707 replies to this topic

[hza]

That's how I've always understood it; otherwise if you're syncing separate bands across 2 different channels then the TAG x1 design wouldn't make any sense.  If you use x1 at a single site in a monopolar montage, you train to sync the targeted bands in one location.  You can use that in a bipolar montage and I guess you're syncing the averaged activity of each band with the other.  But then it stands to reason that x2 in a monopolar montage just does the same thing as x1, plus syncing with another channel--in all, I think that means 4 bands are synced together. 

 

I believe that TAGX2 shows some type of average or compounding of the amplitude across both electrode sites, of any one frequency (ie: theta). I would only add, therefore, to be sure that any design that you are attempting to get to mimic TAGsync isn't merely syncing theta at channel 1 (for instance) with gamma at channel 2 (for instance). I believe that both frequencies have to be measured for through both channels, and the appropriate compounded/average feedback given. In other words, the theta bin is giving feedback for 2 channels and so is the gamma bin. This is my impression. Someone may correct me. This may be how CON2C works, but I'm not sure. If it is, then mimicking TAGsync using it would be trivial. They only lacking feedback would be the high beta (and delta?) inhibits. Though, I don't tend to have much issue staying under those inhibits in TAGsync except when I move around. I'd personally be comfortable doing not overly long sessions without them. I'd also personally be more worried about uptraining delta with theta than I would beta with gamma.

 

Brain-Trainer keeps updating their website, and they've redone their FAQ section since the last time I was there, and in revisiting the page yesterday I ran across a note by Pete van Deusen on TAG and CON2C that I hadn't seen before that seems relevant to the discussion here.  It's just a stub--Pete puts answers to questions in the Yahoo forum in his FAQs often without the context of the specific question, and this note appears to be a response to a question about the TLC7 assessment--but I seem to remember reading somewhere either in the FAQs or in their forum a more extended breakdown on how CON2C is essentially the same thing as TAG Sync.  It really seems to me that the bins targeted to suppressing Beta and Delta that Douglas has put in his design are the only significant difference.  One of these days I'll have time to muck around in the diagrams in Bioexplorer and compare them, but it'll probably take a full day at least.

 

 

TAG Sync (Theta Alpha Gamma Synchrony)

Douglas has certainly made people aware of this protocol, and his version is nicely done from what I’ve heard. Sure alpha, theta and gamma synchrony are desired states, but a bit less than half the assessments I see already synchronize. It would be like training a cheerleader to jump up and down. That’s the problem with buying something you might not need. The assessment will show your synchrony eyes-closed, eyes-open and at task between each site pair in theta, alpha and gamma (and the other frequencies as well). There are alpha synchrony, gamma synchrony, one-band synchrony for delta, theta or alpha, two-band synchrony for alpha and (you choose) theta or gamma. Same as TAG sync in terms of what it does.

 

[zensauce]

Hey all,

 

For anyone w/ a brainmaster unit (like myself) that wanted to do a similar type of nfb to TAG sync, here is the following pdf:

 file:///C:/Users/erichio/Downloads/White_Collura_workshop_-_Synchrony_BrainMaster.pdf

 

In that article, it mentions that 2 channel synchrony between f3 and f4 is NOT recommended for "clinical reasons" (although having the two sites together alongside others in a 4 channel setup is not disallowed, curiously), and I was wondering if anybody knew why this might be the case? 

 

Also, DD often describes TAG sync's designs as being correlated with the brain activity of "advanced meditators," but as many have pointed out, there are several types of meditation that differ quite widely in both practice and in their effects (in my experience, for example, mindfulness experiences tend to be different than those of compassion/loving-kindness meditation). Does anyone know what "type" of meditation is being referred to? And has anybody actually tried to incorporate meditative techniques (such as mindfulness or compassion) directly into their tag sync sessions? If so, what have been the effects?

Edited by zensauce, 23 August 2015 - 11:12 PM.

[Earplug]

Publicly accessible link here: http://www.brainmast...kb/file/210/82/  (Will automatically download PDF) File is attached here as well.   White_Collura_workshop_-_Synchrony_BrainMaster.pdf   348.84KB   7 downloads

Edited by Earplug, 24 August 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[VastEmptiness]

Haven't been training for about a month, which was good to see the changes integrate into daily life. The journey isn't over anywhere yet, I just felt settling down would be a good idea at this time (changing countries, leaving a loved one behind). Also the combination of delta-and-below-TAGsync and several high-dose DMT treatments have shattered several belief system regarding the nature of reality; that is, I experience more and more a certainty that consciousness isn't located in either body or matter, not even time, but rather as if it was the different way around. During out-of-body experiences within the Ayahuasca sessions I felt more clear and sane, more myself, more real and at home then I ever had within the finite and fixed realms of the body. Specifically when time dissolved, what was left was a sense of freedom regarding all those wishes and fears that we have. I came to realize that there is no need to achieve anything in any amount of time, because the place after physical manifest life is not one "after life" but rather radically outside of the dominion of time; that is, time there is simply a matter of perspective. Outside of time, there is no reason to long for past experiences as they are just as yet to become as already gone, always missing and ever fulfilled. We can see the typical paradoxic structure of mind, when we witness ourselves gaining more of what we desire, once we ease on the search. Anything in life can be approached more skillfully when we relax ourselves into it; except for being stress maybe.

 

Saying those things, I might want to point out, that I experience myself as the regular, sane person that started this journey, within the everyday troubles that life brings about and as we all know, those aren't always pretty. However, there is a certainty now within myself, that altered states and specifically NFB-assisted meditation offer a freedom beyond those of saturating manifest, finite desires. Also leaving those links here. The first corresponds to my experiences; the second sums up the pitfalls of meditation, once your past that garbage of the monkey mind.

 

 sumsitup.jpg   70.05KB   6 downloads

Edited by VastEmptiness, 28 August 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[umop 3pisdn]

Also, DD often describes TAG sync's designs as being correlated with the brain activity of "advanced meditators," but as many have pointed out, there are several types of meditation that differ quite widely in both practice and in their effects (in my experience, for example, mindfulness experiences tend to be different than those of compassion/loving-kindness meditation). Does anyone know what "type" of meditation is being referred to? And has anybody actually tried to incorporate meditative techniques (such as mindfulness or compassion) directly into their tag sync sessions? If so, what have been the effects?

 

I'm not convinced that the difference between neurofeedback and meditation in general is particularly well defined, both are practices of self-regulation. If you uptrain alpha at FpO2 (where on the underside of the orbital bone meets the nose on the right side), you're basically meditating on equanimity, and if you uptrain beta at FpO1 (same site just on the other side), you're basically meditating on piti (or 'rapture'). There's lots of stuff like this, it's just like you said, different kinds of meditation have different effects.

 

TAGsync is basically awareness of awareness practice. Dzogchen Trekcho is one example of a practice like this, or Essence Mahamudra, or the 'poo roo' emphasized in some Thai Forest traditions, and I think this is also the same as the consciousness/light kasina briefly mentioned in some of the pali suttas. It's a form of concentration practice but you apprehend an internal sign (or nimitta) that is like a sort of 'mental light' that is somehow representative of the quality of being aware (or sati-sampajanna). Like with the use of any nimitta in meditation it creates a sort of feedback loop where the thing you're paying attention to directly reflects the quality of your attention, so the process becomes somewhat self-sustaining, but there's some interesting stuff you can do with this nimitta in particular if you're interested in the combined path of concentration and insight (or samatha and vipassana) meditation. Particularly this impression of 'mental light' is one of the last vestiges of selfhood that remains in concentration practice, and by using this as a base to observe the three marks of existence (basic vipassana practice), you can develop some panna or wisdom that is extremely penetrating, which is what you're after in serious vipassana practice, and this is just one step off from what I'd do when practising with TAGsync. Technically though anyone into vipassana practice is going to develop samatha in the process, so all approaches are 'combined samatha and vipassana' in one way or another, there's just some ideological differences. Proponents of the hard vipassana approach might say that people using the mental light nimitta are focusing on secondary mental representations born of concentration practice instead of 'real' phenomena, and the implication is that they may be deluding themselves in that respect, so it kind of depends on personal sensibility. Personally the 'hard' vipassana approach never agreed with me while this sort of approach does, YMMV.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 29 August 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[whiskeytango67]

@umop, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. For someone who is looking for the benefits of the 'combined' approach you described through meditation only, where would you recommend starting? And how would you recommend distributing one's efforts between a formal practice (e.g., 20 consecutive minutes a day of focused sitting) and ongoing practice (e.g., do you really have to strive for every moment to be mindful)?

I'm (still) a relative newbie to NFB; although I have the TAG sync designs, I'm ascending the NFB learning curve quite slowly, so am looking to at least get a jump start on this through meditation.

Much appreciate your comments.

[umop 3pisdn]

@whiskeytango,

 

I'm in kind of a funny position, I learned this stuff largely through neurofeedback, but regardless I think I can still offer some general advice. You have to be willing to experiment, and have some means of measuring success, otherwise it's like you're in fog and can only see a few inches in front of your face, you could walk right by some useful landmarks and never see them. What neurofeedback offered me personally was just some confidence to experiment and to weigh that against a more objective standard, doing that helped my own internal compass to develop, but obviously that isn't needed.

 

For the kind of practice I described, you could look to some Vajrayana practices. Namkhai Norbu ("Crystal and the Way of Light" to start with, or "Cycle of Day and Night" for something more advanced) comes very well regarded in the publicly available, English speaking Dzogchen tradition. I've also heard that Reggie Ray is a great source for the Mahamudra tradition (which is similar to Dzogchen in many ways). Personally, though, I find Vajrayana teaching methods and discourses a little hard to wrap my head around. I tend to prefer Theravada, because I find it to be more technically precise. However, depending on your view this sort of practice may or may not be that established in the Theravada canon. Though I believe Ajahn Mun, Amaro, and Sumedho teach something in the area of that. I believe that the 'poo roo', thitibhutam (or primal mind) and even 'buddho' are all ways of referring to this quality of awareness itself rendered as an 'object' for cultivation in samatha or concentrative practice.

 

In fact, I don't know if this is a popular opinion or not, but I think the entire third tetrad of conventional anapansati practice describes a practice exactly like that:
 

(Third Anapanasati Tetrad, Cittanupassana or Contemplation of the Mind)

 

9. Experiencing the mind

10. Gladdening the mind  

11. Centering the mind in samadhi  

12. Releasing the mind

 

Many people think cittanupassana (or contemplation of the mind) is about observing if the mind is subject to the hindrances, or concentrated and calm, etc. Often that is the case, but in this case I think something in the vein of those practices I've described is a viable reading. Particularly 'releasing the mind' is something you can do easily when you've apprehended a clear perception of 'the one that knows' (or sati-sampajanna in the form of a 'nimitta', another way of saying the mind as an 'object'), and this step you could consider "centering the mind in samadhi". From there you can "release the mind" from all content, which ime results in a sort of quasi-conscious state (you're fully aware, but it isn't appropriate to say that you're aware of anything,) this stage correlates to higher delta amplitudes in the EEG in my experience, and it leads almost seamlessly into contemplation of dhammas (or vipassana proper), the final tetrad of anapanasati practice.

 

So all I can suggest is toying around with some of this stuff, and that's only because that's what I've done. I haven't studied under anyone in particular, I was just moderately diligent in my practice and I tried to read a lot (but only when I needed to) to understand the kinds of phenomena I was experiencing in my practice.

 

PS: Sorry, I missed a point. My mindfulness varies constantly throughout the day, maintaining consistent mindfulness is something I find to be the most challenging, it's easier for me to just devote my full attention to practice when I'm on the cushion. But it is important to at least try off the cushion, too, so you don't undo all of your progress by living heedlessly, it's very easy to just jump up when the bell rings and forget to incorporate any of those skills you developed while sitting into the rest of your life.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 30 August 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Healthy Frank]

Hey guys, curious about people currently doing the brain-trainer plan. When I first got my plan it made alot of sense as it said i had low frontal alpha and other things associated with depression anxiety stress. But then i did an assessment on my sister who had no complaints about her brain and the plan almost suggested her brain was worse off then mine... showed unusual patterns at nearly all sites on the brain... Anyway, I did the first 5 blocks of training and felt nothing happened and also tried both Tag designs and felt nothing... am i doing something wrong? durin Alpha. theta your supposed to feel a visual deep experience but i felt nothing at all...

[umop 3pisdn]

Hey guys, curious about people currently doing the brain-trainer plan. When I first got my plan it made alot of sense as it said i had low frontal alpha and other things associated with depression anxiety stress. But then i did an assessment on my sister who had no complaints about her brain and the plan almost suggested her brain was worse off then mine... showed unusual patterns at nearly all sites on the brain... Anyway, I did the first 5 blocks of training and felt nothing happened and also tried both Tag designs and felt nothing... am i doing something wrong? durin Alpha. theta your supposed to feel a visual deep experience but i felt nothing at all...

 

I don't have experience with the brain-trainer system, so I can't really comment on that, but it took me a while to develop a feeling of confidence working with neurofeedback. Neither the hardware, software, nor training are particularly intuitive. I honestly think you just have to do it a bunch. If setting up the sensors to get a clean enough signal is easier, doing sessions feels like less of a chore. I use a system that involves spongy fabric holding saline solution (which you can just make at home) to get a connection through hair on the cranium (or if there isn't hair there I just use paste), and this way you don't need to do any prep or worry about washing paste out of your hair afterwards. Eliminating that barrier might help you to do more sessions and work out the kinks both on the level of hardware/software and your personal response to different kinds of training.

 

Working to increase alpha on the right side is probably a good place to start. A design like that likely uses just one active sensor site, one reward band, and one or two inhibit bins, it's about as prototypical as you can get and it can be very powerful. I train to increase alpha at FpO2 (where on the underside of the orbital bone meets the nose on the right side) using a 'prototypical' design exactly like that, the rationale is that the orbitofrontal cortex has the most connections to the amydala, so it's likely the best site for direct affect regulation accessible on the cranium. On the right side, you can view it as actively/skillfully 'attentuating' potentially negative or anxious emotions, in a crude way you can view alpha training as reducing the activity in an area that is 'anxious'. And this pattern is reversed on the left side, where you usually train up beta to skillfully produce more positive and energetic emotions. When you increase alpha at FpO2 you're basically developing equanimity or forbearance, or essentially the ability to 'put into perspective' difficult emotions by simultaneously acknowledging them and not giving them any heed, and I think it's a really useful practice for anyone.

Edited by umop 3pisdn, 02 September 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[Healthy Frank]

ty umop but im still confused about a few things. First off, Douglas has answered me since i bought. tAg so we havent had a consultation yet. Also I don't get how people are uptraining alpha or anything like that during the session. Could someone explain how they run a basic session? Today I just did TAG x2 audio feedback design- I first do Fz Pz active Afz ground and A1 and a2 reference. Fz Pz is lit up green in multiplexer since i use E-cap. Im guna try regular electrodes next. Acter fz pz i do f3 p3 and then f4 p4.... I do each about 10-20 mins... during session idk what to do so i just watch vids on youtube... I dont adjust filters or thresholds since I don't know what they should be... I heard the scratch which is pink noise i think often . Is that the phase reset? also, the bars for delta thru beta 5 and all close to the bottome and don't come near hitting the bar at the top... What should be done during a session and what sites are good?

[Healthy Frank]

update on status of training: I had consukt with Doug today and he taught me eveything needed to run a session. After doing a sesh with him, just 20 minutes at the midline pz cz, I felt a great sense of happiness and energy that i havent felt in almost a year.... anxiety and tension are less... this is truly exciting... tomorrow i run sesh on midline... f4 p4 and then p3 p4... to see if i can replicate experience.... Also if anyone can share their site selections for tagx1 thatd be great... this is just the beginning

[Meggo]

@ healthy frank

are you sure you did pz-cz and not pz-fz?

and if you did pz-cz did you train theta-smr or still theta-alpha synchronicity and was theta at 4-7 Hz or at Schuhmann Frequency (7,83Hz?)

did you change the filter settings in any way? (the default is butterworth with order at 6, which results in a larg lag)?

regarding tagx1 the standard is to start at

t3-t4 bipolar @smr frequency of 12-15Hz and then lower it every 2-3min 1-3Hz and wait until you find a frequency band which results in a calm but attentive mindstate

inside this frequency band you can then finetune in 0,1hz increments to make the experience even better; at the right frequency the spectral bins should become flat

then u do t3-t4 for some time and you later add t3-fp1, t3-p3 and t4-fp2, t4-p4

Edited by Meggo, 08 September 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Healthy Frank]

yes fz pz ... my mistake.... thnx for correcting that. Also, thnx for tagx1 instructions...

[Healthy Frank]

Also, is that basic training for mos people: fz pz, f4 p4, f3 p4? i remember doug saying sonething about the general adaptation protocol is that it?

[Healthy Frank]

Also, is that basic training for mos people: fz pz, f4 p4, f3 p4? i remember doug saying sonething about the general adaptation protocol is that it?

[Healthy Frank]

Also, for those that don't already know, Doug is impressed with the experiments on this forum and plans to address us in the future and also put out a more complete operations guide but he is currently occupied since he is doing some international conference and is gettin major attention for his work.

[Healthy Frank]

Sorry for the multiple posts. This should do it for a while. Firstly, When I run TAGx1 i seemed to get a constant band of 10hz activity. I do not get this during TAGx2 and my eyes are not closed. I have T3 active T4 reference and Afz ground. Linked references is turned off. Does anyone else have this problem? Also, just before posting this, I tried to meditate after a TAGx2 sesh on fz pz... instead of entering a state of meditation that I am used to (feeling a sort of rush of bliss and a release of some sorts after repeating one word in my head forever and trying to block out every other thought) I entered into a sort of out of body experience, though that may be the wrong term for it. What happened was that my surroundings became dark (almost like a dream state) and i lost control of my physical body as it was being moved in different directions almost as if it was being controlled by an outside force. I must say, my mind still felt as though it was connected to the body but I could not control it. I felt as though I could release myself from the experience at any moment by "waking up" it lasted for maybe 3-5 minutes. Now, i have experienced this before on numerous occasions and normally happens when im trying to take a nap during the day. Sometimes, they are quite frightening because I feel as though I'm being led to something; sometimes I feel it is either God or the Devil controlling me though I don't believe in either... Wondering if anyone else experiences this and ho0w it relates to your knowledge of meditation.

[Crowstream]

@Healthy Frank

I have not had any experiences like that I think, but I know experiences can vary a lot for people when it comes to things like meditation. It is quite a huge field of possibilities.

If you feel like you are being led to something then I would say try to explore it, in Jungian psychology those kinds of situations are quite common, where the unconscious tries to communicate in some way, this may happen through dreams, feelings, synchronicities etc. I would say it is a good idea to tune in to your intuition and try to understand what you need to learn.

From a Jungian perspective God and the Devil can be interpreted as archetypes, having real effects, and therefore can be seen as real in a way. I would say they are very powerful archetypes and can be sign of some kind of psychological activation, a sign of mystical experiences to come or even mental difficulties, although it is hard for me to tell of course from just reading your description, I would say try to trust in yourself to find out. I think it is a bad idea to ignore such signs, at least in my experience. I can recommend reading more on Jungian psychology, it is one of my favorite fields in psychology so I may be a bit biased of course  .

 

"Confrontations with the unconscious" is a modern attempt at an integration of Jungian psychology with psychedelics, written by a psychologist who has personal experiences with both psychedelics and psychosis. It is quite well known now that Jung himself had many experiences that we may deem as psychotic, they could also be seen as Gnostic illuminations if you are more mystically inclined, in either case some quite interesting experiences.

[VastEmptiness]

Sorry for the multiple posts. This should do it for a while. Firstly, When I run TAGx1 i seemed to get a constant band of 10hz activity. I do not get this during TAGx2 and my eyes are not closed. I have T3 active T4 reference and Afz ground. Linked references is turned off. Does anyone else have this problem? Also, just before posting this, I tried to meditate after a TAGx2 sesh on fz pz... instead of entering a state of meditation that I am used to (feeling a sort of rush of bliss and a release of some sorts after repeating one word in my head forever and trying to block out every other thought) I entered into a sort of out of body experience, though that may be the wrong term for it. What happened was that my surroundings became dark (almost like a dream state) and i lost control of my physical body as it was being moved in different directions almost as if it was being controlled by an outside force. I must say, my mind still felt as though it was connected to the body but I could not control it. I felt as though I could release myself from the experience at any moment by "waking up" it lasted for maybe 3-5 minutes. Now, i have experienced this before on numerous occasions and normally happens when im trying to take a nap during the day. Sometimes, they are quite frightening because I feel as though I'm being led to something; sometimes I feel it is either God or the Devil controlling me though I don't believe in either... Wondering if anyone else experiences this and ho0w it relates to your knowledge of meditation.

 

I think you are experiencing what has been called 'sleep paralysis', it is a common phenomena during naps for alot of people in the scene of lucid dreaming, astral projections, OBE, etc. and it can be quite scary. - I did have an increase in what you could call psychic phenomena (depending on the frame of interpretation) with TAGsync practice including a single event of sleep paralysis after strong EEG changes around the right temporal lobes. According to this paper they seem to show constant irregular activity in subjects who report such phenomena. I mention this since you seem to be training T3&T4 and it's precisely T4 that shows irregular activity in my case. http://www.psi-resea...article_1.html 

 

Other than that I would recommend you to talk to Douglas to decide training options and to take the phenomena seriously. By that I don't mean starting to believe in either god or the devil, but to acknowledge the fine line between mystical and psychotic experience and that there can be an increase in either with heavy meditation practice. A skillful supervisor like Douglas might be able to guide you here, so could an advanced meditator that successfully has dealt with those experiences and found ways to integrate them. A good read on that is the following book and you might want to compare your experiences to Chapter III of the book: http://www.buddhisti...ring-vers-3.pdf or in website form here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB/en

The Red Book by Carl Jung is a first person report of his psychotic/visionary episodes and the Jungians should have published more material on that than other schools of psychology except for maybe the transpersonal/psychedelic-people like Stanislav Grof.

 

Either way, I recommend having a mentor for this, read material by people who have passed this terrain, to skillfully navigate through it. Make sure to be in a generally stable state, have a supportive surrounding, take good care of yourself and plan every step with the best of your abilities. I'd like to see this whole thing produce knowledgable, sane & healthy people while not ignoring phenomena like those that you're experiencing. The best to you, Frank. Happy exploring.

 

Also I really recommend to everybody reading this article, that Douglas sent me about adverse effects of meditation and the possibility to navigate around them using EEG assessment: http://www.bm-scienc...83_in-press.pdf - He sent me a nicer formatted version if anybody wants it.

Edited by VastEmptiness, 16 September 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[ceridwen]

I had the experience of my body moving without my wanting it to. This was after the beginning of my current illness. I was on psylosibin truffles that turned out to be past their sell by date I'd bought in Amsterdam. I kept getting out of bed in the middle of the night when I didn't want to

[Healthy Frank]

thnx for the responses guys. Reading earlier in the forum, ive become interested in running 4channle tag... like VE (TAGD) how do i set up bioexplorer to show 2 more channels? I tried creating more oscilloscopes but they dont come with a channel tab.. Can someone elaborate on this?

[Bobity]

I'm going over to the Denver & Kelowna Canada to attend the following next month :

https://brain-traine...ainer-workshop/

http://theisnr.wix.c...workshops/c1llj

Trauma Work and Neurofeedback: Theta Alpha Gamma (TAG) Synchrony Training

Presenter: Ted Chapin, PhD, Lori Russell- Chapin, PhD, Douglas Dailey, LAc

Thought it would be great to meet some of the Brain Trainer people and Douglas Dailey at the ISRN conference.  Is anyone else going to either of these ?

[OpaqueMind]

Hey all, I hope you are all doing well!

 

Douglas has a new and improved TAGsync website up, here it is - www.tagsync.com

 

The information is significantly deeper and more organised than it was on his previous sites. Enjoy 

[whiskeytango67]

Hi all! It's been a while since I checked this forum and first, @umop I owe you a big thanks for your thoughtful reply in late August to my question about meditation. I felt gratitude upon reading your reply and have been remiss insofar as I haven't expressed it here.

 

 

@Bobity, how were the events? I read about them too late and probably wouldn't have been able to go due to work, but would really like to attend such an event to deepen my practice in the future.

 

Having purchased my set-up about a year ago and put trying to figure out NFB on the back burner for much of the elapsed time, I've only recently begun to realize some of what experienced TAG Sync'ers (like @OpaqueMind) have described.. these descriptions are what drew me to try NFB in the first place so this is exciting. It's also exciting to think that in just a few sessions, I've only scratched the surface of what is possible.. Framing my experience this way also helps me get rid of a "been there, done that" demotivating feeling that can sometimes sabotage my worthwhile pursuits.. This calls to mind that concept of "beginner's mind" popularized (I think) by Shunryu Suzuki.

 

I also feel that I need to pay attention to what is happening during TAG Sync, asking the gentle question "what am I/what is my brain doing right now, in order to evoke such quiet" (in the case of quiet reward) and then actually paying attention to what's going on, before asking the question again, and paying attention afresh thereafter..

 

My fault: I had imagined NFB being a largely passive process in terms of how much attention it needs, I had even fantasized about getting other things done while having electrodes/wires appropriately hooked up to my head and a computer and the whole thing would just "do" itself. What a mistake! This apparently takes "mindful" effort and focus and prioritization, and is proving to be totally worth it.

 

To clarify, I don't think being "overly verbal" throughout the session helps; that is not what I mean by effort (I clarify at least partially for my own sake   ). I do think that some basic elements broadly emphasized in meditation-- especially intention, and a genuine desire/motivation to be doing what you're doing (be it meditating, and/or investigating aspects of your brain/mind)-- are much more important in the NFB (or at least, TAG Sync- which is really what I mean by NFB in this post) context than I had initially suspected. I hadn't even previously made a judgment about the importance of these things in NFB; I was just entirely naive to such matters.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts? Wishing all a good weekend.

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Hey Guys,

 

So i'm starting Tag Sync. I see that DD uses 3-6 for theta, but what ranges do you guys use for Theta and espacially for Gamma. Has anyone here tried something else than 38-42 for gamma?

 

[Meggo]

Do you have a source for the 3-6Hz Theta? In this book http://www.amazon.co...uct_top?ie=UTF8 the authors select 4-7Hz for Theta, 9-12Hz for alpha and 32-48Hz for gamma.

[VastEmptiness]

Hey Guys,

 

So i'm starting Tag Sync. I see that DD uses 3-6 for theta, but what ranges do you guys use for Theta and espacially for Gamma. Has anyone here tried something else than 38-42 for gamma?

 

Do you have a source for the 3-6Hz Theta? In this book http://www.amazon.co...uct_top?ie=UTF8 the authors select 4-7Hz for Theta, 9-12Hz for alpha and 32-48Hz for gamma.

Afaik there is two alpha rythms that optimally should be 8-10 for low alpha and 10-12 for high alpha. Under that we have at least two theta-rythms and a delta. Below that it gets hard to train either way, but surely there is ILF as well. Which frequency a band really has depends on the client. Names and ranges vary greatly in the literature. I guess a skilled practitioner could tell that from the raw wave? I think we have to try and watch for results. Douglas recommends training 10hz alpha peak, he's orienting on this distribution of frequencies in healthy people: http://tagsync.com/sbeh.htm - So I'm actually training it up now, it got really low with training deep states. If you alpha peak is low (look where the EC alpha wave sits), i'd be training 9-12 and if its high something like 8-11, if its good just go for 9-11 or 8-12.

 

What has been a constant pattern is that a lower frequency gives for a deeper sensation and more early life imagery. It makes sense to me because we all start out as delta-brains and then evolve from that. We reach 10hz alpha at around age 10 from what i know. Delta also has been linked to the unconscious and even collective unconscious. In a simplified model theta could then be the pre-conscious as it has been linked to hypnotic/trance-states and creativity. Just training alpha synchrony gives me a relaxed/detached sensation without any stronger imagery. So deeper seems to be more therapeutic and higher more relaxing. Gamma gives me a sensation of connectedness to the world without much imagery either. I think linking anything below 10hz to it is a good idea.

 

@Meggo: I wouldn't synchronize anything below 38 hertz (and over 12, except for 12-15 SMR between C3 and C4). If PVD is correct and most clients have their high beta end at 38, you're actually uptraining high-beta-synchrony which can lead to very disturbing symptoms depending on which sides. I'm myself getting great results with the 38-42 range and binaural beats at 40hz (some of my favorite protocols still), also with uptraining 40hz power. Over that shouldn't be a problem, i read some study that correlated delta and 100hz gamma phase-coupling with outstanding sports-performance or something. I had the idea of linking 0.1hz ILF, 1hz delta, 10hz alpha, 100hz gamma and do 0.1hz HRV breathing with it, however never tried :D

 

As for TAGsync: I'm just getting back into it. There have been other challenges that I had to face during the last months that led me into studying other aspects of Biohacking to good result. Waiting for some bloodwork/genetics results, etc. Have been training more on PVD's protocols. However, I'm missing the deep meditative states so surely I'll be back.

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Thanks for those insights. So people train gamma at 38-42.

 

Other questions:

 

1) Anyone here tried training all three bands simultaneously using the same type of audio feedback?

 

2) Anyone uses GSR to relax while doing TAG Sync? 

 

Thanks! 

[VastEmptiness]

Thanks for those insights. So people train gamma at 38-42.

 

Other questions:

 

1) Anyone here tried training all three bands simultaneously using the same type of audio feedback?

 

2) Anyone uses GSR to relax while doing TAG Sync? 

 

Thanks! 

 

1) Most of my training was coupling 4 frequencies so TAG+delta, all at the same time. I felt that to be significantly deeper than doing two alone. Also across 4 channels. Douglas doubts that either one is the best choice. He chose TAGx2 over alternatives thats how much i know.

 

2) GSR no, but I think it would be a good idea. I did use HRV(EKG) and can really recommend using a breathing timer at 5s/5s (0.1hz, no breaks) and do deep belly breathing, which is what I do at the moment. It can take some time to learn to concentrate on the rewards and still do a fluent breathing but I feel it is a useful addition and you're basicly saving time (I'd recommend HRV training to anyone that has a lung).

[MRBIOFEEDBACK]

Thanks VastEmptyness! When training, do you use Delta 1-4, Theta 4-8,.. or a subset of each. 

 

Also, I read the collura white paper which says to uptrain the Summed Amplitude and downtrain the difference. Do you all use both for each frequency band or just uptrain the summed amplitude? 

 

Thanks.