65 replies to this topic

[niner]

So the reason for going to an every two weeks schedule was the potentially deleterious effects of too much olive oil. And the reason for ending the treatment was one of the control rats died. While intermittent treatment might indeed be better than daily dosing, there's no reason to think there's any particular advantage to stopping the treatment at 7 months, or that a declining treatment level holds any advantage.

I agree with Turnbuckle on this. We aren't really trying to duplicate Baati to the letter- If we were, then we would need to use Wistar rats, for one thing. What we are really trying to do is show significant life extension in a mammal. I think the best way to do that would be to continue dosing at some modest level throughout the life of the animal. If we had enough animals, we could experiment with different dosing strategies, which would certainly be useful information.

[Rat Fan]

ok, that's good info, glad I asked...

So, I think that I will go now a couple weeks with one dose per week, then switch to every 2 weeks

[Rat Fan]

hi everybody, I have happy news! I have acquired 2 new baby boy rats. They are Siamese/Himalayan brothers and they are just over 9 weeks old today. I got them last week and they are at another home for quarantine for another two weeks to make sure they don't bring any illnesses into my group here at home. Their names are Tucker and Calvin. Their weights as of today are - Tucker- 171g and Calvin- 161g.

I was thinking of starting them on the C60 next week, on the day that I do the others (they are getting it every two weeks now). I was wondering what you all thought about just giving the boys C60 every two weeks like everybody else, instead of more frequently at first. They are starting so young, it seems like there is no rush. Would love to get your thoughts on this.

[niner]

hi everybody, I have happy news! I have acquired 2 new baby boy rats. They are Siamese/Himalayan brothers and they are just over 9 weeks old today. I got them last week and they are at another home for quarantine for another two weeks to make sure they don't bring any illnesses into my group here at home. Their names are Tucker and Calvin. Their weights as of today are - Tucker- 171g and Calvin- 161g.

I was thinking of starting them on the C60 next week, on the day that I do the others (they are getting it every two weeks now). I was wondering what you all thought about just giving the boys C60 every two weeks like everybody else, instead of more frequently at first. They are starting so young, it seems like there is no rush. Would love to get your thoughts on this.

That's great to hear. I think that starting them at once every two weeks like the others would be fine. There are some theoretical reasons to believe that the earlier you start, the longer they'll live. This has to be balanced against the hypothetical possibility that c60 could interfere with development in some way, since they are not yet fully mature. It would actually be a service to the entire c60 community if you could test this by starting Tucker and Calvin at 10 weeks.

[VP.]

hi everybody, I have happy news! I have acquired 2 new baby boy rats. They are Siamese/Himalayan brothers and they are just over 9 weeks old today. I got them last week and they are at another home for quarantine for another two weeks to make sure they don't bring any illnesses into my group here at home. Their names are Tucker and Calvin. Their weights as of today are - Tucker- 171g and Calvin- 161g.

I was thinking of starting them on the C60 next week, on the day that I do the others (they are getting it every two weeks now). I was wondering what you all thought about just giving the boys C60 every two weeks like everybody else, instead of more frequently at first. They are starting so young, it seems like there is no rush. Would love to get your thoughts on this.

That's great to hear. I think that starting them at once every two weeks like the others would be fine. There are some theoretical reasons to believe that the earlier you start, the longer they'll live. This has to be balanced against the hypothetical possibility that c60 could interfere with development in some way, since they are not yet fully mature. It would actually be a service to the entire c60 community if you could test this by starting Tucker and Calvin at 10 weeks.

Could you give C60 to one and not the other? It would be a weak control but better then nothing.

[Rat Fan]

I think what I'll do is start Tucker at 10 weeks and start Calvin at 6 months.

[Rat Fan]

Everything is moving right along...
Today group 1 had dose 22
group 2 had dose 18
and little Tucker has had dose 4

Before the next dose I am going to weigh them again, adjust dosage for weight and probably increase dose from .5mg/kg to 1 mg/kg

Through diet restriction and exercise my two fat boys have lost a decent amount of weight but could stand to lose some more. They are at a healthier weight right now though, so that is good. They will be 2 April 26.

[Rat Fan]

Thought this would be a good time for an update... I've been continuing to give all the rats c60 every two weeks.  I've also adopted two more rats since then.  Pipsqueak, female, spayed around seven months, started c60 around seven months when I adopted her.  Also Tilty, female, unspayed, is approx a year and a half.  I also started her when I adopted her, near the same time as Pipsqueak.  Tilty was named Tilty because she has a permanent head tilt. I am pretty sure that this is due to some some of congenital issue as I was told that others in the litter were similar.  

My two original boys will be two years old this Sat.  Very exciting, one is on antibiotics right now, but it's not a big deal. They both seem pretty healthy for their age.

I'm including my excel sheet for you to see how I'm recording my info.  Page one is recording each time I dose them.  Page two is a chart of ages, start dates, etc.    c60 olive oil treatment.xls   50KB   595 downloads

[Rat Fan]

I should also note I did not end up uping the dose. I stayed at .5mg/kg (with previous wght) even after taking new weights.

[niner]

Rat Fan, you are doing a truly spectacular job! Thank you!

[AgeVivo]

Dear Rat Fan, bravo for your extraordinary work! Let us know if the rats go well, if some died, etc. It is great data.

Page one is recording each time I dose them.  Page two is a chart of ages, start dates, etc.   c60 olive oil treatment.xls

 

In order for readers to follow your experiment without going through the file I have made 2 basic images:

it is about the weights of your pets as a function of time (where we can visualize on the x axis how many times the rats were treated with c60) and as a function of age.

Note1 to readers: it is too early to analyse survival

Note2 to RatFan: if you re-weight your rats it starts to have some sense to visulalize and statistically test c60's impact on weight (though with the relatively small N only very clear effects would be statistically significant)

 

 

I have 2 questions:

1. Control group
do you think you could have a control group? If the answer is "too late for it", perhaps then a question for other potential pet science contributors: if you were to restart your experiment, would you choose to do the blind control approach? (receiving numbered olive oil solutions, some of which contain c60 and others not)?

 

2. accuracy of ages reported

In the images I have not been very precise about the ages because in your spreadsheet (2nd sheet) ages at start and DateOfBirth do not match well. You have put some asteristics at those places so obviously you know that. it would be good, for a next report, to put on the excel file what are your upper and lower estimates or the ages of your pets, and this without waiting too long, so that we can better interprete the experiment later.

 

+++!

Edited by AgeVivo, 09 June 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Rat Fan]

-It's too late for a control group for sure.  

 

-As far as the age thing... I wish that I knew the ages exactly... a lot of my rats are rescues and I rarely get to  know exactly how old they are.  I will try to put a range on there for their ages.  

 

- I am getting in a few weeks an interesting pair (M/F, neutered and spayed) of half domestic, half wild rats.  It was a case of an escaped female with got pregnant, then adopted.  I don't know that this has any value other than "hey, that's interesting", but we'll see what happens, I plan to treat them both.  I will know their exact b-days. 

 

-Weights :  I will re-weigh and adjust doses for the next treatment.  I will try to do this more often  It's easy to do, just tedious.  

[Rat Fan]

Oh, and thankfully, no deaths yet!  I have three that have turned 2 and another close behind.  My one girl that is 2 (Lucy), I don't know how much longer she will last... but her problem has been the mycoplasmosis.  Her lungs are stiff but I'm doing everything I can with antibiotics and steroids.  Genetically she's always had a disadvantage and many of her littermates have already passed from respiratory issues.  Considering that, I think she is doing pretty well.

[Kenbar]

Just want to give you a big "thank you" for the service you are doing. These types of studies are where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. How long do these fellers normally live? At what point do folks feel they are living beyond normal?

[Rat Fan]

The typical life span of domestic rats is considered two-three years. Most people consider 2+ a good run. Three is not too uncommon, but is really good. 4+ is rare but not unheard of. You need good genetics, good care, and great diet.

[Kenbar]

Thanks for the fast response. I will be following this thread with great interest...

[Rat Fan]

No problem Kenbar, I could happily talk about rats all day!

 

New weights and doses to be used for next treatment.  First, weight in kg and then dose in ( )

 

Pip  .625  (.34)

Jasper .693  (.38)

Lucy .49  (.27)

Measha  .435  (.24)

Minnie .465  (.25)

Willow .405  (.22)

Casey .475  (.26)

Mila .463 (.25)

Tucker .390 (.21)

Calvin .376 (.2)

Pipsqueak ..378 (.21)

Tilty .313  (.17)

[sofaking]

This is really cool, Rat Fan. Just wanted to let you know that more people are interested in your experiment, and your rats, and are following your progress. Thanks!

[Logic]

This is really cool, Rat Fan. Just wanted to let you know that more people are interested in your experiment, and your rats, and are following your progress. Thanks!

I second that!
Its really nice to see ones idea implemented. I wish I had more to add, but am happy to just check in here when I can.

I am off into wildest Africa again soon and will miss dropping in here to see how things are going.

[Rat Fan]

Weights and doses for today's C60

 

Pip          .61  (.33)

Jasper    .67   (.37)

Lucy       .5     (.27)

Measha  .433  (.24)

Minnie     .484  (.26)

Willow      .397  (.22)

Casey     .48    (.26)

Mila        .465   (.25)

Tucker    .422  (.23)

Calvin      .415  (.23)

Pipsqueak  .398  (.22)

Tilty           .332    (.18)

 

Treatment 1 - 7/5/14

(MALE) Oakley  .156   (.08)

(FEMALE) Sparrow  .158  (.08)

 

Treatment 2 -  7/19/2014

Oakley  .26  (.14)

Sparrow  .234  (.13)

 

 

If you remember I mentioned I was getting two halfie babies... and they are here (Oakley and Sparrow).  Both neutered and spayed at 11 weeks.  They just had their second treatment of c60 and seem to love the oil as much as the rest of them thankfully.  They do tend to be more cautious about new foods.  As you can see they are growing super fast.  

 

As far as health news.... Tilty, the girl I got when she was already a year and a half and is unspayed is showing the beginnings of a tumor down near her urethra.  An experienced friend told me that this is an inoperable place.... so we will see what happens.  It's barely noticeable, I wouldn't have even seen it if she hadn't pointed it out.  I hope that it is very slow growing.  Everybody else is ok.  Lucy is on doxy and baytril and there is a good chance she will have to be on it the rest of her life.  I heard another of her very few siblings left is on his way out as well.  The only other think mentioning is Willow and Minnie both have a strange small "lump" on a joint in one of each of their paws.  Minnie's is new and on her back foot.  Willow has this before recently and I took her to the vet for it.  It was xrayed, showed nothing to be concerned about (no infection) no noticeable inflammation.  The vet squeezed the stuff out from under her skin and said it was like clear jello.  Only reason I mention this is bc he said he's never seen anything like it before and he had treated a lot of rats.  He thinks it could possibly be arthritis but not completely sure.  I've not taken either of them back to the vet yet bc it doesn't seem to be bothering them, but might in the future.

 

 

[Rat Fan]

a pic of the halfies with one of my foster rats

[Rat Fan]

Here's a copy of my spreadsheet up to date (will post below)

 

Everybody is still living.  However, my two year old Measha went to the vet last night for what has become a regular tooth trim.  He cut her teeth way too short up top and she bled a lot.  A few hours afterwards she started dragging her body around and was showing multiple signs of stress and severe pain.  Not a surprise, but she looked so bad I didn't know if she was going to make it through the night.  I don't know if the stress caused a stroke or a mild heart attack, or maybe they squeezed her too hard while holding her for the tooth trim.  I am really upset with the vet and she won't be going back there again if she makes it through.  She still seems very weak today but the bleeding has stopped.  I'm praying there was no permanent damage to her body.

Tilty's tumor is still growing very very slowing.  Minnie and Willow's joint bumps don't seem to be growing or causing any problems.

[Rat Fan]

I don't know why I have so much trouble with this... I can't remember how to upload my file here...will do it as soon as I figure it out

[niner]

Hi Rat Fan, sorry to hear about Measha.  What a horrible vet!  I hope she's ok.  Something is broken with file uploads-  I'll look into it.

[Logic]

Thx for the update Rat Fan. 

 

Poor Measha:  That must feel like to badly rotten teeth.   ie: Extreme toothache X 2!! 
If rats experience toothache anything like I/we do poor Measha is wishing she was dead.

 

From personal experience I know that a small dab of Clove Oil to the cavity works wonders for pain.  Don't overdo it though as its not something one should swallow in large amounts.

[niner]

Rat Fan, the problem with uploads was a permissions thing.  rwac figured it out and fixed it.  To see the file attachment tool, you have to use the full editor-  Click "More Reply Options" to get access.

[Rat Fan]

Thanks niner.  I will try again.

 

Logic, yeah, she was in a lot of pain, I gave her some infant ibu.  Thankfully she seems to have made a full recovery, with the exception of her back legs seem a little weak.  I hope there was no injury to her spine or back legs... I just don't know.  She no longer seems to be in pain though.  

 

 c60 olive oil treatment.xls   72.5KB   231 downloads

I just remembered I forgot to update treatment number. I'll fix and repost.

 c60 olive oil treatment.xls   72.5KB   231 downloads

Can't believe my oldies have had 40 treatments so far!

[Mind]

Thanks for keeping up the experiment Rat Fan. I hope your rats live a ling time and in good health.

[Rat Fan]

Never did post a pic of my set up.

Also, when I give out the c60, this is what I use. I put 2 puffs in each cup. I know whose cup is whose... The c60 absorbs into the puffs, and then eat them like it's their favorite treat.

[Rat Fan]

 c60 olive oil treatment.xls   81KB   649 downloadsI have terrible news.  Two of my rats have passed away.  This past weekend Willow passed away and I found Pip passed away this morning.  More detailed info in my charts.