7 replies to this topic

[Luminiferous]

I recently learned that it's important how we combine the things we eat. For example, not taking fruits during meals (correct me if I'm wrong).

I know we should limit our glucose intake. However assuming if we take take the same amount of glucose daily, will there be a difference if we take the glucose as much as possible WITH our meals or far away from meals?

For example if I eat oatmeal by itself, compared to mixing it with dates or brown sugar, will there be a difference? Note: our daily dates/brown sugar intake doesn't change, so if we eat oatmeal alone, we still eat the dates 1-2 hours later.

And which foods should and which foods shouldn't be taken with foods that are high in glucose?

I am more interested in how it affects metabolic rate or anything that is related to bodybuilding and more energy, faster way to lose fat etc.

Just trying to make a meal plan for myself.

[platypus]

Why would you want to eat dates or brown sugar?

[Luminiferous]

Dates and brown sugar were just examples. However, I do eat them both as I think dates are delicious and nutritious and brown sugar is a better alternative for white sugar.

I am a beginner in this field, and still clueless about most terms so it's hard to get my point across. But what I meant was, sugar kind of activates you sometimes (more energy), and I think (correct me if I'm wrong!) this also means that your metabolic rate is accelerated, right?

And what about this example:
if we eat tuna by itself pre workout, the protein/fat is used as energy during workouts. However, if we take tuna and dates at same time, would the glucose in dates make the tuna more inclined to be stored as fat instead of being used as fuel? In that case, would it be wiser to eat tuna and dates seperate from each other?

Edited by Luminiferous, 22 June 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Eating fruits, glucose containing foods and simple carbs will raise your immediate and post prandial blood sugar levels to levels greater than f you didn't consume them. Combining them with protein, fiber and fat will slow down their digestion and blunt the spike.

[Cris Barrows]

If you need a quick energy fix then consuming simple sugars outside of main meals will deliver energy quickly. Eating sugar and carbs with protein and fats will tend to slow glucose and hence insulin spikes slightly. Starchy foods like potatoes and bananas always take slightly longer since the chains of glucose molecules that form the starch need to be broken up.

But in general the concept of combining similar foods together for optimum nutrition has been largely discredited. Your gut walls have a wide selection of receptors for different nutrients and they have little problem selecting what they need from the nutrient mix and chime that passes by.

In terms of energy priority - i.e. what your body will use first -

1. Alcohol. This is considered a toxin and is routed to the liver for immediate oxidation. Any glucose you have absorbed will wait until all the alcohol has been removed. Note that alcohol is not a carbohydrate or a sugar.

2. Fructose. This is metabolized in a very similar way to alcohol - many of the same pathways as for alcohol.

3. Glucose. Glucose is toxic above a very narrow tolerance. You need to maintain about 5g in the blood and little more on average - about a teaspoonful. A single slice of bread is about 10g. Your body will go to extremes to maintain that steady state and where insulin is the guardian, pushing glucose into cells to be burnt for energy or triggering their conversion to triglycerides for fat storage. Note that humans are very poor at glucose storage, there will be some in the muscles for their exclusive use and some in the liver. This storage form is know as glycogen. In times of exercise the body will pull upon glycogen stores which will run out pretty quickly - often termed as "hitting the wall" when exercising. Having fruit or sugary drinks while exercising can work alongside glucogen usage. Liver glycogen can run low in a few hours anyway signalling hunger and the need to eat again, this is why on carb heavy regimens you need to eat a meal or snack every 2-4 hours. Note that fats are not used as energy while insulin levels are high. Insulin inhibits lipolysis, the breakdown of Fats (triglycerides) into free fatty acids that can be used for energy. If you want to get fat or increase your fat storage then a constant intake of high carbohydrates will always prevent fat from being used.

4. Fats. Different fats are used in different ways, much is used for body maintenance and the rest for energy if insulin levels are low enough. Fats take a longer pathway to digest so do not offer the opportunities for a quick energy fix, except for the 8 and 10 carbon saturated fats - capric and caprlic acids - these can be used for energy directly. MCT oil, palm oil, and coconut oil contain these types of fats. Fats can deliver some 9 calories per gram as opposed only 4 from glucose and around 7 from alcohol. Humans are well adapted to storage of fats for energy. Adipose tissue can hold many thousands of calories ready for energy as opposed to only a few hundred from glucose storage. Many endurance athletes are now turning to fat as their primary fuel source, but does take some adaptation. Would not work well for burst type sprinters. For our ancient human ancestors who did not have ready access to supermarkets, going for long periods without food would need plenty of fat stored to survive. A nice binge when food became available again to replace the fat. Humans are superbly well adapted to use fat as their primary fuel.

5. Protein. Protein is primarily used for body maintenance and isn't a fuel source. Protein can be used for fuel by converting specific amino acids into glucose by the process gluconeogenesis. Many do not see this as a process that should be used frequently as it appears to be inefficient although that is debated. This would occur if there was insufficient carbohydrates consumed, or you were starving and the protein from your muscles offered adequate protein.

Glucose or fats offer the primary choices of energy. If glucose is your choice, implies a high carbohydrate regimen, then be aware that it can only be used with adequate supplies of insulin. Insulin is generated by just a few cells in the pancreas. If your carbohydrate usage is high for long periods then there is a common tendency for the cells in the pancreas to become exhausted and die - you becomes diabetic. If you also consume fat alongside the glucose then since the fats cannot be used for energy (insulin inhibits lipolysis) then the triglycerides will tend to accumulate in the bloodstream, actually held in lipoproteins (LDL) where they share space with cholesterol. This tends to increases the overall number of LDL particles which represent a high risk factor for heart disease.

If you choose fat as your primary energy source with very low glucose intake then you avoid both the diabetes issues since the pancreas will not be over-utilized, and you avoid the build up of serum triglycerides and hence high LDL count since you will be burning the fats for energy, and hence avoiding CVD.

If you choose glucose and low fat, then your risk of diabetes remains high as well as obesity. Note that excess glucose converts to fat and then you are back to the high LDL count and CVD risk.

So to answer your original question - is including sugar/glucose in meals a good thing? Absolutely not, or at least keep to a minimum, say from 20g to 120g per day. A little more if your genetics and past history will tolerate it.

Edited by Cris Barrows, 22 June 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[misterE]

-- Luminiferous


Why do you think we need to limit glucose? Glucose mainly comes from starches like beans, grains and potatoes, foods humans have eaten for over 100,000 years. Glucose (along with fructose) also comes from simple-sugars like honey and HFCS. If you remove glucose from the diet (as in starch); the only fuel your body is left with is fatty-acids, fructose (which converts into fatty-acids) and amino-acids, neither of which your body likes to burn, it would much rather have its primary fuel source; glucose.




Since you deprive the brain of glucose (by avoiding starches) your body is forced to produce glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis, unfortunately the body uses vital proteins used to build muscle as glucose substrate.




Type-2 diabetics who are resistant to insulin (which normally inhibits gluconeogenesis) are constantly undergoing proteolysis (protein breakdown) in order to make glucose for the brain. Excessive gluconeogenesis is actually the cause of high-blood sugar in diabetics... it also leads to muscle wasting and reduced muscle mass commonly found in diabetics.


When you eat glucose, your body doesn't need to convert protein into glucose (since you just ate a bunch of glucose), in fact eating starch stimulates insulin-secretion, and insulin actually increases protein-synthesis (builds muscle-mass). Insulin is anabolic. Diabetics are constantly in a catabolic-state because they are resistant to the anabolic effects of insulin. The primary food that makes you secrete lots of insulin (or makes you more anabolic) are starches in particular beans, potatoes and bread. Eating lots of healthy insulin stimulating foods (not simple-sugars and junk-food) like starches, will take your metabolism from being catabolic to anabolic, which helps you build muscle-mass, sprout a full head of hair (anabolic as in anagen, catabolic as in catagen), reduce your chance of osteoporosis, type-2 diabetes, atherosclerosis ,testosterone-deficiency and impotence (all diseases and disorders caused by being in a chronic catabolic-state due to a lack of insulin’s anabolic effects.

Edited by misterE, 26 June 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Luminiferous]

Thank you for the comments, especially Cris Barrows and misterE for the detailed response.

However I still don't know how to plan my diet (which foods to combine and which not to combine).

If I understood correctly, glucose is needed for fuel and to prevent protein breakdown. And that glucose raises insulin levels, which prevents fats to be used as fuel.

So if my goal is to burn as much fat as possible and gain a lot of muscle mass through workout/diet, then how should I distance or combine certain types of foods? Foods that I usually eat are: peas, beans, tuna, brown long-grained rice, oatmeal, fruits, vegetables, almonds, dates, protein powder (whey), onions, chicken, brown spaghetti with minced beef etc.

So far what I like to do is when I wake up I juice 1 lemon, add water and olive oil and drink it. Then eat fruit, and I don't eat anything else till 2-3 hours.
When would the best time be for workout (when will I have the most energy coming from food?). Right after the fruit? Or after a meal that contains carbs like oatmeal/spaghetti? And what should I eat after workout (protein only?). And when to take the protein powder?
Also I have too much time on my hands, I am willing to workout 2-3 times a day. Maybe like muscle training in the morning and cardio in the afternoon/evening.

I appreciate you guys taking the time to help a beginner out.
If someone could direct me to pages where I can learn the difference between sugars, glucose, fructose, and sugars coming from carbs, and any learning material on differences between simple and complex carbs, saturated and non saturated fats, amino acids etc.. I would appreciate it. Thanks!

[misterE]

{1} However I still don't know how to plan my diet (which foods to combine and which not to combine).

{2} If I understood correctly, glucose is needed for fuel and to prevent protein breakdown. And that glucose raises insulin levels, which prevents fats to be used as fuel.

{3} So if my goal is to burn as much fat as possible and gain a lot of muscle mass through workout/diet, then how should I distance or combine certain types of foods?

{1} Two combinations you don’t want are fat and sugar. I base my diet on starch and avoid fats (except omega-3) and fructose as much as possible (except on a special occasion). Starch-based diets combined with moderate exercise are the only diets shown to reverse type-2 diabetes, atherosclerosis and prostate-cancer and those are some good reasons to eat this way.



{2} Correct. Starch spares both protein and fat oxidation. Thus when you eat starch and spike insulin, the body retains its protein and fat stores. However starches will not convert into fat, unlike simple-sugars.



{3} Building muscle and burning fat require two opposite metabolisms. Bodybuilders refer to this as “bulking and cutting”. In order to build muscle you must stay in positive-calorie balance (you must consume more calories than you burn). Eating more calories than you burn puts your body in an anabolic-state where the body is building; the downside to this is that the same hormones that build muscle-mass (insulin and IGF-1) also build fat-mass as well.

So after you bulk up and you gain both fat and muscle, the next step is to burn off all the fat you gained while bulking, while the newly formed muscle-mass stays behind (because the body burns fat over muscle). This is achieved with a calorie-deficit (consuming less calories than you burn).



However you can actually build muscle-mass with very little fat gain if you alter your macronutrient-ratios. For instance, in order to build muscle, you need insulin and lots of it! So you eat a 75% complex-carbohydrate diet (to stimulate lots of insulin-secretion). Next you want to gain as much muscle, with as little fat gain as possible, so eat you a high ratio of protein to fat (so the insulin produced from the starch ends up storing more protein than fat). Beans are the perfect muscle-building food because they are very high in starch and protein, yet virtually fat free.