40 replies to this topic

[motorcitykid]

I wonder what type of ingredients would comprise a viable skin cream to best enhance methylene blue absorption? Any of the Longecity skin pros have any ideas?   

 

http://www.upi.com/H.../7171496173236/

[ekaitz]

What we don't know is what oral dose should be needed to achieve this effect. 

[tunt01]

If you have ever played with methylene blue, the idea of putting it in your skin (via a cream) seems rather unattractive unless you are trying out for a role in the Blue Man Group.

[motorcitykid]

If you have ever played with methylene blue, the idea of putting it in your skin (via a cream) seems rather unattractive unless you are trying out for a role in the Blue Man Group.

 

I thought that as well(re Blue Man Group) but they are suggesting in the article that it might be of use in skin care products?  Maybe there's some way to "undo the blue" - neutralize or alter the color without degrading the MB?

[sdxl]

 

If you have ever played with methylene blue, the idea of putting it in your skin (via a cream) seems rather unattractive unless you are trying out for a role in the Blue Man Group.

 

I thought that as well(re Blue Man Group) but they are suggesting in the article that it might be of use in skin care products?  Maybe there's some way to "undo the blue" - neutralize or alter the color without degrading the MB?

 

 

You can turn methylene blue colorless with a reducing agent, like ascorbic acid. The problem with that is that it will not stay colorless if used topically, because oxygen exposure turns it blue again.

[motorcitykid]

 

 

If you have ever played with methylene blue, the idea of putting it in your skin (via a cream) seems rather unattractive unless you are trying out for a role in the Blue Man Group.

 

I thought that as well(re Blue Man Group) but they are suggesting in the article that it might be of use in skin care products?  Maybe there's some way to "undo the blue" - neutralize or alter the color without degrading the MB?

 

 

You can turn methylene blue colorless with a reducing agent, like ascorbic acid. The problem with that is that it will not stay colorless if used topically, because oxygen exposure turns it blue again.

 

 

That's too bad. I guess we'll have to wait for the cosmetic labs to finagle the color.. I would think cosmetic companies will soon be jumping on this considering the low cost of MB. 

 

[tunt01]

 

You can turn methylene blue colorless with a reducing agent, like ascorbic acid. The problem with that is that it will not stay colorless if used topically, because oxygen exposure turns it blue again.

 

 

True.  But also in the reduced form is when it has the ability to slip out of cells and eventually make its way into the blood plasma and bladder.

[floweryriddle]

> Based on these results, it can be concluded that low concentrations of MB (less than 2.5 μM) neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use. As a result, we performed the follow-up studies with MB at concentrations below 2.5 μM.

https://www.nature.c...598-017-02419-3

[motorcitykid]

> Based on these results, it can be concluded that low concentrations of MB (less than 2.5 μM) neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use. As a result, we performed the follow-up studies with MB at concentrations below 2.5 μM.

https://www.nature.c...598-017-02419-3

 

That explains why the news article was touting MB infused cosmetic products. Maybe the MB could be applied to the skin w/o being mixed in w/ a cream? That would be nice. I'm in for a group buy if someone is willing to bring a low concentrated MB formula to Longecity.

 

Edited by motorcitykid, 03 June 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[floweryriddle]

I am definitely interested in giving this a try but lack any kind of knowledge needed to make something myself or ask the right people to make it. I'll probably just end up becoming a smurf.

My guess is that commercial mb creams will still need another 1-2 years


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[motorcitykid]

I am definitely interested in giving this a try but lack any kind of knowledge needed to make something myself or ask the right people to make it. I'll probably just end up becoming a smurf.

My guess is that commercial mb creams will still need another 1-2 years


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I sent an email about the possibility of making a viable MB cream to Sarah Vaughter. I thought she might be interested in this type of venture. She has an online wellness store and used to post here.

[motorcitykid]

Sarah Vaughter got back to me - she  passed on the idea of making a low concentrated MB cream mostly because of liability issues. 

[floweryriddle]

Sarah Vaughter got back to me - she passed on the idea of making a low concentrated MB cream mostly because of liability issues.

Too bad!

So assuming we'd buy powder / solution from a nootropics vendor. How trivial would it be to make a homebrew solution for the skin that doesn't stain? I'd guess very hard without the right equipment?

Edited by dvstr, 04 June 2017 - 12:34 PM.

[aconita]

There is another tread about it in "supplements", you might find some useful information. 

 

Anyway staining and unpleasant side effects are avoided with high dilution, 

 

Methylene blue usually comes in 1% solution or you can make your own with 1g powder in 100ml distilled water.

 

One drop in 1,5l of distilled water should lead to the right dilution, applying it on a small spot for a few days will be a test worth performing (if it doesn't stain is OK).

 

You can turn that into a gel adding hyaluronic acid powder (1%) or into a liposomal cream adding granular soy lecithin in a blender for about 2 minutes.

 

1,5kg of cream or gel would be too much, of course, prepare just 15g at a time and keep in the fridge (likely not really needed but as a good measure, just in case).

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

aconita, 1,5kg (or 1.5kg as we yanks are wont to write) doesn't seem like an unreasonable batch size. Unless, perhaps, if one is thinking only of treating the face, for example. However, other potential target areas might include the neck, back of hands, elbows, and knees. But, skin is skin! So, why not think big--treat all of your skin! As in 18,000 cm^2 rather than 600 cm^2 (approx. facial area). Surely one wouldn't want to hear at the gym something like: "Wow, look at that face! It's the skin of a 20 year old!--Too bad the rest of it looks 80!"

 

 

[floweryriddle]

I might actually try this, thanks a lot for the great info here.

Ceretropic sells MB 2g for $10 and 10g for $20

Any good sources for HA powder or soy lecithin?


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[aconita]

I buy granular soy lecithin at the grocery store, for hyaluronic acid powder usually UK or German sellers on eBay but if you are in Japan there is likely a nearer option (most is made in China), possibly about 300-400KDa would be preferable for deeper penetration.

 

MB pharma grade should be ready available over the counter in any pharmacy.

[motorcitykid]

Hypnos, Aconita - thanks for the tutorial :-)

[meatsauce]

Maybe water and 25% dmso will work. 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

meatsauce,

 

Any particular reason for suggesting 25% DMSO rather than some lesser or greater concentration? I suspect that one criterion for efficacious MB (methylene blue) treatment would be to maximize MB residence-time in the target skin layers. Might 25% DMSO facilitate a greater transference of MB to underlying tissue than, say, some topical lotion such as that suggested by aconita?

 

[aconita]

Methylene blue is absorbed nicely without the need for any enhancer, DMSO is possible but as pointed out above might lead to a too fast spread to all tissues instead of focusing more on the skin layers, it likely would be more kind of a transdermal route of systemic MB administration rather than a topical skin treatment.

 

The reason for adding hyaluronic acid or lecithin is to get a gel or creamy consistency since water isn't very practical to apply (it runs off), anyway both hyaluronic acid at or below 300-400KDa and lecithin will work as carriers to enhance absorption, maybe lecithin too much so but with the advantage of liposomes.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

I calculate that one needs 1 drop of 1% MB solution for every 0.625 liters of distilled water to make a 2.5μM solution (volume of 1 drop neglected). Apparently, 2.5μM is given as a suggested upper limit for concentration because concentrations below 2.5μM  "neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use.".

 

Here is my blatant copy of a portion of post #10 of the "Methylene blue homemade skin cream?" thread in Supplements:

 

"During this two-week incubation period, we noticed the skin tissues treated with high concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and above) started to appear blue after 3 days, suggesting that MB dosage needs to be limited to avoid its colorant side effect on skin appearance. The tissues treated with lower concentrations of MB (from 0.1 μM to 2.5 μM) did not show any tissue coloring. Consistent with the ability of MB to stimulate cell proliferation, we noticed that, at the dosage of 0.5 μM, MB significantly increased cell viability in comparison to the PBS control. In addition, the tissues treated with higher concentrations of MB (5.0 μM and 10.0 μM) showed a reduction in cell viability (Fig. 4D). Based on these results, it can be concluded that low concentrations of MB (less than 2.5 μM) neither irritate nor color skin and are therefore safe for long-term use. As a result, we performed the follow-up studies with MB at concentrations below 2.5 μM."

 

The "0.5 μM" in the above stands out, at least to me, as being a better starting concentration than 2.5 μM. So, the volumes and drops should be adjusted accordingly for those who want to make a solution which is more conservative than 2.5 μM. Personally, I will start at 0.5 μM.

 

Any thoughts, anyone?

[aconita]

Hard to tell exactly but I agree, in my post above I rounded to 1.5l in order to get about 1μM, which might be good as a mid range number, anywhere between 0.5 and 1μM should do.
 

Quantitative analysis further revealed that the greatest increase in dermis thickness occurred at 0.5 μM MB

 

we found that skin hydration levels were significantly higher in EFT-412 tissues treated with MB at 0.5 μM and 2.5 μM compared to the PBS control

 

Immunohistochemistry with an anti-elastin antibody on the EFT-412 tissue cross sections revealed significantly more elastin fibers in the dermis in 0.5 μM or 2.5 μM MB-treated skin

 

To further explore whether MB regulates additional ECM components besides elastin, we screened ECM genes using the Bio-Rad PCR array, which contains 30 genes known to be involved in human ECM remodeling. Of these 30 genes, five genes, including COL2A1, IGF1, KLK3, AC002094.1, and PLG, were upregulated by MB and two genes, MMP9 and LAMC2, were downregulated by MB in EFT-412 tissues. Notably, most of these genes showed a dose-dependent response to the concentration of MB

 

 

In short some factors seems to be dose dependent, optimal dosage seems to be between 0.5 and 2.5μM with 2.5 as the very max limit (above that staining is likely to occur, in order to play safe I would set at 2μM the upper limit (considering one might apply it for relatively long periods of time, not just 3 days as in the paper above).

 

And keeping away from upper and lower limits should compensate for small dosing mistakes (always possible when handling such tiny amounts)....

 

And the study was in vitro.... 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Yeah, the "in vitro" part will definitely skew things to some currently unknown degree when attempting to extrapolate to "in vivo". As will the potential confounds of normal variations in skin thickness (both among different people and among various areas of the body on a single person), uniformity of application, diffusion coefficients for the various skin layers, state of hydration, presence of residue (dead skin, soap, sunscreen, perfume, cologne, etc.), presence of areas of damaged skin (e.g. actinic keratosis, etc.) to list just a few of the things that might affect getting an optimal dose of MB solution to the target areas.

 

"And keeping away from upper and lower limits should compensate for small dosing mistakes (always possible when handling such tiny amounts)...."--Agreed.

 

My thought is that the prepared gel or cream will serve as a "whole-body" gel/cream. There will be no "acnestis problem" (ha, ha) as long as there is someone willing to assist--and if not, there is always the fallback to doodads such as this:

 

https://www.amazon.c...ack applicator 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[green]

 

 

 

There are plenty of materials that you could try adding to a skin cream without a funky color.   Why not use white tea extract or rooibos tea extract.  This would give your skin a temporary tannish color as opposed to a blue color.

 

You can make your own extract by taking 10 tea bags and putting them in a cup of hot water.  Then take the tea (without the bags) and evaporate it in a pan on low heat into a one ounce amount. Voila.   Your extract will be a dark brown. Too much will give you an unnatural look. Rooibos extract works better as far coloring goes.

 

https://www.scienced...90810085312.htm

 

I add rooibos extract to my sunscreen to tint it.  Otherwise it is too white.

 

There are plenty of other substances you can use that supposedly have skin benefits.   I would stay away from  blue colors or yellow colors (e.g. curcumin).  It will not look good on your skin.  In fact, it will likely make you look freakish.

Edited by green, 10 June 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Leni]

So did anyone still try this out * bump * ?

[aconita]

I am using it since a couple of months, it hasn't taken 20 years off my face (yet ) but certainly there are no noticeable side effects.

 

My skin didn't have any issue to start with, the malar fat pad sagging and related facial aging features aren't likely to be addressed by MB anyway...

 

It seems to speed up minor healing (like small scratches and such), skin seems to regenerate somehow faster and there is a possible anti acne action, I don't suffer the issue but sporadic pimples seems to be vanished, it could be due by other factors but acne sufferers might try it out.

 

It might help old and new scars amelioration.

[Leni]

Interesting, thank you Aconita. I'm sorry if I somehow missed out on it (I did read the thread of course!) but where do you get your MB, and how much of it did you ultimately use in your cream? Do you use it every day/night? Thanks again!

[aconita]

I buy MB in powder at my local pharmacy for really cheap.

 

I am using it in a hyaluronic acid gel, one drop 1% solution (1g powder in 100ml distilled water) in 1,5 liter distilled water, 0,6g hyaluronic acid powder 300-400KDa in 60ml of it (enough for about 30 days).

 

I use it twice a day.

 

I added 4% niacinamide and 1 drop SSKI too (I used the same without the MB in the past, the above mentioned effects are much more marked with MB).

 

I made some without niacinamide but with glycolic acid 10% too (same as above, the effects seems better with MB).

 

I am actually alternating the two.

 

It gets completely absorbed and leaves not traces whatsoever, you can use it whenever you want since is totally invisible.

 

The hyaluronic acid gels are better kept in the fridge and used within about 30 days. 

[Leni]

Wow you're a wealth of information: thank you so much! I'm going to see if I can get MB over here too. Can you buy MB in any pharmacy in Italy - over the counter? I will visit Italy very soon so otherwise I'll take some with me. Can you buy all ingredients just over-the-counter (in Italy)?

 

(Sorry to go off-topic but since you're such a wealth of information: is there any (DIY?) Vitamin-C serum you use, or a (DIY) serum with specific anti-oxidants to protect your skin from IR-radiation too, if you don't mind me asking? Perhaps you have a topic somewhere where you describe your skincare?)

 

 

Edited by Lenie, 24 July 2017 - 01:30 AM.