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Lostfalco's Extensive Nootropic Experiments [Curated]

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#1351 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

That's a reason I understand, but why soylent specifically? There are tons of others meal replacements which will provide vitamins and minerals for you.


As you can see by my link i made my own version. There is no meal replacement which has what i want. Soylent was just one of many things which gave me the motivation to make my own "soylent"



Idd, the majority is deficent in some vitamins or minerals, but that can easily be fixed with a multi. People will also lose tons of other great things like phytochemicals, dietary cholesterol (iirc, he has 0 g of it) and most likely tons of other compouns not yet found.


There are phytochemicals which i include in my brew. I have plenty of cholesterol, as to other compounds not yet to be found?
I doubt they are essential, in researching elemental diets in relation to crohn's i learned a few interesting things. One being that elemental diets put crohn's into remission rapidly. Within 2 weeks for most (80%+) they remain in remission for as long as they remain on the elemental diet. Quality of life improves etc.

Returning to a wholefoods diet brings the majority of crohn's symptoms back within the majority of people studied. People have also lived on meal replacements for decades with no ill effects. Things like ensure,vivonex etc. These are very low quality in comparison to what i have made.

Not to mention the fact the majority of the population is deficient in a majority of vitamins, while simultaneously taking in food toxins because of poor food choices. They seem to be doing "ok"

#1352 gwern

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

Does anyone know (or have a theory on) how they would interact with lasering, CoQ10, shilajit and PQQ? Contraindications?


I am currently running a magnesium citrate self-experiment concurrently with LLLT; I have not noticed any interaction. (I used Magtein previously, and it subjectively seems similar to the citrate.)

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#1353 lostfalco

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

First of all, thanks to everyone for all of your recent contributions...the level of activity in here has been amazing. I'm loving all of the ideas and encouragement this community has been providing for one another.

Anyway, I've kind of been avoiding this for a while but I think the level of activity and the number of people researching and posting right now necessitates the fact that we get on the same page logic/reasoning/critical thinking-wise. I would strongly encourage that everyone who has the time and inclination check out Eliezer Yudkowsky's introduction to Baye's Theorem, lesswrong.com, and biases and heuristics research.
http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes/
http://lesswrong.com/
http://en.wikipedia....ognitive_biases

Additionally, please spend a little time (if you have it =)) learning the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions. http://en.wikipedia....and_sufficiency

I know that MANY of you already have these skills...but I think it's going to be important going forward that as many of us as possible at least have a grounding in some of these ideas. This community rocks...thanks guys!
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#1354 lostfalco

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:01 PM

Does anyone know (or have a theory on) how they would interact with lasering, CoQ10, shilajit and PQQ? Contraindications?


I am currently running a magnesium citrate self-experiment concurrently with LLLT; I have not noticed any interaction. (I used Magtein previously, and it subjectively seems similar to the citrate.)

What's up gwern? Good to hear from you man! I've been checking your updates periodically...I think your most recent 'on' day was 10/15 the last time I looked. Do you mind giving us an update on your protocol, what tests you decided to run, and your current findings? I get the impression that LLLT hasn't been working for you thus far.

#1355 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:07 PM

Hey gwern :)

It's goukix0x here. Do you think magtein is worth the price? it is very expensive in comparison to magnesium citrate, and I haven't heard anything in regards to it's efficacy.

#1356 gwern

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:15 PM

It's goukix0x here. Do you think magtein is worth the price? it is very expensive in comparison to magnesium citrate, and I haven't heard anything in regards to it's efficacy.


I think it's pretty unlikely Magtein ™ can justify its price, especially since the evidence is basically two small mouse studies, and I've pointed out in the past that animal studies are extremely unreliable (they are generally poorly done compared to human studies, suffer more than human studies from huge systematic issues like publication bias, and even well-done sets of studies free of systematic bias are quite likely to fail to predict results in humans; see the studies I compiled in http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#fn97 ). Truth be told, I wouldn't even have bought the Magtein I did if I had examined the dose more closely and realized just how expensive it was on a daily basis. One is probably better off buying magnesium citrate powder and just taking big doses like 800mg.

What's up gwern? Good to hear from you man! I've been checking your updates periodically...I think your most recent 'on' day was 10/15 the last time I looked. Do you mind giving us an update on your protocol, what tests you decided to run, and your current findings? I get the impression that LLLT hasn't been working for you thus far.


I haven't noticed anything subjectively aside from the dramatic tiredness after the first LLLT session. I've fallen behind on some of my projects because I've been so distracted by other things like the vociferous comments on many of my Hacker News submissions over the past month (heck, I'm still not quite done with dealing with the reaction to my LSD microdosing experiment http://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing ...). But I've resumed LLLT on alternate days, so it should be a usable covariate in future analyses. For example, we'll see what my Zeo data says.
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#1357 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:29 PM

Those were my thoughts as well. The amount of magtein I would have to consume to meet the RDA would break the bank.
Are you going to be using dual n back or quantified mind to map potential progress with LLLT? If not how are you measuring results?

#1358 gwern

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:36 PM

The amount of magtein I would have to consume to meet the RDA would break the bank.


Me too. Maybe if magnesium l-threonate ever becomes available in a form an order of magnitude cheaper...

Are you going to be using dual n back or quantified mind to map potential progress with LLLT? If not how are you measuring results?


I would like to resume DNB, but right now I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with everything going on. I am just continuing my current metrics: Mnemosyne/spaced-repetition, Zeo sleep metrics, 2 daily self-ratings (creativity & MP), # of gwern.net edits, and window-tracking.

#1359 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:40 PM

Ahhh spaced repetition, how exactly do you use that to measure? Also quick question in regards to srs, is there a limit to the amount of time i can commit to each session?
I've been using it for computer science to GREAT effect and i'm considering increasing the review phase to 1 hour a night from 30 mins. Is this practical? Or is there a limit to what the mind can store in such a short time (diminishing returns).

P.S I will now attempt to stop deviating from the thread subject matter :/

Edited by Raisinthehouse, 24 October 2013 - 05:48 PM.


#1360 gwern

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:48 PM

Ahhh spaced repetition, how exactly do you use that to measure? Also quick question in regards to srs, is there a limit to the amount of time i can commit to each session?


Right now, I am merely extracting the grades from reviews that day and then eg. averaging them to get a score for a day on day X of, say, 3.75099. This is measuring recall.

It *would* be nice to measure some sort of 'storage', like for example, you could, if you wait long enough, take every card reviewed on day X and see what score they got on the next day they were reviewed (which will be anywhere from days later to years later). If the 100 cards reviewed on day X have a higher followup score on days X+1, X+20, X+21, X+33...X+big-number than the 100 cards reviewed on day Y, then perhaps one's long-term memory system was encoding memories unusually well on day X compared to day Y. But this storage/encoding question, while I think it is doable based on the data Mnemosyne collects (if you wait long enough), is too hard for me to program since I don't really know Python or SQL :)

I've been using it for computer science to GREAT effect and i'm considering increasing the review phase to 1 hour a night from 30 mins. Is this practical? Or is there a limit to what the mind can store in such a short time (diminishing returns).


I don't know for sure, but I personally wouldn't try to go over 30 minutes simply because I would expect that I might 'burn out' at some point and lose the habit of using Mnemosyne. I spread out my addition of cards for this reason, I don't want to do too much and wind up doing nothing at all.

#1361 BigPapaChakra

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:54 PM

There is an interesting and thorough post here by a user named ScienceGuy showing that magnesium sulfate via epsom salts are just as effective as more expensive forms of magnesium, and that he has used IV mag. sulfate before with great success. Interesting read, I suggest everyone who's interested in magnesium give it a look.

AscendantMind: (1) I wouldn't worry about purchasing tons of ice. If anything, fill up ziplock baggies with water and freeze them. One great technique is face dunking, I haven't researched that thoroughly but I'm pretty sure it affects your vagus and/or trigeminal nerve(s), and a lot of people have done them first thing in the morning with great success in decreasing their high morning cortisol. As of late, I simply take contrast showers, wear minimal cloths at all times while keeping my room cold, and exercising in the cold which also greatly enhances my exercise performance. As Fall continues, after I figure out some detox techniques, I'll probably start ice baths but I'll simply fill up some jugs of water and freeze them and toss em in - probably won't get below 55 degrees but I'm not worried. I'm actually not certain on the effects of drastically lowering body temp, I'm contemplating a more gradual dose. (2) so your experience with 23andMe and Genetic Genie has been good? Helpful, as well, in terms of altering diet and supplements? I'm very interested in getting 23andMe for my birthday with Genetic Genie, but I've received mixed input - it was the greats $100 spent in terms of well-being/health/etc. or that it is absolutely worthless without Organic Acid Testing, which is pretty expensive, at least for my budget.

#1362 chris106

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:02 PM

Just a small update from me. Yesterday evening I took 20mg PQQ and 200mg Q10, as well as Magtein and LED'd the whole brain with my 96LED last evening (30 seconds roughly to each region).

An hour later I took a sleep-stack consisting of 400mg Ashwagandha, 200mg L-Theanine and 100mg 5-HTP with VitC+B6. The idea was to counteract any wakefullness that TULIP might induce over night.

But holy mother, was I awake and motivated the whole night @_@. I will probably go into more detail in the TULIP-experiences thread.

Can anyone hypothesize whether a serotonine inducing stack like the one above (which would otherwise just make me really tired) could actually potentiate TULIP effects?

Again, my bad for combining too many things, I guess. I will for now ditch any sleep-stacks as well.
Also, next time i will try TULIP in the morning, hoping for the same effects I had last night during the day. :)


Bizarre. I've been observing exactly opposite effects with TULIP. It deepens my sleep consistently and quite significantly--my deep sleep percentages have moved from 40% to 60% from TULIP alone, and my number of sleep cycles has gone from 4-5 to 7-8. On an occasion where I consumed a few drinks with friends before going to bed late (normally a very bad recipe for sleep quality--I've seen it go as low as 29%), using the LEDs right before bed completely canceled out any sleep-damaging effects of the alcohol, leaving my deep sleep percentage at 50%.

Now, I don't use all the supplements in your sleep stack. I actually have tested them all, however; for a few months, I spent two weeks each testing ashwaganda, L-theanine, argining+ornithine, collagen, activated charcoal, bioactive milk peptides, and GABA. Average sleep quality values went up by perhaps 2% at most on any of those, ranging up to 5% on good nights. Nothing like what TULIP did. So I quit them all.

Ashwagandha, from what I've heard, can have sleep-potentiating for some people, but for others it encourages too much energy for good sleep. Perhaps TULIP turned some switch in your biology that changes how you interact with it. No theories about the others, though.

Note: I do take a workout-recovery stack at night, consisting of slo-niacin, chromemate, policosanol, arginine+ornithine, creatine, alpha-lipoic acid, and Magtein (magnesium l-threonate), but this didn't have any noticeable effect on my sleep. Changes only started to occur with TULIP.


Another note: I use the 48-LED array on five spots on the forehead and the 96-LED array on 10 spots on the rest of my head. Duration is 60 seconds for each region. I do it in a completely dark room, so as to avoid any interference effects.



Interesting point about TULIP maybe switching something in regards to my reactions to Ashwagandha. While I've thought about this too, it might as well have been late interaction with the CILTEP stack...

Our different reactions to TULIP might as well be based on different individual problems in neuronal signalling to begin with. As far as my understanding goes, TULIP evens things out in that regard - resulting in a more "normal" brain chemistry - no matter in which direction it was distorted to begin with...

Of course it might as well just be my weird individual brain chemistry :) I've also noticed that I don't react too well to the Caffeine/
L-theanine combo anymore - guess I will reduce my basic supplements to an absolute minimum while trying TULIP.

If I can even get close to the effects i mentioned above during the day with TULIP + a few basic supps, I'll be more than happy!

I will try TULIP with PQQ and Q10 fisrt thing tomorrow morning, and maybe add Magtein later. I'll let you guys know how my day went (or if I'll have slept through it) ;)

Edited by chris106, 24 October 2013 - 08:11 PM.


#1363 AscendantMind

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:13 PM

Cool approach :)

http://diy.soylent.me/recipes/the-brew

This is an earlier version of my version of soylent. I've since changed it. It lacks carbs because it's keto. Currently in the process of repairing the gut permeability caused by crohn's. I lost over 40 pounds of lean mass as a result of crohn's, mostly due to the fact i wasn't absorbing nutrients. So far i've gained a little over 10 pounds back, while regaining mental clarity with this "brew"

When i feel my gut is where it needs to be in regards to health, i'm going to attempt to regain my lost muscle by upping my calories to 5k a day in conjunction with a strength training routine. All done via soylent :)


Interesting brew. If I may make some suggestions... you may be sick of hearing advice but I'll try to provide good reasoning.

First, I would add 50-75 g of non-fructose carbohydrate. This will not disrupt ketosis as long as you increase MCT levels as well. The reasoning for this: The body needs a certain amount of glucose for mucin and nervous system activity. Yes, the nervous system can use some ketones, but the body WILL have glucose one way or another.

If there is no glucose in the diet, your body will obtain a certain amount through other methods. The first is through the processing of fats for energy. Cleaving lipids for metabolic use yields about 200 calories of glucose. This happens as a natural consequence of metabolism. The second method is gluconeogenesis, whereby amino acids are converted into glucose. This process is hard on the liver, produces a lot of toxic ammonia as a byproduct, and cannot always be done efficiently (which is why many on zero-carb dieters report higher incidences of some cancers, especially digestive tract cancers; you need glucose to make mucus for protective linings).

If you increase to 50-75g of carbohydrate and simultaneously raise your MCT levels to 500-1500 calories, you will remain in ketosis because so many ketones will be produced. You should also add BCAAs (5g daily) to support ketosis. Intermittent fasting, NAC and biotin supplementation, and sufficient protein consumption will also all help ensure your ketone production is sufficient.

Additional note: I've been trying a 5,000 kcal diet (largely liquid) for the past 3.5 weeks and gained 15 lbs with Tim Ferriss' Occam's Protocol. Unfortunately, about half of it has been fat. So you may want to start more moderately. :)

Idd, the majority is deficent in some vitamins or minerals, but that can easily be fixed with a multi. People will also lose tons of other great things like phytochemicals, dietary cholesterol (iirc, he has 0 g of it) and most likely tons of other compouns not yet found.


Not so easily. The scientific evidence for health benefits from multis is pretty low. This is mostly because most (or all) multis have bad combinations of ingredients--way too much of some things and too little of others. In addition, many use very suboptimal forms of vitamins or minerals (like selenium or manganese), or even contain nutrients that should not be supplemented at all (like beta-carotene, or vitamin E as alpha-tocopherol).

There are phytochemicals which i include in my brew. I have plenty of cholesterol, as to other compounds not yet to be found?
I doubt they are essential, in researching elemental diets in relation to crohn's i learned a few interesting things. One being that elemental diets put crohn's into remission rapidly. Within 2 weeks for most (80%+) they remain in remission for as long as they remain on the elemental diet. Quality of life improves etc.

Returning to a wholefoods diet brings the majority of crohn's symptoms back within the majority of people studied. People have also lived on meal replacements for decades with no ill effects. Things like ensure,vivonex etc. These are very low quality in comparison to what i have made.

Not to mention the fact the majority of the population is deficient in a majority of vitamins, while simultaneously taking in food toxins because of poor food choices. They seem to be doing "ok"


Good points. However, if you did want to risk adding some sources of phytonutrients to your brew, you could try Athletic Greens or somesuch, or do what I did for a while: Cook a few vegetables for optimal nutrition (steam broccoli for 5 mins, boil spinach for 60 seconds, or steam kale for 7 minutes), use a powerful blender (vitamix) to turn it and some water or fat into liquid, and then freeze in ice-cube trays. You can then use those units of nutrition for liquid foods (to tolerance; wouldn't want to inflame the gut, of course).

Edited by AscendantMind, 24 October 2013 - 08:18 PM.


#1364 Nattzor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:17 PM

Idd, the majority is deficent in some vitamins or minerals, but that can easily be fixed with a multi. People will also lose tons of other great things like phytochemicals, dietary cholesterol (iirc, he has 0 g of it) and most likely tons of other compouns not yet found.


Not so easily. The scientific evidence for health benefits from multis is pretty low. This is mostly because most (or all) multis have bad combinations of ingredients--way too much of some things and too little of others. In addition, many use very suboptimal forms of vitamins or minerals (like selenium or manganese), or even contain nutrients that should not be supplemented at all (like beta-carotene, or vitamin E as alpha-tocopherol).


The scientific evidence for health benefits from soylent is none at all, multis has some. And I bet you can find some fairly nice if you search around, or get individual vitamins.

#1365 chris106

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:24 PM

There is an interesting and thorough post here by a user named ScienceGuy showing that magnesium sulfate via epsom salts are just as effective as more expensive forms of magnesium, and that he has used IV mag. sulfate before with great success. Interesting read, I suggest everyone who's interested in magnesium give it a look.


You are right, I've read SG's thread about magtein. While I have yet to doubt anything he says, am I right in the assumption that magnesium sulfate can only be consumed in the form of injections or as transdermal cream? Cause while being way cheaper that would make it somewhat less convenient for me...

I also realized that I shouldn't underestimate the fact that the magtein product which I use contains lion's mane as well, even though in small amounts.

All that being said, I guess getting magnesium sulfate (maybe as cream) and lion's mane from a cheaper source will be the next thing i try when my current Magtein product runs out.

Edited by chris106, 24 October 2013 - 08:36 PM.


#1366 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:48 PM

Interesting brew. If I may make some suggestions... you may be sick of hearing advice but I'll try to provide good reasoning.

First, I would add 50-75 g of non-fructose carbohydrate. This will not disrupt ketosis as long as you increase MCT levels as well. The reasoning for this: The body needs a certain amount of glucose for mucin and nervous system activity. Yes, the nervous system can use some ketones, but the body WILL have glucose one way or another.

If there is no glucose in the diet, your body will obtain a certain amount through other methods. The first is through the processing of fats for energy. Cleaving lipids for metabolic use yields about 200 calories of glucose. This happens as a natural consequence of metabolism. The second method is gluconeogenesis, whereby amino acids are converted into glucose. This process is hard on the liver, produces a lot of toxic ammonia as a byproduct, and cannot always be done efficiently (which is why many on zero-carb dieters report higher incidences of some cancers, especially digestive tract cancers; you need glucose to make mucus for protective linings).

If you increase to 50-75g of carbohydrate and simultaneously raise your MCT levels to 500-1500 calories, you will remain in ketosis because so many ketones will be produced. You should also add BCAAs (5g daily) to support ketosis. Intermittent fasting, NAC and biotin supplementation, and sufficient protein consumption will also all help ensure your ketone production is sufficient.

Additional note: I've been trying a 5,000 kcal diet (largely liquid) for the past 3.5 weeks and gained 15 lbs with Tim Ferriss' Occam's Protocol. Unfortunately, about half of it has been fat. So you may want to start more moderately. :)


I'm aware of the mucus issue, NAC, biotin and protein are covered. Regarding mucus. Resistant starch directly feeds gut bacteria which produce mucus, while simultaneously correcting the balance of good to bad bacteria. The potato starch in the brew is pure resistant starch 3 TBS=43 grams being an amount that 99% of the pop won't see. You would have to eat a ridiculous amount a starch in order to see that. I'm also going to be taking dgl licorice which not only helps with the inflammation damage associated with crohns, it tells the cells in the digestive tract to produce more mucus.

I'm not taking a multi, i'm well aware of the issue with multivitamins. The multi in the brew shown is a placeholder, it's also formulated directly around the idea of anti competition. However in the updated brew all nutrients are individualized.

Good points. However, if you did want to risk adding some sources of phytonutrients to your brew, you could try Athletic Greens or somesuch, or do what I did for a while: Cook a few vegetables for optimal nutrition (steam broccoli for 5 mins, boil spinach for 60 seconds, or steam kale for 7 minutes), use a powerful blender (vitamix) to turn it and some water or fat into liquid, and then freeze in ice-cube trays. You can then use those units of nutrition for liquid foods (to tolerance; wouldn't want to inflame the gut, of course).


yeah can't tolerate greens atm. I have a bunch of various phyto's in the upgraded brew.

The scientific evidence for health benefits from soylent is none at all, multis has some. And I bet you can find some fairly nice if you search around, or get individual vitamins.



There's plenty of evidence. Soylent is simply a fancy name for a semi-elemental/polymeric diet. Diets which have been used for a very long time to put various gastrointestinal diseases into remission. With plenty of studies.

Edited by Raisinthehouse, 24 October 2013 - 08:55 PM.


#1367 AscendantMind

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:57 PM

I'm aware of the mucus issue, NAC, biotin and protein are covered. Regarding mucus. Resistant starch directly feeds gut bacteria which produce mucus, while simultaneously correcting the balance of good to bad bacteria. The potato starch in the brew is pure resistant starch 3 TBS=43 grams being an amount that 99% of the pop won't see. You would have to eat a ridiculous amount a starch in order to see that. I'm also going to be taking dgl licorice which not only helps with the inflammation damage associated with crohns, it tells the cells in the digestive tract to produce more mucus.


Ah, excellent. I didn't see the starch reflected in your macros, so I must have missed it. But glad you've got that covered.

yeah can't tolerate greens atm. I have a bunch of various phyto's in the upgraded brew.
also in regards to you're occam's protocol. You might see better results by pushing yourself even harder.


I actually did transition from Occam's protocol to his mid-level protocol (halfway between Geek-to-Freak and Occam's). Quite difficult, but I am getting good results. However, I still feel that at least my particular body cannot effectively transform 2500 excess calories into muscle every day, no matter what the stimulus. So I reduced my calories to 4K daily.

#1368 Raisinthehouse

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

Spelled your wrong feel bad. 5k calories is an end goal, once i start lifting i'll probably start at 3k and work my way up. Probably going to stick to something like 20-25kcal per pound of bodyweight.

#1369 Nattzor

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

There's plenty of evidence. Soylent is simply a fancy name for a semi-elemental/polymeric diet. Diets which have been used for a very long time to put various gastrointestinal diseases into remission. With plenty of studies.


Well, multis also got plenty of studies tbh. And I doubt most people count "put various gastrointestinal diseases into remission" as a health benefit if they don't have the problems. I personally believe that we haven't found near all of the chemicals in foods, they might not be needed to survive, but I bet they help tons.

#1370 BigPapaChakra

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:56 PM

I'm aware of the mucus issue, NAC, biotin and protein are covered. Regarding mucus. Resistant starch directly feeds gut bacteria which produce mucus, while simultaneously correcting the balance of good to bad bacteria. The potato starch in the brew is pure resistant starch 3 TBS=43 grams being an amount that 99% of the pop won't see. You would have to eat a ridiculous amount a starch in order to see that. I'm also going to be taking dgl licorice which not only helps with the inflammation damage associated with crohns, it tells the cells in the digestive tract to produce more mucus.


Ah, excellent. I didn't see the starch reflected in your macros, so I must have missed it. But glad you've got that covered.

yeah can't tolerate greens atm. I have a bunch of various phyto's in the upgraded brew.
also in regards to you're occam's protocol. You might see better results by pushing yourself even harder.


I actually did transition from Occam's protocol to his mid-level protocol (halfway between Geek-to-Freak and Occam's). Quite difficult, but I am getting good results. However, I still feel that at least my particular body cannot effectively transform 2500 excess calories into muscle every day, no matter what the stimulus. So I reduced my calories to 4K daily.


I'm interesting in hearing your experience with Tim Ferriss' protocols - I've been thinking about using them this winter to gain a bunch of much needed muscle mass (needed because I believe I may be under weight, but who knows, lol). I was thinking about making it a 'semi-cyclical mild ketogenic' version of his, largely incorporating MCTs via Upgraded MCT Oil and as much coconut oil in cooking a I can stomach; minimizing fat gain with cold thermogenesis AND a DIY cool fat burner vest while working out and 'refeeding' to impact nutrient partitioning.

That being said, I'm not sold that you need carbs for mucin, not at all. This is Paul Jaminet's hypothesis that is very poorly misunderstood. I'm not going to say I'm more educated or knowledgeable on this topic than someone with a Ph.D. in astrophysics and author of one of the most thorough and logical health books around, but others have challenged this view - the same pathway that glucose utilizes is utilized by Vit. C and protein plays a role; get adequate Vit. C and protein and you'll be fine. Many people think they are getting enough protein, but they aren't. The less carbs you eat, you more protein is eaten up via gluconeogenesis, actually around 80% of amino acids can be transferred to glucose. So if you are't eating the necessary amount of glucose for your brain (which, according to George Cahill and Richard Veech, can be decreased to well under 30g/glucose/day for your brain, after a LONG adaptation to ketosis), then protein will most likely be used up. Many people eat less protein as it is due to the false belief that it will knock them out of ketosis because of readings on keto-stix; so, they eat less protein (100-120g, sometimes less), and then if they eat around 30g or less of carbs, some of that protein is turned into glucose, so they are eating even less protein. That isn't even mentioning the fact that carbs in the form of green, non-starchy veggies are the equivalent of nothing - many don't factor in the glucose used up in chewing and digesting the calorie-poor, fiber-rich veggies. So if you're getting your 30g from only non-starchy veggies, well, then you're practically eating a zero-carb diet and most likely a zero-carb, low-protein diet, similar to those originally used in epilepsy where they put children on a very low-carb, low protein, water deficient, calorie poor diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....2?dopt=Abstract Dietary threonine restriction specifically reduces intestinal mucin synthesis in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17234895 Adequate oral threonine is critical for mucin production and gut function in neonatal piglets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1?dopt=Abstract Luminal threonine concentration acutely affects intestinal mucosal protein and mucin synthesis in piglets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15308471 Butyrate specifically modulates MUC gene expression in intestinal epithelial goblet cells deprived of glucose.

If you look into the Optimal Diet, which is what Paul Jaminet uses as his argument against ketosis and 'glucose deficiency', it is not only restricted in carbohydrate, but protein as well.

I'm also not sold on fructose being bad at all. I got into a large debate with Dr. Kruse on facebook about this and he just couldn't admit he hasn't looked at any of the literature and essentially used the argument of "I'm a surgeon and use MRIs.... Ray Damadian made MRIs..... MRIs show sugar kills humans in a modern field..... Let's look on the bright side of your research..... Fructose will buy you 30-40 years like a chimp.... for an evolutionary reason...". The largest meta-analyses have shown thus far that fructose exchanged isocalorically for other carbs don't change blood lipids nor negatively impact insulin/glucose control; in fact, they show weight loss, specifically fat loss. The studies that show negative effects are not only in rodents, but fed supraphysiological doses, I'm talking doses larger than the 98th percentile of U.S. sucrose/fructose/HFCS consumption. It also is in isolated forms - hardly an accurate model for humans, especially taking into account human studies that show benefits such as protecting against leptin resistance occurring from high fat feeding, increasing RMR, catalytic doses enhancing hepatic glucose response, etc.

#1371 AscendantMind

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:53 AM

I'm interesting in hearing your experience with Tim Ferriss' protocols - I've been thinking about using them this winter to gain a bunch of much needed muscle mass (needed because I believe I may be under weight, but who knows, lol). I was thinking about making it a 'semi-cyclical mild ketogenic' version of his, largely incorporating MCTs via Upgraded MCT Oil and as much coconut oil in cooking a I can stomach; minimizing fat gain with cold thermogenesis AND a DIY cool fat burner vest while working out and 'refeeding' to impact nutrient partitioning.


Well, so far I've tried two--the slow carb diet and Occam's Protocol. I didn't lose an ounce on the slow carb diet, despite following it to the letter (aside from perhaps eating too few veggies). I did count carbs, mostly out of curiosity--I was eating 1300-1600 a day and still not losing weight (from 20% bodyfat). I used the PAGG stack as well.

Occam's protocol does certainly encourage muscle formation, though a substantial portion of the weight gained (aside from fat) is likely to be glycogen and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy--which is to say, your muscle cells will expand in fluid volume. Not a bad thing, but not the same as pure strength achieved by myofibrillar hypertrophy. I used the supplements from the Geek-to-Freak protocol, but let me tell you--NO Xplode is crap, don't use it.

I used a high-fat diet initially instead of the high-starch diet he suggested, but gained some fat from it. Upon later reading I realized that carbs work better with his protocol than fat, because some of his supplements (like ALA) are specifically intended to take glucose to muscle cells. Greater fat would result in greater testosterone, but also more adipose tissue creation. (Unless you somehow achieve Dave Asprey's weird fat-turning-into-nothing metabolic zone).

Ferriss's protocols are a little too slim in research for my liking. I've realized now that blindly following them was misguided on my part; I intend to do much more research when I mass-gain again. For now I'm going to follow the protocols in Man 2.0, which focus more on hormone optimization (and are relatively low-carb).


That being said, I'm not sold that you need carbs for mucin, not at all. This is Paul Jaminet's hypothesis that is very poorly misunderstood. I'm not going to say I'm more educated or knowledgeable on this topic than someone with a Ph.D. in astrophysics and author of one of the most thorough and logical health books around, but others have challenged this view - the same pathway that glucose utilizes is utilized by Vit. C and protein plays a role; get adequate Vit. C and protein and you'll be fine. Many people think they are getting enough protein, but they aren't. The less carbs you eat, you more protein is eaten up via gluconeogenesis, actually around 80% of amino acids can be transferred to glucose. So if you are't eating the necessary amount of glucose for your brain (which, according to George Cahill and Richard Veech, can be decreased to well under 30g/glucose/day for your brain, after a LONG adaptation to ketosis), then protein will most likely be used up. Many people eat less protein as it is due to the false belief that it will knock them out of ketosis because of readings on keto-stix; so, they eat less protein (100-120g, sometimes less), and then if they eat around 30g or less of carbs, some of that protein is turned into glucose, so they are eating even less protein. That isn't even mentioning the fact that carbs in the form of green, non-starchy veggies are the equivalent of nothing - many don't factor in the glucose used up in chewing and digesting the calorie-poor, fiber-rich veggies. So if you're getting your 30g from only non-starchy veggies, well, then you're practically eating a zero-carb diet and most likely a zero-carb, low-protein diet, similar to those originally used in epilepsy where they put children on a very low-carb, low protein, water deficient, calorie poor diet.


Well, this was in fact the point I was making earlier. You do not, indeed, need to eat carbs, because of gluconeogenesis. This is a wonderful mechanism for emergency needs, but it generates a lot of ammonia as a byproduct (ESPECIALLY a problem if you're in the 40% of people that have deficient methylation detox pathways) and increases stress on the liver. Additionally, if you're an athlete, have vitamin deficiencies, or have various kinds of infections, your ability to produce glucose may not equal your consumption. That's why Jaminet is not such a fan of ketosis unless it is needed for treating medical conditions.

High consumption of protein (especially the amino acid methionine) is also associated with shortened lifespan. (I have sources for all of these, btw--let me know if you need them; they're in Jaminet's book, though.

But the ketosis strategy is still valid; it's how the Eskimos live, after all. It just may be less optimal (and a bit too much work) for normal people. Not worth the excessive effort for me at least; and I haven't seen anything that demonstrates that it will make you superhuman.

I'm also not sold on fructose being bad at all. I got into a large debate with Dr. Kruse on facebook about this and he just couldn't admit he hasn't looked at any of the literature and essentially used the argument of "I'm a surgeon and use MRIs.... Ray Damadian made MRIs..... MRIs show sugar kills humans in a modern field..... Let's look on the bright side of your research..... Fructose will buy you 30-40 years like a chimp.... for an evolutionary reason...". The largest meta-analyses have shown thus far that fructose exchanged isocalorically for other carbs don't change blood lipids nor negatively impact insulin/glucose control; in fact, they show weight loss, specifically fat loss. The studies that show negative effects are not only in rodents, but fed supraphysiological doses, I'm talking doses larger than the 98th percentile of U.S. sucrose/fructose/HFCS consumption. It also is in isolated forms - hardly an accurate model for humans, especially taking into account human studies that show benefits such as protecting against leptin resistance occurring from high fat feeding, increasing RMR, catalytic doses enhancing hepatic glucose response, etc.


I will have to look at my copy of the PHD in detail later; I don't remember most of the reasons why high fructose (small amounts are good) is bad, but I know at least one reason is that it increases fat deposition in the liver.

#1372 BigPapaChakra

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:09 AM

Interesting observations. I'd love to start his muscle building program(s), but it may be heard for me to get in 4-5k calories without resorting to heavy whipping cream or simply eating tons of carbs every day. Now, I'm really trying to add nutrient dense foods into my diet, because even after adopting an ancestral-style diet, I never added them in, simply excluded lots of toxins; now I'm adding in chicken livers, gizzards, backs, feet, and I should be receiving some Deer organ meats from my fiances step father - hopefully liver, kidney, and heart. Most of which aren't too calorie dense.

I agree that creating adequate mucin/polysaccharides, etc. via gluconeogenesis may be stressful, especially in the long term. I simply don't have enough research done on what may be optimal, but right now, in the modern world (yet depending on goals, genetics and epigenetics, and so on) I think operating both metabolic pathways (energy via beta-oxidation or using glucose) may be wise. This lends some merit (from experience and research) to Dave Asprey's ideas on cyclical ketogenic dieting, and Steven Fowkes has alluded to cycling in and out of ketosis, though not making it a metric to track ("am I in ketosis right now?!?!"). After viewing a lot of the results of Ben Greenfield, Peter Attia, and most incredible of all, Barry Murphy (Ross?), I think ketosis may benefit highly intense activities as well, especially when activating PGC-1a (although I've seen PGC-1beta being better for beta-oxidation, alpha being for glucose oxidation, and PQQ works PGC-1a...), brown and beige fat, and so on, fats can be used even better. Carbs can be consumed while still maintaining proper fatty acid utilization, and to a degree, beta-oxidation.

I'm just not certain on what's optimal, but I suppose it is entirely individual, hence why I want 23andMe and Organic Acid Testing done on myself. I was reading some portions of Vilhaljmur Steffanson's books, and he actually cited the Inuit eating carbs even in winter - keep in mind this is POLAR winter. They ate berries, found in ground starchy foods, twig-like foods, digested carbs in animals and fish, and so on.

I think Jaminet's argument, from interviews I've heard, is that fructose is detrimental to the liver, increases trigs, and forms AGEs. Again, this isn't shown in the most up to date literature not using supraphysiological, isolated, non-whole foods forms of fructose. Fructose actually forms reducing equivalents in the Pentose Phosphate Pathway (I need to learn more about this pathway, so I'm not entirely certain on the implications here) in the form of NADPH, can create phospholipids, can be turned into glucose, and is surprisingly less anti-ketogenic than glucose, and possibly galactose. Fructose is actually a 'ketose', rather than an aldehyde:
http://www.elmhurst....43fructose.html
http://chemed.chem.p...yde.html#common
I wonder if that is at least partly why it has been used with success in diabetic patients. If ketosis is stressful and solely mimics the starvation processes (which it does, but as far as I can tell that isn't necessarily a bad thing - activates chaperone mediated autophagy, among other interesting things), it seems as though fructose would be the best way to maintain adequate metabolic 'efficiency' (not damaging your beta-cells, maintaining low(er) blood glucose, increasing RMR, producing CO2, NADPH, etc.), along with adequate use of other glyconutrients such as galactose, d-ribose, xylose, xylitol, and so on.

Edited by BigPapaChakra, 25 October 2013 - 04:11 AM.


#1373 zawy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:40 AM

I'm still trying to figure that out!

Here's a thought for a relatively cheap whole-head device.

Purchase 19-21 of these IR LED arrays. They seem to be the same as the LED array inside the one popular among people here. It has a two pin power connector in the back.

Buy an adjustable headstrap such as this


I've been looking at that exact same thing (LED arrays), but the total cost was about $70 or so instead (without power).
http://www.aliexpres.../769933345.html - $0.047 ea - Free shipping
http://www.aliexpres...1261916124.html - $0.0418 ea + Free shipping
http://www.aliexpres.../505051318.html - $0,05 ea + $15.79 Shipping (to Sweden atleast), so there are a few options.



Anyone have an idea on how to power them up??


Sorry I didn't get around to answering this before.

Two people asked how to wire the 12 V LED arrays up. Here:
Design for 0.10 watts per LED. The arrays are probably meant for only 0.05 W per LED, but you can run them at a higher voltage to get MAYBE more light out of them. They all seem to have series resistors (a good design) which means you will not be able to run them very hot to get more voltage out of them, so you do not need to get the adjustable power supply. They have a light sensor (the little thing with a back-and-forth line in the the clear plastic cover) to turn off during the day. You can try blocking the cover or cutting one of the wires that lead to it, or cutting it off like I've done larger designs, at your risk of losing the array.

Powersupply watts = Volts x Amps = number LEDs x 0.10

Get 12, 24, 36, or 48 V powersupply. 12 V will be simplest and 10 amp seems to be enough for less than 30 of these arrays. Needs to have a voltage adjustment like the ebay link below to control power to LEDs.
12 V supply: Wire all 12 V arrays in parallel (look up "parallel series wiring")

12 V supply seems fine and easiest, but you can get other power supplies:
24 V supply: Wire pairs in series, then wire all pairs in parallel
36 V supply: replace word "pairs" in sentence above with "triples"
48 V supply: quartet in parallel.

Look for red glow in LEDs to know they are on.

You have to have a soldering iron, some solder, and some good wire.

http://www.ebay.com/...=item4acade596e

Edited by zawy, 26 October 2013 - 01:00 AM.

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#1374 lostfalco

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:29 PM

Interesting LEF article from 2011 claiming that BCAAs cause mitochondrial biogenesis and complement PQQ and resveratrol.

http://www.lef.org/m..._Booster_01.htm

"A study recently published in the respected clinical journal Cell Metabolism4 reveals that branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) have the power to increase life span in part by inducing mitochondrial biogenesis—the spontaneous generation of new mitochondria.

In this article, the results of this study are detailed. BCAAs may complement the life span effects of both pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) and resveratrol.5-7

Specifically, BCAAs may trigger cellular mechanisms that enhance mitochondrial number and function while also upregulating expression of the pro-longevity gene that resveratrol targets: sirtuin-1!1,6,7"

Edited by lostfalco, 26 October 2013 - 07:31 PM.

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#1375 lostfalco

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:21 PM

VERY good article on PGC1a as a major regulator of energy production in the body. The best part is this: PGC1a upregulates energy production AND energy cleanup...AND it upregulates cleanup more than production! Therefore, you get more production AND less damage simultaneously. That's pretty effin' cool.
http://jcs.biologist...25/21/4963.long

"Overall, the studies on the effect of PGC1α on oxidative metabolism reveal that it increases mitochondrial biogenesis in parallel to elevating the cellular ROS-detoxifying capacity, such that cells can benefit from increased respiration and ATP production without suffering from oxidative damage. For these reasons, PGC1α has been suggested to coordinate a ‘clean energy programme’ (Finkel, 2006), in which the generation of mitochondrial high energy metabolites (ATP) and removal of toxic derivatives (ROS) are coordinately regulated."

Edited by lostfalco, 27 October 2013 - 02:49 PM.


#1376 lostfalco

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

From wikipedia: How to activate PGC1a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPARGC1A
"PGC-1α is thought to be a master integrator of external signals. It is known to be activated by a host of factors, including:
  • Reactive oxygen species (ROS) and reactive nitrogen species (RNS), both formed endogenously in the cell as by-products of metabolism but upregulated during times of cellular stress.
  • It is strongly induced by cold exposure, linking this environmental stimulus to adaptive thermogenesis.[6]
  • It is induced by endurance exercise[4] and recent research has shown that PGC-1α determines lactate metabolism, thus preventing high lactate levels in endurance athletes and making lactate as an energy source more efficient.[7]
  • cAMP response element-binding (CREB) proteins, activated by an increase in cAMP following external cellular signals.
  • Protein kinase B / Akt is thought to downregulate PGC-1α, but upregulate its downstream effectors, NRF1 and NRF2. Akt itself is activated by PIP3, often upregulated by IP3K after G-protein signals. The Akt family is also known to activate pro-survival signals as well as metabolic activation.
  • SIRT1 binds and activates PGC-1α through deacetylation."


#1377 lostfalco

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:41 PM

Resveratrol + Equol
"Collectively, these data demonstrate that the combination of two known natural products, resveratrol and equol exerts a synergistic effect on mitochondrial function because stimulates the mitochondrial biogenesis more than the single compounds alone."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3750512/

#1378 Keynes

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:51 AM

I have done some very minor research into the efficacy of LED irradiation in wound healing. Quite nice, and I was personally not fully aware of the highly beneficial nature of it. It surprises me that it isn't used in greater extent, seeing as it's such an easy, effective and cheap procedure. Well, it's "new", not perfectly understood (what is?) and has a slight quackery-stamp on it for some reason, but still. Another pro is that it's psychologically pleasant to perform, you get the warmth and slight pressure over the affected areas, and you are being proactive in your own healing. I used my LED on my feet after running today (I do barefoot running in minimal shoes) and it relieved the tension there wonderfully.

Some links I'm sure you've seen before:
http://link.springer...5083-8_7#page-2
http://140.116.84.13...iewArticle/1641
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11776448


TULIP works great so far btw!

Edited by Keynes, 28 October 2013 - 01:56 AM.


#1379 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:38 AM

LED'ed a sore right shoulder and upper back followed by the far upper left corner of the forehead (on the front of the left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) followed by the left primary motor cortex. Then sat down for breath meditation.

After about 2 minutes of breath meditation, all pain and stiffness were completely gone from the shoulder, and the tension that is always there in the hips and knees during quarter lotus meditation for me also dissipated completely. The whole body was enveloped in a warm, cosy feeling, and the left side of the head, in particular the places I had LED'ed, felt 'active' and very pleasant. This very pleasant state lasted for about 20 minutes. Then, towards the end of the meditation, the tension in the hips and knees gradually came back, but the shoulder/back pain was significantly reduced.

I slept through the night, and upon waking in the morning, the shoulder pain was gone.

My guess is some sort of endorphin release was triggered. Might be worthwhile for other people with aches and stiffness to try to replicate?

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 28 October 2013 - 02:39 AM.


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#1380 lourdaud

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

I'm still trying to figure that out!

Here's a thought for a relatively cheap whole-head device.

Purchase 19-21 of these IR LED arrays. They seem to be the same as the LED array inside the one popular among people here. It has a two pin power connector in the back.

Buy an adjustable headstrap such as this


I've been looking at that exact same thing (LED arrays), but the total cost was about $70 or so instead (without power).
http://www.aliexpres.../769933345.html - $0.047 ea - Free shipping
http://www.aliexpres...1261916124.html - $0.0418 ea + Free shipping
http://www.aliexpres.../505051318.html - $0,05 ea + $15.79 Shipping (to Sweden atleast), so there are a few options.



Anyone have an idea on how to power them up??


Sorry I didn't get around to answering this before.

Two people asked how to wire the 12 V LED arrays up. Here:
Design for 0.10 watts per LED. The arrays are probably meant for only 0.05 W per LED, but you can run them at a higher voltage to get MAYBE more light out of them. They all seem to have series resistors (a good design) which means you will not be able to run them very hot to get more voltage out of them, so you do not need to get the adjustable power supply. They have a light sensor (the little thing with a back-and-forth line in the the clear plastic cover) to turn off during the day. You can try blocking the cover or cutting one of the wires that lead to it, or cutting it off like I've done larger designs, at your risk of losing the array.

Powersupply watts = Volts x Amps = number LEDs x 0.10

Get 12, 24, 36, or 48 V powersupply. 12 V will be simplest and 10 amp seems to be enough for less than 30 of these arrays. Needs to have a voltage adjustment like the ebay link below to control power to LEDs.
12 V supply: Wire all 12 V arrays in parallel (look up "parallel series wiring")

12 V supply seems fine and easiest, but you can get other power supplies:
24 V supply: Wire pairs in series, then wire all pairs in parallel
36 V supply: replace word "pairs" in sentence above with "triples"
48 V supply: quartet in parallel.

Look for red glow in LEDs to know they are on.

You have to have a soldering iron, some solder, and some good wire.

http://www.ebay.com/...=item4acade596e


Thanks a lot for the info!

I can't see the power supply in your link (don't ship to where I live), would this one do as well? http://www.ebay.com/...=item5af6cbb0b4





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