16 replies to this topic

[ricca91]

Guys, what's your opinion about this extract? Does it work for relieving depression and asthenia? What's the optimal dose?

I'd like to read your experiences!

[Reformed-Redan]

Better just go with a typical SSRI because the half life is short and if you take it long enough and stop the comedown is horrible.

[YOLF]

Kanna/mesembrine sounds like a potentially dangerous drug that could induce psychosis and such things. I'd stay away from it until more is known.

Doctor Mesmer, the guy who discovered it was one of those shrink magicians who liked to leave people believing in weird things for dubious purposes... Sort of like an old school Scarecrow (the masked shrink who drugged people in one of the recent batmans).

[eon]

Just because you've never seen how the founders or makers of Zoloft or other SSRIs look like, does that mean prescription meds are way more legitimate than herbal meds? I've used zoloft before and it was crap. I'm better off on herbals. While I can't find anything on Zembrin affecting serotonin (for it to cause serotonin syndrome), I think Kanna has great potential. Unfortunately I could only find Source Naturals being the sole seller of Zembrin. If anyone here know of any other brand selling Zembrin or Kanna, please let us all know. I'd prefer to try it in small dose and perhaps cheaper. I don't want to spend $20 on something just yet til I try a small sample of it first.

 

• Mesembrenone, an alkaloid from the herb Sceletium tortuosum (Kanna) is listed as a Phosphodiesterase-4_inhibitor:

 

http://en.wikipedia....ase-4_inhibitor

 

Do you have sources about your claims?

 

Also, most "founder" of drugs all look like they could be "shrink magicians". LOL. Albert Hoffman (LSD/Hydergine/etc.), Alexander Shulgin (just look him up lol), Nagai Nagayoshi (meth/amphetamine), etc. They all look like from the Wizard of Oz. 

 

Everyone looks like they are selling snake oil, til it starts working then it becomes legitimate. We're all humans. Nothing is set, everything is an experiment.

 

Kanna/mesembrine sounds like a potentially dangerous drug that could induce psychosis and such things. I'd stay away from it until more is known.

Doctor Mesmer, the guy who discovered it was one of those shrink magicians who liked to leave people believing in weird things for dubious purposes... Sort of like an old school Scarecrow (the masked shrink who drugged people in one of the recent batmans).

 

Edited by eon, 04 April 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[ceridwen]

I have a HomeCare UltraSound Device HT906. For some reason I thought 1mHz would be weaker, but it's actually stronger? That's interesting

[ceridwen]

Sorry I'm in the wrong thread

[cylon]

I believe it's suggested in the CILTEP stack as a stronger Phosphodiesterase-4 inhibitor than Artichoke extract

[Flex]

 

Just because you've never seen how the founders or makers of Zoloft or other SSRIs look like, does that mean prescription meds are way more legitimate than herbal meds? I've used zoloft before and it was crap. I'm better off on herbals. While I can't find anything on Zembrin affecting serotonin (for it to cause serotonin syndrome), I think Kanna has great potential. Unfortunately I could only find Source Naturals being the sole seller of Zembrin. If anyone here know of any other brand selling Zembrin or Kanna, please let us all know. I'd prefer to try it in small dose and perhaps cheaper. I don't want to spend $20 on something just yet til I try a small sample of it first.

 

 

 

Acute Effects of Sceletium tortuosum (Zembrin), a Dual 5-HT Reuptake and PDE4 Inhibitor, in the Human Amygdala and its Connection to the Hypothalamus

Amygdala reactivity to fearful faces under low perceptual load conditions was attenuated after a single 25 mg dose of Zembrin. Follow-up connectivity analysis on the emotion-matching task showed that amygdala–hypothalamus coupling was also reduced. These results demonstrate, for the first time, the attenuating effects of S. tortuosum on the threat circuitry of the human brain and provide supporting evidence that the dual 5-HT reuptake inhibition and PDE4 inhibition of this extract might have anxiolytic potential by attenuating subcortical threat responsivity.

http://www.nature.co...pp2013183a.html

 

Its indeed interresting form the papers, though the effects are to me a bit subtle.

I´ve bought the sole powder a few years ago and noticed a short acting stimulant effect for ~10 min.

Bought recently one bottle from Source Naturals and will try it the next week/days.

 

Look at the table:

Graphical abstract

Binding sites at which the extract Sceletium tortuosum Zembrin® (750 μg/ml) caused more than 50% inhibition of the control binding

Pharmacological actions of the South African medicinal and functional food plant Sceletium tortuosum and its principal alkaloids

http://www.sciencedi...378874111005113

 

Many receptors are affected to a good degree and even more to a lesser degree and some of them are quite "exotic".

Strong (sorted of the potency for inhibition of the control binding, ranging from 8-50%) :

GABA,5-HT trans,delta2,mu,CCK1,EP4,MT1,kappa,5-HT 2a,M4,NE trans,A2a,A3,NK2,A1,D5,5-HT 5a,M3,CCK2,PGI2,5-HT 1a,L-Ca,Cl,alpha 2,M5, D2s, Alpha-4 beta-2 nicotinic receptor

 

Weak( ranging from 50-120%):

TXA2,M1,Na,5-HT7,Bombesin,GC-R,AT2,D1,5-HT3,5-HT6,AT1,V1a,SKCa,5-HT1b,beta,1alpha1,BZD (CNS)DA trans,beta2,CB1,D4.4,NK3,BK2,ORL1,H1,GAL2,NPY1,CGRP,BZD (peri)NT1,sigma,alpha7,M2,MC4,NK1,P2Y,CCR1,H2,K(v),5-HT2c,P2X,NPY2,somstn,ETa,Etb,GAL1,VIP1,PCP,PDGF

 

according to the paper, it inhibits PDE10A + 11A to 50% at 750 Mug/ml,

whereas PDE4A+B+C were to 100% inhibited. PDE 2 to ca. 30% and PDE 3 to arround 80%

at 750 microgramm / ml.

----------------------------------------------

I guess I may get fried for this, but as a lurker I died to find something to inhibit the CB1 receptor for my own health, so I know what its like....

 

Edited by Flex, 04 April 2015 - 09:53 PM.

[Flex]

@ Eon

You could buy the 30 tablet bottle for 10 Dollars from Source Naturals or look for " KANNA Extract 20X - Sceletium tortuosum (kanna) " which seems to start from 10 Dollars as well.

It can be found on Ebay or at ethnobotanic shops like azarius or maya ethnobotanicals ( I´ve ordered some stuff a few Years ago from both)

 

http://www.ebay.com/...tuosum&_sacat=0

http://azarius.net/

https://maya-ethnobotanicals.com/

 

 

Edited by Flex, 05 April 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[eon]

Thanks Flex!

 

I wonder if the reason why no other major company is putting out a Zembrin product other than Source Naturals is because it's "psychoactive" (is it?)? I know the name Zembrin and its product process/extract/etc. is patented, which is probably why not many companies can touch it yet like that without paying some fee.

Edited by eon, 22 April 2015 - 05:29 AM.

[Jochen]

so when do you guys typically take this? I have just started to implement this in my <before bedtime> stack and I mainly uses it for the PDE4i qualities.

[Flex]

I actually try to avoid it to use before bed time because of the increase of Serotonine, my sleep is prone to it.

 

@Eon Youre welcome

No, many things are psychoactive and might act as stimulants e.g. Bodybuilding supplements like Craze(3 years ago).

As far as I know, Its actually the composition or processing method of the extract what is patented like: Ginkgo Egb761-, Gingseng Ginsana- or St.Johns wort Perika-extract vs. other extracts.

 

Edited by Flex, 22 April 2015 - 04:52 PM.

[eon]

does Zembrin then have potential to increase the chance of getting serotonin syndrome?

[Flex]

Cant say for sure. I´ve never taken high doses nor mixed it with anything else.

From my laymans opinion it should be save, if You dont take mao-a inhibitors like rhodiola, passionflower or moclobemide

but I wouldnt guarantee anything.

[Justin BoBustinBananaFanaF]

Cant say for sure. I´ve never taken high doses nor mixed it with anything else.

From my laymans opinion it should be save, if You dont take mao-a inhibitors like rhodiola, passionflower or moclobemide

but I wouldnt guarantee anything.

 

The earlier posted study

"Acute Effects of Sceletium tortuosum (Zembrin), a Dual 5-HT Reuptake and PDE4 Inhibitor, in the Human Amygdala and its Connection to the Hypothalamus"

had the conclusion that zembrin had "dual 5-HT reuptake inhibition and PDE4 inhibition".

 

I would interpret this to mean that zembrin is an SSRI (5HT is serotonin) and could cause serotonin syndrome

Edited by Justin Reiser, 07 September 2017 - 07:30 PM.

[eon]

I've been reading into 5-HT2A and was wondering if anyone here know of a compound other than psychedelic ones?

 

Read this article:

 

Rethinking serotonin could lead to a shift in psychiatric care

 

https://medicalxpres...sychiatric.html

 

I see 1 interesting comment on the article:

 

"So in other words the old "you need more serotonin to feel less depressed" was never true

(there are also SSREs like tianeptine which work by *decreasing* serotonin)"

 

[normalizing]

does anyone think this is safe to combine with either st john's wort or tianeptine because both of these are not strong enough, the herbal one being very subtle and weak and the other being very short acting etc.