24 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

I have started this thread with the objective being to discuss, decide upon and establish GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL that are to be followed and adhered to when carrying out and organizing future Group Buys within the LONGECITY community.

The intention here is that by adhering to said GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL the likelihood of the Group Buy proceeding to its conclusion smoothly and according to plan will be maximized; and it will also help to maintain good relations between everyone involved, throughout the Group Buy process.

To get the ball rolling here is my suggested first draft of said list of GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL:

PLEASE NOTE: These GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL are authored by LONGECITY Members and Registered Users, not by LONGECITY Management who have no involvement in either authoring or implementing them. As such, they are not 'official' LONGECITY forum rules, but ones created by forum members.

Whilst it is recommended that these are followed during Group Buys it should be noted that it is not mandatory that every Group Buy do so. These are simply a set of guidelines that can be followed voluntarily should the ORGANIZER and PARTICIPANTS choose to do so for any particular Group Buy.

1) The Group Buy ORGANIZER should endeavor to the best of his or her ability:

a) To ensure that the product supplied is of the correct minimum QUANTITY and PURITY.

Remember that the order placed with the manufacturer is a legally binding contract for them to supply the respective product at the agreed QUANTITY and PURITY. It is therefore their legal responsibility to do so.

If they have problems scaling up the synthesis to the ordered quantity there can always be a conversation about accepting a lesser quantity, but all of the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS should be consulted about this and agree on it before the relevant Custom Synthesis Lab are informed it is acceptable.

Furthermore, in the instance that a Custom Synthesis lab is unable to honor its commitment regards QUANTITY and/or PURITY there should always be some sort of COMPENSATION as a result; an appropriate price reduction / partial refund for example, or if the PURITY is less than specified / originally agreed then a proportionately greater QUANTITY should be supplied by the Custom Synthesis Lab such that the total overall quantity of active ingredient as per ordered is still provided.

b) Maintain proper and decent communication with all the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS throughout.

Ensure that full transparency regarding what is happening is provided at all times, post regular updates; and don’t get defensive at frustrated Group Buy PARTICIPANTS venting their frustration at you. Work as a TEAM with the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS (you are all in this together) as opposed to ‘YOU’ versus ‘THEM’.

c) Never, ever provide full payment to a CUSTOM SYNTHESIS LAB / COMPANY up front.

Sometimes paying a DEPOSIT will be required, but this should typically be no more than 10% of the order total; and should only be paid if absolutely necessary.

d) When obtaining payment from Group Buy PARTICIPANTS ensure that ALL associated costs are obtained in one go.

This will include:

• Cost of product.

• Cost of shipping bulk quantity of product to whoever is managing the measuring out of the individual participant quantities (if applicable) and the shipping to all Group Buy PARTICIPANTS.

• Total cost of shipping the individual participant quantities to all Group Buy PARTICIPANTS (N.B. A fixed cost should be agreed that covers this, which is charged to all participants).

• Any and all associated transaction fees (e.g. PAYPAL fees etc.).

• Organizational Fee (if there is any) that is to be paid to the ORGANIZER for their services.

2) Any and all major decisions affecting the Group Buy are in all instances to be decided by discussion with and majority vote by the respective Group Buy’s PARTICIPANTS.

Examples:

• The decision of which Custom Synthesis lab to use for the synthesis;

• Acceptance of any additional cost implications further to the original quote; and

• Whether or not to change supplier later down the line should problems arise with the one originally agreed upon

3) Choose to use a CUSTOM SYNTHESIS LAB / COMPANY that has a proven track record of reliability and reputability.

Do not simply opt for the cheapest quote.

4) Have the supplied product analyzed and tested by a reputable third party to confirm both that it is what it is supposed to be and its purity meets specification.

Whilst analysis via NMR SPECTROSCOPY (e.g. BRUKER) is the absolute ideal, simple confirmation of PURITY via HPLC is sufficient; and it is a LOT cheaper.

5) PARTICIPANTS in Group Buys should realize and accept that there is an element of risk involved in participating in a Group Buy.

Should things go wrong, whilst anger and frustration are understandable and in fact inevitable they should direct that anger and frustration at the right target, namely the root cause of the problem… for example, if the root cause of the problem is the SUPPLIER don’t direct your anger and frustration at the Group Buy ORGANIZER.

In the instance that a CUSTOM SYNTHESIS LAB / COMPANY is being used for a Group Buy the first time ever, everyone, including all Group Buy PARTICIPANTS, needs to accept that there will be a higher risk of things going wrong than if a company that has been used before is used (and even then success is not guaranteed).

EDIT (16th JAN 2014) - ADDED:

6) The ORGANIZER can choose to organize the Group Buy either for free or alternatively for an appropriate fee.

If the ORGANIZER wishes to charge a fee for their services they must first receive unanimous agreement from all of the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS that they can do so and regarding what amount.

EDIT (17th JAN 2014) - ADDED:

7) Before the Group Buy starts the compound of interest should be adequately researched and discussed.

To include: mechanism of action, side effects, intended application, possible interactions with other drugs, dose, stability of the compound, storage conditions, routes of administration, which leads to the amount to be ordered per each participant; as well as any patent issues.

8) Consistent active participation by all Group Buy PARTICIPANTS is encouraged.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts?

Edited by ScienceGuy, 18 January 2014 - 07:35 PM.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I miss something about the participants. With this protocol you lay all the responsibly with the one that takes the lead in the group buy. Considering it takes a lot of time, money and effort; it’s not really fair. First, people should always know there’s some risk involved. Second, people should participate actively. A laid back attitude of participants doesn’t make the group buy go smoothly. Thirdly, the one that does all the work should be able to ask a slight fee. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. Is someone wants to do it for free, okay I’m fine with that. I’m doing it for free. But if someone else wants to do all the work I also would be prepared to pay for the costs (time, effort etc.) he’s making.

[ScienceGuy]

With this protocol you lay all the responsibly with the one that takes the lead in the group buy. Considering it takes a lot of time, money and effort; it’s not really fair.

I absolutely disagree... Your observation is incorrect in that the above first draft listing very clearly evenly spreads the responsibility amongst ALL those involved, both the ORGANIZER and all the PARTICIPANTS.

Take ITEM 2 for example, namely: "2) Any and all major decisions affecting the Group Buy are in all instances to be decided by discussion with and majority vote by the respective Group Buy’s PARTICIPANTS."

By ensuring that all of the major decisions are made by all involved via majority vote, this shares the RESPONSIBILITY amongst all involved (i.e. PARTICIPANTS are equally responsible as the ORGANIZER if the respective decision doesn't work out) and hence this does NOT in fact in any respect "lay all the responsibly with the one that takes the lead in the group buy" (i.e. the ORGANIZER).

First, people should always know there’s some risk involved.

I agree; however, this is already covered by ITEM 5, namely: "PARTICIPANTS in Group Buys should realize and accept that there is an element of risk involved in participating in a Group Buy."

Second, people should participate actively. A laid back attitude of participants doesn’t make the group buy go smoothly.

Can you elaborate exactly what you mean here? We need the RULES & PROTOCOL to be clear and easy to follow... Adding something along the lines "PARTICIPANTS should endeavour to participate actively and without a laid back attitude" is a bit vague and unclear as precisely what is its meaning... can you please kindly explain what is your particular point here that you feel needs adding to the list, such that we can agree whether or not to add it and if so, word it in a clear and easy to understand manner.

Thirdly, the one that does all the work should be able to ask a slight fee. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. Is someone wants to do it for free, okay I’m fine with that. I’m doing it for free. But if someone else wants to do all the work I also would be prepared to pay for the costs (time, effort etc.) he’s making.

Excellent point. I think it would be good to add a rule that covers this as follows:

6) The ORGANIZER can choose to organize the Group Buy either for free or alternatively for an appropriate fee.

If the ORGANIZER wishes to charge a fee for their services they must first receive unanimous agreement from all PARTICIPANTS that they can do so and regarding what amount.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 16 January 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[formergenius]

Nice idea ScienceGuy! Would hate to see no more group buys.
I had an idea.. Not sure if I'm even advocating its use myself, but here it is:
Perhaps within the voting system of group buys, one could incorporate a "shareholder" system, where those who order more have more voting power?
Not sure if that's fair either, but it's just something to consider.

edit: And I think what Rumpelstiltkin's second point means (though I don't intend to speak for him), is that it would certainly smooth things out if participants had to, for example, log in and confirm their participation every *insert timespan* to assure their continued participation. In this way, one does not suddenly have a lack of funds/participants once collection of funds comes around (no unexpected "drop-outs"). It would also ensure quicker finalisation of the aforementioned voting processes, and other factors I may have overlooked may benefit as well from this.

Edited by formergenius, 16 January 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[formergenius]

I forgot: the required log-in and confirmation could have an automated e-mail invitation incorporated to make it easier to remind participants.

[xks201]

The biggest factor is to use Googletarian and not a random supplier lol

[ScienceGuy]

The biggest factor is to use Googletarian and not a random supplier lol

By no means... Please do not make the mistake of taking 1 + 1 and making 12.

For some inexplicable reason some people seem to be under the misunderstanding that my involvement with GOOGOLTARIAN is more than it actually is... namely that I have used his custom synthesis services on two occasions; and that is the full extent of my relationship with him.

I actually encourage the utilization of multiple reputable companies so as to generate healthy competition, which will facilitate keeping costs down and reliability of service and quality of product up. Furthermore, you don't want to keep all your eggs in one basket by only using one supplier, but have multiple ones at your disposal. In fact, for these reasons I strongly recommend using a different manufacturer than GOOGOLTARIAN for the next Group Buy.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 16 January 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[sparkk51]

What about the product itself? Should there be any rules regarding patents?

[Overman]

Very very well done. Thanks for all of your contributions ScienceGuy

[Multicultural Harmony]

This should be pinned.

[uralsky]

It is about time to set the rules.
Thanks to Science Guy to start this topic.
My suggestions:
- Before the group buy starts the compound of interest should be adequately researched and discussed. Including mechanism of action, side effects, intended application, possible interactions with other drugs, dose, stability of the compound, storage conditions, routes of administration, which leads to the amount to be ordered per each participant.
- After extended discussion and the substantial interest is generated: the relevant information (as above) should be summarized and put in the beginning of the topic (is it possible?) so that everyone could easily find it without scrolling through hundreds of posts.

We cannot force everyone to be active participant. There will always be a range of people, and hopefully enough activists to move the buy forward. At the end all will participate with their money.
We can however encourage active participation by declaring it as a goal of each group buy
perhaps.

[ScienceGuy]

Perhaps within the voting system of group buys, one could incorporate a "shareholder" system, where those who order more have more voting power? Not sure if that's fair either, but it's just something to consider.

Nice idea, however I feel that would complicate the administration too much... also, in most instances there has been and will likely continue to be the same quantity of product per Group Buy PARTICIPANT, given there are typically limited spaces available and limiting one designated product quantity amount per participant is really the only way to be fair to everyone else. My recommendation is that additional quantities only be offered in the event that after completing the phase of securing peoples' interest in participating in the Group Buy there are not enough takers and there is a surplus left over. Additional shares could then be offered to those already participating... In fact, it would be a good idea to add this detail to the RULES & PROTOCOL

...people should participate actively. A laid back attitude of participants doesn’t make the group buy go smoothly.

edit: And I think what Rumpelstiltkin's second point means (though I don't intend to speak for him), is that it would certainly smooth things out if participants had to, for example, log in and confirm their participation every *insert timespan* to assure their continued participation...

I think we cannot make participating actively a prerequisite; however, it would certainly be a good idea to encourage it. I will add something along those lines. Thanks for the input and suggestions both you.

[ScienceGuy]

It is about time to set the rules.
Thanks to Science Guy to start this topic.
My suggestions:
- Before the group buy starts the compound of interest should be adequately researched and discussed. Including mechanism of action, side effects, intended application, possible interactions with other drugs, dose, stability of the compound, storage conditions, routes of administration, which leads to the amount to be ordered per each participant.
- After extended discussion and the substantial interest is generated: the relevant information (as above) should be summarized and put in the beginning of the topic (is it possible?) so that everyone could easily find it without scrolling through hundreds of posts.

Both excellent suggestions.

Regards the second one, can someone please kindly confirm whether or not everyone (Registered Users and Members alike) is able to edit their initial post within a thread after a prolonged period of time? I am able to do this, but I am unsure if this applies to everyone?

We cannot force everyone to be active participant. There will always be a range of people, and hopefully enough activists to move the buy forward. At the end all will participate with their money.
We can however encourage active participation by declaring it as a goal of each group buy
perhaps.

I agree. I will add something along those lines.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 January 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[formergenius]

Glad to have sparked some ideas
Registered Users are not able to edit post after a certain timespan. I'm not sure how long it is, but I believe it's an hour? I know I can't edit the posts I made above any more.

[ScienceGuy]

What about the product itself? Should there be any rules regarding patents?

Good point. I will add something that addresses this.

[ScienceGuy]

I have chosen to reply to these posts from the BPAP thread here because this is where they are relevant...

I don't think it is anyone's place to make rules for every group buy. I think that is up to the seller and buyers.

And I don't the hysteria with suppliers who happen to come from China or Hong Kong. It's not like most nootropics you are taking aren't from China. I bet most of us got out first batches of Piracetam in powder from China. That doesn't mean 3'rd party testing from random samples should always be conducted.

Firstly, I absolutely agree it is not any ONE PERSON'S place to "make rules for every group buy" but that is not what is happening here is it?

There is a clear need to establish a set of guidelines in the spirit of maximizing the probability of future Group Buys being successful and all those involved being happy with the outcome...

It is abundantly clear that there is more than one individual who is dissatisfied with the outcome of the recent BPAP Group Buy, and understandably so.

YADAYADA you have had a tough time and have received a lot of flack which could easily have been avoided and have saved you a lot of grief if only you had handled matters differently... for example SHARING the responsibility with all the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS by fully involving them in ALL major decisions would have prevented the possibility of blame for what has gone wrong being pointed squarely in your direction (which BTW I feel to be somewhat misdirected since as I see it, these matters were beyond your control).

In my opinion, establishing some RULES & PROTOCOL, which EVERYONE is encouraged to provide input into to create TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY is a very good idea if Group Buys are to continue and move forward as POSITIVELY as possible.

And where's the HYSTERIA with suppliers who happen to come from China or Hong Kong??? WHAT hysteria?

So what does everyone else think? Do we as a FORUM COMMUNITY think establishing a set of RULES & PROTOCOL to be followed in future Group Buys or do you agree with YADAYADA and XKS201? Given there is more than one individual who seemingly disagrees with the idea, in the spirit of DEMOCRACY, I have started a POLL to decide this, so please kindly cast your vote HERE: POLL - GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL: Good idea? Or Bad Idea?

Edited by ScienceGuy, 18 January 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

I have chosen to reply to these posts from the BPAP thread here because this is where they are relevant...

I don't think it is anyone's place to make rules for every group buy. I think that is up to the seller and buyers.

And I don't the hysteria with suppliers who happen to come from China or Hong Kong. It's not like most nootropics you are taking aren't from China. I bet most of us got out first batches of Piracetam in powder from China. That doesn't mean 3'rd party testing from random samples should always be conducted.

Firstly, I absolutely agree it is not any ONE PERSON'S place to "make rules for every group buy" but that is not what is happening here is it?

There is a clear need to establish a set of guidelines in the spirit of maximizing the probability of future Group Buys being successful and all those involved being happy with the outcome...

It is abundantly clear that there is more than one individual who is dissatisfied with the outcome of the recent BPAP Group Buy, and understandably so.

YADAYADA you have had a tough time and have received a lot of flack which could easily have been avoided and have saved you a lot of grief if only you had handled matters differently... for example SHARING the responsibility with all the Group Buy PARTICIPANTS by fully involving them in ALL major decisions would have prevented the possibility of blame for what has gone wrong being pointed squarely in your direction (which BTW I feel to be somewhat misdirected since as I see it, these matters were beyond your control).

In my opinion, establishing some RULES & PROTOCOL, which EVERYONE is encouraged to provide input into to create TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY is a very good idea if Group Buys are to continue and move forward as POSITIVELY as possible.

And where's the HYSTERIA with suppliers who happen to come from China or Hong Kong??? WHAT hysteria?

So what does everyone else think? Do we as a FORUM COMMUNITY think establishing a set of RULES & PROTOCOL to be followed in future Group Buys or do you agree with YADAYADA and XKS201? Given there is more than one individual who seemingly disagrees with the idea, in the spirit of DEMOCRACY, I have started a POLL to decide this, so please kindly cast your vote HERE: POLL - GROUP BUY RULES & PROTOCOL: Good idea? Or Bad Idea?

One the one hand I agree with some rules; but, one rule too many will just confuse the whole thing. What everyone is concerned about at the end of the day is whether or not they are getting what they ordered and what is its purity. For this I would only propose one rule. That all group buys be directed to the same 3'rd party analysis lab for identification of said compound and purity from a random sample of the suppliers batch. Other than that given imperfect knowledge and nature of the whole thing I don't think any person other than yourself will implement all afformentioned rules without an escrow service. This has been mentioned before by Q did it! and he thought about having Longecity act as an intermediary for the funds and testing of compounds. I'm not sure who would be willing to take on the task of banking funds and then running 3'rd party tests on the group buy compounds; but, it is a good idea. It sure would streamline things a bit and make everything a lot less based on trust.

I personally have nothing against suppliers from HK and China as long as a 3'rd party tests are done on the compounds provided.

[Reformed-Redan]

I mean once an ecrow service is set up, we won't be limited to a person or group of people to have the group buy going. Just a thought as it seems more practical and would work better in the long run if say a person doesn't want to handle group buys anymore (like me).

[Multicultural Harmony]

A set of guidelines needs to be pinned already. Tired of reading about ppls fuck-ups.

[uralsky]

I believe this is exactly what we are talking about: a set of guidelines for successful Group buy.
It does not mean one must follow them to the letter. But if we do that make life easier for everyone.
I also like the idea that both the participants and the organizer are one team. Each member of the team is entitled for a full information about the product they receive. Merely asking for that information can not be considered a complaining or dissatisfaction.

[uralsky]

An example of a group buy going horribly wrong: " GEBR-7b Discussion and Group Buy"
Majority of participants there have got no product no money back. The organizer disappeared.
People tend to be more trustful to anything happening on Longecity. Unfortunately sometime it can end up as a simple scam.
Any advise on what can be done in this case would be appreciated.

[ScienceGuy]

One the one hand I agree with some rules; but, one rule too many will just confuse the whole thing. What everyone is concerned about at the end of the day is whether or not they are getting what they ordered and what is its purity. For this I would only propose one rule. That all group buys be directed to the same 3'rd party analysis lab for identification of said compound and purity from a random sample of the suppliers batch.

I agree that we do not want to end up with too many rules, however your proposed one rule would be insufficient and not achieve the desired outcome. What we need to do here is strike the right balance... a core set of voluntary guidelines that will properly protect both ORGANIZER and PARTICIPANTS and maximize the probability that everything proceeds smoothly to the desired conclusion, whilst maintaining good relations amongst everyone involved.

That said, I very much like your idea of using the same THIRD PARTY ANALYSIS LAB, wherein this would potentially allow for a discount on the analysis to be negotiated due to the repeat business. Unfortunately, PRICING for third party analysis varies significantly, so at some point in time somebody is going to need to carry out the exercise of SOURCING said THIRD PARTY ANALYSIS LAB by obtaining multiple quotes from numerous companies so as to find a viable, reputable and most importantly AFFORDABLE one... once this exercise has been completed, choosing to re-use the same LAB would negate the need to repeat this exercise... Like I have stated previously, it should cost HUNDREDS and NOT THOUSANDS of bucks for such ANALYSIS

Other than that given imperfect knowledge and nature of the whole thing I don't think any person other than yourself will implement all afformentioned rules without an escrow service. This has been mentioned before by Q did it! and he thought about having Longecity act as an intermediary for the funds and testing of compounds. I'm not sure who would be willing to take on the task of banking funds and then running 3'rd party tests on the group buy compounds; but, it is a good idea. It sure would streamline things a bit and make everything a lot less based on trust.

To confirm, LONGECITY MANAGEMENT will never, ever get involved with GROUP BUYS in any respect whatsoever, so let's cross out that idea immediately. The question has already been asked previously and that was essentially the response.

Regards the suggestion of setting up and ESCROW SERVICE, this is a double-edged sword with both PROS and CONS; wherein, the primary reason that it has not been done before is that it turns the Group Buy into an ADMINISTRATION NIGHTMARE... IMO there is unavoidably ALWAYS going to be an element of TRUST involved, and this is why it is vital that the person selected as Group Buy ORGANIZER has an established track record on LONGECITY of being reputable and trustworthy... I only wish I myself had more available free-time to assist in this area, but over the course of the next 6 months or so I am not going to have sufficient free time to take on organizing any further Group Buys myself personally

I personally have nothing against suppliers from HK and China as long as a 3'rd party tests are done on the compounds provided.

DITTO

Edited by ScienceGuy, 20 January 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

An example of a group buy going horribly wrong: " GEBR-7b Discussion and Group Buy"
Majority of participants there have got no product no money back. The organizer disappeared.
People tend to be more trustful to anything happening on Longecity. Unfortunately sometime it can end up as a simple scam.

For anyone who is interested HERE is the LINK to that particular thread: GEBR-7b Discussion and Group Buy

IMO this is a perfect example in itself why it is vital to establish a voluntary set of RULES & PROTOCOL guidelines for Group Buys... and to ensure that whoever is appointed as Group Buy ORGANIZER is someone who has a proven track record on LONGECITY of being reputable and trustworthy.

Any advise on what can be done in this case would be appreciated.

In this particular instance I concur with the recommendations of this fine gentleman:

You guys should just file a dispute with PayPal if you paid that way. It doesn't matter if they freeze his account, you can still get your money back if its frozen. They just subtract it from his balance and go after him if the balance becomes negative.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 20 January 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[Metagene]

Science Guy I'm sure this discussion never happened!

I will discuss shipping methods with scienceguy shortly. He seems to know how to ship it discreetly. I also have decent experience with the black market shhhhh specifically the Silk Road marketplace (Google it) so I know how they're usually packaged. Yes, it will be from USA. And it will come in powder. If you want to have it shipped faster, I can look into that as well but your total price will go up. I have already contacted the researchers, I am awaiting their response.

[ScienceGuy]

Science Guy I'm sure this discussion never happened!

I will discuss shipping methods with scienceguy shortly. He seems to know how to ship it discreetly. I also have decent experience with the black market shhhhh specifically the Silk Road marketplace (Google it) so I know how they're usually packaged. Yes, it will be from USA. And it will come in powder. If you want to have it shipped faster, I can look into that as well but your total price will go up. I have already contacted the researchers, I am awaiting their response.

You are correct sir... That discussion never happened... In fact, I had never even heard of this guy KoolK3n until the "GEBR-7b Discussion and Group Buy" thread was mentioned

Edited by ScienceGuy, 20 January 2014 - 04:24 PM.