38 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

So I noticed the other day that Dr. Rider's Indiegogo campaign is collecting funds through SENSRF. As ABXs have added quite a few years to our lives, so too IMO will AVXs and DRACOs are broad spectrum.

 

The Truth:

We're full of viruses and we can't detect them all or nearly enough of them, at least clinically. but we could just kill them off, maybe even using maintenance doses in the long term to prevent the accumulation of pathologies that lead us further from life and closer to death. DRACOs were invented 15 years ago and penicillin was first discovered hundreds of years ago, but only received the attention they needed when we needed more soldiers to fight in WWII. This technology isn't going to develop itself, and it could not only extend our health and youth spans by preventing low grade viral infections and improve quality of life for billions, but it could also be used to accelerate technologies that would help us target and remove aging cells by infecting them with harmless designer viruses and then killing them off. This puts a significant amount of rejuvenation within arms reach and has the capacity to produce powerful results. 

 

I'd like to suggest that we pursue the study in this fashion using SENSRF or Ichor Therapeutics:

1. Acute toxicity/LD50

2. Short term exposure (measuring lifespan)

3. Long term exposure (measuring lifespan)

4. Exposure at different ages to determine if just taking the drug with existing pathologies would net a rejuvenation benefit (measured by fur quality/density and overall health compared to controls.

 

Once safety and toxicity have been established we'll be able to leverage our pet cohorts for further investigation.

[Antonio2014]

What are ABX and AVX?

[YOLF]

ABX are antibiotics, AVX are antivirals.

[Antonio2014]

Ah, ok, thanks.

 

DRACO isn't doing very well at Indiegogo. I can't donate because I don't have a credit card. Maybe they could obtain more funding by providing more paying methods. Or maybe the campaign was not started at a good moment, with Lifespan.io and FA fundraising launching at more or less the same time. I hope they start a new campaign next year.

Edited by Antonio2014, 24 November 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[niner]

I'm a little surprised to see the DRACO fundraiser not getting more quickly funded.  For people who are waiting for nanotechnology to provide a great improvement in our health, this is the chance to make it happen.  DRACO is a new kind of medicine, combining molecular recognition with a nanoscale relay that flips the switch on the cell's suicide program.  I should probably mention some of the other indiegogo campaigns for comparison purposes, like millions raised for important cultural landmarks like several more zombie shows.  Yes, DRACO is even more important than an additional zombie show.   I guess it needs better advertising.

[Guinga]

Post removed from this comment to avoid distractions, while it might have been valid it lacks informed perspective. It remains quoted in the following post.

Edited by YOLF, 24 November 2015 - 11:02 PM.

[YOLF]

I think that a better strategy to put this medicine in the market earlier is to test and market it for one widespread virus only. rather than trying to get it approved for dozens of others, which would demand much more time and funds.  once it hits the market to treat the flu virus for example, it would also be eliminanting othe viruses, justifyng off label use. and at the same time allowing it to be tested on other viruses.

 

That's a great idea once we get to human clinical trials, but right now DRACOs are in their infancy and the research has been pretty slow compared to penicillin development during WWII. In order to reach that level of R&D we need to get more preclinical milestones out of the way so it will become more attractive.

[kmoody]

I'd like to suggest that we pursue the study in this fashion using SENSRF or Ichor Therapeutics:

1. Acute toxicity/LD50

2. Short term exposure (measuring lifespan)

3. Long term exposure (measuring lifespan)

4. Exposure at different ages to determine if just taking the drug with existing pathologies would net a rejuvenation benefit (measured by fur quality/density and overall health compared to controls.

 

Once safety and toxicity have been established we'll be able to leverage our pet cohorts for further investigation.

 

 

SENSRF cannot do this work as they do not have any husbandry facilities. If this project becomes a serious prospect, my group could probably help out with safety testing, which would include basic toxicity screens and acute and chronic exposure studies. We do not have experience with infectious disease work in animal models, but do have the equipment for it. Compared to some of the other things we do I suspect the learning curve would be very manageable. I would be happy to discuss if there is any way we can contribute.

Edited by kmoody, 25 November 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[YOLF]

It's my thought that there is likely to be some virus or another already growing in all mice, esp those with weakened immune systems. But to avoid confounding our results it might be useful to use a chronic mouse virus of some sort and keep using it to reinfect the mice if shows promise. Either way it shouldn't be much trouble. I'd also like to measure physical fitness and cognitive ability if we can. Maybe we can do some swimming maze tests to show this kind of safety? We want to find out in as many ways as possible, asap, to give us early indicators. The more we can do in one run, the more promising and efficient our return will be and the sooner we'll be able to do bigger studies. There is an organization that is working on a way to consolidate the grant application process for our community, so this would be a good opportunity to make some connections and test out the process.

Edited by YOLF, 25 November 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[smithx]

It's very interesting research. One question I have is: what about endogenous retroviruses? They are sometimes expressed and would probably have double stranded RNA. Would those cells in which they are expressed be induced to apoptosis? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? It probably depends on what percentage of cells would express the ERVs and whether they recover from that or not.

 

As to why it's not getting well funded, I think there may be some psychological issues at play:

 

- There is no good intro video explaining why DRACOs are great and you need them. The video they do have has poor sound quality and is a long academic lecture. They need something flashy, easy to understand, and 1-2 minutes in length

- The rewards are not very appealing. Being on a "bronze virtual wall" doesn't do anything for me or anyone else. I don't know what awards they could think of, but people like something they can hold. Or if there were a way to offer them a free treatment if/when one becomes available (and if possible) for a larger contribution, that would go a long way.

- The public is not used to funding basic medical research. "If it's so great, why isn't the government funding it or why aren't pharma companies?" I think there's a big credibility gap, which could be addressed in the (missing) video. They could also take a "conspiracy theory" approach, saying Big Pharma doesn't want to fund this because it would undermine their market for many antiviral drugs. That could appeal to a lot of people.

- And the last one, which is sadly likely an issue: Dr. Rider is not exactly photogenic. Unfortunately this matters to a lot of people. And his "live long and prosper" hand in one picture looks fairly creepy. Surely he has some team members? At least some fairly attractive grad students or post-docs? Team pictures would help, and it would also help to know that there IS a team and it's not just some lone guy, possibly a crackpot mad scientist, working away in a lab somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by smithx, 25 November 2015 - 09:01 PM.

[YOLF]

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%).^[1][2]

 

I'm thinking if everyone had these, DRACO wouldn't have a chance of working cuz it would kill all cells. So these are probably the less than 24kb dsRNAs that he's talking about?

 

[smithx]

Oh everyone definitely has them. We've had them since before we were primates.

 

The question is: to what extent are they expressed? We know they are expressed sometimes but I don't know how often, in what tissues, etc.

 

 

 

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%).^[1][2]

 

I'm thinking if everyone had these, DRACO wouldn't have a chance of working cuz it would kill all cells. So these are probably the less than 24kb dsRNAs that he's talking about?

 

 

[iraspastor]

There is so much we are learning about the virome nowadays, the "all viruses are bad" concept doesn't float too well anymore

 

http://jvi.asm.org/c...974-14.full.pdf

 

http://ac.els-cdn.co...bebac98fad4b25c

[YOLF]

 

Oh everyone definitely has them. We've had them since before we were primates.

 

The question is: to what extent are they expressed? We know they are expressed sometimes but I don't know how often, in what tissues, etc.

 

 

 

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%).^[1][2]

 

I'm thinking if everyone had these, DRACO wouldn't have a chance of working cuz it would kill all cells. So these are probably the less than 24kb dsRNAs that he's talking about?

 

 

What is their function? I've been reading that Russia and China already have broad spectrum antivirals, though I'm told they aren't quite DRACOs.  But we could use data from these or even US broadspectrum antivirals such as Nitazoxanide (Alinia) and see if there are any harmful effects or whether users of these drugs develop more health defects... The virome should be as easy to replace as the microbiome with the uh... poop pills... but if there is a disease or condition which a patient doesn't want, I think it's worth the risk and treating enough people could eliminate the pathogenic viruses. Think of antibiotics.. we use them, we save lives and QoL. The same should be done with antivirals. There are plenty of people who are dieing who could benefit from these. People with different kinds of cancer can benefit from various antiviral therapies and some viruses have been shown to support cancer development.

[smithx]

Endogenous retroviruses may or may not have any function. It's likely that their DNA is used for something now, after all these millions of years. The reason they're in our DNA is that they infected our ancestors.

 

Imagine a man infected with HIV. The virus could get into his sperm cells and it would then integrate with their DNA. If that sperm then fertilizes an egg, the child will have HIV in his DNA too. This is what happened many many times with many viruses during our evolution.

 

There's no way to get rid of them. They are in our DNA. It's also been shown that they are expressed under some conditions at least.

 

My concern is that if there are low levels of endogenous retrovirus expression in a large percentage of cells, and if these cells still survive and are not destroyed by that expression. DRACOs could cause all of them to die via stimulated apoptosis. This would be bad in such a case.

 

Note that DRACOs are not actually getting rid of the virus. They're getting rid of cells which contain the virus by causing them to kill themselves. But endogenous retroviruses are in EVERY cell of our bodies. So obviously getting all of our cells to kill themselves would mean that we die too. It isn't the case that all or even most of our cells express endogenous retroviruses most of the time. But if there are conditions under which they are expressed, DRACOs could be dangerous in those circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh everyone definitely has them. We've had them since before we were primates.

 

The question is: to what extent are they expressed? We know they are expressed sometimes but I don't know how often, in what tissues, etc.

 

 

 

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%).^[1][2]

 

I'm thinking if everyone had these, DRACO wouldn't have a chance of working cuz it would kill all cells. So these are probably the less than 24kb dsRNAs that he's talking about?

 

 

What is their function? I've been reading that Russia and China already have broad spectrum antivirals, though I'm told they aren't quite DRACOs.  But we could use data from these or even US broadspectrum antivirals such as Nitazoxanide (Alinia) and see if there are any harmful effects or whether users of these drugs develop more health defects... The virome should be as easy to replace as the microbiome with the uh... poop pills... but if there is a disease or condition which a patient doesn't want, I think it's worth the risk and treating enough people could eliminate the pathogenic viruses. Think of antibiotics.. we use them, we save lives and QoL. The same should be done with antivirals. There are plenty of people who are dieing who could benefit from these. People with different kinds of cancer can benefit from various antiviral therapies and some viruses have been shown to support cancer development.

 

 

[YOLF]

 

Endogenous retroviruses may or may not have any function. It's likely that their DNA is used for something now, after all these millions of years. The reason they're in our DNA is that they infected our ancestors.

 

Imagine a man infected with HIV. The virus could get into his sperm cells and it would then integrate with their DNA. If that sperm then fertilizes an egg, the child will have HIV in his DNA too. This is what happened many many times with many viruses during our evolution.

 

There's no way to get rid of them. They are in our DNA. It's also been shown that they are expressed under some conditions at least.

 

My concern is that if there are low levels of endogenous retrovirus expression in a large percentage of cells, and if these cells still survive and are not destroyed by that expression. DRACOs could cause all of them to die via stimulated apoptosis. This would be bad in such a case.

 

Note that DRACOs are not actually getting rid of the virus. They're getting rid of cells which contain the virus by causing them to kill themselves. But endogenous retroviruses are in EVERY cell of our bodies. So obviously getting all of our cells to kill themselves would mean that we die too. It isn't the case that all or even most of our cells express endogenous retroviruses most of the time. But if there are conditions under which they are expressed, DRACOs could be dangerous in those circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh everyone definitely has them. We've had them since before we were primates.

 

The question is: to what extent are they expressed? We know they are expressed sometimes but I don't know how often, in what tissues, etc.

 

 

 

Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%).^[1][2]

 

I'm thinking if everyone had these, DRACO wouldn't have a chance of working cuz it would kill all cells. So these are probably the less than 24kb dsRNAs that he's talking about?

 

 

What is their function? I've been reading that Russia and China already have broad spectrum antivirals, though I'm told they aren't quite DRACOs.  But we could use data from these or even US broadspectrum antivirals such as Nitazoxanide (Alinia) and see if there are any harmful effects or whether users of these drugs develop more health defects... The virome should be as easy to replace as the microbiome with the uh... poop pills... but if there is a disease or condition which a patient doesn't want, I think it's worth the risk and treating enough people could eliminate the pathogenic viruses. Think of antibiotics.. we use them, we save lives and QoL. The same should be done with antivirals. There are plenty of people who are dieing who could benefit from these. People with different kinds of cancer can benefit from various antiviral therapies and some viruses have been shown to support cancer development.

 

 

Well, there's a difference between dsRNA and DNA, so viral DNA isn't the target, but rather, just viral dsRNA which are, per Dr. Rider larger than 24kbs in viral dsRNA and only smaller in human dsRNA. In order to discuss this any further we need to understand dsRNA better.

 

Anyways:

There were some tissue tests done where the infected tissues where cured of the virus and didn't appear to be affected, they just returned to healthy looking tissue. So unless an entire organ or portion of cells with a unique function were wiped out, there shouldn't be a problem. At the very least, it's worth investigating this to find out. But again, are these dsRNAs that DRACO is targeting actually big enough for DRACOs to kill off an entire organism, and are more than one DRACO required to kill the host cell. If that's the case, they won't all die at once, but over time and only weakest or malignant (malignant cells, including cancer are generally weaker) will die and continued ingestion will lead to stronger and stronger, or younger and younger cells remaining or accelerated aging... but I'm still guessing that inherited viral DNA is incomplete and fairly short. In fact the viruses we use for gene therapy don't deposit all of their DNA tmk, just a specific payload of it. Plus, if Dr. Rider is right, we don't make dsRNA in our cells that is large enough for DRACOs to bind to. I'm of the mind that these things are probably safe, but I'm not savvy on the nomenclature that's used to describe DRACOs. I'll need to invest some time reading up on it (maybe, not sure how important it would be to do so).

[John Schloendorn]

I'll need to invest some time reading up on it (maybe, not sure how important it would be to do so).

 

Yeah, might be important before endorsing someone's sales pitch.  Also macromolecule drug delivery issues is something I'd look at. 

[YOLF]

Well, we know it gets delivered in mice, that to my mind makes it worth exploring. If we don't know the nomenclature, and we assume that the molecules must be made from a selection of somewhat available materials and that the scientist producing it is able to get it to attach to specific targets, we should also be able to assume that he' knows what vectors to use to get the stuff into cells. These sciences have come along way, we're not just taking shots in the dark.

[smithx]

Watch the video or read the paper. They're using a known method of getting the molecules into cells. It works in mice.

 

My comments are hypothetical, but he does have real animal study results that look quite compelling.

Edited by smithx, 03 December 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Logic]

Bavituximab binds to phosphatidylserine which is exposed on the surface of certain atypical animal cells, including tumour cells and cells infected with any of six different families of virus. These viral families contain the viruses hepatitis C, influenza A and B, HIV 1 and 2, measles, respiratory syncytial virus, pichinde virus, which is a model for the Lassa virus,[3] and Ebola virus[4] Other cells are not affected since phosphatidylserine normally is only intracellular...

The antibody's binding to phospholipids alerts the body’s immune system to attack the tumor endothelial cells, thrombosing the tumor's vascular network and/or attacking free floating virally infected and metastatic cells while potentially minimizing side effects in healthy tissues...

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Bavituximab

 

Bavituximab seems to be slipping past under the radar here?

Its in phase III trials atm. so close to being easily obtainable and goes a long way towards the decrease in inflammation/TNF-Alpha/NF-kB  that we are after from DRACO.

Now its a simple matter of clearing AGEs, lipofuscin and amyloid plaques!  
 

[ceridwen]

I thought thought it thought it had failed to clear amyloid

[Antonio2014]

A new fundraising campaign for DRACO: https://www.indiegog...-viral-diseases

Edited by Antonio2014, 07 May 2016 - 09:07 PM.

[Hip]

There is so much we are learning about the virome nowadays, the "all viruses are bad" concept doesn't float too well anymore
 
http://jvi.asm.org/c...974-14.full.pdf
 
http://ac.els-cdn.co...bebac98fad4b25c

 
That is a bit like saying "wars are not all bad," because in spite of the millions who die or suffer injury or PTSD, sometimes war brings advantages, like providing a good subject for Hollywood movies, or perhaps a more rapid advancement of some aspects of technology. 
 
 
Most common viruses are nasty. The viruses in common circulation — and commonly found in the human body — have been linked to numerous chronic diseases. For example:
 
Common chronic diseases associated with viruses (the virus may well be the cause of the disease):
Diabetes type 1 — coxsackievirus B4 (an enterovirus)
Alzheimer's — herpes simplex virus
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis — echovirus (an enterovirus)
Autism — congenital infection with rubella virus or cytomegalovirus
Autoimmune diseases — strongly associated with enteroviruses such as Coxsackie B virus
Bipolar disorder — bornavirus
Cancers — BK virus, Epstein-Barr virus, human papillomavirus, hepatitis C virus, HIV, Kaposi's sarcoma herpesvirus, Merkel cell polyomavirus, mumps virus.
Chronic fatigue syndrome (myalgic encephalomyelitis) —coxsackievirus B, echovirus, Epstein-Barr virus, HHV-6, HHV-7, cytomegalovirus, parvovirus B19
Crohn's disease — enterovirus 
Epilepsy — the B variant of human herpesvirus 6 virus (HHV-6B)
Lupus — parvovirus B19, Epstein-Barr virus and cytomegalovirus
Multiple sclerosis — Epstein-Barr virus, HHV-6
Obesity — adenovirus 36
Parkinson's disease — influenza A virus

Sudden death through heart attack — there are 225,000 fatal heart attacks per year in the US, and enterovirus infection was found in 40% of such heart attack. Ref: here.
 
More info: List of Human Diseases Linked To Infectious Pathogens
 

 

Nearly every adult has many or most of the above viruses in their body. Some you catch very early in life (HHV-6 is usually acquired before the age of 3; Epstein-Barr virus is often caught as a teenager, etc).

 

Prevalence of common viruses in adults:
Epstein Barr virus is found in around 90% of adults 1
HHV-6 is found in nearly 100% of adults (and in 80% of children by 2 years old)
HHV-7 is found in 98% of adults 1
Coxsackievirus B in 23% of adults 1
Cytomegalovirus in 58% of adults 1
Parvovirus B19 in 61% of adults 1
Herpes simplex I in 54% of adults
Herpes simplex II in 16% of adults. 1
 
These pathogens, once caught, cannot be eliminated, just controlled by the immune system.

 

I would think that quite a few people reading this thread will have their healthspan cut short because of a chronic disease that has been linked to common viruses — chronic diseases that might be prevented or cured by elimination of the virus that may be causing it. 

Edited by Hip, 28 February 2017 - 05:07 AM.

[YOLF]

Good point Hip! Perhaps the only benefit viruses present are our study of them and using them as delivery vectors for gene therapy. Unless of course you feel justified in using medicine to harm people... then you don't really belong here and should leave.

 

I'm not aware of any other benefits of virus... perhaps evolution... but virtually all people have died or suffered from them and we're about ready to take over the pursuit of evolution for mother nature. She's getting real close to retirement...

[Hip]

Good point Hip! Perhaps the only benefit viruses present are our study of them and using them as delivery vectors for gene therapy. 

 

Yes, harnessing viruses to delivery gene therapy is one of the good uses for viruses, converting this infectious enemy into a vehicle for human health benefits.

 

 

I'm not aware of any other benefits of virus... perhaps evolution... but virtually all people have died or suffered from them and we're about ready to take over the pursuit of evolution for mother nature. She's getting real close to retirement...

 

Yes, in the past, evolution did make use of some of the genes from viruses which integrated into our genome (the HERVs). But this is quite rare, and evolution would continue working quite happily without this viral gene input. And as you say, in the future we may start to take a controlling role in our own evolution, by improving our genes through science. 

 

In the world of bacteria, the viruses that infect bacteria (bacteriophages) do provide an important evolutionary function, as these viruses will deliver useful genes to the bacteria. I imagine that in the early stages of life, when there were only single celled creatures like bacteria, viruses were a very important and benevolent mechanism of novel gene delivery; in that era, viruses were a clever vehicle of genetic information transmission from one single celled organism to the next.

 

But in the era of increasingly complex multi-celled creatures like animals and humans, viruses are more like a redundant leftover from a past era, that cause far more problems to us than benefits.

Edited by Hip, 28 February 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[YOLF]

I think it is also important to highlight that having a more stable environment means we'll get better at adapting to it and profit more from our adaptations. So it pays to simplify our environment and keep it from getting better at eating us

[zorba990]

Bump. Seems like a good time for a funding boost on this...

[YOLF]

We can own it now... they could raise money on wefunder or something like that.

[zorba990]

Here's some interesting info :

https://www.research...RNA_in_Solution
"Molecular spectroscopy of aqueous solutions has been more challenging in the THz region than at near-infrared wavelengths for several reasons, such as the strong absorption by liquid water. We have measured high-absorbance ( ≈ 0.8) and high-Q ( ≈ 90) resonant signatures around 1.0 THz from linear small-interfering double-stranded RNA molecules suspended in buffer solution in nanofluidic channels. The measurement instrument is a coherent photomixing transceiver. A physical model is developed to explain the measurements based on high-order flexural resonances of the entire double-strand with polar coupling to the THz radiation via the ionized phosphate groups. The predicted resonant frequencies are within 2% of experiment for the three double-strands studied (15, 19, and 23 base pairs), supporting the conclusion that each si-RNA molecule has a unique THz resonant frequency."

THz being at the airport scanner and 5G level, I wonder what happens to dormant viruses when the body absorbs energy in the same range as its DsRNA resonant frequency?

[Kimer Med]

Kimer Med is working on replicating the original results with DRACO, along with testing against SARS-CoV-2, to be followed by testing in mice and then clinical trials.

 

If you'd like to follow our work, consider subscribing to our email list:

 

https://kimermed.co.nz/landing

 

If anyone has questions about DRACO, I can try to answer them.