Posted 28 November 2015 - 04:19 AM
...There is some work being done on the "de-programming" (sort of) front, like Liz Parrish's AAV HTERT experiment ...
I hope this is on point; but here's more from Liz Parish:
Yes - I watched that today.
Posted 28 November 2015 - 04:46 AM
1. "See my previous post."
yes I have read that
"If short telomeres contribute to aging by creating senescent cells, would senescent cell clearance be an equally good way to fix the problem?"
That is why I was questioning why you want to just remove senescent cells, without replacing/resetting the telomeres?
The "previous post" is number 27. You are looking at the one before that.
3. " ... and has a startup, Telocyte, that promises to "cure Alzheimers" (despite the unclear relationship between telomere length and Alzheimer's pathology), so he has something to sell."
Well, to be honest I would rather see something that cost me money and be developed, than commies ideas that "the technologies will be free for everybody", but with the pace they are developed will take eons ...
"Commies"? Do you understand the concept of Conflict of Interest?
6. "I have to question the idea that resetting of telomeres is available right now, and that it is an effective anti-aging technology. Where is it available today? "
You just answer to yourself above, without realizing. Sorry, I know sounds not friendly at all, but you do really have issues with logical connection between things you post.
You consider Liz's experiment to be "available today"? I'm talking about something I can get from my doctor, not an illegal experiment I have to fly to Colombia for. I'm talking about something that has been shown to be both efficacious and reasonably safe.
7. "How do we know it reverses the effects of aging?"
You cannot be serious asking this, are you? here are couple things (apologize for being sarcastic): step one, buy a mirror ... now seriously: you know that there are few things that determine the biological age? ... please do a Google search for that ... if you do not know that there is "let me google it for you" ... lol ... please read here:
http://www.genomebio...m/2015/16/1/185
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4015143/
http://www.biomedcen.../1741-7007/13/7
If you're going to be insulting and sarcastic, then you should at least have the foggiest clue what you're talking about. You just gave me three links to papers about DNA methylation. We aren't talking about methylation, we're talking about telomeres!
8. "It looks like Fossel's project with Telocyte is well over a decade away from availability, assuming it passes all the hurdles before it. I think that we will see therapies like stem cell augmentation and senescent cell clearance before we see telomerase gene therapy."
That might be the case, I'm really happy to see ANYTHING that really works for reverse aging.
You were talking about things that are available "right now". We'd all be happy to see anything that really works for reversing aging, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Liz's AAV experiment or Fossel's plan for "curing Alzheimers" will significantly reverse aging, or do anything, for that matter. I hope that they will work, but at this point, that's all that can be said.
Posted 30 November 2015 - 02:52 AM
1. "The "previous post" is number 27. You are looking at the one before that."
That post is not doing any good for the issue I raised.
2. "Commies"? Do you understand the concept of Conflict of Interest?
As a matter of fact I do know very well what a conflict of interest is, as we do lots of stuff that requires nda & co., developing proprietary things for our clients.
But the question is: do YOU know what that means?
A conflict of interest would be if he would do a clinical study and would run at the same time a business/company that sell a product based on that clinical study. Then there is a conflict of interest, as chances are he will be tempted to alter study's results to make more appealing company's product.
However, even with a CI declared, Michael Fossel can run a company. As an example, look at Valter Longo with his recent studies, while he is part of a company that sell products based on that - however IF you READ those studies, he declared Conflict of Interest. Comprendre?
in the case of Telocyte, he uses data out there to run a company. Based on you "logic" we wouldn't fly a Boeing or Airbus airplane, because Conflict of Interest for the guys that run wind tunnel tests for the wings.
Thank God we do not have people like you to make the laws, as we were thrown back in Dark Ages again and say kiss goodbye to science and advancement .
3. "You consider Liz's experiment to be "available today"? I'm talking about something I can get from my doctor, not an illegal experiment I have to fly to Colombia for. I'm talking about something that has been shown to be both efficacious and reasonably safe."
I'm not saying it is reasonable, I'm not saying is safe, I'm not saying will yield results (that yes I'm are hoping for - yet I hope they will use all the approved ways to test the results), but you asked "where" and you answered yourself ... so
Anyway, how you come to the conclusion that is an "illegal experiment", please tell us?
4. "If you're going to be insulting and sarcastic, then you should at least have the foggiest clue what you're talking about. You just gave me three links to papers about DNA methylation. We aren't talking about methylation, we're talking about telomeres!"
Yes, again, you asked "How do we know it reverses the effects of aging?" . So if you undergo a treatment for that (in this case telomerase induction), there are couple ways of finding if works:
a. a subjective one ... look in the mirror ... (sorry, I cannot stop laughing at this one)
and
b. a scientific one by reading the biological age. So run the DNA methylation tests and you find out if you have lower biological age than your chronological age ... if that the case, some of the stuff worked.
... but wait ...
"You just gave me three links to papers about DNA methylation."
and I just realized that you don't know about how to measure biological age using DNA methylation ... WOW
OK, that is fine, here is another one for you ... Sprechen Sie Deutsch? as they are from across the pond:
http://www.cygenia.c.../biological-age
Similar stuff with "about DNA methylation" that you were not sure what is for, and they need "1 ml of blood (fresh or frozen)" to run the tests.
5. "You were talking about things that are available "right now". We'd all be happy to see anything that really works for reversing aging, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Liz's AAV experiment or Fossel's plan for "curing Alzheimers" will significantly reverse aging, or do anything, for that matter. I hope that they will work, but at this point, that's all that can be said."
OK, so your point is? What is the alternative? I asked you that before. Yes, this small start is not well documented, but it is something. I hope they will be doubled by Fossel with their FDA path. But again, the alternative is?
6. As for your claims again and again that there is no data/studies to support TL and AD?, did you ever do a Google search and read?
Let me help you again:
Telomere Shortening a Cause of Alzheimer's Disease?
http://www.medscape....warticle/853530
http://archneur.jama...ticleid=2452064
... there are more things to read + compute, if you really want ...
as extra, do a search for "telomerase induction" and start reading.
https://www.google.c...erase induction
(avoid the blogs, go just for studies, also use Google Scholar)
7. And here is the deal, as seems like whenever somebody contradict you, you throw in "insulting" thing.
You need to work on that, please.
You need to read and document yourself more and post things that have logic based on studies, not on personal preferences.
8. And to FINISH this discussion, because I'm tired to provide things that you do not bother to read/compute, here is a small proof that I'm not a hypocrite.
I do support any meaningful and serious effort in this reverse aging field, just that for past years I grew very wary of what SENS is doing. It is strange, as it should've be the opposite.
Attached is a scan of the letter from SENS for donating for MitoSENS campaign.
... yes it is a small sum, as I'm not rich, but I do donate to SENS and other organizations that work in this field ...
The reason why I bring this up, is not to brag, but it really bothers me that are a lot of SENS zealots out there, that hit in the head anybody else like Michael Fossel, for doing work that "messes with metabolism", while these individuals not even have read de Grey's book ... just read FA blog.
On the opposite side are people like me that support things regardless, but are very critic to a lots of things.
Yes, I do favor the most effective way of slow/reverse aging, and for past couple years studies show there are other more effective ways to attack this problem. (no they are not complete, yes we still need to remove damage, but that is not the MAIN driver of aging).
Anyway, my advise is: start learning how to use Google for meaningful search, new things appear in a half hour basis. Then start using tools like TensorFlow to model data and start using machine learning in your quest.
Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:20 AM
Posted 30 November 2015 - 04:26 AM
My "illegal" comment had to do with the fact that she had to leave the country to do the experiment legally, while alc was implying it was available now. It has nothing to do with my feeling about self-experimentation, which in fact I'm in favor of. I hope that it does something useful, and that it does nothing bad.
7. And here is the deal, as seems like whenever somebody contradict you, you throw in "insulting" thing.
You need to work on that, please.
This is really the nub of this argument, isn't it, alc? Not the fact that I can't take contradiction; of course I can, as long at I'm not being called stupid at the same time. Your sarcastic replies with their not-so-veiled implications of my ignorance and incompetence really bring out the worst in me. If you don't think that you are being insulting, then we're probably dealing with a cultural difference. If you want to be effective when dealing with others, maybe you "need to work on that". I'm not going to spend an hour responding to your last post, as that would just extend this mess. Let me know when the telomere guys have cured aging. I'll be the first in line for a treatment.
Posted 18 December 2015 - 04:28 PM
New study that support even more the telomere group.
Again, this is science not literature or essays, so we cannot take sides because we "like it" or "not like it".
Enjoy:
Experiments explain the events behind molecular 'bomb' seen in cancer cells
http://www.medicalne...ases/304273.php
Chromothripsis and Kataegis Induced by Telomere Crisis
http://www.cell.com/...8674(15)01573-1
Posted 19 December 2015 - 06:56 PM
...progressive telomere shortening hastens chromosomal aging by changing the way genes entwine with histones, so-called "epigenetic" changes. How DNA interacts with histones has enormous impact on whether genes are expressed...
http://phys.org/news...-landscape.html
...Also I feel that most here are missing a very important point in that the long telomere ends of the DNA strand curl round and affect genes closer to the centre of the strand in a epigenetic way.
So its not simply a case of trying to keep the critically short telomeres from causing 'glitches in the program'...
There are also other positive effects from longer telomeres.
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=721913
Also note that the telomerase activators in Astragalus are all the smaller molecules. The smaller the molecule; the more likely it is to penetrate the skin..?
Its also worth noting that just about all the telomerase activators block expression of NF-kB.
And that AGEs activate NF-kB...
(No, it doesnt 'needs references'. You need to go do some research and join some dots! 
)
Edited by Logic, 19 December 2015 - 07:05 PM.
Posted 20 December 2015 - 09:12 PM
Edited by Multivitz, 20 December 2015 - 09:15 PM.
Posted 22 December 2015 - 01:21 AM
sorry for the question but what about the Y chromosome ? I mean Y chromosome does not have a pair like X chromosome, and it does not have a way to repair itself (most of the chromosome come in similar pair, and when one is damaged the cell can repair itself by copyng the DNA of the other in that pair as both of the chromosomes in all other pairs are almost identical in nature. Is that one of the reason why men age faster ? Does telomerase therapy work on these ?
Posted 09 January 2016 - 03:20 AM
sorry for the question but what about the Y chromosome ? I mean Y chromosome does not have a pair like X chromosome, and it does not have a way to repair itself (most of the chromosome come in similar pair, and when one is damaged the cell can repair itself by copyng the DNA of the other in that pair as both of the chromosomes in all other pairs are almost identical in nature. Is that one of the reason why men age faster ? Does telomerase therapy work on these ?
But it's unclear which sex ages faster so we cant ascertain that males age faster or not. Although men on average have harsher lifestyles and habits and average a lower life expectancy that doesn't translate to aging.
In fact on one of Aubrey De Grey's presentations he showed that on average men spend a larger percentage of their life in good health. In addition to that when looking at compilations of men and women in their Thirties one might even deem the trend towards women aging faster (just layman's statement not meant to prove anything). Also the X or Y sex chromosomes is ultimately one of 23 pairs.
Although the X and Y could have an influence it's likely going to be eclipsed by phenomena that is universal among the 23 pairs.
Edited by Never_Ending, 09 January 2016 - 03:24 AM.
Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:33 AM
Are really telomeres a reliable cell health marker ? Im not sure and it would be interesting to know if the way some telomerase activator play is due to a stress response in a media ?
In this blog https://borjemelin.w...merase-pioneer/ the guy explain that some telomerase activator (if not mostly..) are actually toxic for the cells wich is very strange. But then We think back to the blasco study on mice using TA65 : mice lived shorter and developed liver cancer (unlike the very marketing title of the study "TA65 improve mive healthspan ...").
Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:46 PM
Yes Niner,
here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21426483
it is the most misleading title I never read.. TA65 does slightly decrease lifespan and increased liver cancer
Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:11 AM
Here is another one on TA-65. In humans, only 12 month period. Who knows what undesirable developments would arise after those 12 months...
"A Natural Product Telomerase Activator Lengthens Telomeres in Humans: A randomized, double blind and placebo controlled study."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26950204
Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:34 PM
here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21426483
it is the most misleading title I never read.. TA65 does slightly decrease lifespan and increased liver cancer
The lifespan and liver tumor results were not significant, but it sure would have looked better if the numbers had been in the opposite direction. Then the TA-65 vendors would have trumpeted the news, but it wouldn't have been any more meaningful. At least this outcome keeps the hype under control. The effects on percentage of critically short telomeres was pretty impressive. The health measures they looked at were mostly improved, some of which was significant, but most of which wasn't.
Posted 20 March 2016 - 03:12 PM
here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21426483
it is the most misleading title I never read.. TA65 does slightly decrease lifespan and increased liver cancer
The lifespan and liver tumor results were not significant, but it sure would have looked better if the numbers had been in the opposite direction. Then the TA-65 vendors would have trumpeted the news, but it wouldn't have been any more meaningful. At least this outcome keeps the hype under control. The effects on percentage of critically short telomeres was pretty impressive. The health measures they looked at were mostly improved, some of which was significant, but most of which wasn't.
Yes Niner, the raw result show a lifespan decrease : not a single one lived above the control group, and this is bad especially when you mention you improved the health factor. So there is a reason for that. And the % of lymphoma was 50% for control versus 64% for TA65 as for adenocarcinoma was found only in T65. Tumours % was 40% for control and 60% for T65.
Also others results are interesting, they used very high dose of T65 to finally increase mtert expression only in liver, lung and brain
With even some worst result than control for junb and c-myc: kidney
I connect some dots here: when we speak about telomerase activator we mainly speak about some kind of cells: the liver with milk thislte is explained to be even more potent than TA65 according to bill andrew. We understand that the kind of cells they test express well the tert gene. Heart, kidney and muscle does not react to it. Result is even worst for some expression. Most test for telomerase use CD4/CD8 cells that actually already express some telomerase.. I see a lot of financial / business / marketing things here.
Notice again I speak maybe too much raw result while you niner take more into account (and you are right) the statistical difference. I just volontary want to point out how far we are from a REAL htert activator..
To conclude im very wondering what really means the tests for average telomere lengh some people claim such as Dr Park (who work of course hand to hand with TA science)
Posted 17 April 2016 - 12:43 AM
I probably believe in telomeres regulating aging if only because having shorter telomeres accelerates progerin production.
The other thing you might want to consider in skin aging is the progerin content in cells. The skin of progeric children looks old. Lamina proteins alter gene expression and chromatin organization. That's probably why and how the laminopathies like progeria happen. Various types of cells have different laminA content. Progeria strikes the tissues that have the most laminA because progerin is an alternative splice for laminA. Makes total sense. Telomeres curiously "hang out" right near the nuclear lamina. See "Progerin reduces LAP2α-telomere association in Hutchinson-Gilford progeria."
We all make lamin proteins. Interestingly, we also all express progerin over time, which is a defective laminA, or a regulator of aging — depends on how you look at it. It's alternatively spliced throughout our lifetime, but more quickly when telomeres are shortened. UV radiation probably increases the rate, but it's happening to everyone. Everyone seems to get old, too. It's part of the program. See "Progerin and telomere dysfunction collaborate to trigger cellular senescence in normal human fibroblasts."
Methylene blue might make the progerin soluble and broccoli may help remove it, but YMMV. There's some sort of connection between progeria, telomeres, and the lamins. Not that I advise drinking fish tank cleaner, but the papers are out there.
Methylene blue + Cycloastragenol? Who knows?
Lamin proteins are underestimated determiners of gene expression. I hear lots about methylation in this thread, but almost nothing about lamins — even though it's pretty clear that "bad" lamins like progeria age and kill progeric children quickly. Progerin is some pretty bad stuff. Telomere length looks kind of epigenetic or upstream of epigenetics. As the telomere gets shorter, there is increased expression of various alternative splicings of which progerin is just one.
Maybe it's all of the above and telomeres are part of the giant feedback loop like everything usually is.
Edited by Lonjaimity, 17 April 2016 - 01:20 AM.
Posted 18 April 2016 - 06:52 PM
I probably believe in telomeres regulating aging if only because having shorter telomeres accelerates progerin production.
The other thing you might want to consider in skin aging is the progerin content in cells. The skin of progeric children looks old. Lamina proteins alter gene expression and chromatin organization. That's probably why and how the laminopathies like progeria happen. Various types of cells have different laminA content. Progeria strikes the tissues that have the most laminA because progerin is an alternative splice for laminA. Makes total sense. Telomeres curiously "hang out" right near the nuclear lamina. See "Progerin reduces LAP2α-telomere association in Hutchinson-Gilford progeria."
We all make lamin proteins. Interestingly, we also all express progerin over time, which is a defective laminA, or a regulator of aging — depends on how you look at it. It's alternatively spliced throughout our lifetime, but more quickly when telomeres are shortened. UV radiation probably increases the rate, but it's happening to everyone. Everyone seems to get old, too. It's part of the program. See "Progerin and telomere dysfunction collaborate to trigger cellular senescence in normal human fibroblasts."
Methylene blue might make the progerin soluble and broccoli may help remove it, but YMMV. There's some sort of connection between progeria, telomeres, and the lamins. Not that I advise drinking fish tank cleaner, but the papers are out there.
Methylene blue + Cycloastragenol? Who knows?
Lamin proteins are underestimated determiners of gene expression. I hear lots about methylation in this thread, but almost nothing about lamins — even though it's pretty clear that "bad" lamins like progeria age and kill progeric children quickly. Progerin is some pretty bad stuff. Telomere length looks kind of epigenetic or upstream of epigenetics. As the telomere gets shorter, there is increased expression of various alternative splicings of which progerin is just one.
Maybe it's all of the above and telomeres are part of the giant feedback loop like everything usually is.
Trichostatin A!!!
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