10 replies to this topic

[BlueCloud]

I've been suffering from severe insomnia for the last 20 years or so. I tried pretty much everything under the sun ( including tests for sleep apnea, wich I don't have) both pharmaceutical and natural with very little success, with a few exceptions. And I really mean almost everything.. If you can name it, I have probably tried it.

So far, the only thing that have been continuously succesful in providing me with a reasonable quality sleep is the antihitamine/anticholinergics category. Namely : Diphehydramine, Doxylamine, and Cyproheptadine. I've been cycling these 3 throughout the years , while constantly trying new things at the same time. Diphenhydramine is probably what have worked the best, as it leaves less of a hangover upon waking up than the other two. Although they all have been successful , with varying degrees, in allowing me to get some kind of refreshing sleep.

After all these years of experimentation, I have now pretty much given up hope on finding something else that works as good as the antihistaminics, and now considering taking them for the rest of my life .

So : Is there any reason this would be a bad idea ? Is there any confirmed nasty consequences of using them long-term, considering that constant and daily lack of sleep also has terrible consequences on me ?

[nowayout]

You may get immune to them also eventually, which unfortunately happened to me.

Chronic dry mouth, if you get that, will prevent remineralization of the teeth via saliva, which may cause dental problems.

Edited by nowayout, 20 June 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Kompota]

Have you ever tried tricyclic / tetracyclic / atypical antidepressants like Trazodone, Amitriptyline, Remeron for sleep ? They are supposed not to exhibit anticholinergic properties unlike antihistamines. Also, the doses presribed for insomnia are much lower than those for depression.

[BlueCloud]

You may get immune to them also eventually, which unfortunately happened to me.

Chronic dry mouth, if you get that, will prevent remineralization of the teeth via saliva, which may cause dental problems.

Fortunately, I've been able to avoid getting immune to them, so far. I've been constantly cycling between those 3, and always taking days off them, even if that means having bad sleep and being exhausted the next day ( on days where i don't have anything planned )
The dry mouth, I get that sometimes, but not constantly.. I always try to take the minimum dose possible to avoid stronger anticholinergics effects..
What I'm more worried about , is some sort of secondary effects that would not show until after a few years... IF there are any...

@ Kompota : Yes , i've been thru all those , with pretty disastrous effects... Remeron : the sleepiness lasts for days , not hours, even at the smallest doses. It pretty much makes me a zombie. Amitryptiline ( wich I've been on for a short time, a long time ago ) was even worse...

Edited by BlueCloud, 20 June 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[nowayout]

You're lucky you still habe options. Even remeron does not sedate me at all and neither does amitriptylene.

Remeron is sedating for most people mainly due to its antihistaminic action. You just took a too large dose if it sedated you so long. You could cut the tablets in 4.

Edited by nowayout, 20 June 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

I'm on Trazodone, it works seems to work fairly well.

[BlueCloud]

Remeron has a very long half-life to begin with, no matter how small I cut the pill, it's still lingers on the whole day ( if not days), unless I take a dose so small it doesn't even have an effect anymore.. I sticked with it almost three months, with various dosage. It also had some side-effects I disliked even more than the antihistaminics.
In fact, I wonder if the anticholinergic aspect of those three antihistaminics is not actually part of the quality of sleep I get with them. I remember that Hydroxyzine, another sedating antihistaminic with a weaker anticholinergic action, didn't do anything close to the other three in terms of sleep quality..

Edited by BlueCloud, 21 June 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[brainslugged]

Have you looked into Etizolam? It is an short acting Benzodiazepine, and it is not strongly associated with normal benzo health concerns. Benzos used for sleep can be beneficial to overall health and are not as likely to cause dependence as when used for anxiety.

[xsiv1]

Have you found anything besides antihistamines to help you with your chronic insomnia? That was my first symptom (many years ago) of what they diagnosed as depression.

[BlueCloud]

@Brainslugged : No, never tried Etizolam... I'm not too enthusiastic about jumping into research chemicals right now, I wanna see if I exhausted all available options before.

Have you found anything besides antihistamines to help you with your chronic insomnia? That was my first symptom (many years ago) of what they diagnosed as depression.

The only other things that somewhat helped were Mirtazapine ( Remeron ) as desribed in my post above, and perhaps Bacopa. Bacopa was very inconsistent and unpredictable in my experience when it came to sleep, or just too weak. Some brands even made me depressed after a few days.
Hydroxyzine helped a bit IIRC. In fact I might try it again next time I see my doctor. But it's still an antihistamine.
So far, only that antihistamine trio mentionned in my first post have been consistently reliable thru the years..

One option I've been thinking of, is to buy a Neurofeedback machine soon. It's something I've been interested in for a long time, mostly to see if I can get myself in controlling my anxiety better ( and with perhaps positive effects on sleep as a consequence )

Edited by BlueCloud, 14 September 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Adam90]

I have a mild form of hyperhidrosis (mainly around my temples, not the rest of my body) and wanted to use anticholinergics to combat it. However, since finding out how important choline is to memory, I am afraid to use one. :(