623 replies to this topic

[normalizing]

^ why not just get mineral water more specifically one high in magnesium and react it with malic acid?

[Hip]

^ why not just get mineral water more specifically one high in magnesium and react it with malic acid?

 

Your chemistry homework assignment tonight is to answer the question about why that would not work. 

[hotbit]

 

 if you look at figure 4a in the study that pertains to the Aquela product, you see that they achieve a H2 concentration in the water of around 6 ppm after leaving the bottle to stand for 12 hours (at 25ºC), and around 8 ppm after 24 hours.

 

However, without being able to measure my ppm using H2Blue, I cannot verify that I have any hydrogen in the water.

 

When I reacted 5 grams of citric acid powder with the magnesium rod using the "test tube within a bottle" method, the amount of H2 gas that collects at the top of the bottle is around 0.5 liters (of course this is compressed under pressure into a small space at the top of the bottle, but once you release the H2 gas, I measured its volume at normal atmospheric pressure to be around 0.5 liters). So there is quite a bit of hydrogen there.

 

 

It is quite puzzling. In the mentioned article around Fig. 1 they say:

 

After the reaction was terminated, the H₂ gas was dissolved by shaking the bottle for about 30 s.

 

So it seems like shaking has an important impact on dissolved gas levels. Also, it seems that in their setup H2 gas is not bubbling through the water but directly gathering under the lid, so your setup seems even better.

 

Assuming there is around 50 to 100 ml of gas volume in the bottle and around 500 ml under normal pressure, also pressure in the bottle should be around 5 atm as in the paper. Missed Shaking? Or did I miss that part from your description?

 

 

 

[aconita]

Likely it is the pressure that lacks, a single rod of mag might not expose enough surface for a strong reaction, maybe mag-acid is anyway weaker than say lye-aluminum ....

 

I would at least try with mag powder instead of rod, 500mg should do as a start point, aim to have no powder left and adjust the amount accordingly.

 

The much greater exposed surface of powder should provide a stronger reaction leading to more hydrogen therefore more pressure and finally higher concentration in water (hopefully).

[Hip]

Assuming there is around 50 to 100 ml of gas volume in the bottle and around 500 ml under normal pressure, also pressure in the bottle should be around 5 atm as in the paper. 

 

I just now measured the volume of H2 gas occupies when compressed, and it is 75 ml. This then expands to around 500 ml when released from the bottle. So that would make the pressure in the bottle around 6.7 atmospheres.

 

(This pressure of 6.7 atmospheres was created when I used 5 grams of citric acid powder in my reaction; obviously lower amounts of citric acid will produce less pressure, because less acid will produce less H2 gas.)

 

 

 

So it seems like shaking has an important impact on dissolved gas levels. Also, it seems that in their setup H2 gas is not bubbling through the water but directly gathering under the lid, so your setup seems even better.

 

Missed Shaking? Or did I miss that part from your description?

 

I did read the bit about shaking in the study, and shook my bottle very, very vigorously, but the volume of hydrogen gas at the top of the bottle did not seem to diminish in size after shaking, so I have not indication that shaking dissolved more gas.

 

But only a fairly small percentage of the H2 gas gets dissolved in the water anyway, even at 7 ppm concentrations, so you probably would not notice much reduction in gas volume on shaking the bottle. For a 7 ppm H2 concentration, that works out to 7 mg of dissolved H2 gas per liter of water, and therefore 3.5 mg of dissolved H2 gas in my 500 ml of water.

 

By my calculation, at room temp and at 6.7 atmospheres of pressure, 3.5 mg of hydrogen will occupy a volume of around 6 ml. So if you shake vigorously to try to dissolve the hydrogen gas at the top of the bottle, your initial 75 ml of volume of gas will only reduce by 6 ml, which may be hard to notice in a bottle.

 

(I used this ideal gas law equations calculator to calculate the H2 volume of 6 ml. Note that a mole of H2 gas has a mass of 2 grams, so 3.5 mg of H2 corresponds to 0.00175 moles)

 

 

If course, if I were able to measure H2 ppm concentration using the H2Blue drops, then possibly this would be able to detect an increased amount of dissolved H2 after shaking. But alas, I have no H2Blue.

[Hip]

^ why not just get mineral water more specifically one high in magnesium and react it with malic acid?

 

Sorry, yes, my early comment may have come across as a bit unfriendly. 

 

The reason you cannot react your citric acid with the magnesium that is naturally present in a bottle of mineral water is because in the mineral water, the magnesium is not present as a pure silvery metal, but is contained within a salt. So for example, in mineral water, magnesium might be present as magnesium chloride (MgCl₂). Once magnesium is locked up in a salt molecule in this way, it will not react with your acid.

Edited by Hip, 15 October 2016 - 01:10 AM.

[normalizing]

thanks

[Hip]

I just now more accurately measured the H2 gas volumes produced by my "test tube within a bottle" method of making hydrogen rich water:

 

On this occasion (using a 600 ml sized Pepsi Cola bottle), the pressurized volume of H2 gas that collected inside this bottle was 94 ml, and once this H2 gas was released from the bottle, it occupied a volume of 644 ml. So that makes the pressure inside the bottle = 644 / 94 = 6.9 atmospheres, or around 101 psi. 

 

If you look at this page on the excellent Molecular Hydrogen Foundation website, it explains how to calculate the H2 concentration in water for a given pressure of hydrogen gas, via the Henry’s Law equation. For H2 gas at 25ºC, the basic equation is this:

 

H2 Concentration (in ppm) = H2 Gas Pressure Inside Bottle (in atmospheres) X 1.57

 

So for my pressure of 6.9 atmospheres in the bottle, in the water this will theoretically yield a H2 concentration of 6.9 X 1.57 = 10.8 ppm. Which is a very high concentration.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 15 October 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[hotbit]

To summarize, in @streamlover's method there are bubbles after opening, in @Hip's method not. There are byproducts left in the bottle in the 1st method. We expect sugar grains should do the trick in the 2nd method, but maybe somehow it doesn't, even thoug H2 is present?

I have the following idea to check whether there is H2 dissolved. Gently remove inner tube, maybe fill up the bottle a bit, close, wait a few hours while shaking a few times in the meantime. Pressure should build up and gas should be flammable.

 

So for my pressure of 6.9 atmospheres in the bottle, in the water this will theoretically yield a H2 concentration of 6.9 X 1.57 = 10.8 ppm. Which is a very high concentration.

 

 

 

This value is very close to what they have reported in the paper. Interestingly, after just 10 min they achieved around 6ppm and 10ppm after 24h. Fig5

Edited by hotbit, 15 October 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[Nate-2004]

So yesterday I think the magnesium/malic method of making H2 water began affecting my digestion system for the first time, the cramps are no fun. I've stopped drinking it just to be sure that's what it is. I dunno what happened since I'm not drinking that much really, just 3 16oz bottles a day if that. I'm really interested in finding another method that doesn't involve turning the water into milk of magnesia. 

 

I just started MK-677 yesterday as well (after the digestion issues started), so I'll be able to find out whether H2 water really is anything like MK-677.

Edited by Nate-2004, 15 October 2016 - 07:00 PM.

[Hip]

 I'm really interested in finding another method that doesn't involve turning the water into milk of magnesia. 

 

You can try my method.

 

You don't need to find a test tube to do my method, you can instead use a small plastic bag, like for example a ziplock bag that's around 12 cm heigh (just large enough to hold the magnesium rod). Place your reactants (magnesium rod and around 3 grams of malic acid) inside the plastic bag, seal the ziplock bag, but place a tiny pin hole at the top of the bag. to allow the hydrogen to escape, and then insert the bag inside the bottle of water. 

 

The method is exactly the same as my videos above show, but using a bag in place of a test tube.

 

10 cm 99.99% pure magnesium rods can be bought from China on eBay for around $3 (but in fact the purilty of the magnesium does not matter, because you don't consume any of the reaction products in my method).

Edited by Hip, 15 October 2016 - 07:42 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I have good rods, but I didn't think your method worked very well, did you ever test it with H2 blue bought online?

 

[Hip]

I have good rods, but I didn't think your method worked very well, did you ever test it with H2 blue bought online?

 

No, because unfortunately it costs $85 to ship H2Blue to the UK, plus the $30 cost of the product (they cannot ship using regular US mail, because H2Blue contains ethanol, which is prohibited in regular US mail).

 

However, if anyone in the US like @streamlover who has these H2Blue drops would like to try my method and measure the H2 concentration using the drops, then we would have confirmation that my method works. 

 

I think my method does work, because it is pretty much identical to the Aquela product, which we know produces 7 ppm hydrogen rich water. 

 

Also, when I drink the hydrogen rich water using my method near bedtime, it keeps me awake for an extra 4 hours, because I find it stimulating to the brain. I also notice that my hydrogen rich water greatly reduces the constant inflammation I have in my brain (I have chronic fatigue syndrome / myalgic encephalomyelitis, which involves brain inflammation).

 

So I definitely get effects from the hydrogen rich water made by my "test tube in a bottle" method.

[Nate-2004]

I think my method does work, because it is pretty much identical to the Aquela product, which we know produces 7 ppm hydrogen rich water. 

 

We don't know that for sure though.

 

I may test it if I can get around to buying the stuff myself.

[Hip]

I have the following idea to check whether there is H2 dissolved. Gently remove inner tube, maybe fill up the bottle a bit, close, wait a few hours while shaking a few times in the meantime. Pressure should build up and gas should be flammable.

 

Good idea. I will try something along these lines. 

 

I thought of something like this: once I have prepared my hydrogen rich water using the "test tube in a bottle" method, I will open the bottle, remove the test tube, and fill the bottle to the top with some extra water. I will then screw the lid back on my bottle, but not screwed on tight: I will leave the lid slightly loose, so that H2 gas can escape. 

 

I will then place my bottle underwater in a sink full of water, and place my bottle just underneath an upturned glass filled with water and placed in the sink. Then any H2 gas that escapes from my bottle lid will collect in the upturned glass. 

 

That way, over many hours, any hydrogen gas coming out of the water in my bottle should slowly collect in the upturned glass. I can test that it is hydrogen by igniting it. And by measuring the volume of H2 gas collected in my upturned glass, I can work out the exact amount of H2 gas that was present in my bottle of hydrogen rich water.

 

The only problem with this method is that as the H2 gas starts to collect in the upturned glass, it will also start to dissolve in the large amount of water in that upturned glass and in the sink. So this would be a problem, and for this reason, I don't think this method of measuring the H2 gas would work. It would only work if you used a liquid other than water, in which H2 does not dissolve.

 

 

 

We don't know that for sure though.

 

If you go by Henry's Law, then having 6 atmospheres of pressure of H2 gas above the water in the bottle cannot fail to dissolve H2 gas into the water, and create a very high 10.8 ppm concentration of H2. Just ask the fish in the sea: they rely on Henry's Law to dissolve atmospheric oxygen into the sea water, so that they can breathe. But I agree, it would be good to confirm this with H2Blue drops.

 

My method is pretty easy to do, once you have the rods and acid, so you might want to try it, and see what effects this (theoretically) very highly concentrated hydrogen rich water has on you. I found it has stimulating effects, and also mood boosting effects. 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 15 October 2016 - 08:47 PM.

[streamlover]

Hip, I don't think your method duplicates the Aquella method or will generate enough H2 to get therapeutic concentrations. I'm pretty sure the Aquella product uses powder for one thing...can't remember now if they use Mg + acid or Al + lime but in any case the fact they're using powder means there's a much higher surface area of reactants and this generates much more H2 than one Mg rod. Also, don't they also use a "gas-permeable membrane (water-impermeable)" between the reacting container and the drinking water? This is how they keep the reactant by-products out of the drinking water but allow a free flow of H2 gas through the membrane.. Not sure your use of a pinhole will accomplish the same thing. I actually tried some of the things you're suggesting only with Mg powder + malic acid. I used a 5 or 10 ml vial and tried several things I thought would be adequate for a membrane. (drilled a hole in the screw top and placed the membrane under the cap. I could see bubbles escaping the vial but could never get more than .1ppm concentration of H2 using this method. I think possibly my main problem was my membrane wasn't nearly as efficient as the one they use. (They say they have a patent on theirs and I have no idea what it's made of.) Anyway, I eventually gave up trying to duplicate this method, although I'm still pursuing trying to obtain an Aquela kit to see if there's anything to be gleaned from looking at their container and membrane.

 

Nate-2004, Sorry to hear your pushing up against the bowel tolerance issues for the Mg malate. I've managed to control mine after cutting back on the malic acid to 1gm per batch. I can drink 6 or 7 half-liters per day now without much of a problem. I even surmised that some of my problem had been excess un-reacted malic acid that had been giving me the same effect as eating a bunch of green apples. Anyway, whatever it was, it's pretty much a non-issue with my current recipe. I would try a few batches with maybe 1/2gm of malic and see if that fixes it and then maybe build back up to where you start having a problem and then cut back a little. Even if you only use 1/2gm, I think you'll still get a decent concentration with 4-5 Mg rods.

 

For anyone who can afford it, there's now a pill on the market that produces much higher concentrations of H2 water than the other pills that came before. (HRW) This uses Mg + malic acid like all the pill recipes but evidently uses more Mg powder in each pill to generate the higher concentrations. I'm choosing to stay with this cheaper method because I don't mind the brewing process and, as I said originally, I'm basically a cheapskate which is why I experimented with this method in the first place. Just don't like paying someone else for something I can do almost as well myself for a fraction of the cost.

[Nate-2004]

Yeah I already cut back to 1g a month or so ago. My suspicion is that it's not the malic acid but the magnesium hydroxide.

 

As for those pills, wow, why are they so ridiculously expensive?

[hotbit]

@Hip
I wonder if it will work, as if there will be contact between water in the bottle and water in the sink, they will mix and no gas may be observed. 

 

Edited by hotbit, 15 October 2016 - 09:47 PM.

[Hip]

 I actually tried some of the things you're suggesting only with Mg powder + malic acid. I used a 5 or 10 ml vial and tried several things I thought would be adequate for a membrane. (drilled a hole in the screw top and placed the membrane under the cap. I could see bubbles escaping the vial but could never get more than .1ppm concentration of H2 using this method. I think possibly my main problem was my membrane wasn't nearly as efficient as the one they use. (They say they have a patent on theirs and I have no idea what it's made of.) Anyway, I eventually gave up trying to duplicate this method, although I'm still pursuing trying to obtain an Aquela kit to see if there's anything to be gleaned from looking at their container and membrane.

 

Hi @streamlover, thanks very much for trying out this "test tube in a bottle" method and measuring the ppm. I am very much enjoying the "kitchen science" experiments in this thread.

 

 

Can I ask, how much malic acid powder did you use in your "test tube in a bottle" experiment, where you only got 1 ppm? I have been using up to 5 grams of citric acid (which is similar to malic). This creates a lot of hydrogen gas.

 

Also, did you use your usual swing-top glass beer bottle, or a plastic soda bottle? I read that the rubber seals in swing-top beer bottles are designed to let out gas at less than 3 atmospheres pressure, as a safety feature. So you would not get above 3 atmospheres in a beer bottle.

 

Whereas in a soda bottle (PET bottles), you can have up to 12 atmospheres before the bottle bursts. I am getting pressures of 6 atmospheres in my plastic soda bottles, using 5 grams of citric acid and magnesium rods.

 

 

In your test of the "test tube in a bottle" method, how long did you let the bottle stand before you measured the ppm? I know in you video, you said you let your glass beer bottles stand for around 3 hours, but with the Aquela product, their study said you need to wait ideally 24 hours for all the hydrogen to dissolve. The hydrogen initially collects at the top of the plastic bottle, and then slowly dissolves into the water over 24 hours, based on Henry's law.

 

The study also found that you get a higher ppm concentration if you use water at 25ºC room temperature, compared to fridge cold water. Can I ask, what temperature where you using in your experiments?  

Edited by Hip, 15 October 2016 - 09:39 PM.

[Hip]

Hip, I don't think your method duplicates the Aquella method or will generate enough H2 to get therapeutic concentrations. I'm pretty sure the Aquella product uses powder for one thing...can't remember now if they use Mg + acid or Al + lime but in any case the fact they're using powder means there's a much higher surface area of reactants and this generates much more H2 than one Mg rod. Also, don't they also use a "gas-permeable membrane (water-impermeable)" between the reacting container and the drinking water? This is how they keep the reactant by-products out of the drinking water but allow a free flow of H2 gas through the membrane.. Not sure your use of a pinhole will accomplish the same thing.

 

In the study related to the Aquela product, they detail two methods of making hydrogen rich water in a bottle. In method I, they use a gas-permeable film. However, in method II, they use an acrylic test tube with a check valve (a one-way valve) that lets the H2 gas escape into the bottle, but prevents the water entering the acrylic test tube. So method II is almost identical to my method. 

 

So I don't think the gas-permeable film is of any importance, as far as I can see.

 

In method II, they create a pressure of 6 atmospheres in the bottle. When the bottle is left for 24 hours, it results in a H2 concentration of around 10 ppm (see Figure 5a of the study).

Edited by Hip, 16 October 2016 - 01:23 AM.

[aconita]

Actually in method II, they use an acrylic test tube with a check valve AND a gas permeable bag inside the tube.

 

The gas permeable bag is needed because the check valve alone doesn't prevent the chemicals inside the tube from polluting the drinking water escaping from the check valve together with the hydrogen, remember they use lye-aluminum as reactants, not exactly what is desirable in drinking water.

 

Another reason is they aim to sell you the bags sealed and filled with the reactants, which is a convenient way of making business.   

 

If you use mag-malic (or citric) the gas permeable bag is not necessary since small traces of them in the drinking water aren't an issue whatsoever.

 

I don't think a check valve is necessary with your method either because it is unlikely that any water goes inside the tube, first the pressure of the developing hydrogen will prevent it and afterwards if the hole (or the holes) is/are small enough the superficial tension of water will prevent it to get in, at least up to a certain point.

 

Anyway a few drops of water entering the tube aren't an issue, I guess.

 

I think Steamlover should try your method as close as possible and test the water for hydrogen concentration, it is the only way to make sure of what goes on.

 

I insist that mag powder instead of the single rod is likely to be a better set up and checking the final pressure with a bicycle pump as previously described would be rater interesting too.

 

 

[Hip]

Actually in method II, they use an acrylic test tube with a check valve AND a gas permeable bag inside the tube.

 

The gas permeable bag is needed because the check valve alone doesn't prevent the chemicals inside the tube from polluting the drinking water escaping from the check valve together with the hydrogen, remember they use lye-aluminum as reactants, not exactly what is desirable in drinking water.

 

Another reason is they aim to sell you the bags sealed and filled with the reactants, which is a convenient way of making business.   

 

If you use mag-malic (or citric) the gas permeable bag is not necessary since small traces of them in the drinking water aren't an issue whatsoever.

 

Yes I agree: the permeable bag that the reacting ingredients are placed in is only to prevent the ingredients escaping from the acrylic tube; this bag has no other role. The H2 gas generated in the acrylic tube enters the water through the valve in the tube, which is identical in concept to my method, where the H2 enters the water through a tiny pin hole in the cap of my test tube.

 

 

 

I insist that mag powder instead of the single rod is likely to be a better set up and checking the final pressure with a bicycle pump as previously described would be rater interesting too.

 

My thoughts are that the only important factors that will make any difference to the final ppm concentration are the pressure obtained in the bottle, and the amount of time you let the bottle to stand (24 hours is recommended).

 

Although it is still a mystery why I get H2 gas effervescence appearing when I open a bottle made with @streamlover's method, but no effervescence with my method.

 

 

 

The Pressure Limits the Chemical Reaction

 

Interestingly enough, when I place a large 5 gram quantity of citric acid in the test tube with my magnesium rod, the build-up of pressure inside the bottle eventually actually stops the reaction in the test tube from continuing, even though there are a lot of reactants left. 

 

When I use my "test tube in bottle" method, after a some time, the reaction in the test tube starts to slow down, and after about an hour, I notice the reaction has almost completely stopped (no more bubbles are created). It looks like the reaction has ceased because the reactants have run out; but in fact, as soon as you open the bottle lid and release the 6 atmospheres of pressure, the reaction in the test tube instantly starts up again with full vigor.

 

So it seems that as the pressure in the bottle builds up to 6 atmospheres, it actually inhibits any further chemical reaction between the citric acid and magnesium, even when there is plenty of citric acid and magnesium left.

 

So when using citric acid and magnesium, it may not be possible to achieve pressures much higher than around 6 atmospheres, no matter what form of magnesium you use. The pressure seems to be the final limiting factor on the chemical reaction.

 

 

 

I would say, though, that magnesium powder might be more convenient than rods, because you could premix this with citric acid in the right proportions, and then add your powder mixture to the test tube. That would be quick and easy. And that way, you would not need to clean your magnesium rod every time (I clean the rod after each use, because it builds up a layer of what I guess is magnesium oxide on its surface, from the direct reaction of magnesium with H₂O). 

 

 

I may buy a pressure gauge; but I think the method I am using to measure pressure is pretty accurate (ie, the method of taking the ratio of the H2 gas volume when released from the bottle, to the H2 gas volume when pressurized inside the bottle — Boyle's Law PV = constant allows you to simply calculate the pressure in the bottle from the ratio of these two volumes). 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 16 October 2016 - 04:50 AM.

[aconita]

The Pressure Limits the Chemical Reaction

 

That's an interesting observation, you might be right.

 

I remember Steamlover earlier in this discussion mentioning that surprisingly enough when for some reason the water was very fizzy the measured hydrogen concentration was actually lower than when no or little fizz was detectable.

 

Maybe the fact that with your method there is no fizz is actually an indication of high hydrogen concentration...

 

We really need to measure that damn concentration otherwise we risk to keep running in circles uselessly.

 

Maybe Steamlover or someone else would be kind enough to send you a little bit of H2blue in a letter so that you can finally do appropriate tests, that's a 10ml bottle which makes for a very tiny bottle, it will flawlessly fit in an envelope with a bit of cardboard around and can be sent as a normal letter for really cheap, no custom declaration needed.

 

You don't even need 10ml of H2blue, just 1ml in a tiny plastic bag sealed with tape should suffice.

[Hip]

I remember Steamlover earlier in this discussion mentioning that surprisingly enough when for some reason the water was very fizzy the measured hydrogen concentration was actually lower than when no or little fizz was detectable.

 

I have a theory that the fizz may come from the small amounts of magnesium oxide that also get created by the direct reaction of the magnesium rod with the water.

 

Unlike magnesium citrate or magnesium malate, which are water soluble, magnesium oxide is insoluble in water, and so when it is created, it will either stick to the magnesium rod as a white coating, or will float away into the water in the bottle (in @streamlover's method) as tiny microscopic particles.

 

I think these microscopic particles of insoluble magnesium oxide suspended in the water in the bottle may act as nucleation centers that precipitate the hydrogen bubbles.

 

To test this theory, what I am doing at the moment is making some hydrogen rich water by my usual "test tube in a bottle" method, but instead of just putting pure water in my bottle, I am putting pure water plus a little bit of magnesium oxide powder (I happen to have some magnesium oxide powder supplement that I bought some years ago). 

 

If when I open this bottle, I get a fizz, then this will prove that magnesium oxide causes the fizz, via nucleation.

 

 

According to this theory, it makes sense that the more fizz there is, the lower the H2 concentration, because a high amount of fizz when you open the bottle will cause a lot of the H2 gas to leave the water, thus lowering the H2 concentration.

 

 

I have many online acquaintances in the US that I think would be willing to buy and send me the H2Blue by regular US mail if I asked them.

 

The other alternative is to try to buy the Japanese version of H2Blue, which is sold in many places in Japan, and is cheaper than H2Blue (see this Google Image search on the Japanese product name).

Edited by Hip, 16 October 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[Hip]

OK, well my theory on magnesium oxide in the water causing the hydrogen bubble effervescence appears to be wrong: I just opened my bottle of hydrogen rich water made with the "test tube in a bottle" method, in which beforehand I had placed some magnesium oxide into the water, but there was no fizz at all on opening the bottle. So it would seem that magnesium oxide in the water is not the reason for the fizz.

 

So it remains a mystery why there is a fizz when opening bottles made with @streamlover's method, but no fizz with my "test tube in a bottle" method.

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 16 October 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[Lreader]

An easy way to breathe all of the hydrogen gas that you see collected at the top of the bottle when you get ready to pop the top: I use the same small lightweight funnel that I use for filling the bottle with water, as a hood for collecting the hydrogen when I open the bottle. Simply place the stem of the funnel in your mouth, position the funnel over and around the bottle cap, and as you pop the cap slowly inhale through your mouth. When your lungs are full, block your windpipe with the back of your tongue, while quickly positioning your lips over the bottle opening. Another tip: While drinking most of the water (without removing your lips from the bottle opening), you don't want to tip the bottle so much that a rod slides into your mouth, so pour the last bit of water into a glass while holding your finger over the top part of the bottle opening to keep a rod from sliding out. Then, drink that water immediately. I'm documenting my experiences on a page titled Hydrogen Drinking Water 3.0 on my PieEconomics blog.

Edited by Lreader, 03 November 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[Lreader]

Regarding my last post, I forgot to add:

 

Caution: Leave at least a half inch clearance above the top of the cap so that when it pops it won't cause the funnel to hit your mouth.

[Hip]

I have just figured out a cheap and simple way to measure the ppm H2 concentration in water, without needing to use H2Blue testing drops.

 

My method of determining H2 concentration involves measuring the volume of H2 gas that slowly escapes from a bottle hydrogen rich water over a period of 6 to 8 hours or so after you first open the bottle.

 

The way I measure this volume of H2 gas is by attaching with some glue (and in an airtight manner) a plastic hypodermic syringe onto a bottle top (with the nozzle of the syringe poking through a hole in the top, and into the bottle, so that the gas in the bottle can flow into the syringe). I then tightly screw this syringe + top on to a bottle of hydrogen rich water that I prepared earlier.

 

Then as the H2 gas slowly escapes out of the water, typically over a time period of 6 to 8 hours or so, it pushes up the plunger in the hypodermic syringe. So in this way, you can measure the volume of H2 gas coming out of the water (and can then calculate the H2 concentration in the water — see my calculation below).

 

Note that this method will only work properly if the bottle is filled right to the top (or just a few millimeters from the top). So if the bottle of hydrogen rich water you prepared is not quite full, it may be necessary to add a little bit of tap water to fill it to the top).

 

Here is a picture of my plastic hypodermic syringe glued onto a bottle top, with the top then screwed onto a bottle of hydrogen rich water; H2 gas coming out of the water in the bottle collects in the syringe, and pushes the plunger up:

 

Plastic Hypodermic Syringe Glued Onto A Bottle Top To Collect Escaping H2 Gas

 

 

Using the above setup, I measured the volume of H2 gas slowly escaping from the water in both @streamlover's method of making hydrogen rich water, and my own "test tube within a bottle" method of making hydrogen rich water.

 

The results are:

 

Streamlover's method: total of 83 ml of H2 gas (coming from a bottle of 1.5 liters of hydrogen rich water) 

My method: total of 68 ml of H2 gas (coming from a bottle of 1.5 liters of hydrogen rich water)

 

Note that because my syringe only holds 12 ml, every time the syringe fills up full with 12 ml of H2 gas, you have to empty and reset the syringe, by unscrewing the bottle top, pushing the syringe plunger back down, and then screwing the top back on. So when measuring the H2 volume, you have to keep an eye on the bottle and syringe over a period of around 6 to 8 hours, emptying the syringe each time it fills up. (Of course a better approach might be to use a larger capacity syringe.)

 

As you empty and reset the syringe, you can also use this opportunity to test that the gas in your syringe is indeed H2 gas, by using a lighted match, and observing the popping sound as the gas explodes. 

 

 

 

How do we work out the ppm concentration of H2 in the water, given the above volumes of collected H2 gas? Well, that is easy, as you can use the Ideal Gas Law Equation to calculate how much volume 1 mg of H2 gas will occupy at room temperature (20ºC) and at standard atmospheric pressure: it turns out that 1 mg of H2 gas will occupy around 12 ml in volume. 

 

So if you had exactly 1 liter of hydrogen rich water in your bottle, and you divide the total volume of H2 gas that you collected in your syringe by 12, that will give you the mg/liter concentration of H2 in the water (and remember that for low concentrations, the mg/liter value gives the ppm concentration, since mg/L = ppm). 

 

If you have a bottle of some other size, then the formula for the ppm concentration is:

 

H2 Concentration in ppm =  V / (12 x B)  

 

Where:

B = volume of the bottle of hydrogen rich water in liters

V = volume of the H2 gas collected in the syringe in ml

 

So using this equation, we get the following ppm concentrations (my bottle is 1.5 liters):

 

Streamlover's method: 83 / (12 x 1.5) = 4.6 ppm  

My method: 68 / (12 x 1.5) = 3.8 ppm  

 

 

So as you can see, my method and Streamlover's method produce similar ppm concentrations.

 

By the way, I only got these high 3.8 ppm H2 concentrations in my method then I shook the bottle vigorously for 30 seconds, to get the H2 gas collected at the top of the bottle to dissolve into the water. When I did not shake the bottle, I only obtained a 1 ppm concentration. So shaking the bottle is important in my method of hydrogen rich water production (and this is stated in the Aquela study). It's possible that by shaking the bottle for even longer, you will get even higher ppm concentrations.

 

 

 

Note that in fact, in both methods, the ppm concentrations will actually be a little higher than those above figures I calculated, because you will always get a residual amount of H2 gas that never escapes from the water: at a pressure of 1 atmosphere, and with pure H2 gas above the water surface, at equilibrium you get a residual concentration of 1.57 mg of H2 per liter of water = 1.57 ppm. This fact comes from Henry’s Law (see the MHF page here).

 

So really you probably want to add 1.57 ppm to the above two figures of H2 concentration, making the figures:

 

Streamlover's method: 6.2 ppm  

My method: 5.4 ppm 

 

And if you add this residual 1.57 ppm to our above equation, the equation then becomes:

 

H2 Concentration in ppm =  V / (12 x B)  + 1.57

 

Where:

B = volume of the bottle of hydrogen rich water in liters

V = volume of the H2 gas collected in the syringe in ml

 

I think this second version of the equation is going to be more accurate, as it accounts for the residual hydrogen gas that remains in the water.

 

 

Why does my syringe method of H2 concentration calculation produce ppm figures that are around double those that Streamlover obtained using his H2Blue drops? Is this an error in my measurement method, or the H2Blue measurement method? I don't think so. I think both measurement methods will tally closely. 

 

I think I get double the concentration simply because my own version of Streamlover's method (which uses a plastic bottle rather than glass bottle) reaches internal bottle pressures that are around 6 to 7 atmospheres, whereas I believe the swing top glass beer bottles that Streamlover uses will not be able to reach more than around 3 atmospheres of internal pressure (because the swing top beer bottle rubber stopper is designed to act as a pressure release valve at pressures above 3 atmospheres).

 

So my plastic bottle achieves around double the internal pressure compared to glass swing top beer bottles, and hence achieves around double the H2 concentration in the hydrogen rich water it produces.

 

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Edited by Hip, 03 November 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[aconita]

Brilliant!

 

I understand you use room temperature water and leave the bottle at room temperature the whole time with both methods, is that right?

[Hip]

I understand you use room temperature water and leave the bottle at room temperature the whole time with both methods, is that right?

 

Yes that's right, I used room temperature, which is around 20ºC here in the UK, in my centrally heated home. I have not really experimented with different temperatures. 

 

According to the Aquela product study, they found you get a higher ppm concentration if you use water at 25ºC room temperature, compared to fridge cold water at 10ºC. See figure 4a of that study, for the difference in concentration obtained with water at 10ºC, 15ºC and 25ºC.  

Edited by Hip, 03 November 2016 - 10:37 PM.