20 replies to this topic

[wolfmaster39]

http://www.reddit.co...iltep_debunked/

 

Any opinions of this?

[medicineman]

there really isn't much room for opinion. I always thought the idea of ciltep was sloppy science. Oversimplification of extremely complex cellular activity into elementary arithmetic. take this, and that, and raise this, and facilitate Ltp?

edit: this is said with utmost respect to the thinker and others involved in ciltep

Edited by medicineman, 08 August 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[ZHMike]

I think this was brought up on the main thread.. I would enjoy hearing Abelards response.. personally ciltep was not what I was hoping for, 

[Nattzor]

I think this was brought up on the main thread.. I would enjoy hearing Abelards response.. personally ciltep was not what I was hoping for, 

 

I posted it there, yeah. It's also been posted on bulletproof forum and naturalstack forum by others, no answer there.

[wolfmaster39]

Assuming the stack is bull, what components may worth taking anyways for their own benefits? I plan to continue my 1000 mg ALCAR w/ ALA. Is DL-Phenylalanine, artichoke extract, or forskolin worth continuing? If so, in what amounts? Note that I have tried CILTEP for about a week and I don't think I've noticed any subjective effects personally, but I am aware that there are effective nootropics that lack noticeable subjective effects. 

[RTSW]

I have severe allergies (dust, mites) and some time ago, I happened to try CILTEP during a period when I was having difficulty controlling them with antihistamines. They suddenly got better, and the only thing I was doing differently from the usual was taking CILTEP. I then tried finding results on pubmed linking PDE4 inhibition to allergy relief and voila: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16312135.

I also managed to reproduce these results on other occasions. From then on, I've assumed PDE4 inhibition was responsible for that phenomenon. Either that is indeed the case, or forskolin plus artichoke extract cause allergy relief through some other means.

 

[Coen Hewes]

I have severe allergies (dust, mites) and some time ago, I happened to try CILTEP during a period when I was having difficulty controlling them with antihistamines. They suddenly got better, and the only thing I was doing differently from the usual was taking CILTEP. I then tried finding results on pubmed linking PDE4 inhibition to allergy relief and voila: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16312135.
I also managed to reproduce these results on other occasions. From then on, I've assumed PDE4 inhibition was responsible for that phenomenon. Either that is indeed the case, or forskolin plus artichoke extract cause allergy relief through some other means.

I found that every time I was taking CILTEP that any allergies I had would be amplified, or CILTEP was causing them. It could be an allergy to one of the ingredients. Either way, CILTEP did little for me but create brain fog, sneezing and a headache.

[gizmobrain]

I have severe allergies (dust, mites) and some time ago, I happened to try CILTEP during a period when I was having difficulty controlling them with antihistamines. They suddenly got better, and the only thing I was doing differently from the usual was taking CILTEP. I then tried finding results on pubmed linking PDE4 inhibition to allergy relief and voila: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16312135.

I also managed to reproduce these results on other occasions. From then on, I've assumed PDE4 inhibition was responsible for that phenomenon. Either that is indeed the case, or forskolin plus artichoke extract cause allergy relief through some other means.

 

PDE4 inhibitors (especially Quercetin w/Bromelain) always helped alleviate rhinitis in me. Add generic loratadine, and allergy season was a non-event this year.

 

As far as CILTEP being "debunked", you can find my somewhat irritated response in the CILTEP thread. 

 

 

there really isn't much room for opinion. I always thought the idea of ciltep was sloppy science. Oversimplification of extremely complex cellular activity into elementary arithmetic. take this, and that, and raise this, and facilitate Ltp?

edit: this is said with utmost respect to the thinker and others involved in ciltep

 

 

Honestly the idea of chemically inducing long-term potentiation never really was my focus. I'm far more interested in why forskolin + artichoke + 1/40th of the dose of stimulant I was previously taking effectively treats all my symptoms, without any of the previous side effects.

Edited by zrbarnes, 10 August 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[chemicalambrosia]

Zrbarnes, did you ever try forskolin and artichoke alone, not in combination with each other?

[dancarlin0]

I think this was brought up on the main thread.. I would enjoy hearing Abelards response.. personally ciltep was not what I was hoping for,

I posted it there, yeah. It's also been posted on bulletproof forum and naturalstack forum by others, no answer there.

Looks like they got around to taking the one on naturalstacks down.

[ZHMike]

 

 

I think this was brought up on the main thread.. I would enjoy hearing Abelards response.. personally ciltep was not what I was hoping for,

I posted it there, yeah. It's also been posted on bulletproof forum and naturalstack forum by others, no answer there.

Looks like they got around to taking the one on naturalstacks down.

 

interesting.. I am sure Abelard is preparing a response.. I am not giving up on Ciltep.. but it definately needs to be tweeked. 

[medicineman]

I think this was brought up on the main thread.. I would enjoy hearing Abelards response.. personally ciltep was not what I was hoping for,

I posted it there, yeah. It's also been posted on bulletproof forum and naturalstack forum by others, no answer there.

Looks like they got around to taking the one on naturalstacks down.

interesting.. I am sure Abelard is preparing a response.. I am not giving up on Ciltep.. but it definately needs to be tweeked.

whatever ciltep does, the science is clear. it's not chemically induced Ltp.

[sylent1]

Here's the straight skinny: bought a 60 day supply of CILTEP & the Smart Caffeine.  Have been using it a little over aweek and to get a separate opinion am also giving it to my housekeeper/cook. Both of us base lined with cognitive function tests and have been taking them everyday. I have noticed nothing other than the hair raising tingle of caffeine and the aching muscles that sometimes come with too much caffeine. No differences in our testing and nothing noticeable other than the caffeine. LOTTA money to spend for so little result. BTW midweek we jumped up to two CILTEP and still noticed no changes. I don't care how natural stacks or Abelard responds because there it is I want the cow back cuz the magic beans are a bust. 

[Goodenough]

Give it another week. It took me ten days to notice anything. Intense physical exercise seems to pronounce the effects. There's a troubleshooting thread somewhere, where Abelard gave some suggestions.

[sylent1]

Sorry....but can't compare to centroxiphine, ALCAR, a stack of racetams and a little selegeline.

Edited by sylent1, 23 August 2014 - 11:49 AM.

[8bitmore]

And there goes a perfectly functional placebo medicine, once the great upper, now the great nocebo, all just because of someone taking the time to debunk it - makes me wonder more about mind-body interplay than it does about the rational or not evidence for CILTEP.

[sylent1]

Rofl. Now ya made me feel like I told a first-grader there aint no Santy Claus.

[abelard lindsay]

I posted my quick response over at the natural stacks forum : http://forum.natural...l-please/?p=525

 

Anyway, I'm working on an advanced FAQ.  Most of the arguments in the reddit thread have shown up before on the old thread.  The main evidence that it works and my confidence in the oddly low dosages of forskolin and what not are based on a lot of anecdotes collected over time on the thread.  There are no published medical studies that say that 4mg forskolin is synergistic with artichoke extract.  That's because I came up with that through self experimentation after being inspired by earlier research.  My understanding that this works for other people is based on the anecdotes that came back after I shared it with the thread.  There were always non-responders.  There are ways to get huge effects off of ciltep stacks that are very overstimulating but I don't promote those and in fact warn against them.  As I haven't taken these super stimulating CILTEP combinations regularly for years, I'm not sure they are healthy.  IMHO, the stack is weaker than it could have been, but has been, at least for me, sustainable long-term.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 24 August 2014 - 03:44 AM.

[sylent1]

Perhaps my disappointment was induced by the dosages being more appropriate for little girls or the fact that I am starting my 2nd week taking two caps a day without noticeable effect. But this is why I included my housekeeper/ dishwasher (I only refer to her as such to fire her up). Needless to say Natural Stacks is VERY proud of their products and having been on the ground floor of several stack threads the 40 ducats dumped for a sixty day supply when bulk is so much cheaper may have something to do with my disdain. MOST people will be disappointed in the results for the price. I expect those more responsive to placebos will find it mind altering but after our "60" day supply we will be going back to other stacks where the effects were measureable. This is not to denigrate the research done by Lindsay as I realize more than most that different nootropes will be more significant to some people. I, myself, get enough choline in my diet that long ago I realized that supplementation was pointless. BUT having said that I thought this might be a good starting place for a stack. And it may well be...but NOT at the price Natural Stacks commands.

[abelard lindsay]

Perhaps my disappointment was induced by the dosages being more appropriate for little girls or the fact that I am starting my 2nd week taking two caps a day without noticeable effect. But this is why I included my housekeeper/ dishwasher (I only refer to her as such to fire her up). Needless to say Natural Stacks is VERY proud of their products and having been on the ground floor of several stack threads the 40 ducats dumped for a sixty day supply when bulk is so much cheaper may have something to do with my disdain. MOST people will be disappointed in the results for the price. I expect those more responsive to placebos will find it mind altering but after our "60" day supply we will be going back to other stacks where the effects were measureable. This is not to denigrate the research done by Lindsay as I realize more than most that different nootropes will be more significant to some people. I, myself, get enough choline in my diet that long ago I realized that supplementation was pointless. BUT having said that I thought this might be a good starting place for a stack. And it may well be...but NOT at the price Natural Stacks commands.

 

Natural Stacks is pretty liberal on refunds if you honestly didn't get anything out of it.  You can also buy the components themselves and adjust to your liking.  See the first page of the CILTEP thread for my recommendations and suggestions. 

[sylent1]

Not trying to piss on your parade, Abelard. It's just that so many people expect an actual NZT-48 response from nootropes and it just aint gonna happen. Face it, the basic neurotransmitter augmentation, receptor uptake and  synergism is not going to be world shaking and to be honest, I think that it is more responsible to apprise people of that. You aren't going to experience amazing mental acceleration or become super you with a nootrope stack. I have experienced increases in memory and significant improvements on cognitive function tests...but even these can be affected by too little sleep or diet.At any rate you aren't going to experience a rocket sled ride into competence. And there are other considerations...the headaches with choline supplementation, the fogginess with memantine BEFORE the receptor uptake begins. I intend to give this the full treatment -tho giving it to my care giver is going to shorten  the test period and increasing the dose more so. I find the Smart Caffeine unpleasant even at low doses but gave up coffee years ago. And again....everyone will have different reactions to the stack....still I think the claims to be a LITTLE inflated.