64 replies to this topic

[Fletch]

I have an appointment next Monday to start TMS for depression, but I'm hesitant for few reasons...

 

 

Firstly, my parents will be paying out of pocket $12,000 and I'm wondering if that money would be better spent on alternative methods with more promising results than (as effective as antidepressants- which are a little higher than placebo)

 

Second, I'm on 10mg Valium/day without a Dr.s Rx, so I can't tell the TMS Dr. about it. 

 

Third, I've been suicidally depressed, with 3 attempts in the last few months. TMS if it works, takes several weeks. Something more immediate would be ideal, and ECT is off the table.

 

I'm concerned about how TMS may work/not work while on daily benzo, and if there is a possibility that it could in fact make my future gradual taper more difficult somehow?  I read that chronic benzo use increases rMT (resting motor threshold) but haven't researched exactly what that means or how to interpret that info so as to make it useful in practical terms regarding my concerns. Any help or ideas on this one would be great!

 

What are my other options?

 

Ketamine is a no-go. Been there, done that (albeit on my own, IM administration, anesthetic dose, and ended up repetitively dosing- i.e. psychological addiction/way to escape reality)

 

I was on Nardil for years and it worked fairly well, yet I was suicidal on it at times, including these last suicide attempts, and especially when I came off and reinstated! Intrusive suicidal impulses that I don't want to risk again.

 

SSRIs are shit. I went back to Paxil after Nardil and became a zombie who slept 20 hours a day, with disturbing vivid nightmares that were almost worse than my waking life.

 

I have some NSI-189 but didn't give it a fair run because of all the reports of increased anxiety, and concern that supply could be cut off. I also don't trust my scale to measure 10-40mg accurately, yet it's the best selling one on Amazon and I didn't see any ones with any better reviews.

 

Right now I'm on lithium orotate, fish oil, 10mg valium (which I need to get the hell off of- a hellish journey in itself), was taking 10mg memantine twice a day until I stopped today for some gut reason it was making me more depressed or causing inter-dose swings in mood perhaps, vit C, magnesium, pterostilbene, nicotinamide riboside, vit E, and started ashwagandha today.

 

What about home use devices for brain stimulation, or biofeedback? I'm pretty ignorant about those things.

 

Any advice to get me out of this recent HELL asap is highly welcomed and appreciated! Thanks

[jaybird10 2]

Sorry to hear that your going through this Fletch. I have no experience with tms. Ive heard everything regarding tms from useless to lifechanging. I think its definitely a role of the dice like it is for any of these medications and therapies that we do. Have you tried Remeron or a combination of ssri and nortriptyline? If you could get some help to get over this hump it would be great because theres so many new drugs on the horizon that should be way better.

Sorry to hear that your going through this Fletch. I have no experience with tms. Ive heard everything regarding tms from useless to lifechanging. I think its definitely a role of the dice like it is for any of these medications and therapies that we do. Have you tried Remeron or a combination of ssri and nortriptyline? If you could get some help to get over this hump it would be great because theres so many new drugs on the horizon that should be way better.

[Jiminy Glick]

Yeah what type of magnesium are you taking though? Make sure it isn't magnesium oxide. Get magnesium glycinate powder from the company Bulk Supplements. Lithium Orotate is good.

 

Ashwagandha should work. Again buy the powder, it is much cheaper. 

 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 09 June 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[sant2060]

Sorry to hear about your current condition.
When you are that deep in depression, your brain doesnt work for you. So please stop analysing too much :D


NOTHING is off the table when you are suicidal.

If ketamine worked for you, get some in proper clinic to dig you out the hole...it is a best known thing today that stops suicidal tendecies fast.

TMS takes time but works better and better, here where I am they started to do some really wonderous things with it.

Dont worry about the price, there are people that love you, and would pay 10 times as much to help you. Hell, even I would spend some money to dig you out from this shit, and I dont even know you

I cant say I know the pain you are in, it is different for all of us, I can only talk about mine...I was deep in shit, it was dark, and I had constants urges to finish it all. But I didnt. And I'm glad I didnt, because these days I feel better, and those urges seem funny to me.

And so will you. Just hang in there, talk to the professionals, dont give up, things CAN and will change.

Best od luck man.

Edited by sant2060, 09 June 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[jack black]

from my reading, the only drug that decreases suicidal tendencies is lithium, but at the doses higher than OTC. I think 300mg of Li carbonate a day is a sweet spot between low dose and full dose requiring level monitoring. thyroid has to monitored even with low doses.

[Mind_Paralysis]

and ECT is off the table.

 

WHY?

 

If you are as ill as you say, then this really SHOULD be your next stop! It works faster than TMS and the long-term side-effects are actually BETTER than nearly every type of antidepressant there is.

 

Yeah, you get short-term memory loss - but seriously, considering where your life is at, what the heck does it matter? Is there REALLY ANYTHING you actually want to remember from the last two weeks?? Anything at all?

 

 

If SSRI's doesn't work

If MAOI's doesn't work

If Lithium doesn't work

If f***ing KETAMINE doesnt work...!

 

Then where you usually go, is ECT - the results are immediate and powerful.

 

Well, if they work... One-third of all patients who receive ECT do not respond - we do, however, now actually have some idea about why that is - it seems to be connected to too low of a volume of the white-matter in the Amygdala.

 

Now... this is interesting, because there IS one specific sub-group of depressed patients whom are notoriously, ridiculously hard to treat - they are resistant to nearly every individual drug - this is because most likely the drugs prescribed do not target their specific deficits: THE BORDERLINERS!

 

The Borderliners have also been noted through recent fMRI and PET-scan studies as having a generally lower volume of amygdala than controls - than EVERY control, actually! They have also been noted to have abnormalities in the frontal lobe - meaning that they have too many emotions, and no means of CONTROLLING those, either.

 

There's also another, THIRD interesting note about Borderliners... They are the most suicidal of all patients.

 

They have the highest statistics of completed suicide - higher than Bipolar, higher than Autism, higher than Schizophrenia.

 

Suicidal... even though they are on antidepressants... even with mood-stabilisers... sound familiar?

 

 

You shouldn't fear ECT - with modern technology, the safety of the procedure have increased ten-fold. It could HELP!

 

In the long run though, I think you should consider if there is something missing in your diagnosis - could you have Borderline, or some other neurodevelopmental disease?* And if you fear ECT, wondering if it will work, considering the side-effects - then do an fMRI-scan of your amygdala - if your volume isn't notably lesser than controls (you could use your family-members as extra specific controls btw), then it WILL WORK!

 

On another note - if it turns out that ECT doesn't work, and you really do have an abnormally small amygdala, as well as a diagnosis of Borderline - then check out Hydroxynorketamine - it has been isolated as the major metabolite responsible for the antidepressant properties of Ketamine - but *WITHOUT* the addictive, hallucinatory or stimulatory properties. There was a recent group buy of the drug, and it could still be available for you - just ask the participants if they have any of it left.

 

It should also be noted... if you have Borderline... then HNK may work - because it's a nicotinic acetylcholine alpha-7 -receptor antagonist - and aCh and Alpha-7 in particular is implicated in Borderline - the Alpha-7-receptors control electrical activity out of the Amygdala - antagonising them may work as a way of cancelling out enhanced emotional tone.

 

 

References:

-------------------

 

*Yes, Borderline isn't really a "personality disorder" - new biochemical, genetic and neurogimaging data REFUTES this - it actually appears to be something similar to ADHD - an inhibition-disorder, of a genetic and neurological nature - a hereditary disease, not an acquired one.

 

 

Borderline personality disorder is a heritable brain disease

http://www.mdedge.co...order-heritable

 

 

Evidence of abnormal amygdala functioning in borderline personality disorder: a functional MRI study.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11522264

 

α7-Containing nicotinic acetylcholine receptors on interneurons of the basolateral amygdala and their role in the regulation of the network excitability.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24004528

 

 

Pre-Treatment Amygdala Volume Predicts Electroconvulsive Therapy Response

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4244657/

[Hip]

Here are some supplements and drugs that I find help with my treatment-resistant depression: 

• 5-HTP 100 mg twice daily
• High dose inositol (1 or 2 heaped teaspoons of powder daily)
• Spanish saffron 100 mg or more (several studies have found saffron to be as potent as Prozac, but without the side effects). Here's how to ensure you have real saffron, not fake. 
• Hydrogen rich water (available as tablets, electric hydrogen rich water makers, and other methods) has antidepressant effects, by boosting ghrelin. Ghrelin is a new area of research in antidepressants. MK-677 is a ghrelin mimetic, so that may be another way to boost mood (I have not tried this, but I know hydrogen rich water works).
• Very low dose amisulpride 12.5 to 50 mg daily (amisulpride is a dopamine system stabilizer) — one of the few antidepressant drugs that works for me. More info here.
• B12 methylcobalamin sublingual tablets and folinic acid 200 mcg daily (together known as the methylation protocol) I find help with my depression. 
• Tribulus terrestris 500 mg, a herb which boosts testosterone. Testosterone has good antidepressant effects.
• Glutathione powder 500 mg transdermal on skin (add a  few drops of water to help the power soak into the skin). Glutathione doesn't raise dopamine levels, but it makes receptors more sensitive to dopamine, and thereby has an antidepressant effect.

 

For my depression, I often have to take several of the above together in order to get a good effect.

 

Other supplements I find have some antidepressant effects: acetyl-L-carnitine 1000 mg, pregnenolone 50 mg, phosphatidylserine 400 mg, He Shou Wu (Polygonum multiflorum) 10:1 extract 400 mg, Peak ATP 125 mg, kava kava root powder 300 mg, Garcinia cambogia (50% hydroxycitric acid) 1000 mg, curcumin (as effective as Prozac for depression 1 ) 1000 mg — probably best to use Longvida curcumin as it has better bioavailability, VegEPA 8 capsules daily with food (VegEPA = pure EPA fish oil with no DHA), raw chocolate beans (raw cacao nibs) 4 to 8 beans.

 

With these supplement, you will need to take several together to produce a good antidepressant effect.

 

 

 

Classes of antidepressant drug include:

 

SSRI — like Prozac, Lexapro, citalopram

SNRI — like venlafaxine (Effexor), duloxetine (Cymbalta)

NRI —like bupropion (Wellbutrin)

Tricyclic antidepressants — like amitriptyline (Elavil)

Selective MAO-A inhibitors — like moclobemide

Selective MAO-B inhibitors — like deprenyl / selegiline

Neuroleptics — like very low dose amisulpride (I use this, and it works for me)

 

For more classes, see: List of antidepressants - Wikipedia

 

Have you tried selective MAO-B inhibitor drugs like deprenyl (selegiline) for depression instead of Nardil? Nardil inhibits both MAO-A and MAO-B, whereas deprenyl is selective, and only targets MAO-B. Whether that might be better or worse than Nardil I am not sure; but I think deprenyl is cleaner, so may have fewer side effects. 

 

Have you tried tricyclic antidepressants like amitriptyline? For me these work OK, and I find are infinitely better than SSRIs. When I take SSRI drugs, they make my depression much worse, and they increase suicidal thoughts dramatically. 

 

 

 

If you doctor does not want to prescribe the drugs (and amisulpride is not available in the US anyway, ony Europe), you can buy them at the reliable prescription-free pharmacies listed in this post. 

 

 

 

Are you taking Valium for anxiety? If so, see: Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

Edited by Hip, 09 June 2017 - 07:58 PM.

[Fletch]

Thanks for all the responses guys, I really appreciate it!  Just woke up and that's always the hardest time for me.

 

 

I'd like to respond to the others but Stinkorninjor, you particularly struck a chord with me...

 

I DO identify highly with BPD from the online tests I've taken. I also can see myself as being APD, and I've had OCD, body dismorphia in the past. I was recently in a bad "relationship" with a girl who almost definitely has HPD and I could relate to her in some ways and read right through her. I don't know if that speaks to BPD because I tend to be pretty aware of other people and how they operate in general.

 

Ironically I have read your thoughts on BPD in another thread, as well as the first article you linked. I have it bookmarked!

 

If I do have BPD, what should I take or not take ASAP to test this hypothesis?  I've been taking memantine and I'm not sure what role it has exactly:

 

"In conclusion, galantamine, memantine, and nicotine have different interactions with Abeta processes, alpha7 nAChRs, and NMDA receptors in APPswe mice."

 

I've used Chantix to quit smoking in the past which at one time I remember feeling as though it was actually helping my depression (was also taking Nardil/klonopin as usual).  I'm pretty sure it's an agonist of that receptor?

 

I'm afraid to go into the hospital for multiple reasons. I've been there 3 times recently for 72 hour 5150 holds. The first is I DO NOT WANT to go into benzo withdrawal. After my first attempt, I told my Dr. I used my klonopin as part of it and he took me off cold turkey. Even though I was on .5mg you still should never do that. He said that because of the memantine I probably wouldn't feel anything. Yeah right. I tried and after maybe 10 days, I couldn't sleep and had an episodic rage episode come out of nowhere because my sister who is a Psychologist basically started ignoring me and cut ties with my 4 year old niece who I was leaving upbeat audio messages back and forth with. She was pregnant and due to give birth soon and I guess she took it personally that I would "choose" to end my life when it would put stress on her/baby. I had previously expressed concern about doing it for that reason to her.  I think she's angry.

 

Also in the hospital I have no access to healthy food/supplements or ability to avoid gluten and the tons of sugar they feed you. Plus if I do have BPD then they will view it as strictly a psychological issue (which to me is ridiculous. I think ALL psychological disorders have a physical component to some degree.) All the talk therapy and group sessions with people that have schizophrenia and problems way more severe than mine just bring me down. Plus, I can still kill myself in a hospital. It happens all the time.

 

I only have state provided medical insurance as well, so inpatient programs are largely or entirely uncovered. The benzo withdrawal alone is enough! I don't want to be on them and switched from klonopin to Valium because its more readily available and figured the longer half-life would help with titration. Maybe the valium is making me more depressed but I was already suicidal, so how much worse can it get.

 

I have no career, friends, relationship...anything worth speaking of in societal measures of success, or even personal measures. I tend to latch on to one person. As a kid, one best friend for example. As an adult, one girl. I don't know what that means exactly.

 

I just really want to stay out of the hospital but I do need help really badly! I'm just trying to get by- hour to hour.

 

If anyone wants to PM me, please feel free. Right now at age 37, and no life to speak of- I just want it over. I'm barely holding on.

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited by Fletch, 09 June 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[Fletch]

I might add that I do not have a Dr. since my last one ended our 10 year, friendly, cooperative, professional relationship after I went off on him about benzo withdrawal. I brought memnatine to his attention and he thought it would be good for constant ruminating about my ex.

 

So now that I've been "self-medicating," it's going to be very difficult to find a sympathetic Dr, and honestly I'm pretty tired and disgusted with them in general (psychiatrists). I've been in self-survival mode with my back against the wall, and very short/impatient/blunt with Dr.s lately. They don't like that. They might be quick to slap a NPD Dx on me, but in all honesty I don't believe I have NPD. I'm very self-reliant, and a DIY type person, but I don't believe I'm a narcissist.

 

I'm sick of everything in life right now for probably obvious reasons, but especially psychiatry and psychology. It's too much a pseudo-science in my opinion. They can't even agree amongst themselves on diagnosis, disorders, and the DSM has become almost a joke in terms of scientific reliability. I don't care much about labels or dx. I just want to feel better!

[adamh]

I just posted a report on my use of electric brain stimulation which is supposed to help with depression and many other things. However they don't allow such reports in this area, its shunted to the little used science/ computer/ biohack forum for some reason. There are many reports of positive effects from it.

[Fletch]

Edit: figured out the technical issue with the site.

 

 

Thanks adamh, and others. I'd like to reply specifically to each one of you, but I'm pretty overwhelmed at the moment.

 

Sant2060, That's a good point about analyzing too much. That's all I do!  It's paralyzing, yet at the same time it seems necessary. For example...

 

I could just check myself in to the hospital and say "shock me." Yet there are threads on this site about people having severe depression after/as a result of ECT. Everything seems like a conundrum, paradox, or catch-22.

 

I's love to forget the past. Yet, I can imagine how that would be less than pleasant when my parents have to remind/tell me that my sister stopped talking to me and we are basically estranged. I'm in the middle of cosmetic dental work with an appointment on Monday I have yet to confirm or cancel because honestly I don't know if I'll be able to make it.

 

One minute I'm driven urgently to end it all and get rid of this endless thinking/analyzing, and then I pop an extra 5mg of Valium, take some more ashwagandha, and now I'm feeling more calm and less impulsive. My mental states are changing so rapidly. I've never been like this before. It's like rapid cycling bipolar without the mania.

 

Is this just a matter of benzo tolerance or tolerance-withdrawal? I'm only taking 10mg valium, yet the prescribing guidelines say 2-10mg 1-4 times a day (40mg max). I've read people on 80! When I was on klonopin my max daily dose was 2mg, and I managed to use water titration to slowly come down to .25mg and Nardil in this last year. I've read about people on 6+ mg klonopin/day!

 

Benzos are known to cause depression. Coming off benzos is known to cause depression. See what I mean?

 

My urgent pull toward suicide IS depression obviously, but it's also hugely FEAR... I'd say terror. So do I just need to stay sedated?

 

Some doctors would probably pull me off the benzo, and some would maybe increase it.

 

*sigh*  This is all just crazy-making. I need a drink. Of course I know that afterward I will feel worse. I just need to be able to relax and function.

 

Sorry to rant, but this isn't easy to explain or deal with. Thanks for the sentiments and especially yours Sant2060. It's these supportive comments from strangers and my sister with the Phd in Psychology who cut ties with me after coming out of the hospital after my first ever suicide attempt- and not because I was being down or negative. I was actually feeling pretty damn good at the time and just leaving friendly audio messages with my 4 year old niece!" Yet the "stress" was apparently too much for her to handle. She, "needed to focus on MY family." Her family? Does that not include her brother?

 

These doctors and book-learned "experts" have absolutely no clue what any of this feels like (most of them). I don't mean the depression/anxiety, or any other illness, but even the meds and how they feel, side effects etc.

 

Ok, I'm done ranting. Sorry.

Edited by Fletch, 10 June 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[jaybird10 2]

I can relate with what your going through. I know what its like to have a mind thats working overdrive to keep you alive and is broken down from the endless internal debate of what to do next while being in a miserable hell. Your obviously smart and have a good grasp on the reality of your situation. I dont think your benzo is causing your depression and I know for sure withdrawaing from your benzo will definitely worsen your mood. (it did for me). Remeron helped me when I was at my lowest because it sedated me to the point were I couldnt endlessly ruminate. It also really helped with sleep. There s got to be a psychiatrist outhere that will listen to your concerns and work with you to find the right medcations. Im thinking of you Flex and stay strong and fight and fight buddy.

[Fletch]

I might add that everything that has ever helped me immediately worked on gaba and/or dopamine, starting with alcohol, GHB was amazing, even caffeine can get me out of a down state.

 

Unfortunately everything that seems to help (including opiates) come with a dependence. tolerance, and terrible withdrawal. Yes in an ideal world, I would love to be off anything dependence forming, yet is a life as an alcoholic, benzo addict, or even opiate addict worse than death?

 

I remember reading a review on Amazon about a book which the title escapes me. More or less it was a humorous yet helpful book on things you can do instead of killing yourself. The premise was basically that doing ANYTHING was better than ending your life. Including drugs, unprotected-sex, gambling etc. Of course all of the suggestions weren't that extreme, but I can see the logic in it.

[Fletch]

I can relate with what your going through. I know what its like to have a mind thats working overdrive to keep you alive and is broken down from the endless internal debate of what to do next while being in a miserable hell. Your obviously smart and have a good grasp on the reality of your situation. I dont think your benzo is causing your depression and I know for sure withdrawaing from your benzo will definitely worsen your mood. (it did for me). Remeron helped me when I was at my lowest because it sedated me to the point were I couldnt endlessly ruminate. It also really helped with sleep. There s got to be a psychiatrist outhere that will listen to your concerns and work with you to find the right medcations. Im thinking of you Flex and stay strong and fight and fight buddy.

 

Thanks jaybird10! I'm trying man. Margarita in my system and feeling somewhat "normal" again. If you've been in any place similar to mine, it's like there are two opposing inner forces. The one trying to look out for you and protect you, and the one trying to destroy you. Yet, if I look at it from a different standpoint the negative one is actually just trying to "help" by ending the pain in the most permanent of ways. Or maybe that's just a front. He's a sly, tricky little bastard that one.

 

I'm looking into remeron right now, yet since I have valium for sedation wouldn't that be redundant or overkill? Nardil really did help me in many ways, especially socially. Yet it's a shotgun approach and I had a lot of background noise (thoughts, songs, etc.) on it. It was almost like adhd, which maybe I have?

 

When I see you guys taking time to help someone else, I can't help but think about how I barely have the motivation to start a thread for myself. I mostly lurk and you can usually find someone or some info that pertains to what you're going through without needing to start a new discussion. I really wish I could get in the place you guys are in, so that I was able or had the energy/drive to help others. When you're in this hole it makes you (me) feel almost worse about being so self-centered and the irony is that I'd love nothing more than to not be.

Edited by Fletch, 10 June 2017 - 02:39 AM.

[Hip]

I might add that everything that has ever helped me immediately worked on gaba and/or dopamine

 

Kava kava might be worth trying then, it works on both. It has potent anti-anxiety effects, and is a good mood booster.

 

Also, the very low dose amisulpride works on dopamine, and does so in a clever way that is not tolerance forming (it works on the dopamine autoreceptors, rather than the dopamine receptors, which prevents tolerance).

[Fletch]

 

I might add that everything that has ever helped me immediately worked on gaba and/or dopamine

 

Kava kava might be worth trying then, it works on both. It has potent anti-anxiety effects, and is a good mood booster.

 

Also, the very low dose amisulpride works on dopamine, and does so in a clever way that is not tolerance forming (it works on the dopamine autoreceptors, rather than the dopamine receptors, which prevents tolerance).

 

 

Thanks Hip, I have tried kava kava in the past and did notice some benefit from it. Would you recommend it as a daily long term supplement? I'm not familiar with amisulpride but I'll look it up. Again I don't have a psych doc and explaining my background, let alone finding an open-minded one who doesn't have a huge ego is going to be like finding a needle in a haystack. I'm pretty sure all of them, if I'm honest about my 3 recent suicide attempts are going to want me hospitalized and of course I can't mention suicidal ideation without risking an involuntary hospital hold. It's like I've lost the freedom to be honest with them, which is against my nature. If I hadn't told my last Dr. I used klonopin in my suicide attempt, I would still probably have one. Of course they have to look out for themselves too which I understand, yet they have malpractice insurance which provides lawyers, and I would have no case against him (or should I say my family) for continuing my .5mg klonopin rx regardless of the fact I abused it on that occasion. Someone just out of the hospital who's suicidal shouldn't be abruptly pulled off their 12 year daily klonopin dose. Doesn't seem like the best time to me, or in the best interest of the patient.

[Hip]

Thanks Hip, I have tried kava kava in the past and did notice some benefit from it. Would you recommend it as a daily long term supplement?

 

Kava should work particular well as a long term supplement, because it actually increases the number of GABA receptors over time, so rather than causing tolerance build-up problems like benzos, kava has a very benign reverse tolerance effect, meaning the more you use it, the more effective it becomes, due to the GABA receptor increase, without any issues of tolerance and withdrawal. 

 

This might be of interest: Best and worst online kava vendors - a subjective guide : Kava

 

 

If you like dopamine boosters, then saffron 100 mg and DL-phenylalanine 4000 mg are good choices. 

 

IN order for your brain to make dopamine, you need: tyrosine, manganese and vitamin B6.

Edited by Hip, 10 June 2017 - 03:05 AM.

[jack black]

If benzo addiction is a big part of this, OP should check himself into a detox rehab. Popping herbal remedies (or doing some expensive long term treatment or unknown efficacy) is not going to cut it. Sorry for being blunt, but I can't stand beating around the bushes.

While doing a rehab, tianeptine should work nicely on preventing excitotoxicity.

NAC has some value in addictions.

Edited by jack black, 10 June 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[Jiminy Glick]

You know what, you should try moderate Kratom types from Kratom Sensation. 

 

See if that works, it gives you a lot of euphoria and a zest for life which you may need and is noted to work for depression. So try it out. Take it on an empty stomach with a bottle of water. Scoop out a teaspoon, again finish the whole water bottle, wait 45 minutes and see how you feel. It lasts longer the longer you do not eat. So plan out your meals accordingly. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 10 June 2017 - 04:26 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

You know what, you should try moderate Kratom types from Kratom Sensation. 

 

See if that works, it gives you a lot of euphoria and a zest for life which you may need and is noted to work for depression. So try it out. Take it on an empty stomach with a bottle of water. Scoop out a teaspoon, again finish the whole water bottle, wait 45 minutes and see how you feel. It lasts longer the longer you do not eat. So plan out your meals accordingly. 

 

He just told us that he has issues with addictive tendencies.

 

So why are you even suggesting KRATOM?! We both know how infamous this little herb is for it's addictive properties - this then tells me that it's a very, very bad suggestion for someone who has an addiction-personality.

 

I would supremely prefer it if you changed your suggestion here... because addiction could instead lead him down an even darker path than he already is on.

[Jiminy Glick]

 

You know what, you should try moderate Kratom types from Kratom Sensation. 

 

See if that works, it gives you a lot of euphoria and a zest for life which you may need and is noted to work for depression. So try it out. Take it on an empty stomach with a bottle of water. Scoop out a teaspoon, again finish the whole water bottle, wait 45 minutes and see how you feel. It lasts longer the longer you do not eat. So plan out your meals accordingly. 

 

He just told us that he has issues with addictive tendencies.

 

So why are you even suggesting KRATOM?! We both know how infamous this little herb is for it's addictive properties - this then tells me that it's a very, very bad suggestion for someone who has an addiction-personality.

 

I would supremely prefer it if you changed your suggestion here... because addiction could instead lead him down an even darker path than he already is on.

 

 

If you can find any reported danger from it be my guest. Kratom isn't dangerous and I guess has a lot of antioxidants. I'm just saying it does alleviate depression. Surely he can be responsible. If he needs some zest in his life from euphoria I would recommend it. I was in a mental hospital for suicidal depression and anxiety and I got out of it, not specifically from Kratom though, they just let me out because they were sick of me. 

 

But anyways Kratom is not dangerous it is actually used to get people off of pharma painkillers. Have you ever tried it? It is extremely mood lifting. I would not recommend fast kratom though, only moderate, this causes less of a sleepy crash (it is in the same family as coffee I think), moderate Kratom though is much more euphoric, mood lifting, and relaxing.  

 

Who knows if it is even addictive, though things that make you feel good usually are addictive and that is fine. For him I would say 4-5 days a week is fine. That is what I did when I was taking it. But you would need to have different strains because a strain will lose potency if you take the same one everyday. So it is best to have 2 different strains if you are taking it 4-5 days a week. Moderation is good with Kratom, 7 days a week just isn't cost effective anyway with Kratom, two 50 gram bags are like $70 with shipping. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 10 June 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[Fletch]

If benzo addiction is a big part of this, OP should check himself into a detox rehab. Popping herbal remedies (or doing some expensive long term treatment or unknown efficacy) is not going to cut it. Sorry for being blunt, but I can't stand beating around the bushes.

While doing a rehab, tianeptine should work nicely on preventing excitotoxicity.

NAC has some value in addictions.

I was prescribed 2mg clonazepam in 2006 for the symptoms of Effexor withdrawal. I was told it was fine to keep taking it and did for years. I don't think "addiction" is the correct word because it leaves out the physical dependency component.

I have slowly weaned off them inn the past when I wasn't in shuch a dark place. Detox tapers people much too quickly.

Dr. Heather Ashton specializes in this and her protocol is no more than 10% every two weeks. This is one of the main reasons people sufffer horrrible benzo w/d which can be protracted for years some times. Drs take them off way too fast and their understanding of benzo withdrawal is years behind what it should be.

 

Also, are you implying that benzos are causing the depression?

 

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. Say I were to go into a detox for a few weeks. Then I would come out with an essentially raw CNS and damaged gaba receptors. In what way is that going to help my depression? I was on Nardil which is usually used when several other medications have failed and yet that wasn't enough. I don't know if Tianeptine is even available by Rx in the US, and I'm not sure where you live but it's my experience with most psychiatrists that they don't like the patient "requesting" drugs that aren't the usual ssri, snri, tricyclic, maoi, etc... meaning they have a limited "list" of drugs they are willing/comfortable using (mostly the most common ones).

Edited by Fletch, 10 June 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[Fletch]

I have never looked into Kratom to be honest because I understand it's an opiod agonist, and have read some people having addiction problems with it.  I have heard the same thing about tianeptine, although I believe it is less risky. It's difficult because of so many anecdotal differing experiences. I think tianeptine may be a good option to treat the depression component. I understand there are two forms with different dosing requirements.

 

When I was younger my addictive/impulsive nature was much stronger. I've been burned too many times and I'm in too dark of a place to gamble with opiates. I recently denied fentanyl and a strong benzo for a physical procedure I had done for this very reason.

 

I have ithium orotate for exitotoxicity as well as memantine, and CBD might help as well. Ashwagandha is a powerful herb and shouldn't be discounted. To say "herbs" aren't going to cut it, IMO isn't a very informed statement. Herbs can be just as powerful as drugs in many cases.

 

http://www.deepscyth...ety-depression/

"I have been on Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Wellbutrin, and Xanax, and none of them even came close to what ashwagandha has done for me especially with no side effects. It is good to see there is scientific data supporting what I know works amazingly well."

 

Does anyone have a good source for tianeptine or opinions on what form?

 

I ordered some years ago from Liftmode I believe. I didn't like the 3 times a day dosing requirement and didn't experiment with it much. The stories of addiction and withdrawal deterred me as well. Should I give it another run?

Edited by Fletch, 10 June 2017 - 09:54 PM.

[Jiminy Glick]

I have never looked into Kratom to be honest because I understand it's an opiod agonist, and have read some people having addiction problems with it.  I have heard the same thing about tianeptine, although I believe it is less risky. It's difficult because of so many anecdotal differing experiences. I think tianeptine may be a good option to treat the depression component. I understand there are two forms with different dosing requirements.

 

When I was younger my addictive/impulsive nature was much stronger. I've been burned too many times and I'm in too dark of a place to gamble with opiates. I recently denied fentanyl and a strong benzo for a physical procedure I had done for this very reason.

 

I have ithium orotate for exitotoxicity as well as memantine, and CBD might help as well. Ashwagandha is a powerful herb and shouldn't be discounted. To say "herbs" aren't going to cut it, IMO isn't a very informed statement. Herbs can be just as powerful as drugs in many cases.

 

http://www.deepscyth...ety-depression/

"I have been on Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Wellbutrin, and Xanax, and none of them even came close to what ashwagandha has done for me especially with no side effects. It is good to see there is scientific data supporting what I know works amazingly well."

 

Does anyone have a good source for tianeptine or opinions on what form?

 

I ordered some years ago from Liftmode I believe. I didn't like the 3 times a day dosing requirement and didn't experiment with it much. The stories of addiction and withdrawal deterred me as well. Should I give it another run?

 

How old are you? Also why do you not have a career? 

 

Nutrients (medicine) along with psychological understanding of "perceived" problems in your life are probably your cure. Outside of the stuff I mentioned, you need to psychologically learn to be comfortable with yourself (hence the temptations to kill yourself). You mentioned you had a close friend who was a girl. Also your sister has distanced herself from you. You need to find a new girl and also really try to fix things with your sister (the best way to do this is to be more mature than her because it seems like she was wrong in her choice, give her the old brother/sister rivalry to get her attention). Become closer to your other family members to get her attention as well. Also you should embrace your craziness, be spontaneous (as you seem reserved for you mentioned you don't have a social life), take risks in life and follow your passions for a good career and fulfilling life.

 

Anyways, Kratom is nice. I took it out of my stack though, too expensive with everything else and then terms of ingesting all these supplements properly becomes a problem if your taking too much. You might want to experiment with it though to understand bliss. Lithium Orotate (pure encapsulation brand, no magnesium stearate), Ashwagandha, Magnesium Glycinate, Multivitamin with no magnesium stearate (NOW brand) and proper Vitamin D levels along with getting enough sunshine, are all things you can incorporate that are imperative for you in my opinion. 

 

Also if you like Ashwagandha look into the other adaptogen herbs out there. I agree they are really powerful. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 10 June 2017 - 11:52 PM.

[jack black]

Does anyone have a good source for tianeptine or opinions on what form?

I ordered some years ago from Liftmode I believe. I didn't like the 3 times a day dosing requirement and didn't experiment with it much. The stories of addiction and withdrawal deterred me as well. Should I give it another run?

It's available OTC in USA. All you need to do is to Google. Tianeptine free acid requires 1-2 doses a day unlike the sodium salt that has rapid absorption and short half life. As for that uninformed insult, I'm going to ignore it. Good luck with your recovery.

Edited by jack black, 10 June 2017 - 11:40 PM.

[Jiminy Glick]

I also would encourage you to indulge in the arts for example music.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcTlHWRXGsc

 

 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 11 June 2017 - 12:30 AM.

[gamesguru]

lay off the valium, and potentially the kratom as well.  it's an antianhedonic nicotinic and gabaergic anatagonist with an addictive caveat putting it in the same class as stuff you ought to avoid.. phenibut and marijuana.  consider rhodiola, as it most closely resembles nardil.  lithium orotate may give the needed boost in mood.  stick to your exercise and good diet to keep out of the ward.  and as long as we're posting random stuff..

 

 

Edited by gamesguru, 11 June 2017 - 01:19 AM.

[Jiminy Glick]

lay off the valium, and potentially the kratom as well.  it's an antianhedonic nicotinic and gabaergic anatagonist with an addictive caveat putting it in the same class as stuff you ought to avoid.. phenibut and marijuana.  consider rhodiola, as it most closely resembles nardil.  lithium orotate may give the needed boost in mood.  stick to your exercise and good diet to keep out of the ward.  and as long as we're posting random stuff..

 

 

 

No mine was not random, I was recommending art to give him a zest for life for a therapeutic approach. Yours is art as well. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 11 June 2017 - 01:43 AM.

[Fletch]

lay off the valium, and potentially the kratom as well.  it's an antianhedonic nicotinic and gabaergic anatagonist with an addictive caveat putting it in the same class as stuff you ought to avoid.. phenibut and marijuana.  consider rhodiola, as it most closely resembles nardil.  lithium orotate may give the needed boost in mood.  stick to your exercise and good diet to keep out of the ward.  and as long as we're posting random stuff..

 

 

 

I agree, thanks for the advice. I wish it were as simple as laying off. Over a decade of daily use requires a long and gradual titration. Oh, and I dig the classic Weazer. Wish they would have put out more. We must be around the same age.
 

Edited by Fletch, 11 June 2017 - 01:58 AM.

[Fletch]

For anyone who's interested in TMS, I had my third session today. Too early to tell if it's helping and will always be impossible to attribute any improvement solely to TMS, considering just getting out of the house everyday is an improvement. It boarders on painful, an it is like a wood pecker on your skull, but the "pain" or sensation shoots down all the way to my left eye. They told me that's normal.