52 replies to this topic

[playground]

Background:

 

Whilst researching NGF for neuropathy / dementia i came across a Chinese meta-analysis of

64 randomised studies that made the claim that an injectable version of a traditional chinese

herbal remedy 'danhong' worked better than NGF for treating diabetic peripheral neuropathy

in human subjects.

 

(See here: http://www.sjzsyj.or...DF.jsp?id=1364)

 

Specifically, daily injections of danhong (alone) were more effective than daily intramuscular

injections of mouse NGF (alone) in treating peripheral diabetic neuropathy.

 

This is actually a problematic statement, since there's always the question of what dosage

of NGF is being compared with what dosage of danhong ?   I'm not going to get side-tracked

by this tangled argument.  Instead i'm going to accept the premise .. and proceed.

 

Prima facie, that's an odd finding.  NGF is specifically trophic of short fiber nerves.

Why should 'danhong' be better than NGF at restoring this type of nerve tissue ?

(Question A) Does danhong have neurotrophic effects ?

(Question B) Is danhong disrupting the cause of neuropathy (and hence permitting natural recovery) ?

(Question C) Is danhong doing both ?

 

The same paper made the point that NGF worked best when combined with other treatments,

like accupunture, vitamin B12, alpha-lipioc-acid (ALA), hyperbaric oxygen, etc..

 

Question 1:  if you gave NGF injections _and_ danhong injections,  would you have the _most_

effective treatment for neuropathy (relative to NGF and danhong alone) ?

 

Question 2:  So if this works for small nerve fibers in the peripheral nervous system, could it work for

more serious conditions in the central nervous system: Alzheimer's, MS, Huntington’s, etc ?

(since small nerve fibers are abundant in the CNS)

 

Question 3: The obvious question is: What is  danhong  ?

 

Answer to Question 3:

 

It's derived from a herb used in traditional chinese medicine.

Here's the wikipedia page, with a nice picture of the herb.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iza&redirect=no

 

Here's a cut and paste from the wikipedia page:

Salvia miltiorrhiza (simplified Chinese: 丹参; traditional Chinese: 丹參;

pinyin: dānshēn), also known as red sage, Chinese sage, tan shen, or

danshen, is a perennial plant in the genus Salvia, highly valued for its roots

in traditional Chinese medicine.^[2] Native to China and Japan, it grows

at 90 to 1,200 m (300 to 3,940 ft) elevation, preferring grassy places in forests,

hillsides, and along stream banks. The specific epithet miltiorrhiza means "red ochre root".

 

It's used to treat problems related to heart disease, angina, high blood pressure,

circulatory problems and stroke. 

 

(from the wikipedia page)

Salvia miltiorrhiza has been widely used in China and, to a lesser extent, in Japan,

the United States, and European countries for the treatment of cardiovascular and

cerebrovascular diseases. In China, Salvia miltiorrhiza (alone or combined with other

Chinese herb medicine) was applied to the treatment of variety of diseases such

as angina pectoris, myocardial infarction[33], hypertension[34], hyperlipidemia,

and acute ischemic stroke.,^[5][6][7]

 

But it's also an ingredient in a medicine for treating diabetes in asia

(and we know that diabetes is associated with neuropathy and dementia)

 

(from the wikipedia page)

Danshen is one of five ingredients in tangzhiqing (TZQ) used In traditional Chinese medicine for treating diabetes.

and

Salvia miltiorrhiza inhibits α-glucosidase activity.^[25] 

[NOTE: alpha-glucosidase inhibitors are used in the west as anti-diabetic drugs]

 

There's even the (inevitable) anti-cancer effect:

Dihydrotanshinone, tanshinone I, and tanshinone IIA are also under study for anti-cancer effects.^[14][15]

 

And the (less inevitable) anti-HIV effect:

For HIV, chemicals in Danshen may block the effectiveness of an enzyme, HIV-1 integrase, that the virus needs to replicate.^[27]

 

Danhong (or Danshen) seems to have a myriad, seemingly beneficial, effects.

 

It seems to have blood thinning and/or anti-clotting actions... and should not be taken with

blood thinning or anti-clotting medications.

 

From the wikipedia page:

Danshen has been shown to potentiate the effects of the common anticoagulation

drug warfarin, leading to gross anticoagulation and bleeding complications.^{[citation needed]}

Danshen should be avoided by those using warfarin.^[32]

 

 

With such a laundry list of beneficial effects, danhong must be a candidate longevity drug.

(In the sense that, if you take it, you're likely to live longer)

 

 

Answer to Question 1:

(Question 1: If you gave NGF injections _and_ danhong injections,  would you have the _most_

effective treatment for neuropathy (relative to NGF and danhong alone) ?)

 

The short answer is ... yes.

 

Title:  Effect of Mouse Nerve Growth Factor and Danhong Injection in the Treatment
of Elderly Diabetic Peripheral Neuropathy

Objective: To explore the curative effect of mouse nerve growth factor combined
with Danhong injection in treatment of elderly diabetic peripheral neuropathy(DPN).

Methods 120 cases of type 2 DPN were randomly divided into three groups(A/B/C).
Group A was treated with mecobalamine, [Vitamin B12 - should read methylcobolamine]
Group B with mNGF and
Group C with mNGF and Danhong injection.
The changes of blood rheology, nerve conduction velocity and clinical symptoms were
observed before and after treatment.

Results: The clinical symptoms,blood rheology,motor nerve conduction velocity(MNCV),
sensory nerve conduction velocity(SNCV)in group C had more significant improvement
than those in Group A and Group B group(P0.05).
The clinical symptoms,MNCV and SNCV in group B had more significant improvement
than those in group A(P0.05).

Conclusion: Mouse nerve growth factor combined with Danhong injection is effective in treating DPN

 

source: http://en.cnki.com.c...BU201211006.htm

 

 

So that leaves just Question 2:

 

Question 2:  So if this [ie. danhong + NGF] works for small nerve fibers in the peripheral nervous system,

could it work for more serious conditions in the central nervous system: Alzheimer's, MS, Huntington’s, etc ?

(since small nerve fibers are abundant in the CNS)

 

Naturally, this question is of vital importance to any current dementia suffers.

And of particular interest to those (of us) who wish to see themselves  compos mentis  until

well beyond their 100th birthday

 

Probably, there is research on this being carried out right now somewhere in China.

It seems that the use of danhong for treating neuropathy started around 2013;

the first animal studies seem to have started then.

We already have a study looking at NGF plus danhong for neuropathy (as cited above)

Probably, someone's had the same idea as me, and is actively looking at NGF and

danhong for dementia right now.

 

I would like to dig out research papers to answer Question 2.

Probably most of these papers are written in Chinese and wont be available to us in the

west until someone translates them.

 

If the answer to question 3 is yes.  This treatment could be available relatively quickly

since danhong is a herb and can be purchased form Chinese herbal suppliers.  Plus,

both danhong and NGF are both in the Chinese national drug list, so presumably it

should be possible ...   somehow,  someway ... to buy the both of these drugs.

 

And if the answer is yes. I'd like to find out the answers to Questions A, B & C

shown in green font at the top of this post.

 

I warmly invite any Chinese speaking members of longevity.org to join me in the pursuit of an

answer to Question 2.   If you know of any Chinese speakers that might be interested in this

pursuit i would be very grateful if you could point them this way.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by playground, 17 June 2015 - 02:14 AM.

[playground]

This paper also gives some clarity to Question 1 (above) What is Danhong?
This paper reveals that Danhong is a mix of two  herbs:
1. Danschen (the roots of Salviae miltiorrhizae Radix et Rhizoma)
2. Carthami Flos (Honghua)

The ratio of their mixture (in this paper) is:
45 grams Danschen
15 grams Honghua

(I think) I now see why danhong is called danhong
It's the dan from danschen   plus   hong from Honghua (perhaps)

 

Question 1b: What is Honghua ?

 

Answer 1b:  See these links for more information

http://www.chineseme...g/herb:hong-hua

http://www.tcmwiki.com/wiki/hong-hua

 

NOTE: This is common Safflower.

 

The paper lists the latin name as Carthami Flos

The first chinese medicine website calls it:

Flos Carthami Tinctorii

And the second chines medicine website calls it:

Hong Hua (Flos Carthami)——Xin Xiu Ben Cao

 

The wikipedia page for safflower says:

Safflower (Carthamus tintorius L.)

 

Interestingly, the wikipedia page says:

 

The defunct pharmaceutical company SemBioSys Genetics tried to

use transgenic safflower plants to produce human insulin as the global

demand for the hormone grows. Safflower-derived human insulin was

in the PI/II trials on human test subjects.^[15]

 

I've encountered articles on danhong that mention it in connection with

diabetes.  I wonder if the Honghua ingredient has the anti-diabetic properties.

 

The dosage is consistently listed as 3g to 10grams.

(of dried safflower flowers)

 

NOTE: Safflower oil is a processed oil that contains high levels of

trans-fats.  Don't be tempted into thinking that Safflower oil is necessarily

going to be good for you.   Safflower oil is made from Safflower seed.

The herbal remedies are made from the Saffflower flower.

The following paper is important because it allows a chemist to actually
create the danhong injectable from the starting dry herbs (sic).
(The entire paper, as a pdf, is linked to below)

Probably, these details will be helpful to anyone wishing to make
a more 'amateur' medicine using boiling, distillation or soaking in
alcohol (to make a tincture).

Source material and relevent quotes supplied below:

Playground

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....one.0128236.pdf

Design space development for the extraction process of
danhong injection using a monte carlo simulation method.

Quote:
Danhong injection is a botanical injection used in the treatment of coronary heart disease, an-
gina, myocardial infarction, and cerebral diseases [1]. The injection is made from Salviae mil-
tiorrhizae Radix et Rhizoma (Danshen) and Carthami Flos (Honghua) using unit operations of
extraction, concentration, ethanol precipitation, adsorption, etc

Quote:
2.1 Materials and Chemicals
Danshen was purchased from Nepstar Drugstore (Hangzhou, Zhejiang, China). Honghua
was purchased from Daily Healthy Drugstore (H
angzhou, Zhejiang, China). No specific per-
mission was required for the field studies described in this paper. The locations are neither
privately owned nor protected by the Chinese government. No endangered or protected spe-
cies were sampled
Standard substances, including rosmarinic acid, Danshensu, and lithospermic acid, were
purchased from Winherb Medical S&T Development Co., Ltd. (Shanghai, China). Salvianolic
acid B was purchased from Chengdu Biopurify Phytochemicals Ltd. (Chengdu, Sichuan
China). Hydroxysafflor yellow A was obtained from Aladdin Industrial Inc. (Shanghai, China).
Deionized water was produced using an academic water purification system (Milli-Q, Milford,
MA, USA). HPLC-grade formic acid was obtained from ROE SCIENTIFIC INC. (Newark, DE,
USA). HPLC-grade acetonitrile was purchased from Merck (Darmstadt, Germany). HPLC-
grade ammonium formate was obtained from Alfa Aesar China (Tianjin, China) Co., Ltd. All
materials were used as received without any further purification

Quote:
2.2 Procedure
After 45 g of Danshen and 15 g of Honghua were placed in a round bottom flask, water was
added. The flask then was heated using a heating jacket (TC-15, Haining Huaxing Instrument
Co. Ltd, China). After reflux extraction for a period of time, the extract was collected by filtra-
tion. If the extraction number was more than 1, water was then added to the flask after filtra-
tion to extract mixed Danshen and Honghua again. The extracts were mixed before the
measurement of active ingredient content and dry matter conten...

2.4 Analytical methods
The components Danshensu, hydroxysafflor yellow A, rosmarinic acid, lithospermic acid, and
salvianolic acid B were analyzed by HPLC according to the method reported previously [
20].  The method is briefly described as follows....
 

Edited by playground, 17 June 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[playground]

An interesting paper... the abstract deserves a few minutes of attention.

Danshen, remember, is one  of the two ingredients in danhong.

This abstract seems to be suggesting that danschen has anti-alzheimer's activity.

 

 

Bioorg Med Chem Lett. 2014 Feb 1;24(3):708-16. doi: 10.1016/j.bmcl.2013.12.042. Epub 2013 Dec 18.

Danshen diversity defeating dementia.

Hügel HM¹, Jackson N².

Abstract

Salvia miltiorrhiza (danshen) is widely used for the clinical treatment of cerebral ischemia and cardiovascular diseases. Its diverse molecular makeup of simple and poly hydroxycinnamic acids and diterpenoid quinones are also associated with its beneficial health effects such as improved cognitive deficits in mice, protection of neuronal cells, prevention of amyloid fibril formation and preformed amyloid fibril disaggregation related to Alzheimer's disease. Whilst the in vitro studies have therapeutic promise, the anti-dementia effect/impact of danshen however depends on its absorbed constituents and pharmacokinetic properties. Both the water and lipid danshen fractions have been shown to have low oral bioavailability and at physiological pH, the polyphenolic carboxylate anions are not brain permeable. To tap into the many neuroprotective and other biological benefits of danshen, the key challenge resides in developing danshen nanopharmaceuticals, semi-synthetic pro-drug forms of its constituents to improve its biocompatability, that is, absorption, circulation in bloodstream and optimization of BBB permeability.

 

 

Obviously, i find the stuff in red very interesting.

I'd like to find the evidence that danschen has these effects on amyloid fibril formation and disaggregation.

 

As for the stuff in blue,  i'm not going to be surprised to find out that they have already filed for a patent

for administering danshen in 'nanopharmaceuticals'.   Note also that they're saying "semi-synthetic

pro-drug forms of it's constituents".  They either have a patent or they want a synthetic version so they

can get a patent.  You can not patent natural drugs, no patent, no money.   So instead they will prefer

to find some analogue of the active ingredient(s).  These analogues will probably have secondary

effects and toxicity will probably be much greater than the original natural product. (This is the essential

story of how valium came into being; it's just a synthetic version of vitamin B3, niacin.  It's hundreds of

times more expensive than niacin, works less well, and is much more toxic)

 

The fact that these people are signalling a 'pursuit of patent' intention makes the claims in this abstract

suspect.  The details they claim might be more of the nature of a justification, or advance marketing,

rather than statements of fact.  Does danshen really have these effect on amyloid ?  Are there really

issues surrounding danshen and the BBB ?

 

Pharma companies routinely lie and abuse research results in the quest for profit.

You can't take the research results of western pharmaceutical companies as gospel.

 

For any research result found by company X, we need to wait for verification from separate labs.

(preferably unconnected, independent labs in asia)

 

However, it would be interesting to see if there really _is_ some basis for saying that danschen

has these effects on amyloid fibril formation and disaggregation.  Sounds a bit too good to be true.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by playground, 17 June 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[Ark]

I'm interested in a group buy or source, thanks for the data.

[Flex]

I'm interested in a group buy or source, thanks for the data.

 

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46112.html

- Its usually concetrated (5:1) It saves money but could lead to overdoses (bleeding and so on) !

 

I would therefore highly suggest a miligram balance (~20 bucks)

 

For EU based users:

http://www.sanjiao.n...kruidenformules

 

http://castleblackhealth.com/

But theyre sending random manufacturers even when a certain brand-name products are displayed like Sun Ten or Sanjiu999

 

or look for hebals supplements for Horses or just animals ^^

No joke ! When the law is strict then vendors are bypasing it with something like this.

 

Edit:

Dan Shen releases dopamine but its for me rather weak

 

a few infos about the effects of dan shen:

http://www.longecity...ff/#entry690227

Edited by Flex, 18 June 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[playground]

 

I'm interested in a group buy or source, thanks for the data.

 

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46112.html

- Its usually concetrated (5:1) It saves money but could lead to overdoses (bleeding and so on) !

 

I would therefore highly suggest a miligram balance (~20 bucks)

 

For EU based users:

http://www.sanjiao.n...kruidenformules

 

http://castleblackhealth.com/

But theyre sending random manufacturers even when a certain brand-name products are displayed like Sun Ten or Sanjiu999

 

or look for hebals supplements for Horses or just animals ^^

No joke ! When the law is strict then vendors are bypasing it with something like this.

 

Edit:

Dan Shen releases dopamine but its for me rather weak

 

a few infos about the effects of dan shen:

http://www.longecity...ff/#entry690227

 

 

A+  Flex.

 

good work.

 

 

So now, both ingredients for danhong are available as herbal tablets from the shop in Atlanta specified by Flex.

 

honghua:

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46157.html

 

danshen:

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46112.html

 

I didn't have much luck  finding the same ingredients at the dutch shop.

But that's probably due to the fact that chinese herbs have multiple names.

So perhaps i've looked under the wrong name.

 

Playground.

 

 

 

Edited by playground, 18 June 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[Flex]

Youre welcome

 

have to add that You´ve made an exelent report.

 

I´ve tottaly forgot to mention this shop:

http://internet-apot...m/hong-hua.html

 

Google is sometimes not able to find some shops even when they are in Your own Country, so its sometimes difficult to search it with normal/usual terms.

 

The downside is that there arent any extracts, which makes them relative expensiver and a bit inconvenient to preparate i.e. cooking + perhaps with alcohol for the lipophilic fraction.

Whereas granules are usually just dissolved in water.

 

Btw: Herbasinica cultivates some plants on their own in china + they, and perhaps Caelo, deliver a Certificate of Analysis about some pollutants e.g. heavy metals.

http://herbasinica.de/

Edited by Flex, 18 June 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[playground]

Youre welcome

 

have to add that You´ve made an exelent report.

 

I´ve tottaly forgot to mention this shop:

http://internet-apot...m/hong-hua.html

 

Google is sometimes not able to find some shops even when they are in Your own Country, so its sometimes difficult to search it with normal/usual terms.

 

The downside is that there arent any extracts, which makes them relative expensiver and a bit inconvenient to preparate i.e. cooking + perhaps with alcohol for the lipophilic fraction.

Whereas granules are usually just dissolved in water.

 

Btw: Herbasinica cultivates some plants on their own in china + they, and perhaps Caelo, deliver a Certificate of Analysis about some pollutants e.g. heavy metals.

http://herbasinica.de/

 

Thank you very much Flex.

That's excellent. :-)

 

I have emailed herbasinica for prices.

http://herbasinica.de/

 

I notice that the freiburg shop is offering both herbs for prices that

are clearly cheaper than the Atlanta acupuncture shop. 

Both herbs for less than 100 euros per kilo.

Which might be a useful tip for buyers (even those in America):

 

Hong Hua in Germany
http://internet-apot...m/hong-hua.html

Dan Schen in Germany
http://internet-apot...m/dan-shen.html

 

Thanks again Flex

 

Playground.

 

 

 

[playground]

Bioorg Med Chem Lett. 2014 Feb 1;24(3):708-16. doi: 10.1016/j.bmcl.2013.12.042. Epub 2013 Dec 18.

Danshen diversity defeating dementia.

Hügel HM¹, Jackson N².

Abstract

Salvia miltiorrhiza (danshen) is widely used for the clinical treatment of cerebral ischemia and cardiovascular diseases. Its diverse molecular makeup of simple and poly hydroxycinnamic acids and diterpenoid quinones are also associated with its beneficial health effects such as improved cognitive deficits in mice, protection of neuronal cells, prevention of amyloid fibril formation and preformed amyloid fibril disaggregation related to Alzheimer's disease. Whilst the in vitro studies have therapeutic promise, the anti-dementia effect/impact of danshen however depends on its absorbed constituents and pharmacokinetic properties. Both the water and lipid danshen fractions have been shown to have low oral bioavailability and at physiological pH, the polyphenolic carboxylate anions are not brain permeable. To tap into the many neuroprotective and other biological benefits of danshen, the key challenge resides in developing danshen nanopharmaceuticals, semi-synthetic pro-drug forms of its constituents to improve its biocompatability, that is, absorption, circulation in bloodstream and optimization of BBB permeability.

 

 

I'm basically searching for any research papers that might back up the claim of the above paper that

Danshen, one of the constituents of danhong, might have anti-amyloid activity (and hence might

have anti-dementia activity)

 

 

source:  http://www.nrronline...4891_182228.pdf

 

Title:

Compound Danshen tablets downregulate amyloid protein precursor

mRNA expression in a transgenic cell model of Alzheimer’s disease

Abstract:

After gene mutation, the pcDNA3.1/APP595/596 plasmid was transfected into

HEK293 cells to establish a cell model of Alzheimer's disease. The cell model was treated

with donepezil or compound Danshen tablets after culture for 72 hours. Reverse

transcription-PCR showed that the mRNA expression of amyloid protein precursor

decreased in all groups following culture for 24 hours, and that there was no significant

difference in the amount of decrease between donepezil and compound Danshen tablets.

Our results suggest that compound Danshen tablets can reduce expression of the mRNA for

amyloid protein precursor in a transgenic cell model of Alzheimer's disease,

with similar effects to donepezil.

 

 

Question: What's donepezil ?

 

The wikipedia page says:   https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Donepezil

 

Donepezil, marketed under the trade name Aricept by its developer Eisai and partner Pfizer,

and now sold as a generic by multiple suppliers, is a centrally acting reversible

acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.^[1] Its main therapeutic use is in the palliative treatment of Alzheimer's disease.^[2]

 

But, aside from acting as a nootropic, it doesn't seem to work for Alzheimer's:

 

Currently, no definitive proof shows the use of donepezil or other similar agents alters the course

or progression of Alzheimer's disease (AD). However, 6 to 12-month controlled studies have

shown modest benefits in cognition and/or behavior.^[3]

 

(However, i'm willing to bet that the Pharma Companies, Eisai and Pfizer, were making bold claims

as to it's effectiveness before the patent ran out)

 

Summary

 

There  is some experimental evidence that danshen reduces some pre-cursor protein that

is used in amyloid formation.  It's notable that Donepezil also has this effect on this pre-cursor protein.   

It's notable because, if activity against this protein was an indication of anti-amyloid action, then....

why doesn't donepezil work against Alzheimer's ?  According to the Cochrane review, donepezil

doesn't even slow down Alzheimer's progression.

 

I regard this as rather weak evidence.

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 12:26 AM.

[playground]

There is much stronger evidence for danshen's anti-amyloid activity here:

 

source: http://www.mdpi.com/2218-273X/5/2/505

(you can download the pdf from that page)

 

title: Anti-Amyloidogenic Properties of Some Phenolic Compounds

 

abstract: A family of 21 polyphenolic compounds consisting of those found naturally in danshen

and their analogues were synthesized and subsequently screened for their anti-amyloidogenic

activity against the amyloid beta peptide (Aβ₄₂) of Alzheimer’s disease. After 24 h incubation with

Aβ₄₂, five compounds reduced thioflavin T (ThT) fluorescence, indicative of their anti-amyloidogenic

propensity (p < 0.001). TEM and immunoblotting analysis also showed that selected compounds were

capable of hindering fibril formation even after prolonged incubations. These compounds were also

capable of rescuing the yeast cells from toxic changes induced by the chemically synthesized Aβ₄₂.

In a second assay, a Saccharomyces cerevisiae AHP1 deletant strain transformed with GFP fused to

Aβ₄₂ was treated with these compounds and analyzed by flow cytometry. There was a significant reduction

in the green fluorescence intensity associated with 14 compounds. We interpret this result to mean that

the compounds had an anti-amyloid-aggregation propensity in the yeast and GFP-Aβ₄₂ was removed

by proteolysis. The position and not the number of hydroxyl groups on the aromatic ring was found to be

the most important determinant for the anti-amyloidogenic properties.

 

 

Interestingly, this is rather new evidence. This paper was published in April 2015.  It's hot off the press.

 

In summary

 

5 compounds were found to prevent amyloid forming.

14 compounds were found to stop amyloid aggregating.

 

Presumably, then, with so many 'active' ingredients, it's best to simply take

the danshen herbal medicine,  "as is", with all it's numerous ingredients.

 

On the basis of this evidence, it looks like danshen has anti-amyloid action

and thus, potentially, anti-dementia action.

 

 

 

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 01:05 AM.

[playground]

Further details from the paper cited above:

 

title: Anti-Amyloidogenic Properties of Some Phenolic Compounds

source:  http://www.mdpi.com/2218-273X/5/2/505

 

 

 

There is some important information here, which really begs to be shared.

They have a yeast model of amyloid protein formation. 

They basically expose the yeast to these various compounds and watch to see

which samples express amyloid and to what extent.

Specifically, this graph is showing amyloid _formation_.

The best chemicals here are labelled 1 through 6.

1 is rosemarinic acid (from the common herb, rosemary)

2,3,4 are either from danshen or analogs (chemicals that look similar)

5 is Silvianolic acid B, .... from danshen.

6 is the EGCG..... from green tea.

 

The winners in this experiment are rosemary and green tea.

 

 

 

 

This graph is basically the same experiment as shown above, but the data are

arranged so  you can see the effect over time... in hours.  Again, the star performers

are rosemary and green tea(1 & 2).  'Salvianolic acid B' is from danshen (3).

 

 

 

 

In a second experiment they wanted to measure the degree to which these

compounds would inhibit amyloid  _aggregation_ (not formation).
I presume this means, how much the amyloid protein strands stick together

to form clumps.  In the baseline condition, the fluorescence values for these samples

were all around 80% .  In the graph below all these numbers are down to around 30%. 

 

To be honest, i'm not clear why the baseline numbers were around 80%

fluorescence.  Were these samples already showing aggregation and the

addition of these chemicals separated the strands ?  So these chemicals

acted like some kind of detergent,  breaking up the clumps ?

 

Note that these experiments were done in vitro (in glass culture dishes).

They may not accurately predict what happens inside someone's head.

 

But it looks as if there may be reason for thinking that the consumption of

green tea, rosemary and danshen might have anti-amyloid effects, and

perhaps anti-dementia effects.

 

To return to Question 2 (from the first post of this thread)

 

Question 2:  So if this [danhong] works for small nerve fibers in the peripheral nervous system, could it work for

more serious conditions in the central nervous system: Alzheimer's, MS, Huntington’s, etc ?

(since small nerve fibers are abundant in the CNS)

 

Answer 2: Well,.. maybe... 

provided the following conditions are true:

1.  If the results presented in this post are true of what happens inside human heads

2.  If preventing amyloid formation would prevent (or hinder) the progress of dementia.

 

It leaves me wondering how danhong works to relieve diabetic peripheral neuropathy.

Do amyloid plaques affect the peripheral nervous system as well as in the brain ?

Is this how danhong works to relieve peripheral neuropathy ?  If so, then perhaps a

better treatment of peripheral neuropathy would be gallons of green tea and bushels

of rosemary.

 

Danhong is known to thin the blood and prevent blood clots. 

It might be via this mechanism that danhong sponsors healing of diabetic peripheral nerves.

(That is, if diabetic peripheral neuropathy is essentially a problem of blood circulation).

In the case of vascular dementia (where circulatory problems cause nerve tissue

to become starved of oxygen and nutrients) danhong might help to feed these

tissues save them from starvation or suffocation.

 

A definite maybe.

 

Anybody looking for a long term dietary solution to the problem of dementia might

reasonably consider making rosemary a regular addition to meals and might consider

switching from drinking coffee/tea/soda to drinking green tea. 

 

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[playground]

Rosmarinic acid, it seems, occurs in many kitchen herbs.

It occurs in the herb Rosemary, as you would expect, but Rosemarinic acid is not

particularly abundant in Rosemary.

 

It occurs in these herbs: 

 

    Mints (all varieties, but especially spearmint)

    Rosemary -
    Sage
    Lemon balm
    Oregano
    Peppermint
    Thyme
    Basil
    Marjoram
    Perilla

 

The richest sources of Rosmarinic Acid are Spearmint (Mentha spicata)  and Lemon Balm (Melissa officinalis)

 

Here is a paper that looked specifically at which herbs contained the most Rosmarinic Acid

 

source:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3307200/

 

title:  Comparative study of rosmarinic acid content in some plants of Labiatae family

 

abstract:

Background: Plants of Labiatae are used in traditional medicine and phytotherapy.

Rosmarinic acid (RA) is a phenolic compound which is found in many genus of Labiatae and exhibits important biological activities.

Materials and Methods:  In this investigation, RA contents of 29 species of Labiatae named Salvia officinalis, Salvia limbata, Salvia virgata, Salvia hypoleuca, Salvia macrosiphon, Salvia choloroleuca, Melissa officinalis, Origanum vulgare, Lavandula angustifolia, Rosmarinus officinalis, Thymus daenensis, Thymus citriodorous, Thymus pubescens, Thymus vulgaris, Zataria multiflora, Mentha piperita, Mentha pulegium, Mentha longifolia, Mentha spicata, Mentha aquatica, Mentha crispa, Perovskia artemisoides, Zhumeria majdae, Satureja hortensis, Satureja khuzistanica, Satureja bachtiarica, Satureja atropatana, Satureja mutica and Satureja macrantha were determined by using high-performance liquid chromatographic method.

 

Results:The results showed that RA content in different species of Labiatae was 0.0-58.5 mg g-1 of dried plants.

The highest amount of RA was found in Mentha species especially M. spicata. (Spearmint)

 

Conclusion: M. spicata can be considered as a new source of rosmarinic acid.

 

 

The full table of results is here:

 

 

 

All values are (obviously) between 0.1% and 0.5%  of the dried herbs (by weight)

You'd have to eat several hundred grams of herbs to get just 10mg of rosmarinic acid.

(that's dry weight.... fresh weight.... approximately a kilo of fresh herbs... to get 10mg)

 

Examine.com tells us that rosmarinic acid has been used as an anti-allergy supplement.

Common dosages were 200mg to 300mg.

 

LifeExtension.com sells rosmarinic acid supplements with Butterbur extract.

It contains 50mg of rosmarinic acid

It's intended to be for allergy suffers.

This costs $50 for 60 capsules.

 

See here:  http://www.ebay.co.u...=item41980cb84a
 

Would 50mg be enough to prevent amyloid formation ?

I don't know.

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

It seems to me that green tea and rosemary supplementation are significant contributors to stable mental health, when consumed over a lifetime. So as herbal supplements, I think they have value to healthy individuals. But I don't think they're potent enough to make much of an impact once amyloid deposition has reached a sufficient level to induce MCI or early Alzheimer's. At that point, if in fact amyloid is the catalyst that causes a chain reaction in pathology, then clearing it aggressively could be therapeutic. Longvida, EGB761, and (once we figure the out safe dosage) Nilvadipine are more suitable for that purpose.

 

Ultimately, there are a few goals which absolutely must be addressed in order to forestall Alzheimer's progression indefinitely: (1) repair the BBB tight junction so it no longer leaks, (2) provide new neurons every so often, and (3) teach the immune system to attack both amyloid and phosphotau. #1 might be doable today with mesenchymal stem cell therapy and vitamin K2, if the Indian studies on vascular dementia on TBI are any clue. #2 might be solved by NGF and/or its precursors, and we have clear PET evidence of effectiveness. #3 is in the works for both plaque species.

 

However, the amyloid antibody trials have been marred by brain swelling in APOE4 positive patients. Granted, this would be an expected effect of upregulating an autoimmune response, and may be manageable with other drugs. Cognitive decline continued anyway, but much less rapidly in the high dose group (and we have no reason to believe that these patients were attempting to fix #1 or #2). Meanwhile, the phosphotau vaccine trial is lazily entering phase 2. My guess is that there will be plaque vaccines within the next several years, but they'll only approve them for use in late stage cases, which would be virtually useless; the solution, as usual, will be to visit a banana republic to receive the vaccines.

 

It's phosphotau, first and foremost, that makes the difference between someone who is forgetful, and someone who cannot function in society. Poor short term memory is easily addressed with smart phones. We can restore lost blood vessels and neurons to some effect, and use a wide array of supplements to get the most out of the neurons we already have. With aggressive therapy, it may be possible to remove amyloid to such an extent that it's no longer a significant player in the disease process. But phosphotau is the one thing we can't yet treat with any efficacy at all. Longvida has been shown to disaggregate it, but with less effectiveness for the larger (dimerized) versions which exert the largest prodementia effect. And it has no effect on total phosphotau: apparently, once disaggregation has occurred, the fragments just sit there and accumulate, because unlike amyloid, they're too big to exit via the BBB. (So maybe, ironically, we should not endeavor to repair BBB leaks until after phosphotau clearance.) The only known agents which can fully disaggregate and dispose of phosphotau aggregates are the microglia. But they don't see it as an enemy, hence the vaccine approach.

 

[playground]

hi RG,

 

RE: clearing up amyloid after it has formed.

 

i'm quoting from the abstract of a paper on danshen (danshen is one of the two herbs in danhong)

 

 

Bioorg Med Chem Lett. 2014 Feb 1;24(3):708-16. doi: 10.1016/j.bmcl.2013.12.042. Epub 2013 Dec 18.

Danshen diversity defeating dementia.

Hügel HM¹, Jackson N².

Abstract Salvia miltiorrhiza (danshen) is widely used for the clinical treatment of cerebral ischemia and cardiovascular diseases. Its diverse molecular makeup of simple and poly hydroxycinnamic acids and diterpenoid quinones are also associated with its beneficial health effects such as improved cognitive deficits in mice, protection of neuronal cells, prevention of amyloid fibril formation and preformed amyloid fibril disaggregation related to Alzheimer's disease. Whilst the in vitro studies have therapeutic promise, the anti-dementia effect/impact of danshen however depends on its absorbed constituents and pharmacokinetic properties.

 

The paper discussed in post #11 (of this thread) seems to show that danshen, green tea

and rosmarinic acid disaggregate amyloid and stop it forming.

 

It might be worth considering adding the Rosmaric Acid and Butterbur Extract tablets (50mg rosmarinic acid)

to your Longvida regime.   There's no toxicity with Rosmarinic Acid.     It may help keep the wolf from the door.

 

Here's a link:

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item41980cb84a

 

 

I recommend this paper.  I strongly suspect it will hansomly repay

an investment of 15 to  30 minutes reading the introduction and discussion.

 

title: Anti-Amyloidogenic Properties of Some Phenolic Compounds

source:  http://www.mdpi.com/2218-273X/5/2/505

(You can download the pdf from that site)

 

 

Playground.

 

 

Edited by playground, 19 June 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

As always, I think it comes down to bang for the buck. That LEF rosmarinic acid supplement costs about 4 times the same amount of Longvida. It's not that it doesn't work; based on your paper, I would say that it does. But Longvida has in vivo amyloid data from mice (and some mental performance data in humans), whereas the study above is in vitro. Dr. Trutt has some shocking with-or-without curcumin images here. Mouse data including amyloid and phosphotau HPLC, and memory performance analysis, is presented in this study. Longvida is profoundly destructive to amyloid. It also disaggregates phosphotau (for example, to monomers instead of dimers), although it does not reduce total phosphotau because evidently even the monomers cannot traverse the BBB. The worst side effect of Longvida is that it might destroy most of your tumors, which is a double-edged sword if you want them to remain susceptible to curcuminoid chemotherapy if they come back. (My own theory is that it's better to put an aggressive tumor on welfare, supplying it with its own glycoloysis products for free, so it need not generate them autonomously, thereby pushing it to evolve a dependency on protecting its environment, but that's another story in another thread.)

 

Having said all that, is there evidence that, dollar for dollar, I should be purchasing any of the substances mentioned in your study instead of Longvida? Maybe there is. I would be very interested if so.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 19 June 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[playground]

As always, I think it comes down to bang for the buck. That LEF rosmarinic acid supplement costs about 4 times the same amount of Longvida. It's not that it doesn't work; based on your paper, I would say that it does. But Longvida has in vivo amyloid data from mice (and some mental performance data in humans), whereas the study above is in vitro. Dr. Trutt has some shocking with-or-without curcumin images here. Mouse data including amyloid and phosphotau HPLC, and memory performance analysis, is presented in this study. Longvida is profoundly destructive to amyloid. It also disaggregates phosphotau (for example, to monomers instead of dimers), although it does not reduce total phosphotau because evidently even the monomers cannot traverse the BBB. The worst side effect of Longvida is that it might destroy most of your tumors, which is a double-edged sword if you want them to remain susceptible to curcuminoid chemotherapy if they come back. (My own theory is that it's better to put an aggressive tumor on welfare, supplying it with its own glycoloysis products for free, so it need not generate them autonomously, thereby pushing it to evolve a dependency on protecting its environment, but that's another story in another thread.)

 

Having said all that, is there evidence that, dollar for dollar, I should be purchasing any of the substances mentioned in your study instead of Longvida? Maybe there is. I would be very interested if so.

 

I wasn't suggesting you stop taking the Longvida tablets.

 

My suggestion was:

 

It might be worth considering adding the Rosmarinic Acid and Butterbur Extract tablets (50mg rosmarinic acid)

to your Longvida regime.

 

I should have also suggested adding EGCG tablets to your Longvida regime too.

 

In fact, maybe someone should create some tablets containing curcurmin, Rosmarinic Acid and EGCG.

Call it Amyloid-stop! ... or something like that.

Something to minimise the rate at which amyloid plaques form....  and maybe help to clear them up.

 

Playground.

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

I just meant that we all want to clear as much amyloid as possible as soon as possible for as little money as possible. So, given $10, I'd spend the whole thing on substance X, where X is the most effective at doing this. I wouldn't mix X with Y and Z, unless I was unsure which was better.

 

In this case, we have high quality data on Longvida's antiamyloid action. We have some intriguing information on the other compounds, moreso for ECGC and (unrelated) EGB761, but at the moment I'm not sure it's enough to justify replacing the Longvida.

 

As in the stock market, diversification is merely a survival strategy employed by the ignorant. So we want is to concentrate all our efforts on one or a few heavy hitters, and forget the rest.

 

Perhaps danshen etc. are among those top supplements, in terms of bang for the buck, but I haven't seen clear evidence of that yet.

 

Amyloban 3399 is the closest thing we have to a supplement purely marketed on its amyloid clearance merits. But yeah, I can see the commercial value in a broad spectrum version with several ingredients. (BTW I thought that "Amyloban" referred to its ability to "ban amyloid" from the brain, but actually amyloban (small "a") is a compound found in lion's mane mushrooms.)

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 20 June 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[playground]

Hi RG,

 

I should show you this, although, i suspect, you wont like it.

(Don't shoot the messenger)

 

This video is from nutritionFacts.org 

They seem to be suggesting that turmeric might be more effective than curcumin.

 

http://nutritionfact...-with-turmeric/

 

I'll leave you to decide whether their argument has merit, nor not.

 

I'd be interested in your view on this.

 

Playground.

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

I assume you're referring to this video. The speaker has a valid point: surely there are other antidementia compounds in tumeric (which is only 5% curcumin, at best) than curcumin in isolation. One explanation could be that the patients dissolved the tumeric in fat of some sort, enhancing bioavailability to the point where a year of daily dosing could make a meaningful therapeutic impact; while the pure curcumin was regarded as a medicine to be taken with water, and not a spice with inherent gastronomic appeal. I strongly doubt, however, that properly lipidated curcumin (as opposed to 95% pure bulk curcumin powder) would fail to demonstrate an antidementia effect. My own Lumosity-monitored experience with Longvida, which is roughly in line with rodent study results, suggests efficacy in vivo.

 

Having said that, there may well be other therapeutic compounds which I'm missing out on, so thanks for the tip! As soon as I'm done with my Longvida microtrial, I'll add tumeric back into my diet (mixed with fat); right now, I'm going to great pains not to ingest curcumin from any source, other than the 20 grams of Longvida.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 21 June 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Flex]

I´ve read that the other compounds in tumeric enhance the bioavilability of curcumin, though I wonder whether piperine is still superior.

Interrestingly Tumeric limits and enhances its bioavailability to induce a constant bloodplasma ammount of curcumin i.e. no matter how much You take.

 

I dont have any references at hand because it takes sometimes a lot of time, so I can understand if You skeptic about any mishearing & etc. If Youre very interrested about further details, ask me and i try to find them

Edited by Flex, 21 June 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[ceridwen]

My urine has turned a synthetic yellow colour since I started taking Meta Curcumin. I think that my constant blood plasma must have been over reached on 8 pumps a day and that I'm weeing some of it out.

[playground]

I assume you're referring to this video. The speaker has a valid point: surely there are other antidementia compounds in tumeric (which is only 5% curcumin, at best) than curcumin in isolation. One explanation could be that the patients dissolved the tumeric in fat of some sort, enhancing bioavailability to the point where a year of daily dosing could make a meaningful therapeutic impact; while the pure curcumin was regarded as a medicine to be taken with water, and not a spice with inherent gastronomic appeal. I strongly doubt, however, that properly lipidated curcumin (as opposed to 95% pure bulk curcumin powder) would fail to demonstrate an antidementia effect. My own Lumosity-monitored experience with Longvida, which is roughly in line with rodent study results, suggests efficacy in vivo.

 

Having said that, there may well be other therapeutic compounds which I'm missing out on, so thanks for the tip! As soon as I'm done with my Longvida microtrial, I'll add tumeric back into my diet (mixed with fat); right now, I'm going to great pains not to ingest curcumin from any source, other than the 20 grams of Longvida.

 

Yes, that video.
 

Turmeric is very inexpensive, it's so cheap ... that you could cover both bases.

Take the Longvida and take the turmeric.

 

I have a regular ritual of adding 3 heaped teaspoon fulls of powdered turmeric

to my soups/stews (added with lashings of coconut oil and organic olive oil)

I recently weighed my 3 heaped teaspoon fulls, it comes to 15 grams.

That's 15 grams across 3 or 4 meals.... i make a big pan full of  soup and eat

it for the rest of the day.

 

A key detail here, is that i boil up my veggies in water and Himalayan salt,

only after the 10 minutes of simmering, do i turn off the heat and then add

the coconut oil and olive oil.... and tumeric.  Why? 

Because oils oxidise when you cook with them,  so i don't. 

I turn off the heat and add the oils and turmeric at the very end.

 

I'm quite pleased with this 15 gram number, because i recently found out

that in India, where they've observed this turmeric-AD effect, they take

'as much as 2 grams of turmeric per day'.

source: the  nuitrionFacts.org turmeric video. 

 

Here's a top tip for you people:

I also add another oil to my soup/stews, which is black seed oil.

This has a potent anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant effects and,

according to the prophet Mohammed (blessings be upon him)

    "black seed oil cures all diseases except for death"

(Mohammed mentions black seed oil in the Koran)

 

Black seed oil is called Nigella Sativa in the science literature.

Western science is starting to wake up to it's benefits:

http://www.healthyce...es-except-death

http://www.hindawi.c...am/2013/180598/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3697190/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3985249/

 

 

I predict that the same script will be followed with Black Seed oil as was followed with

elderberry, acai, cannabis and turmeric and a hundred other products before that.

 

1) They will try to identify just one of the active compounds from the dozens that are in the raw plant.

2) They will then justify the extraction by saying they have boosted it's potency (bio-availability),

3) They will then charge hundreds of times more for the extract then it costs for the original herb.

4) They will produce fake experimental data to persuade prospective purchasers.

5) They will produce 3 or 4 different sets of experiments to convince purchasers that the lie is true.

    (The more their customers are convinced, the more loyally they will buy in future).

 

The best you can hope for, is that they are exaggerating the benefits.

At worse, their product is _less_ effective than the original fruit/herb/spice/etc.

It's a scam, basically... and it happens, time and time again.

 

....remember the black seed oil tip ....(A teaspoon per day)

 

Playground.

 

 

Edited by playground, 21 June 2015 - 11:39 PM.

[playground]

My urine has turned a synthetic yellow colour since I started taking Meta Curcumin. I think that my constant blood plasma must have been over reached on 8 pumps a day and that I'm weeing some of it out.

 

Hi Ceridwen,

 

I've been taking turmeric regularly now for .. at least the last 2 years.

I've never noticed any effect from turmeric on the colour of my 'wee'.

 

I've definitely noticed it changing the colour of my t-shirts though...

... i have about 6 tea-shirts, and 1 pair of jeans,

with yellow turmeric stains that seem 'reluctant' to come out,

... even after a few hours of joyful spinning in the washing machine.
(maybe i should start buying dye-fast yellow t-shirts)

 

However, i have noticed that b-vitamins change my 'wee'  to bright yellow.

Are you taking any B-vitamin supplements ?

 

Playground.

[ceridwen]

Yes I am taking B vitamins. Maybe that is all they are doing. My Dr put me on them due to methylation problems. I have just started taking large amounts of curcumin but I have been on the B vitamins for about 2 months now and I have only just noticed the Colour change with mega curcumin levels.

[ceridwen]

I did think about changing the colour of my nails as they are stained with curcumin but think that might attract attention to them rather than detract.

[resveratrol_guy]

I´ve read that the other compounds in tumeric enhance the bioavilability of curcumin, though I wonder whether piperine is still superior.

Interrestingly Tumeric limits and enhances its bioavailability to induce a constant bloodplasma ammount of curcumin i.e. no matter how much You take.

 

I dont have any references at hand because it takes sometimes a lot of time, so I can understand if You skeptic about any mishearing & etc. If Youre very interrested about further details, ask me and i try to find them

 

I wonder if this self-limiting aspect of tumeric is the same even if it's dissolved in ghee (clarified butter). I suspect not, in which case the low AD rate in India is simply explained by extensive chronic exposure to small amounts of curcumin which inhibit amyloid formation. But if I'm wrong, then this would suggest that that this epidemiology is explained by the hormetic effects of ingesting small amounts of lipidated tumeric (not necessarily curcumin). That would be a bombshell conclusion.

 

Playground, your advice about taking both lidated curcumin and tumeric is very sensible. I will start that after my Longvida trial is done. (I'm sticking to an extremely strict regimen because the amount of money and effort I've spent on this justify the production of defensible conclusions.) But the black seed oil studies, while they show a benefit, appear to indicate that it's inferior to aspirin with respect to limiting ischemic damage. The study on memory benefits produced results with overlapping error bars, in other words, ambiguity. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it conferred health benefits, but where's the bang for the buck?

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 June 2015 - 03:15 PM.

[Flex]

Some more infos about nigella sativa:

 

http://www.reddit.co...i/nigellasativa

 

Found in:

http://www.reddit.co...pics/wiki/index

 

Edit:

 

Better recheck claims that lack  any references. Somebody might be just mistaken.

Anyway, I cant remeber where I did read that and I´m not able to find it via my browser chronic

but here is something which might resemble to my claims:

 

Recent Developments in Delivery, Bioavailability, Absorption and Metabolism of Curcumin: the Golden Pigment from Golden Spice

 

Another study conducted in freely moving rats showed that administration of curcumin (500 mg/kg, p.o.) resulted in 1% bioavailability of curcumin in rat plasma [96]. It has been also observed that oral administration of curcumin (1,000 mg/kg) in rats showed 15 ng/mL in blood plasma at 50 minutes [97]. In contrast to rodents, oral dosing of 4-8 g of curcumin in humans showed peak plasma levels of 0.41-1.75 µM after 1 hour of dosing [98]. Similarly, in a human clinical trial, 3.6 g of curcumin via oral route was found to produce a plasma curcumin level of 11.1 nmol/L after an hour of dosing [99].

 

However, it has been found that 10 mg/kg of curcumin given intravenous in rats gave a maximum serum curcumin level of 0.36 µg/mL, whereas a 50-fold higher curcumin dose administered orally gave only 0.06±0.01 µg/mL maximum serum level in rat [96]. A very recent study by Sun et al. [69] showed that intravenous administration of unformulated curcumin to rats showed better availability of curcumin in blood plasma. The concentration was 6.6 µg/mL of blood plasma when administered 2 mg/kg through tail vain [69]. These studies suggest the role of route of administration on achievable serum levels of curcumin and also the comparison of serum level in rodents and humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3918523/

 

 

 

Edited by Flex, 22 June 2015 - 09:52 PM.

[Flex]

 

I'm interested in a group buy or source, thanks for the data.

 

http://www.acuatlant...ms-p-46112.html

- Its usually concetrated (5:1) It saves money but could lead to overdoses (bleeding and so on) !

 

I would therefore highly suggest a miligram balance (~20 bucks)

 

For EU based users:

http://www.sanjiao.n...kruidenformules

 

http://castleblackhealth.com/

But theyre sending random manufacturers even when a certain brand-name products are displayed like Sun Ten or Sanjiu999

 

or look for hebals supplements for Horses or just animals ^^

No joke ! When the law is strict then vendors are bypasing it with something like this.

 

Edit:

Dan Shen releases dopamine but its for me rather weak

 

a few infos about the effects of dan shen:

http://www.longecity...ff/#entry690227

 

 

Also forgett to mention this:

 

I´ve ordered also from the ebay user dullmeat (?) from the UK

Her shop is also found in google

http://www.tcm4u.co....Path=Categories

 

But I have some concerns because their herbs are send in extra refilled plastic bags. I asked them about a certificate of analysis and the manufacturer but they only told me that it was Koda ltd...

I cant help but I doubt this somehow or to put it in another way: I´m sceptic

 

Would rather buy from

http://www.aliexpres...1889270237.html

instead of TCM4U if the customs werent that problematic

Edited by Flex, 24 June 2015 - 10:02 PM.

[playground]

Good work Flex, :-)

 

This shop is called TCM4U.

They were previously called ForYourWellbeing

 

This shop is based in the UK.  Their email address is:

Admin@ForYourWellbeing.co.uk

 

They are on ebay so you can pay by paypal (if you want to)

 

They have danshen and honghua.

 

dan shen
http://www.tcm4u.co....oducts/herb-020

hong hua
http://www.tcm4u.co....s/herb-002-0001

Playground

 

[playground]

Well done (again) Flex ;-)

 

aliexpress.com is a rather impressive looking 'ebay for chinese items'

(i.e. i was impressed by the quality of the website)

 

So...  it's a little like alibaba or ebay, in that hundreds of different sellers advertise on this website

The sell things in different forms, for different quantities and different prices. eg.

With danshen, they sell the raw root, the powder, the tea, etc..

They also sell in different quantities and probably different qualities too.

So basically you get a list of products and you look down the list to find the quantity

and the price that suits your pocket.

 

It's very useful to know about this website! 

 

danshen

http://www.aliexpres...2375850191.html

 

hong hua

http://www.aliexpres.../312137560.html

 

I invite other readers of this thread to hit that 'LIKE' button for Flex's post above.

 

Playground.

Edited by playground, 25 June 2015 - 05:05 AM.