2266 replies to this topic

[Krell]

 

 

I take it first thing in the morning with coffee before eating, along with a couple of ibuprofen and 5000iu D3.

 

 

I dont know if this is relevant to your Niagen but I have the powdered form and you mix it with water of juice. It stated NOT to use hot or warm water but does not give a reason......I wonder if the warm or hot liquid it may render it inactive?

 

And for what its worth that V02 max result will be way off, their is no way that can be calculated from anything other than you breath analysis.

By the way AV02 max reading of 40 at your age would be phenomenally good..If your true V02 max were 40, then that may be another reason you may not be feeling any benefits from NR as you may be in super fit condition and your NAD levels may be excellent already......Just a thought?

 

 

Interesting comments!

 

I take my Niagen caps with cold water, and then make a cup of coffee.  Probably 5+ minutes delay.  Just in case I will extend to 10 min.

 

In my dreams I am phenomenal, but in the real world, not so much.

Lots of geezers are passing me in races and while hiking.

 

Here is a web page that attempts to correlate VO2max with a 12 minute run.

http://www.exrx.net/.../MinuteRun.html

 

If I input 1.44 miles in 12 minutes, then the calculated VO2max is 40.5, the same calculated VO2max from my stair stepper.

That is 12/1.44=8.33 minutes per mile pace.

 

I have done 5k (3.1 miles) races at a 9 minutes/mile pace, so it is not out of the question that I could do 8.3 minutes/mile pace  for 12 minutes.

But it is definitely pushing it for me.  I will see how long I can last at a 8.3 min/mile pace on a treadmill this weekend.

This suggests to me that the stair stepper VO2max calc is on the high side, but not completely wacko.

 

My 9 min/mile pace gives a 12/9=1.33 mile distance covered in 12 minutes, and this is equivalent to a 36.6 VO2max according to the web page.

That suggests the stair stepper is about 10% high in its VO2max calculation.

[mikela]

 

I have also developed some soreness in my ankles and upper part of my feet, especially on one side, which my doctor thinks is mild tendonitis. I've never had this before and it's come on gradually over the last couple months.. I hadn't considered that it could be related to the Niagen until I read some of the recent posts about similar symptoms. Mine's not that bad and I think it's slightly better the last 10 days, so I'm not considering lowering the Niagen so far. 

 

I'm happy with the subtle effects--mostly bit more energy and skin seems in better shape--and impressed with the research so I intend to continue for the foreseeable future.

 

I don't know if it is related, however, I have had a long bout with sinusitis and haven't worked out in about 3 weeks.  Yesterday I did weights and treadmill and last night I experienced subtle charlie horses in both calves.  It didn't last long and it was not severe.  It's not the first time I have experienced it while using NR.  I am wondering now if it is related to the period following exercise.  I am 61 and have been taking 750 mg of NR first thing in the morning along with 50 mg of pterostilbene.  I will try to keep track going forward to see if there is a correlation to exercise.

Edited by mikela, 02 April 2015 - 06:56 PM.

[ironfistx]

This is my experience having dosed 250mg a day for the last 5 weeks or so.

 

I take it in the morning before eating.

 

Ther seems to be a clearing of mood and energy.  It's small but noticeable.  This is likely placebo, but if it is, it has been going on since I started.  It's like I wake up after I take them.

 

Dream recall is significantly decreased.  I usually remember my dreams clearly and in the last few weeks especially I remember very small bits.

 

Since taking it, a subtle pain in my right index finger has gotten much worse.  I have also developed seemingly the beginning of tendonitis in my shoulder, my facial muscles, and foot.  The stuff in my mouth has gone because I was eating very soft food for a whlie, but it was basically like the tendons in my jaw and temples would get very painful when I ate anything.  I ice massaged them.  Very noticeable place!  I have been doing the same for my shoulder and food because when I start t o feel soething like this I immediately begin ice massage.  In my foot it fees l like the bottom of my foot is stretching when I take a step.  None of this was there before I started.  I wonder if the piolls are making my body more likely to experience this.  I have no idea what causes it besides putting too much demand on something, but I have heard that things like this can be caused by having too little of certain substances in your body, and people said resveratrol causes it because it removes copper, so maybe this is causing something weird to happen that makes it more possible to exist.  Or it could be doing soething that makes your body more possible to experience inflamation and things that cause even a little bit turn into issues.

 

There is another beneifit I have seen, I think, but I don't want to talk about it yet because I want to see if it's actually from the niagen.

 

I am kind of bothered by the joint stuff but I don't know if that's just coincidental.  I have been having other reasons for what may be causing it, for illustration, I haven't been sleeping as much so maybe that's why I don't recall my dreams recently, and my diet has been weird so maybe that is causing the other stuff.  But it seems to all have started with the niagen.

 

I am conisdierng going down to 125mg a day and seeing if that does anything.  Maybe I will get the same benefits without any of the concerns.  And to the poster above, your xray showed inflamed tendons?

[Ms02138]

"And to the poster above, your xray showed inflamed tendons?"

 

Yes, it said there was mild to moderate inflammation in one tendon and also in a ligament. Those were just two sentences in a report mostly saying there was nothing wrong with bones, or cartilage--ruling out osteoarthritis, etc. My doctor used the phrase "tendonitis" but the report mentioned tendon and ligament with equal emphasis. Again, my pain's no big deal. I rated it a "3" on that 10-point scale  a couple weeks back when I was getting worked up for it and wold call it a 2 now. I'm just not likely to raise my 1250 mg. NR dose until it goes away and might try dropping or stopping the NR if it got really bad. I otherwise think I'm feeling better, mostly energy and focus, in the 3 1/2 months I've been on it.

[pone11]

 

For folks who have been asking for VO2max data, I have some but you probably will not be happy with its validity!

 

A few months ago, my gym got some new stair steppers (Matrix C5X ClimbMill by matrixfitness.com) and I found

a "WFI Fitness Test" setting that calculates?!? VO2max from stair climbing results without any breath analysis.  

You input age, weight and height and the stepper continually ramps up your step rate until you hit a maximum heart rate

as measured by heart rate sensors on the machine hand grips.  Here is the manufacturer's description:

My WFI test only takes about 7 minutes (not 16), as the step rate ramps up from about 40 to 100 steps per minute,

and it takes me about twice as long just to cool down.  According to their calculation, my VO2max has been

around 40.5 with a variation of -1 to +2 (units?) during the last few months, and Niagen does not seem to have had any effect.

Note that I take the Niagen about 7am and do the fitness test around 10am.

 

 

There isn't a substitute for having VCO2 and VO2 data.   The problem with your data is we don't know when you went you started to go into glycolysis and when you became fully anaerobic.   The fact that your heart cut beat at a particular speed doesn't really indicate much.

[strider]

does Resveratrol or Pterostilbene synergize better with Niagen?  

[Ms02138]

 Pterostilbene has more powerful effects on Sirt1 and stays in your body longer (Resveratrol has an extremely short half-life) so Pterostilbene seems the better choice aside from whether one's on Niagen . . . I don't think there's any evidence of them interacting differently with Niagen's effects. Gurante and his group that have a commercial Niagen out there recently use Pterostilbene.

[hamishm00]

does Resveratrol or Pterostilbene synergize better with Niagen?  

 

Noone knows.

 

I would use both.

[to age or not to age]

I am filming Lenny Guarente tomorrow up at MIT;  I will ask him

[strider]

thanks for the feedback. also, would it be beneficial or detrimental to supplement with other mitochondria enhancers like CoQ10, shilajit, TMG, l-glutamine, l-carnitine, and other amino acids?(I currently these all of these). Also take this called ATP Fuel https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

Edited by strider, 07 April 2015 - 01:40 AM.

[pone11]

thanks for the feedback. also, would it be beneficial or detrimental to supplement with other mitochondria enhancers like CoQ10, shilajit, TMG, l-glutamine, l-carnitine, and other amino acids?(I currently these all of these). Also take this called ATP Fuel https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

ATP Fuel is just a random combination of vitamins and metabolites.   Why not research each individually and do more controlled experiments.

 

NADH DOWNregulates the Krebs cycle.   Why are they including that in the formulation?

 

What is "NT Factor" their "proprietary" ingredient?   I wouldn't want to take a black box.

 

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine), and half of it is useful (e.g., magnesium).    Again, I would just take things individually and that lets you withdraw and adjust dose on individual supplements.  It makes for much better testing.

[ceridwen]

Not too happy about the beef gelatine capsule either. It Will lose all vegetarian clientele and thanks makes me feel that not much effort or thought have been put into the rest of the ingredients.

[The_Next_LX]

 

thanks for the feedback. also, would it be beneficial or detrimental to supplement with other mitochondria enhancers like CoQ10, shilajit, TMG, l-glutamine, l-carnitine, and other amino acids?(I currently these all of these). Also take this called ATP Fuel https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

ATP Fuel is just a random combination of vitamins and metabolites.   Why not research each individually and do more controlled experiments.

 

NADH DOWNregulates the Krebs cycle.   Why are they including that in the formulation?

 

What is "NT Factor" their "proprietary" ingredient?   I wouldn't want to take a black box.

 

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine), and half of it is useful (e.g., magnesium).    Again, I would just take things individually and that lets you withdraw and adjust dose on individual supplements.  It makes for much better testing.

 

 

What is "NT Factor" their "proprietary" ingredient?   I wouldn't want to take a black box.

 

 

4. What are the components of NT Factor Maximum Potency™? It is a patent pending phospholipid delivery system. The composition is: phosphoglycolipids (polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine, glycolipids and other polyunsaturated phosphatidyl nutrients), bifido and lactobacillus bacterium (freeze-dried and microencapsulated in a state of suspended animation with the potential to form healthy microflora colonies) and growth media (foods and bacteria growth factors to support microflora colonies including rice bran extract, arginine, beet root fiber, black strap molasses, glycine, para-amino benzoate, leek, pantethine (bifido growth factor), taurine, garlic, calcium borogluconate, potassium citrate, spirulina, bromelain, natural vitamin E, calcium ascorbate, alpha-lipoic acid, oligosaccharides, B-6, niacinamide, riboflavin, inositol, niacin, calcium pantothenate, thiamin, chromium picolinate). 

 

 

https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

[Asor]

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine),

 

 

what's wrong with CoQ10?
 

[pone11]

 

4. What are the components of NT Factor Maximum Potency™? It is a patent pending phospholipid delivery system. The composition is: phosphoglycolipids (polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine, glycolipids and other polyunsaturated phosphatidyl nutrients), bifido and lactobacillus bacterium (freeze-dried and microencapsulated in a state of suspended animation with the potential to form healthy microflora colonies) and growth media (foods and bacteria growth factors to support microflora colonies including rice bran extract, arginine, beet root fiber, black strap molasses, glycine, para-amino benzoate, leek, pantethine (bifido growth factor), taurine, garlic, calcium borogluconate, potassium citrate, spirulina, bromelain, natural vitamin E, calcium ascorbate, alpha-lipoic acid, oligosaccharides, B-6, niacinamide, riboflavin, inositol, niacin, calcium pantothenate, thiamin, chromium picolinate). 

 

 

https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

 

So phospholipids combined with prebiotics?   Is there even one study showing those two should be combined for any specific purpose?

 

The whole supplement looks like a Frankenstein's monster:  it's just a random compilation of ingredients.

 

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine),

 

what's wrong with CoQ10?

 

 

In general nothing.   With me, it appears to cause some unpleasant stimulative effect that does not result in useful energy.

[ironfistx]

Probably I figured that nicotinamide riboside was causing some of the effects I was experiencing and I went down to 125mg a few days ago and took none the last day and this morning.  When I went down to 125mg my dreams started becoming more clear.  Last night was evenfresher in my memoryu.

 

For the other repky, I didn't know tendons showed up on xray.

[Ms02138]

For the other repky, I didn't know tendons showed up on xray.

I didn't either. When I Google "x-ray tendon," oddly some pages come up saying tendons don't show up on x-ray, but others come up showing x-rays with tendons labeled by arrows on them (always more transparent than the bones in the images). When you Google image the same phrase, it's all x-ray images with labeled tendons I didn't see my own x-ray; my doctor just called the next day with that sentence I quoted about tendon and ligament (the latter also is technically very dense soft tissue).

For the other repky, I didn't know tendons showed up on xray.

I didn't either. When I Google "x-ray tendon," oddly some pages come up saying tendons don't show up on x-ray, but others come up showing x-rays with tendons labeled by arrows on them (always more transparent than the bones in the images). When you Google image the same phrase, it's all x-ray images with labeled tendons. I didn't see my own x-ray; my doctor just called the next day with that sentence I quoted about tendon and ligament (the latter also is technically very dense soft tissue).

[strider]

 

thanks for the feedback. also, would it be beneficial or detrimental to supplement with other mitochondria enhancers like CoQ10, shilajit, TMG, l-glutamine, l-carnitine, and other amino acids?(I currently these all of these). Also take this called ATP Fuel https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

ATP Fuel is just a random combination of vitamins and metabolites.   Why not research each individually and do more controlled experiments.

 

NADH DOWNregulates the Krebs cycle.   Why are they including that in the formulation?

 

What is "NT Factor" their "proprietary" ingredient?   I wouldn't want to take a black box.

 

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine), and half of it is useful (e.g., magnesium).    Again, I would just take things individually and that lets you withdraw and adjust doseon individual supplements.  It makes for much better testing.

 

 

ATP Fuel is what my dr recommended(told her about my chronic fatigue. I havent seen a significant benefit from taking it. are you saying this formulation, as it has NADH, would not be beneficial to take? and should cease taking it?

 

[pone11]

 

 

thanks for the feedback. also, would it be beneficial or detrimental to supplement with other mitochondria enhancers like CoQ10, shilajit, TMG, l-glutamine, l-carnitine, and other amino acids?(I currently these all of these). Also take this called ATP Fuel https://www.research...cfm?code=CRN130

 

ATP Fuel is just a random combination of vitamins and metabolites.   Why not research each individually and do more controlled experiments.

 

NADH DOWNregulates the Krebs cycle.   Why are they including that in the formulation?

 

What is "NT Factor" their "proprietary" ingredient?   I wouldn't want to take a black box.

 

Looking at the list of other ingredients, about half of that stuff makes me feel just bad (e.g., CoQ10, Tyrosine), and half of it is useful (e.g., magnesium).    Again, I would just take things individually and that lets you withdraw and adjust doseon individual supplements.  It makes for much better testing.

 

 

ATP Fuel is what my dr recommended(told her about my chronic fatigue. I havent seen a significant benefit from taking it. are you saying this formulation, as it has NADH, would not be beneficial to take? and should cease taking it?

 

 

I would take individual supplements and try to evaluate effects of each individually.  Don't add them all at once.

[ironfistx]

If you are having joint pain what brand of NR are you dosing?

[Ms02138]

If you are having joint pain what brand of NR are you dosing?

At first, in mid-December, I tried both Live Cell Research and HPN's brands. By Jan, I was using just Live Cell Research. I assume both brands are reliable but I was dosing 1250 mg. sublingually and I found HPN's fillers more voluminous and grittier. I know they make a sublingual powder now, but that has fillers designed to taste good which I don't need, isn't any cheaper and would require measuring. 

The tendonitis or whatever it is getting slowly better without stopping the Niagen--though it has stopped me from raising it to 2000 mg yet. I'm still agnostic as to whether the Niagen caused it. That hadn't occurred to me until I saw several other posts here describing something very similar in feet/ankles. And as you're implying yeah possibly the fillers could be a cause though Id think they'd be selected to be pretty inert.

[Brainfart]

http://www.scienceda...50423124818.htm

 

Interesting information regarding SIRT1 in the bottom of the above article.

 

 

[Vastmandana]

As all sellers get their NR from a single source, brand is irrelevant

As to joint pain, I've been taking roughly 1g/day for 7 or 8 months and at 64 my aches and pains have significantly diminished. Navigating stairs, hillsides, boulders are all easier.

[SMichelle28]

http://www.scienceda...50423124818.htm

Interesting information regarding SIRT1 in the bottom of the above article.

I haven't posted here in a while because I stopped using NR. As I already mentioned before, I am currently studying nutrition and I started researching different diets and discovered that the body functions better using fat... So I restricted carbs and increased the fat intake. It's called a ketogenic diet. Once I made that change, the effect of NR seemed no different than what my dietary change was causing and felt a decreased desire to use NR. I decided to stop taking NR to see how my body responded to the diet alone and I have continued to have the same health improvements as NR was causing and more.

When I saw this article I decided to post about this change. Because I think high fat makes the body think that it is in more of a survival mode, like calorie restriction which is known to increase longevity. I don't really get hungry anymore and have no food cravings. It also seems to have an interesting effect on the brain... My mood is even most of the time and I am much less stressed. I did experience some of this on NR but not to this extreme. I though about taking NR consistently again for a while to see if the combo of the 2 created more improvement or not.

I know this response isn't completely on topic and all I can give you is my personal experience; but since we are all interested in longevity I figured I would share my experience. I have nothing against NR.... It lead me here, but I have always wanted to find an answer in food and not a supplement.

[Logic]

 

If you are having joint pain what brand of NR are you dosing?

At first, in mid-December, I tried both Live Cell Research and HPN's brands. By Jan, I was using just Live Cell Research. I assume both brands are reliable but I was dosing 1250 mg. sublingually and I found HPN's fillers more voluminous and grittier. I know they make a sublingual powder now, but that has fillers designed to taste good which I don't need, isn't any cheaper and would require measuring. 

The tendonitis or whatever it is getting slowly better without stopping the Niagen--though it has stopped me from raising it to 2000 mg yet. I'm still agnostic as to whether the Niagen caused it. That hadn't occurred to me until I saw several other posts here describing something very similar in feet/ankles. And as you're implying yeah possibly the fillers could be a cause though Id think they'd be selected to be pretty inert.

 

 

I have a half baked theory that a pathogen that is a NAD+ (or related) auxotroph is resident but benign in some people until they increase their levels of NAD+  or Nam or something along those lines.
The pathogen then has more of what it needs to 'go big' and attacks tendons.

 

The Leishmania parasite is (contracted from sandfly bites) is sometimes mentioned in relation to tendon issues and assimilates NAD+ precursors (nicotinamide, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide riboside) from its host.

http://www.longecity...n-by-pathogens/

I note that some resveratrol users had similar issues, which were ameliorated by vit D.
I think the reason D worked  when taking Resv is:

Synergistic induction of human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide gene expression by vitamin D and stilbenoids.

"...We discovered that two stilbenoids, resveratrol and pterostilbene, induced CAMP promoter-luciferase expression. Synergistic activation was observed when either stilbenoid was combined with 1α,25(OH)2 D3. Both stilbenoids increased CAMP mRNA and protein levels in the monocyte cell line U937 and synergy was observed in both U937 and the keratinocyte cell line, HaCaT. Inhibition of resveratrol targets sirtuin-1, cyclic AMP production and the c-Jun N-terminal, phosphoinositide 3 and AMP-activated kinases did not block induction of CAMP by resveratrol or synergy with 1α,25(OH)2 D3. Nevertheless, inhibition of the extracellular signal regulated 1/2 and p38 mitogen-activated protein kinases, increased CAMP gene expression in combination with 1α,25(OH)2 D3 suggesting that inhibition of these kinases by resveratrol may explain, in part, its synergy with vitamin D..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24039193

 

So those taking the NR with Pterostilbene (or/and resveratrol) in it can give some vit D a try.

 

Candida glabrata probably doesn't cause tendon issues, but the Candida species is generally a nasty, biofilm forming, hangover causing, cancer associated fungus.

 

More joining the dots:

In Vitro and In Vivo Activities of Pterostilbene against Candida albicans Biofilms

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4023736/

 

Did the scientists know this and add Pterostilbene to:

1. Keep Candida under control
2. And increase NAD+ by eliminating this auxotroph in the process!?

Hmmmm...!??  

 

Hopefully someone else here will do a bit of digging on this and keep joining the dots...?

[Logic]

Infection with Leishmania amazonensis upregulates purinergic receptor expression and induces host-cell susceptibility to UTP-mediated apoptosis

"...Uridine nucleotides also induced dose-dependent apoptosis of macrophages and production of ROI and RNI only in infected macrophages..."

http://www.longecity...ine-dha/page-24

Edited by Logic, 25 April 2015 - 01:40 AM.

[Bryan_S]

As all sellers get their NR from a single source, brand is irrelevant

As to joint pain, I've been taking roughly 1g/day for 7 or 8 months and at 64 my aches and pains have significantly diminished. Navigating stairs, hillsides, boulders are all easier.

 

I got on the (NR) path specifically for relief from my joint pain and inflammation. 458 days and counting. Currently taking 1000mg per day and have resumed my old activities.

[Logic]

To 'Off Toprick':

 

If NR is increasing NAD+ or Nam or extracellular NamPT or something that a normally dormant pathogen requires to proliferate and said pathogen has an affinity for and causes inflammation of tendons;  then finding and eliminating it will solve the issue some people are experiencing with NR.

Resveratrol works in a similar way to NR and some (infected??) people are reporting the same issues as here.

Or are you saying that tendon inflammation and pain is not one of the issues being experienced by some NR users?

Perhaps finding the underlying cause for said tendon issues  is somewhat off topic.  If you can think of a more relevant thread on this forum for such a topic; I'm all ears! 

 

Is the information that:

Candida may use up the extra NAD+ etc you are getting from NR to proliferate and cause untold health issues and deprive you of your dearly acquired extra NAD+ in the process irrelevant? 

Please post why, in your 'esteemed opinion', you think so.

(But you aren't going to reply.  You are going to remain an anonymous asshole  and just going to click on 'off topic' or similar.)

That said, I think its more a case of you not having enough brain power to see the relevance of my 2 previous posts.  

(I probably lost you at the word 'Auxotroph')

Maybe I should have restricted my post to single syllable words and simple sentences?

' Vit-a-min D with Tero-stil-bene and Res-vera-trol fix-um ten-don, may-be!'

'Uri-dine fix-um ten-don, may-be!'

Is that better!?

 

I am sure that should something along these lines be found, that fixes the problem; you will be all over it and bragging to anyone who will listen (or pretend to) about how clever you are.

  

 

Edited by Logic, 29 April 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[jnsnfl]

My understanding is this thread is about use/usage/consumption of Niagen (Nicotinamide Riboside/NR) as a mitochondrial intergration or supplementation source for improving cellular activity resulting in a regenerative response in tissue.  Is that right?

 

The reason I ask is I'm considering the use of Niagen, and only this product for only this purpose and I have no other reason than selfish outlook to simply extend my life span.  What I've followed in cell-biology research are methods and means of gene-triggering that can dramatically excent tissue regeneration processes by what would equate to eons.  An example was the earth-worm study that changed the lifespan by the equivalent of 500 to 1000 yrs.

 

So my question is with respect to all posts, where there are so many mixology methods being discussed, does the Niagen only perform under heavy dosing and only when combined with a combination of balancing triggers? 

 

I'm considering starting a regimen specifically under controls of diet and limited supplements (my typical intake) but before I do, I'd like to have some reference to product independence.  

 

Ideas or instructions.. or show me the door...

 

[midas]

My understanding is this thread is about use/usage/consumption of Niagen (Nicotinamide Riboside/NR) as a mitochondrial intergration or supplementation source for improving cellular activity resulting in a regenerative response in tissue.  Is that right?

 

The reason I ask is I'm considering the use of Niagen, and only this product for only this purpose and I have no other reason than selfish outlook to simply extend my life span.  What I've followed in cell-biology research are methods and means of gene-triggering that can dramatically excent tissue regeneration processes by what would equate to eons.  An example was the earth-worm study that changed the lifespan by the equivalent of 500 to 1000 yrs.

 

So my question is with respect to all posts, where there are so many mixology methods being discussed, does the Niagen only perform under heavy dosing and only when combined with a combination of balancing triggers? 

 

I'm considering starting a regimen specifically under controls of diet and limited supplements (my typical intake) but before I do, I'd like to have some reference to product independence.  

 

Ideas or instructions.. or show me the door...

 

Interesting thread here with lots of links and info on NR in case you have not seen it.... http://www.longecity...ws-and-updates/