scam when reading reviews of generics some years ago. Many reviewers thought they got some mix of caffeine and noname uppers. I dont have the references to this at the moment.

The sources from where to obtain it, ie "online pharmacies" also seemed shabby at the time. This might have improved for all I know. Concidering the ridiculous price of original Modafinil, I belive lots of people turn to the fake generics, causing some confusion whether they are reporting genuine effects or not.

The brand name I get has a characteristic weird taste of Modafinil. It's hard to describe but it's sort of sweet, in a strange and unpleasant way. I'd look for that taste.

@alecnevsky: I've done 30 days straight, on and off etc. but now I often find myself using it on weekdays only, as its so expensive and might migitate some of the tolerance/side-efects for those experiencing it.
Sun Pharma produced Modalert last time I checked, Armo seems like their brand of Armodafinil. Do you have any experiencereports or something to share regarding this? I've never tried Armodafinil, but it should be slightly stronger per mg as its the enantiopure form of Modafinil? Standard dose of 150mg?

EDIT:
@alecnevsky: Interesting points regarding SWS. As I mentioned, I was diagnosed with Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome age 16 and I'm still struggling with it. I was diagnosed with a extensive polysomnography which lasted a couple of days. I dose Modafinil exclusivly in the morning, around 06:00 the mornings I get up. The causes for DSPS are not widely researched, and treatments are scarce. I'm extremely hard do wake up at normal times, and Im often in the state of "nadir"(where the body temperature is at its lowest and the person is hardest to wake up if I'm not wrong) at normal wake-times. Found a japaneese report. Maybe you could provide some insight on Modafinils effect?

Best regards

Edited by Dagger907, 21 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.