21 replies to this topic

[Dichotohmy]

For more background on my nexus of symptoms, read this: Zombie Hell

 

The shortened version of that long story is that I have chronic neurological, pain, sleep and fatigue issues that seem to respond positively to an anti-inflammatory intervention. By that logic, my going hypothesis is that my issues are inflammatory in nature - whether it be down to some sort of autoimmune issue, infection, or whatever, inflammation seems to be an absolutely essential factor. As such, I have tried a number of anti-inflammatory approaches with mixed success. Some flat out don't work, such as curcumin, EPA/DHA, or aspirin; others work a little bit but just aren't encouraging enough to keep in my arsenal, like N-acetyl glucosamine, N-acetyl cysteine, or C-60 olive oil.

 

On the other hand, one thing that seems to work really well, and consistently at that, is generic ibuprofen. Right now, I'm on T+1 hour of an 800mg dose of ibuprofen, after a bit of abstinence from it, and with no hyperboly, it's like being on an opiate - only better. I have that floating on a cloud feeling when I walk, that pleasurable buzz all around, and my cognitive issues - which are like a straight-up altered consciousness of brain fog, depersonalization, and excessive daytime sleepiness - feel markedly improved. Ibuprofen also doesn't have a stigma like opiate drugs, nor does it lead to nodding off while driving.

 

Curiously, other NSAIDs, like naproxen or aspirin, don't work anywhere near as well as ibuprofen for me. These drugs seem to be COX inhibitors like ibuprofen, but somehow ibuprofen is that much better. Perhaps it's because in my case, ibuprofen has a way of of getting to the brain where it's needed. As this paper suggests, ibuprofen isn't just a cox inhibitor, but likely also has effects on inflammatory microglia activation and oxidative stress:

 

http://www.neurobiol...0279-4/abstract

 

Unfortunately, the awesome startup effects from ibuprofen don't last. I also build a tolerance to ibuprofen pretty quickly, and taking 800-1000mg BID of Ibuprofen to manage my inflammatory issues, as I have done in the past, is murder on gut - causing reflux problems, IBS, and possibly causing intestinal permeability as ibuprofen is known to do. To be fair, it seems that the non-selectivity of ibuprofen, specifically the COX-1 effects, seems to cause the GI problems. I need a new mainstay that is as good.

 

Things I've tried that don't work at all:

 

- Curcumin

- Longvida ($$) curcumin

- Fish oils

- Flax oils

- Actetaminophen

- Opiates - I pretty much only get psychological effects, which tells me that combating the perception of pain does little as long as the inflammation is still there.

- THC-rich marijuana - pretty much the same story as opiates

- Dietary approaches like limiting O-6 fats, sugar, dairy, and any and all grains

- Exercise increases my neurological problems and musculoskeletal inflammation markedly, both acutely and chronically 

 

Things I've tried that work a little, but not really enough:

 

- C60

- Traumeel - a proprietary blend of herbs and botanicals from Europe that fizzles out quickly in my experience

- Cannabidiol-rich marijuana - high-CBD/little-no THC sources (like CBD oil) are promising, but offer a short duration (1-1.5 hour) and are kind of cognitively blunting for me

 

I'm not averse to a pharmaceutical approach, like a selective COX-2 inhibitor like celebrex, but I need something that's not controlled or too expensive - because one of the attractive benefits of generic ibuprofen is that I can get 550 200mg tabs of it from Amazon for $5.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 14 February 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[Flex]

This could be a reason:

Dopaminergic but Not Glutamatergic Neurotransmission Is Increased in the Striatum after Selective Cyclooxygenase-2 Inhibition in Normal and Hemiparkinsonian Rats

http://pages.jh.edu/...dam_BCPT_08.pdf

 

Since You assume that You have a chronic inflammation, You could try something that modulates (for a certain period or perhaps enduringly?) the inflammation pathways like:

 

- Paeonia suffruticosa

Moutan Cortex Radicis inhibits inflammatory changes of gene expression in lipopolysaccharide-stimulated gingival fibroblasts.

It was shown that 42 of the 643 genes up-regulated by LPS, when compared to the control, were down-regulated by the MCR treatment. Of these 42 genes,

the inflammation and immune response-related genes were especially noted, which indicates that MCR inhibits the induction of inflammation by LPS stimulation.

In addition, 33 of the 519 genes down-regulated by LPS, when compared to the control, were up-regulated by the MCR treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23086154

 

Paeonol exerts an anticancer effect on human colorectal cancer cells through inhibition of PGE₂ synthesis and COX-2 expression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25322760

 

- Scutellaria Baicalensis

Baicalin down regulates the expression of TLR4 and NFkB-p65 in colon tissue in mice with colitis induced by dextran sulfate sodium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25550915

 

Baicalin Inhibits Lipopolysaccharide-Induced Inflammation Through Signaling NF-κB Pathway in HBE16 Airway Epithelial Cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25630720

Flavocoxid, a nutraceutical approach to blunt inflammatory conditions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25242871

 

- Andrographis paniculata aka Kalmegh

Inhibitory effect of selected medicinal plants on the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines in lipopolysaccharide-stimulated human peripheral blood mononuclear cells.

...Andrographis paniculata extract demonstrated the strongest inhibition of interleukin (IL)-1β, IL-1α, and IL-6 release...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24799081

 

Andrographolide inhibits TNFα-induced ICAM-1 expression via suppression of NADPH oxidase activation and induction of HO-1 and GCLM expression through the PI3K/Akt/Nrf2 and PI3K/Akt/AP-1 pathways in human endothelial cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24998495

 

Andrographolide inhibits HMGB1-induced inflammatory responses in human umbilical vein endothelial cells and in murine polymicrobial sepsis.

RESULTS:

Post-treatment AG was found to suppress LPS-mediated release of HMGB1 and HMGB1-mediated cytoskeletal rearrangements. AG also inhibited HMGB1-mediated hyperpermeability and leucocyte migration in septic mice. In addition, AG inhibited production of tumour necrosis factor-α (TNF-α) and activation of AKT, nuclear factor-κB (NF-κB) and extracellular-regulated kinases (ERK) 1/2 by HMGB1 in HUVECs. AG also induced downregulation of CLP-induced release of HMGB1, production of interleukin (IL) 1β/6/8 and mortality.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24581270

 

- Gastrodia Elata aka Tian Ma

Gastrodiae Rhizoma : a review of biological activity and antidepressant mechanisms

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3942998/

 

p-Hydroxybenzyl alcohol prevents brain injury and behavioral impairment by activating Nrf2, PDI, and neurotrophic factor genes in a rat model of brain ischemia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21347705

 

- Glycyrrhiza glabra aka Liquorice

Licocalchone-C extracted from Glycyrrhiza glabra inhibits lipopolysaccharide-interferon-γ inflammation by improving antioxidant conditions and regulating inducible nitric oxide synthase expression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21734629

 

This is an interresting effect:

The body damages its own cells. As a consequence, the cell walls of the damaged ones, are mistakenly recognized as pathogens which triggers further inflamation responses

thus leading to a chronic state of inflammation

Tetrahydroxystilbene Glucoside Attenuates Neuroinflammation through the Inhibition of Microglia Activation

http://www.hindawi.c...cl/2013/680545/

 

However, Your cause can originate through an epigenetic alteration and this could be something radom i.e. unknown.

In my case, I cant find the root cause because Glucocorticoid receptor expression could be the reason or just a downstream target of perhaps something that is not researched...

 

There are of course many other herbs those are the ones that I´ve found

Anti-inflammatory and Antimicrobial Effects of Heat-Clearing Chinese Herbs: A Current Review

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4003708/

 

or look into  post #25 and #29

Newly natural compounds that I´ve found with interresting effects

http://www.longecity...ts/#entry681414

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look into

 

- HMGB1 = does decrease Glucocorticoid receptor expression, thus increasing Glucocorticoids too much, which causes bad mood.

- Nrf2

- heme oxygenase-1

- Interleukins (il-1ß, il-6, il-8) all are afaik more or less implicated in depression

Il-8 does also decrease Glucocorticoid receptor expression

IL-1beta is implicated in anhedonia

Il-6 causes (IIRC) anxiety

 

- TNF-a

- Toll like receptors, like in the case of the inhibitions of TL-4 by Scutellaria Baicalensis.

Its (afaik) more or less the receptor family where the inflammatory molecule (like LPS) is primed and the inflammations starts.

- NOD receptors are responsible for the same, but within the cell.. or something like that

- Interferon gamma and alpha in regards of mood/depression.

 

Some is stated in those articles:

 

Post-traumatic stress disorder: revisiting adrenergics, glucocorticoids, immune system effects and homeostasis.

http://www.nature.co...cti201426a.html

 

So depression is an inflammatory disease, but where does the inflammation come from?

http://www.biomedcen...741-7015/11/200

 

Inflammatory activation is associated with a reduced glucocorticoid receptor alpha/beta expression ratio in monocytes of inpatients with melancholic major depressive disorder

http://www.nature.co...tp2013118a.html

 

A Possible Change Process of Inflammatory Cytokines in the Prolonged Chronic Stress and Its Ultimate Implications for Health

http://www.hindawi.c...wj/2014/780616/

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Please consider that those herbs do thinn the blood via different mechanisms and could have other side effects and interfere with Your medications.

It could be perhaps dangerous to mix them up, even with a time gap of a few days(.. I dont know) and the different bloodthinning effects could synergize and lead to inner bleedings.

Therefore get Yourself better propperly informed by e.g. a Herbalist, Pharmacist or a Doctor.

 

The quality of herbs or Herb extracts could vary.

Try to find a propper brand to avoid e.g. possible pollutions (heavy metals, pesticides) or whatsoever

I´m preffering Sun Ten and Sanjiu 999 because the TCM practioneers use them, but this is just my choice.

 

Edit: Excuses if out of my sloppiness some information isnt exactly addressing Your case.

I´ve collected them for me, so something could be useless for You

It would take otherwise too much time for me to sort it porpperly out and I´d rather provide more informations than less informations YNK.

 

2nd Edit: lol what a page long response^^

Edited by Flex, 15 February 2015 - 12:21 AM.

[Flex]

I believe to found some epigentic altering herbs:

Herbal and Compound derived epigenetic alterations via HDAC and others

http://www.longecity...dac-and-others/

 

Btw: Zyflamend could be either way interresting for You

 

I guess thats enough for now.

[StevesPetRat]

You can also look into IL-10 upregulation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11160331
Glycine, garlic, exercise, and some probiotics help. Remind me, are you another person whose problems started after EBV / mono?

[Dichotohmy]

This could be a reason:

Dopaminergic but Not Glutamatergic Neurotransmission Is Increased in the Striatum after Selective Cyclooxygenase-2 Inhibition in Normal and Hemiparkinsonian Rats

http://pages.jh.edu/...dam_BCPT_08.pdf

 

 

That's an interesting paper, and I'm curious if these specific results, in regards to COX-2 inhibition, were replicated in other literature. I've suspected that dopaminergic hypoactivity in the striatum and/or the limbic area of my brain is a major contributer to the psychological side of my problems. The big question is why neuroinflammation might befall this area. 

 

For example, this paper mentions a human study where depressed mood, anhedonia, and sickness behavior was induced in participants by use of a non-defined endotoxin, which boosted levels of IL-6 and TNF-A. Note the image that shows how those positive participants showed very significantly decreased activity in the left ventral striatum during anticipation of reward:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3025604/

 

I'll look into your other links as well.

 

You can also look into IL-10 upregulation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11160331
Glycine, garlic, exercise, and some probiotics help. Remind me, are you another person whose problems started after EBV / mono?

 

I've never been dignosed with EBV, and I don't really suspect I've ever had it. I've been meaning to do more reading on anti-inflammatory cytokines.
 

[penisbreath]

Resistant (potato) starch might be helpful .. it feels like a powerful anti-inflammatory to me (though drops my blood sugar too much to be used continuously) .. 

[Dichotohmy]

Resistant (potato) starch might be helpful .. it feels like a powerful anti-inflammatory to me (though drops my blood sugar too much to be used continuously) .. 

 

For the last 3 months or so, I've been using supplemental resistant starch (Bob's Red Mill unmodified potato starch) and eating more lentils and other RS1 foods. I even eat the left overs cold or lightly heated for the RS3 content.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't really gotten the magical benefits from resistant starch that anecdotal reports suggest. I think it definitely helps with digestion, regularity, and boy howdy does it make my dreams more vivid and real. On the other hand, it doesn't help with neurological or musculoskeletal inflammation for me. I also suspect that the same mechanism that drives those vivid dreams - like increased serotonin and active B-vitamin synthesis by the microbiome, makes my concentration and apathy noticeably worse - especially if I dose the potato starch during the morning or afternoon. I react similarly to taking all sorts of supplementary B-vitamins, and sublingual P-5-P alone can duplicate the REM sleep effects of resistant starch for me. 

 

I still consider potato starch a good functional food for me, in that I notice ANY effects from it, and it's cheap enough at $4 for a 24oz bag of Bob's Red Mill. 

[gamesguru]

Ginger inhibits COX-2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20837112

 

Also it always needs saying, curcumin without pepper is nothing.

[zorba990]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

Edited by zorba990, 15 February 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[Flex]

You can also look into IL-10 upregulation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11160331
Glycine, garlic, exercise, and some probiotics help. Remind me, are you another person whose problems started after EBV / mono?

 

Youre right, found this too:

Allium sativum (garlic) suppresses leukocyte inflammatory cytokine production in vitro: potential therapeutic use in the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease.

RESULTS:

Monocyte interleukin (IL)-12 production was inhibited significantly in the presence of low concentrations of garlic extract (>or=0.1 microg/ml total protein). Monocyte IL-10 production increased significantly and monocyte tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), IL-1alpha, IL-6, IL-8, T-cell interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), IL-2, and TNF-alpha decreased significantly in the presence of >or=10 microg/ml garlic extract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12210145

 

@Dichotohmy

 

You can check easily and cheap whether Youre responding to interleukines, given that it enters the Blood-Brain-Barrier & etc.
 

[penisbreath]

 

Resistant (potato) starch might be helpful .. it feels like a powerful anti-inflammatory to me (though drops my blood sugar too much to be used continuously) .. 

 

For the last 3 months or so, I've been using supplemental resistant starch (Bob's Red Mill unmodified potato starch) and eating more lentils and other RS1 foods. I even eat the left overs cold or lightly heated for the RS3 content.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't really gotten the magical benefits from resistant starch that anecdotal reports suggest. I think it definitely helps with digestion, regularity, and boy howdy does it make my dreams more vivid and real. On the other hand, it doesn't help with neurological or musculoskeletal inflammation for me. I also suspect that the same mechanism that drives those vivid dreams - like increased serotonin and active B-vitamin synthesis by the microbiome, makes my concentration and apathy noticeably worse - especially if I dose the potato starch during the morning or afternoon. I react similarly to taking all sorts of supplementary B-vitamins, and sublingual P-5-P alone can duplicate the REM sleep effects of resistant starch for me. 

 

I still consider potato starch a good functional food for me, in that I notice ANY effects from it, and it's cheap enough at $4 for a 24oz bag of Bob's Red Mill. 

 

 

Yeah, the starch is strange and unpredictable. Often, it can make me sluggish and apathetic as well, particularly during the day. However, I find it tremendously potentiates caffeine, so will combine the two at times. Sometimes if I dose at night (1-3 tablespoons) I get a very powerful increase in mental clarity, though perhaps it's interacting with something in my stack. I found Potato starch + Uridine + Fish oil to be very potent (almost too potent). 

[Flex]

I´ve read this on reddit/science today:

Scientists uncover marvel molecule that could lead to treatments for inflammatory diseases

....showed how the molecule MCC950 can suppress the 'NLRP3 inflammasome

....MCC950 is blocking what was suspected to be a key process in inflammation. There is huge interest in NLRP3 both among medical researchers and pharmaceutical companies..

 

....So far, the results have shown great promise for blocking multiple sclerosis in a model of that disease,

as well as in sepsis, where in response to bacteria, potentially fatal blood poisoning occurs.

However, the target for MCC950 is strongly implicated in diseases such as Alzheimer's disease,

atherosclerosis, gout, Parkinson's disease and rheumatoid arthritis, which means it has the potential to treat all of these conditions...

http://www.scienceda...50216131119.htm

 

NLRP3 = NOD-like receptor as stated in  post #2

http://en.wikipedia....D-like_receptor

 

Found those OTC´s that also block NLRP3.

I wonder why the Scientists/Journal didnt mentioned them.

So it might work or not.. dunno

Anyway:

 

Anti-inflammatory compounds parthenolide and Bay 11-7082 are direct inhibitors of the inflammasome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20093358

parthenolide is derived from Feverfew (Tanacetum parthenium)

 

Natural Compounds and Aging: Between Autophagy and Inflammasome

http://www.hindawi.c...ri/2014/297293/

See table:

http://www.hindawi.c...14/297293/tab3/

[HighDesertWizard]

This is a great thread, but it's missing any reference to the Cholinergic Antiinflammatory Pathway, our most significant, Innate anti-inflammatory pathway known at this date...

 

I've created an 8 slide presentation about it that provides a high level view of it here.

 

I established a forum thread about the the science a few years ago...

 

Vagus Nerve, Heart Rate Variability, Cholinergic Antiinflammatory Pathway Nexus

[AlexCanada]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

 

I have various similar issues to the op. I was wondering what your opinion might be on this. I been having low cortisol, very very low testosterone, very low estrogen, low LH. And I been having some kind of infection, nail fungus, fungus on back and shoulder.   The infection... whatever it might be would it be more likely due to low cortisol and adrenal burnout leaving me susceptible to infection or would the infection be more likely causing various severe problems? depression, intense brain fog, memory issues, fatigue, anhedonia, severe food sensitivities, body chills, low pulse, etc.

 

Wish I could better articulate but it's a really especially bad day for me.

Edited by AlexCanada, 04 June 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[zorba990]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

I have various similar issues to the op. I was wondering what your opinion might be on this. I been having low cortisol, very very low testosterone, very low estrogen, low LH. And I been having some kind of infection, nail fungus, fungus on back and shoulder. The infection... whatever it might be would it be more likely due to low cortisol and adrenal burnout leaving me susceptible to infection or would the infection be more likely causing various severe problems? depression, intense brain fog, memory issues, fatigue, anhedonia, severe food sensitivities, body chills, low pulse, etc.

Wish I could better articulate but it's a really especially bad day for me.

A true systemic fungal issue indicates fairly severe immune issues to me. Have you tested anything in this realm? Some people report success with high dose cellulase enzymes for that kind of condition e.g.

http://www.iherb.com...14&sr=null&ic=1

[AlexCanada]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

 

 

The calcium Pantothenate sublingual would it behave in any way like an antacid the way normal calcium supplements do? I am trying to avoid that since it's too easy for it to interact with other meds.  Would this form of calcium be acid neutral? 

 

The regular form of calcium seems to help me a bit at times but bit inconsistent.  Some better general sense of wellbeing accompanies it about half the time.   

 

Currently I take Pantothene  siblingual regular (non calcium) 25mg from Source Naturals past 4 days   Should this help adrenal issues? It seems like a low dose but that's how this one is packaged. Maybe I should start 2-3 a day. 

 

 

 

I am eagerly working towards trying to improve my depression and adrenal fatigue in the span of 2 weeks because I really want to visit someone special who will only be here in 2 weeks.  I hope I can make it.  I may consider short term stimulants possibly as a last resort but hopefully not :(.

 

I cannot help but think if I had physiological doses of Cortef I could start to get my life back on track.  During an ACTH stimulation test I started to feel remarkable improvement near the end. Two factors involved were cortisol levels going up from 150ish to 500 as shown on the tests and my blood sugar rising. One of those factors helped me feel more normal than I have in years.  My psychiatrist may be willing to prescribe cortef (cortisone) but only if I provide him with assuring research as he is not well versed in the subject.

 

I personally would like to be tested for Lupus and others but here in Canada the OHIP system discourages doctors from signing on to any tests. It's really sickening. Anything to save the government money at the expense of the patient's health.  Even my GP refused to do further hormone testing after my Bioavailable testosterone was 1.0.  (range of 4-17). 

 

The root cause for me at least partially is severe reaction caused by Accutane toxicity when I was 18. My life was never the same since.  There have been links to adrenal and hormone depletion along with reduction of serotonin levels + IBS and a whole host of other health conditions. 

 

But things got seriously worse 2 years ago when I was taking 500+mg of reveratrol for 3 months. This is when severe collagen loss on my face occurred and something about my mood felt even more off than before. Other factors involved some short term Pregnenolone Oral use which likely contributed. Benzo withdrawl that was too quick which caused intense anxiety and feelings of doom. And drinking from a dirty canteen which I was not aware was dirty for an extended period of time. It was really quite filthy inside. Around this time is when I started to really deteriorate.           I do feel I have some kind of infection but doctors just jerk me around.  

Edited by AlexCanada, 07 June 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[AlexCanada]

 

 

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

I have various similar issues to the op. I was wondering what your opinion might be on this. I been having low cortisol, very very low testosterone, very low estrogen, low LH. And I been having some kind of infection, nail fungus, fungus on back and shoulder. The infection... whatever it might be would it be more likely due to low cortisol and adrenal burnout leaving me susceptible to infection or would the infection be more likely causing various severe problems? depression, intense brain fog, memory issues, fatigue, anhedonia, severe food sensitivities, body chills, low pulse, etc.

Wish I could better articulate but it's a really especially bad day for me.

A true systemic fungal issue indicates fairly severe immune issues to me. Have you tested anything in this realm? Some people report success with high dose cellulase enzymes for that kind of condition e.g.

http://www.iherb.com...14&sr=null&ic=1

 

 

I had a colonoscopy and endoscopy but that didn't turn up anything except mild inflammation. But such a procedure isn't mean to detect Candida to my knowledge. Especially since after the super high dose of Magnesium used to flush the system it likely causes not much to be seen by the naked eye.  My body temperature is low too just like the above poster. 97.16 is my average usually. 

 

I have tried various anti-candida supplements including caprylic acid, DGL, Oil of Oregano and few others and they all cause some intense negative die off reactions. Immense irritability, anger, dysphoria, and this would feel endless. At a point in time I was going at it for almost a month until I could not take it much anymore and tried to give it a rest. The die off reactions really caused me to lash out at people and almost completely ruin what was left of my relationships.  It was a nightmare.  And molybdenum which is meant to help turn toxic die off into something beneficial just usually made me More and More angry somehow!  What a load of nonsense. It made me feel less absent minded but all the thoughts that I had in my head were so viciously negative. 

 

I have Fluconazole 150mg which I will start today though and see what happens. I will divide the doses to make it last. One dose cost me $18 here in Canada over the counter. 

 

If die off is too intense then I may give it a break until the month is over. To create a healing crisis when I want to visit someone in 2 weeks might be a horrible idea.  But it might help get rid of something which may not even be Candida because who knows what else is inside of me.  Some people report some rapid improvements from these anti-fungals so I hope it can hit something meaningful.    Hope I can handle the die off. 

[zorba990]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.

"- Orthostatic intolerance that has made me faceplant. Usually I manage to catch myself against a wall or door jamb, but one of these days I'm going to hurt myself. This also correlates to seeing stars when I'm feeling the fainting coming on, as well as if I simply blow my nose with force. Other dysautonomic symptoms like low body temperature (~97.0), borderline bradycardia (resting heart rate usually 40-50bpm), pre-hypertension (~130 systolic with a normal ~60-75 diastolic), intolerance to cold temperatures of any kind, hand and feet numbing and body chills on uncovered skin in temperatures under 75-degrees."

I have various similar issues to the op. I was wondering what your opinion might be on this. I been having low cortisol, very very low testosterone, very low estrogen, low LH. And I been having some kind of infection, nail fungus, fungus on back and shoulder. The infection... whatever it might be would it be more likely due to low cortisol and adrenal burnout leaving me susceptible to infection or would the infection be more likely causing various severe problems? depression, intense brain fog, memory issues, fatigue, anhedonia, severe food sensitivities, body chills, low pulse, etc.

Wish I could better articulate but it's a really especially bad day for me.

A true systemic fungal issue indicates fairly severe immune issues to me. Have you tested anything in this realm? Some people report success with high dose cellulase enzymes for that kind of condition e.g.

http://www.iherb.com...14&sr=null&ic=1

I had a colonoscopy and endoscopy but that didn't turn up anything except mild inflammation. But such a procedure isn't mean to detect Candida to my knowledge. Especially since after the super high dose of Magnesium used to flush the system it likely causes not much to be seen by the naked eye. My body temperature is low too just like the above poster. 97.16 is my average usually.

I have tried various anti-candida supplements including caprylic acid, DGL, Oil of Oregano and few others and they all cause some intense negative die off reactions. Immense irritability, anger, dysphoria, and this would feel endless. At a point in time I was going at it for almost a month until I could not take it much anymore and tried to give it a rest. The die off reactions really caused me to lash out at people and almost completely ruin what was left of my relationships. It was a nightmare. And molybdenum which is meant to help turn toxic die off into something beneficial just usually made me More and More angry somehow! What a load of nonsense. It made me feel less absent minded but all the thoughts that I had in my head were so viciously negative.

I have Fluconazole 150mg which I will start today though and see what happens. I will divide the doses to make it last. One dose cost me $18 here in Canada over the counter.

If die off is too intense then I may give it a break until the month is over. To create a healing crisis when I want to visit someone in 2 weeks might be a horrible idea. But it might help get rid of something which may not even be Candida because who knows what else is inside of me. Some people report some rapid improvements from these anti-fungals so I hope it can hit something meaningful. Hope I can handle the die off.

For someone like yourself, I could not imagine taking a prescription level anti fungal without professional liver monitoring. Calcium pantothenate did not ever act as an antiacid in my experience. Cellulase reports seems to indicate it digests many of the detox products. I suspect your gi system is irritated and the nerves need to calm down. I would think magnesium threonate would help greatly with this.

Anger and anxiety issues have to be addressed or adrenals wil continue to be drained.

>> And molybdenum which is meant to help turn toxic die off into something beneficial just usually made me More and More angry somehow!

This is not the fault of the detox, its an emotional issue surfacing because your adrenals are recovering.
Look into holotropic breathwork or some other emotional release technique to find the core issues.

Edited by zorba990, 07 June 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Dichotohmy]

What are your cortisol levels? Ever tried calcium pantothenate, pantethine, etc? How about lysine (possibility of shingles type condition)
Checked for lupus diagnosis? Mercury or other metal burdens? Toxicity exposure (including hidden infections in cavitations or appendix)
I would do more investigation to look for root causes, including psychological issues if you are open to that.
Think about when this all started and what immediately preceeded it.

BTW from your other thread the below is clsssic adrenal burnout with sodium depletion in my non medical opinion. 1/4 tsp celtic sea salt is a staple for me after runs in my quart of water as I am a salty sweater. Not the rot cause thoug but 250 mg calcium pantothenate under the tongue wil help the postural hypotension as well, but the long term solution is proper sleep and rest and elimination of the root cause of the stress and inflammation that depletes adrenal function so severely.
 

 

Sorry about abandoning this thread.

 

My cortisol curve is inverted, very low in the mornings and slightly higher come evening time. Never tried those specific forms of calcium, have supplemented other forms of calcium. Lysine has been on my list of things to try for a while. Negative ANA results for lupus, but haven't looked into it further as I understand a negative ANA isn't definitive. Haven't been tested for heavy metal toxicity, but with a chemical background, including with mercuric reagents, its possible these and other toxins could be a factor. My best hypothesis is a chronic and heavy bacterial burden, probably a tic/spider-borne disease, but no confirmation yet.

 

I don't want to sound dismissive or anything, but I really am more interested in effective treatment of symptoms at this point (like anti-inflammatories) that are sustainable (OTC NSAIDs are not healthy in the long run).

 

I agree my significant worsening last year was definitely precipitated by stimulant use to counter poor quality sleep. Still have no clue why I'm capable of refreshing sleep, but don't get it 95% of nights.

 

I have various similar issues to the op. I was wondering what your opinion might be on this. I been having low cortisol, very very low testosterone, very low estrogen, low LH. And I been having some kind of infection, nail fungus, fungus on back and shoulder.   The infection... whatever it might be would it be more likely due to low cortisol and adrenal burnout leaving me susceptible to infection or would the infection be more likely causing various severe problems? depression, intense brain fog, memory issues, fatigue, anhedonia, severe food sensitivities, body chills, low pulse, etc.

 

Wish I could better articulate but it's a really especially bad day for me.

 

 

As for fungal infection, I have very stubborn sebborheic dermatitis on my face, ears, and scalp that originated while taking daily prophylactic doses of doxycycline. I was in the military and deployed at that time, with a very poor diet due to lack of access to quality food. Some degree of gut dysbiosis is thus likely a factor for me. I never, ever had dandruff or dermatitis problems prior to this time. I've tried a lot of things and only topical hydrocortisone seems to help manage it, but by no means eliminate it. Low cortisol and other hormonal dysregulation is like a Pandora's box.

[vader]

Don't discount other causes of inflammation. Not all inflammation is caused by infections or auto-immune conditions.

 

It can be caused by toxic load from tobacco and alcohol. Then vitamin c and various chelating protocols are prudent (nac, etc.).

 

But yeah, i must conclude that ibuprofen does something to the body to decrease depression, although all my inflammatory markers are low, so I don't think it's the inflammatory pathway / COX that does it, but who knows. Maybe there is an inflammation directly in the brain as per depression papers.

[gamesguru]

hey city dwellers,

 

i was determined to find another mechanism of ibuprofen to explain vader's report, but as seconds turned to minutes, my search continued fruitlessly.. i slowly resigned myself.   my next thought was hey, maybe i've got it backwards.. ginger seems a little bit anti-depressive, so maybe all COX inhibitors are.  that's my sneaky suspicion.  sure enough, it's supported by multiplee studies.

Molecular Psychiatry (2006) 11, 680–684.

The cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitor celecoxib has therapeutic effects in major depression: results of a double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled, add-on pilot study to reboxetine

N Müller¹, M J Schwarz¹, S Dehning¹, et al.

Abstract

Signs of an inflammatory process, in particular increased pro-inflammatory cytokines and increased levels of prostaglandine E₂ (PGE₂), have repeatedly been described in major depression (MD). As cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) inhibitors inhibit the PGE₂ production and the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines, we performed a therapeutic trial with the COX-2 inhibitor celecoxib. In a prospective, double-blind, add-on study, 40 patients suffering from an acute depressive episode were randomly assigned to either reboxetine and celecoxib or to reboxetine plus placebo. After a wash-out period, 20 patients received 4–10 mg reboxetine plus placebo and 20 received reboxetine plus 400 mg celecoxib for 6 weeks. The treatment effect was calculated by analysis of variance. There were no significant differences between groups in age, sex, duration or severity of disease or psychopathology, or reboxetine dose or plasma levels. Over 6 weeks, both groups of patients showed significant improvement in scores of the Hamilton Depression Scale. However, the celecoxib group showed significantly greater improvement compared to the reboxetine-alone group. Additional treatment with celecoxib has significant positive effects on the therapeutic action of reboxetine with regard to depressive symptomatology. Moreover, the fact that treatment with an anti-inflammatory drug showed beneficial effects on MD indicates that inflammation is related to the pathomechanism of the disorder, although the exact mechanisms remain to become elucidated.

 

Curr Opin Investig Drugs. 2010 Jan;11(1):31-42.

COX-2 inhibitors as antidepressants and antipsychotics: clinical evidence.

Müller N¹.

Abstract

Antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs, predominantly serotonin and/or norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors and dopamine D2-antagonizing antipsychotic compounds, have several limitations. In addition, the exact pathophysiological mechanism leading to serotonergic, noradrenergic and dopaminergic dysfunction in psychotic disorders remains unclear. It has been postulated that an inflammatory mechanism may be involved in the pathogenesis of both depression and psychotic disorders. Furthermore, the differential activation of the enzyme indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) and of the tryptophan/kynurenine metabolic pathway, resulting in the increased production of kynurenic acid in schizophrenia, and a possible increase in quinolinic acid in depression, also may play a key role in these diseases. Such differences are associated with an imbalance in glutamatergic neurotransmission that may contribute to increased levels of NMDA agonism in depression and NMDA antagonism in schizophrenia. In addition, immunological imbalance results in the increased production of PGE2 in schizophrenia and depression, as well as increased COX-2 expression in schizophrenia. Although there is evidence supporting the hypothesis that interactions between immune system components, IDO, the serotonergic system and glutamatergic neurotransmission play a key role in schizophrenia and depression, several gaps in knowledge remain, such as regarding the role of genetics, disease course, gender and different psychopathological states. There is evidence indicating that anti-inflammatory therapy may have beneficial effects in schizophrenia and major depression (MD). COX-2 inhibitors have been tested in animal models and in preliminary clinical trials, demonstrating favorable activity compared with placebo, both in schizophrenia and MD. However, the effects of COX-2 inhibition in the CNS, as well as toward different components of the inflammatory system, kynurenine metabolism and glutamatergic neurotransmission, require further evaluation, which should include clinical trials with larger numbers of patients. The potential inflammatory mechanism in schizophrenia and MD, and the possible therapeutic advantages of targeting this mechanism in the treatment of these disorders is discussed in this review.

 

 

but this hasn't stopped me from compiling a list of interesting anti-inflammatories for the lulz:

• 2,5-Dimethoxy-4-iodoamphetamine^[1]
• indomethacin
• long-chain fatty alcohols from evening primrose oil
• cayenne
• epiisopiloturine
• solasodine
• tetrandrine
• most flavonoids
• coconut or olive oil
• fish
• tomato
• sweet potato
• arugula
• endive

to little avail, i had also toyed with the possibility of an opioidergic mechanism.

Anesth Analg. 2000 Aug;91(2):417-22.

The effect of spinal ibuprofen on opioid withdrawal in the rat.

Dunbar SA¹, Karamov IG, Buerkle H.

Abstract

This study examines the effect of spinal ibuprofen on the behavioral manifestations associated with the opioid abstinence syndrome. Rats (n = 8 per group) were infused for 5 days with morphine and then pretreated with a spinal bolus dose of ibuprofen before systemic naloxone antagonism (300 microg). Groups included ibuprofen S(+) 1. 36, 13.6, and 136 nmol, and ibuprofen R(-) 136 nmol. A separate group of saline-infused rats was given ibuprofen S(+) 136 nmol before naloxone antagonism. Ibuprofen S(+), but not R(-), dose-dependently and stereospecifically blocked opioid withdrawal hyperalgesia but did not significantly alter other signs of the opioid abstinence syndrome. We conclude that hyperalgesia associated with opioid withdrawal can be blocked by spinally administered ibuprofen, and suggest that there may be a role for spinal prostaglandins in the enhancement of nociception observed in association with the opioid abstinence syndrome.

IMPLICATIONS:

This study shows that spinal ibuprofen blocks opioid withdrawal hyperalgesia in the rat in a stereospecific fashion, implicating the likely release of spinal prostaglandins during withdrawal and their possible role as neuromodulators in the enhancement of nociception that accompanies this phenomenon.

 

cheers,

shane

Edited by gamesguru, 11 October 2016 - 12:22 AM.

[Dichotohmy]

Looks like this thread has risen again. I've actually made some significant progress since I last posted.

I tried a low dose 4-month course of prednisolone (2-4mg once daily) and this was pretty effective for ameliorating my chronic joint and muscle pain, minor but nagging tendonitis, and to a lesser extent joint and muscle stiffness. I'd say this was effective enough that I had no desire to dose ibuprofen while taking LD prednisolone, and in fact, went ibuprofen free. Unfortunately, this med didn't really touch me in a warm and fuzzy way that ibuprofen does - definitely no positive cognitive effects. Prednisolone had some minor sides like occaisional insomnia and didn't mix well with caffeine or sleep deprivation (I felt stressed out for the first time in decades when drinking too much coffee and being slightly sleep deprived on prednisoline).

The second thing I tried is high dose zinc - 150-200mg daily. Yes, those weights are elemental zinc. This one turned the lights on so to speak comparable to ibuprofen. While not being rapidly analgesic like ibuprofen, I think stichking to a higher than advised amount of zinc has sort of normalized whatever immune system quirk/reaction/feedback loop that was jacking up inflammation so inappropriately for me. Notably, I stuck to the 150-200mg daily for a few months but have since stepped down to more like 75mg daily as I feel that's getting the job done. Of note is that I had zero apparent sides from taking high doses of zinc - not even nausea really. I suspect I was zinc deficient and have problems absorbing minerals. While i've never tested zinc, I have tested iron and magnesium and was deficient and low for those two respectively.

I'm now able to stick to around 400mg of ibuprofen once daily, even if relatively physically active, which is pretty big because I was formerly using like 1200mg daily and even more if I was physically active.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 11 October 2016 - 04:38 AM.