210 replies to this topic

[smithx]

I have been looking at C60 Olive Oil suppliers and am not sure which one to go with. Here's a summary of what I found so far.

 

SES:

SES has their own C60OO, which is made using their 99.95% C60. (https://sesres.com/C60-olive-oil.asp)

Normally one would think this would be a great product, because it's made by the manufacturer of the C60 using their purest product, but I spoke with them and I have doubts. First of all, they use ultrasound sonication to get the C60 to dissolve faster. I've previously read here that this may not form the same adducts we are looking for. Secondly, they filter using a 5 micron filter, and do see a lot of undissolved solids on the filter paper. This implies that a lot of clumps are getting through their process.

 

http://www.carbon60oliveoil.com

These guys posted here back in the day and said they were following Baati's protocol, including centrifugation and pressurized filtering with a 0.22 micron filter. This all sounds great, but they no longer state any of that on their website, they have no listed email address, and when I tried emailing them using an email address I found on their Facebook page, they didn't reply (after 2 weeks). So without verification, I have no idea what their current protocol is.

 

Vaughter Wellness

Vaugther has been a sometimes controversial participant here, and is probably one of the largest providers of C60OO (http://c60antiaging.com/). On the face of it, Vaugther's product should be fine because she says they get it to dissolve quickly by making a very fine powder and that they use the 0.22 micron filtering. On the other hand, she's trying for a higher concentration of C60OO than others get, and this makes me leery. I would like to know if there is detectable C60 on the filter after filtration because ideally there shouldn't be: that would mean it had all dissolved. I would prefer a slightly lower C60 concentration with no clumps, because the clumps are what have been shown, in some studies, to cause damage.

 

http://buckylabs.com/process.shtml

I found out about Buckylabs from Vaugther's site, where she disparages them as making the product in a kitchen. Again, they seem to be good given that they say they are using the 99.95% C60, stirring for 2 weeks and vacuum filtering. But what about that centrifuge? They claim to centrifuge each batch, but the machine they show uses tiny 1.5ml tubes, which makes me doubt they can really spin each batch. By the way, they have a video on their site of centrifugation which shows that it does actually work (although some people here had calculated that it shouldn't work at all). In their video, they show some undissolved C60 at the bottom of the centrifuge tubes.

 

Thoughts? Other providers? I know I could make this at home but I'm not ready to set that up yet and I would rather not be grinding potentially toxic C60 dust in my kitchen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by smithx, 02 June 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[Matman32]

Good subject! I've only ordered a bottle from Vaughtner, so I can't compare. It seems pretty uniform to the eye, but the color wasn't purple like it is apparently supposed to be. Is that common to all suppliers?

[niner]

Centrifugation is unnecessary. After filtration through a .22 um filter, 5000g's isn't going to do squat to the remaining particles. Someone here posted a pretty careful calculation using the appropriate fluid dynamic formulae, and determined that it would take on the order of a million g's to pull down such small particles in a fluid of the viscosity of olive oil. In the video interview that Anthony Loera (c60.net?) did with Fathi Moussa, Prof. Moussa said that centrifugation is not needed. I suspect that it was done to avoid issues with reviewers.

It's normal to see particles on the filter- that shows that it's doing its job. In my experience, a little bit of the starting material just doesn't react for whatever reason.

I'm concerned about the air sensitivity of c6O. Dry c6O exposed to air will form epoxides on the surface, and grinding or micronizing would only make this problem worse unless it's done in an inert atmosphere or the kinetics are slower than I think they are. I'd prefer to see a manufacturing process that minimizes exposure to oxygen unless they can demonstrate that whatever process they're using is good. That would require the manufacturers to expend some significant resources to determine the molecular structure of the active agent or agents. There's a lot we don't know for sure; instead we rely on reasonable assumptions.

It's about time that someone developed some metrics for c6Ooo quality. That's not a simple problem. It's the sort of thing that the pharmaceutical industry would do as a matter of course, and the supplement industry is pretty shaky on. If one of the major vendors were to do that, it would be a large selling point in my book.

At the moment, I recommend c60oliveoil.com (oops!) www.carbon60oliveoil.com.   Product quality and service have been good in my experience. They seem very professional, and are "all in" on c6Ooo. It's their only product.

 

Edit:  fixed wrong website name.

Edited by niner, 03 June 2014 - 08:57 PM.

[smithx]

Centrifugation is unnecessary. After filtration through a .22 um filter, 5000g's isn't going to do squat to the remaining particles. Someone here posted a pretty careful calculation using the appropriate fluid dynamic formulae, and determined that it would take on the order of a million g's to pull down such small particles in a fluid of the viscosity of olive oil. In the video interview that Anthony Loera (c60.net?) did with Fathi Moussa, Prof. Moussa said that centrifugation is not needed. I suspect that it was done to avoid issues with reviewers.

 

At the moment, I recommend c60oliveoil.com. Product quality and service have been good in my experience. They seem very professional, and are "all in" on c6Ooo. It's their only product.

 

The company you recommend is the same as buckylabs.com. They not only claim to centrifuge their product, which seems rather doubtful since a full rotor load in the centrifuge they have would be only 18ml, but also have a video showing that the centrifugation works and that particles end up on the bottom of the tubes.

 

Since they appear to be untruthful about either or both of those two points, I don't know how they can be trusted regarding their other points. 

[niner]

 

Centrifugation is unnecessary. After filtration through a .22 um filter, 5000g's isn't going to do squat to the remaining particles. Someone here posted a pretty careful calculation using the appropriate fluid dynamic formulae, and determined that it would take on the order of a million g's to pull down such small particles in a fluid of the viscosity of olive oil. In the video interview that Anthony Loera (c60.net?) did with Fathi Moussa, Prof. Moussa said that centrifugation is not needed. I suspect that it was done to avoid issues with reviewers.

 

At the moment, I recommend c60oliveoil.com. Product quality and service have been good in my experience. They seem very professional, and are "all in" on c6Ooo. It's their only product.

 

The company you recommend is the same as buckylabs.com. They not only claim to centrifuge their product, which seems rather doubtful since a full rotor load in the centrifuge they have would be only 18ml, but also have a video showing that the centrifugation works and that particles end up on the bottom of the tubes.

 

Since they appear to be untruthful about either or both of those two points, I don't know how they can be trusted regarding their other points. 

 

 

Sorry smithx, my mistake.  I meant carbon60oliveoil.com!  It's unfortunate that they chose that name instead of c60, but they got into the business before there was much online discussion.  They should have bought the c60oliveoil name.  Probably sorry they didn't.

 

[Adamzski]

I would trust the VA stuff, the others especially buckylabs look shakey.

 

If there is any questions about the product or problems she replies here, cant see any reason to go anywhere else other than shipping time

[sthira]

I know I could make this at home but I'm not ready to set that up yet and I would rather not be grinding potentially toxic C60 dust in my kitchen.  

Making it yourself is pretty cheap, clean and easy. And you don't really need to grind it.

[smithx]

Sorry smithx, my mistake.  I meant carbon60oliveoil.com!  It's unfortunate that they chose that name instead of c60, but they got into the business before there was much online discussion.  They should have bought the c60oliveoil name.  Probably sorry they didn't.

 

Carbon60oliveoil.com are the ones who are not replying to emails and no longer have any statement on their site about how they prepare the product or what purity of C60 they use. So I'm not feeling very comfortable about them either until they start communicating. 

[Razor444]

In the video interview that Anthony Loera (c60.net?) did with Fathi Moussa, Prof. Moussa said that centrifugation is not needed. I suspect that it was done to avoid issues with reviewers.

 

Currently watching the vid!

 

Fathi Moussa went further, and stipulated there's no need to filter the C60. To quote:

 

"For scientific reasons we need to filtered [sic] it; to know the exact dose that we we administer, because C60 is soluble in oil.

 

But, if someone give [sic] it to an animal by himself, is not necessary to filter it because the C60 crystals will be eliminated and what will be absorbed is only the soluble part."

[Razor444]

I'm concerned about the air sensitivity of c6O. Dry c6O exposed to air will form epoxides on the surface, and grinding or micronizing would only make this problem worse unless it's done in an inert atmosphere or the kinetics are slower than I think they are. I'd prefer to see a manufacturing process that minimizes exposure to oxygen unless they can demonstrate that whatever process they're using is good. That would require the manufacturers to expend some significant resources to determine the molecular structure of the active agent or agents. There's a lot we don't know for sure; instead we rely on reasonable assumptions.

 

From the video, Fathi expressed concern about UV exposure. Quote below.

 

Do you have any references indicating that air exposure is problematic?

 

"About the skin: an American journal already asked me this question couple years ago, and I told them that there is a little danger because when the C60 is stimulated by the visible UVs (light), it produces singular oxygen and that can be dangerous.

 

I know that in creams, they put a lot of other antioxidants to mix with the C60, but if the cream became old and the antioxidants are deteriorated, I think that the result can be Toxic [sic] for the skin."

[Turnbuckle]

 

I know I could make this at home but I'm not ready to set that up yet and I would rather not be grinding potentially toxic C60 dust in my kitchen.  

Making it yourself is pretty cheap, clean and easy. And you don't really need to grind it.

 

 

Grinding it is the easiest step and greatly shortens the dissolution time.

 

BTW, excellent thread starter, smithx. 

[mikey]

 

Sorry smithx, my mistake.  I meant carbon60oliveoil.com!  It's unfortunate that they chose that name instead of c60, but they got into the business before there was much online discussion.  They should have bought the c60oliveoil name.  Probably sorry they didn't.

 

Carbon60oliveoil.com are the ones who are not replying to emails and no longer have any statement on their site about how they prepare the product or what purity of C60 they use. So I'm not feeling very comfortable about them either until they start communicating. 

 

 

It is not exactly correct to say that carbon60oliveoil.com no longer has a statement on their site about how they prepare the product, although they do not specify the purity of the SES C60.

 

Tom Martin describes how they make C60oo at carbon60oliveoil.com at: http://www.carbon60o...ction-facility/

 

"We use purified carbon 60 from SES Research

We source the finest extra virgin olive oil
Our product is mixed for two weeks, centrifuged, and sterile filtered."

I agree with niner as I, too, have found his product to produce noticeable results, as I have taken 7 - 9 mg every morning since August, 2012. At a party tonight a 25-year old guessed that I was 40. This is interesting, since I was being guessed, consistently, at mid-40's in 2011.

Although now I see that Vaughter is undercutting his prices, I might order from her.

But she's fudging a bit, as she says, "This product is prepared exactly the same as the product used in the famous rat longevity study." It isn't though. It's made at .9 mg/ml, where the study made it at .8 mg/ml. just to pick a nit.

[smithx]

Good point Mikey. "sterile filter" would have to be under 0.3micron, so that checks out. What's missing, and what I was referring to to are these points:

 

- Purity of C60 used

- Is it mixed in the dark?

- Centrifuged at how many Gs for how long?

 

The other thing I was disappointed in is that it says:

"Please browse the rest of our website and feel free to send us an email if you have any questions."

but I was unable to find an email anywhere on their site, and when I found one on their Facebook page and wrote to them, they failed to respond.

 

But they may be the best option after all, particularly if Niner is correct in his concerns about Vaughter's micronization process.

 

 

 

[mikey]

Good point Mikey. "sterile filter" would have to be under 0.3micron, so that checks out. What's missing, and what I was referring to to are these points:

 

- Purity of C60 used

- Is it mixed in the dark?

- Centrifuged at how many Gs for how long?

 

The other thing I was disappointed in is that it says:

"Please browse the rest of our website and feel free to send us an email if you have any questions."

but I was unable to find an email anywhere on their site, and when I found one on their Facebook page and wrote to them, they failed to respond.

 

But they may be the best option after all, particularly if Niner is correct in his concerns about Vaughter's micronization process.

 

 

 

 

I don't differ with you on the points you make, smithx.

 

While Tom's email address, tom@carbon60oliveoil.com, was on his site early on, it is now nowhere to be seen.

Contact will only happen by sending questions via - http://www.carbon60o...privacy-policy/

 

And you're right. I emailed him about two months ago with a question about purity and received no reply.

 

He is, however, consistently quick to ship an order.

 

And I've detected no changes in his product, except that the cheap paper label and packaging have been upgraded to a shiny metallic label and individual boxes with thick plastic envelopes encasing each bottle of C60oo, which, to me, seems to be a waste of cardboard and plastic. A poor sense of ecology.

 

I found that Vaughter's price is significantly better, but seeing niner's concern about her process I'm not sure that I want to order from her. However, I think that I will just to see if I can taste a difference.

 

I am trusting that what he said in the beginning about how he made it - exactly as it was made in the study - remains the same, because my time is more precious than spending money buying it.

[hav]

 

Centrifugation is unnecessary. After filtration through a .22 um filter, 5000g's isn't going to do squat to the remaining particles. Someone here posted a pretty careful calculation using the appropriate fluid dynamic formulae, and determined that it would take on the order of a million g's to pull down such small particles in a fluid of the viscosity of olive oil. In the video interview that Anthony Loera (c60.net?) did with Fathi Moussa, Prof. Moussa said that centrifugation is not needed. I suspect that it was done to avoid issues with reviewers.

 

At the moment, I recommend c60oliveoil.com. Product quality and service have been good in my experience. They seem very professional, and are "all in" on c6Ooo. It's their only product.

 

The company you recommend is the same as buckylabs.com. They not only claim to centrifuge their product, which seems rather doubtful since a full rotor load in the centrifuge they have would be only 18ml, but also have a video showing that the centrifugation works and that particles end up on the bottom of the tubes.

 

Since they appear to be untruthful about either or both of those two points, I don't know how they can be trusted regarding their other points. 

 

 

Here's the post and photo on his facebook page about his Sorvall SS-3 centrifuge which he claims has a capacity of 1.5 liters with an upgraded gsa rotor:

 

https://www.facebook...31931497&type=1

 

Looks like the gsa rotor manual specifies its a six bottle setup with 250 ml per bottle.  There's also some info in there about how to calculate sedimentation times which indicates that more viscus liquids take longer.  In my mind the proof of whether its possible to remove any undissolved material at a given number of g's over a given time period would be whether any sediment is observed at the bottom of the bottles after centrifuging a previously filtered mix.  I know I didn't get any sediment after 4 hours at 1790 g's after pre filtering. 

 

Howard

[smithx]

Thanks for the info. The company with the too-tiny centrifuge was Buckylabs: the one you posted is carbon60oliveoil.com, whom I did end up ordering from.

 

 

[hav]

Wow, I didn't realize that c60oliveoil.com was a different site from carbon60oliveoil.com .  Looks like the c60oliveoil.com domain was created over a year later than the other and the only thing it seems to be doing is redirecting the unwary to buckylabs.com .

 

Howard

 

[mikey]

Good point Mikey. "sterile filter" would have to be under 0.3micron, so that checks out. What's missing, and what I was referring to to are these points:

 

- Purity of C60 used

- Is it mixed in the dark?

- Centrifuged at how many Gs for how long?

 

The other thing I was disappointed in is that it says:

"Please browse the rest of our website and feel free to send us an email if you have any questions."

but I was unable to find an email anywhere on their site, and when I found one on their Facebook page and wrote to them, they failed to respond.

 

But they may be the best option after all, particularly if Niner is correct in his concerns about Vaughter's micronization process.

 

 

 

 

I posted this on another forum, so I apologize if you've seen it before.

 

After using Carbon's product, purchased on carbon60oliveoil.com since August, 2012, I decided to try Vaughter's product.

 

There is a distinct difference in the colors of the two companies.

 

Vaughter's is a brown tone, where Carbon's has a distinct purplish tone, but it is not a true deep purple.

 

They both taste about the same, so I assume that they are both using a similar grade of extra virgin olive oil, as the taste is much like the Kirkland organic EVO that I use for cooking.

 

So, even though Vaughter's costs a bit less, I don't like that she provides C60oo in smaller bottles. It's just an ecology thing on my part. More wasted glass. 

 

I also have a preference for the more purple color of Carbon's, as that is what I've read and seen photos of as being the color that it is supposed to be.

[niner]

There is a distinct difference in the colors of the two companies.

 

Vaughter's is a brown tone, where Carbon's has a distinct purplish tone, but it is not a true deep purple.

 

They both taste about the same, so I assume that they are both using a similar grade of extra virgin olive oil, as the taste is much like the Kirkland organic EVO that I use for cooking.

 

The color differences might be due to different colored olive oils.  If the Vaughter oil is very green (high chlorophyll levels), then it would look more brown after being combined with c6O.

[Kalliste]

Any updates on this topic? I have never tried c60 but I have ordered two bottles from Vaugther. I might give some to my old cat and see if it livens him up a bit. But if I'm going to try some myself I want it to be good. Vaugthers page seems very convincing but that might just be the cover. Why is she controversial?

[niner]

 Why is she controversial?

 

She had a big fight in this forum with another vendor that kind of went overboard.  Neither of them looked all that great.  She got mad at a customer who made an unreasonable request, and posted all his personal information on her site.

[Turnbuckle]

 

The color differences might be due to different colored olive oils.  

 

 

That can't explain everything as I've prepared red solutions in EVOO that eventually turned brown. I've prepared a solution in a different vegetable oil that was initially perfectly clear, and while it was magenta at first, it also darkened with age. And I've prepared a C60 solution in squalene which stayed almost perfectly clear and never changed. So I suspect the brown is at least partially due the accumulation of adducts.

[niner]

 

The color differences might be due to different colored olive oils.  

 

That can't explain everything as I've prepared red solutions in EVOO that eventually turned brown. I've prepared a solution in a different vegetable oil that was initially perfectly clear, and while it was magenta at first, it also darkened with age. And I've prepared a C60 solution in squalene which stayed almost perfectly clear and never changed. So I suspect the brown is at least partially due the accumulation of adducts.

 

Could be.  I just looked at the remnants of the first batch I ever made, and it still looks very magenta.  It's not highly concentrated- around 0.5 or 0.6mg/ml.  If I pour a little out, it looks brown, which has always been the case.  If I look through a large volume of it, it looks deep magenta.  So some factors are concentration, volume, and other compounds in the oil, like chlorophyll.  C6O is reactive as hell, so I really couldn't rule anything out.  I'd sure like to know what carbon60oliveoil does to get that purple color.  Purple dye, maybe?  Wouldn't it be cool if the c60oo industry got big enough to afford real instrumentation so they could do some serious quality control?

[Kalliste]

I think Baati mentioned somewhere he wasn't worried about adducts since the GI would pass them but that might have been something else.

[aribadabar]

 If I pour a little out, it looks brown, which has always been the case.  If I look through a large volume of it, it looks deep magenta. 

 

 

Same here.

Mine is a homemade batch with C60 bought from Solaris Chem which was ground by me and some Portuguese brand of EVOO which I bought (in March 2014) because it had BB date well into 2016 (supposedly very fresh). Most EVOOs in the store had BB dates until some time in 2015 and the ones that specified harvest date (mine did not) showed Sep-Nov 2013.

Not sure if that was just a marketing hype of the bottle I bought but thought it wouldn't be worse off at the very least.

 

That being said, I think it has turned slightly more brownish now when looked in a spoon (small quantity). I have kept it in the fridge for the last 5 months.

[The Ripper]

It seemed like this thread was going to answer some questions, but in the end I was left with even more uncertainty regarding who to buy from :P


I suppose at this stage I'll go with Vaughter as she appears to have the best rep, and try carbonc60oliveoil later just for a comparison.

Why is it so hard to get a hold of these people? Surely one of them would be willing to come in here and defend their product and maufacturing process. Or were they all banned after this argument one posted mentioned?

[Turnbuckle]

Why is it so hard to get a hold of these people? Surely one of them would be willing to come in here and defend their product and maufacturing process. 

 

 

That's the last thing any supplier should do. That they did it here was a mistake to begin with.

[niner]

Greg from MitoQ is here answering tons of questions.  I think it's a thread he gets in exchange for support of Longecity, but don't quote me on that- I'm not certain of it.  At any rate, it's very helpful.  I'm not at all opposed to vendors who interface with this community, as long as they're professional about it.  Not all of them have been in the past. 

[Kalliste]

Greg from MitoQ is here. He was very helpful in a Pm convo we had!

[mikey]

Even though Vaughter's is a bit of a savings over carbonc60oliveoil, after trying Vaughter's and them not really tasting different, but carbon's maintaining the slight purple, I am going to stick with carbon's. I get his best price by buying 10 at a time and then, based on Turnbuckle's statement I freeze them, so they are "fresh" enough when I thaw a bottle to use. Vaughter's comes in smaller bottles, so I prefer using less glass for ecology. NBD

 

I think I'm going to start making it, using SES and Kirkland EVOO, which tests very well. What the heck, it saves money. I'm assuming that I can make it to be equal in quality to carbon's.