22 replies to this topic

[AppliedBio]

I am a 26 year old male who has looked younger than my biological age for most of my life. However, over the past 6 - 12 months, I have been struck by the dreaded onset of nasolabial folds, tear troughs, and sagging skin below the inferior rim of my orbit that make my lower eyelids appear swollen. All of this has seemed to have aged me considerably. I suspect this could be lifestyle related - largely sedentary, poor diet (vegan, but lots of refined carbs), drop in maintenance weight from ~138 to 133, etc.  I've noticed these aging marks are less visible after showering, working out, or smiling for a while. Some people on this board have had moderate success with breast enlargement creams such as Volufiline or Isosensuals. Is that an option (if so, where should I apply it exactly?), or are fillers the only solution here? And any other recommendations to minimize further degradation of the situation would be appreciated as well.

 

Thanks,

Michael

 

[Images deleted]

Edited by Mind, 10 December 2018 - 07:05 PM.

[Qowpel]

First of all. Wear sunscreen daily. If you do not, expect it to get worse. Two. Put on the weight you lost. That will likely alleviate some of what you are worried about. Do these things first. Then take further action

[Ben]

Are you:

 

- Doing an hour of exercise every day?

- Sleeping right?

- Taking an antihistamine to sleep (or some other medication that might case facial oedema)?

- At an acceptable percentage of body fat for your height?

 

Retin a will likely not work under the eye. There is a discussion on this and there is a fear that it might remove fat.

 

 

[Kturner1990]

I posted about the same thing not that long ago. I've tried creams with bee pollen and other plumping creams which only helps a tiny bit. It happened to me all of a sudden as well (I'm 27 now) Fillers have been the only thing that makes my face look like it used to. I wish they lasted longer because they are so expensive. Doctors order them for 100 a syringe and then charge the patient 500-1000 for one. I learned how to do it myself because of that. PRP can also help refresh the top layer of your facial skin. If you get that and filler which goes deeper you will have great results. Again, with prp all a doctor does is draw a tube of your blood and put the separated serum in a syringe and inject it very shallow in your skin. Literally no out of pocket cost for them( except a centrifuge which they probably already have)but they charge 1500 dollars here for it. I am planning on taking a course in that as well so I can do it myself. I'm pretty sure sun damage played a role in mine so I'm not expecting my skin to ever improve dramatically without steady cosmetic intervention and hopefully now I can keep it from getting worse. But if I'm going to do this until I'm old I'm definitely not going to pay thousands of dollars each year when there is a cheaper alternative. I've also started wearing a good sunblock and applying it every couple of hours. Also drinking only water and trying a plant based diet. Young again.com has some good no nonsense advice on vitamins and creams and they sell products as well. I use the miraculous cream which has really helped, especially with my pores and fine lines. Maybe get a complete blood panel done also to make sure there's nothing off. Ask for a copy of the results even if they say everything is normal. I work at a doctors office and they tell people their results are normal even if they are a little low, which could mean they will get worse in the future.

[aconita]

The cause is a sagging of the malar fat pad, not much other than surgical can be done which includes autologous fat graft, surgical reposition or implants.

 

Fillers like cross linked hyaluronic acid might achieve good results but are temporary (needs to be repeated once a year or so).

 

An attempt with volufiline and/or isosensual (of which the latter seems more effective but the use of both together or one after the other might lead to more evident results) might be done but results aren't documented as far as I know, yet worth a try.

 

Care should be employed in application on the the proper area (just spreading the cream over the face isn't likely to achieve good results).

 

Keep in mind that:

 

"Aging of the craniofacial skeleton is not merely the result of bone atrophy but is also due to a change in the relative dynamics of bone

expansion and bone loss.

 

There is an appreciable reduction in facial height, which is mainly due to changes in the maxilla and mandible, and a modest increase in facial width and depth. The orbits increase in size, whereas the maxilla decreases in size, compounding the inferior displacement of the malar fat pad and accentuation of the nasolabial fold.

 

Facial aging is associated with loss of soft tissue fullness in certain areas (periorbital, forehead, malar, temporal, mandibular, mental, glabellar, and perioral sites) and persistence or hypertrophy of fat in others (submental, lateral nasolabial fold and labiomental crease, jowls, infraorbital fat pouches,and malar fat pads.

 

In addition to redistribution of facial fat and concomitant loss of surrounding fullness, the fat pockets become more discernible as separate entities, as do many of the underlying facial structures, such as the submaxillary glands and bony protuberances.

With age, the malar fat pad gradually slides forward and down to bulge against the nasolabial crease, giving rise to the prominence of

the nasal fold in the aged face."

 

From:

 

http://www.colemanli...006-Coleman.pdf

 

The aim should be to fill up the hollows while sparing the excesses, not just merely adding everywhere.

 

[AppliedBio]

Hi all.

 

Thanks for the input. I went away a week ago for a sports tournament and ended up gaining ~5 pounds. Noticed dramatic improvement to my problem areas. However, I have since lost that weight and am mostly back at square 1 . Someone mentioned a possible allergy causing puffiness around my eyes and I actually think there may be some merit to that. My mother dropped by for a visit yesterday and she said my eyes looked swollen (which was atypical for me). Additionally, I noticed that I have been sneezing pretty frequently while in my apartment over the past couple months. Likely something in the air here  - perhaps coming from my AC unit. Should also probably change the filter in my air purifier. Visit to an allergist probably wouldn't hurt either since this sort of thing has happened to me before in the summer - I tend to be sensitive to fragrances / random compounds in the air.

 

As for products, my routine is pretty simple right now (Cleanse, moisturize with CeraVe, throw on LRP Anthelios XL sunscreen - European formulation).

KTurner1990 - I have come across the miraculous cream before and will likely give it a try considering how cheap it is.

Aconita, I've seen you recommend Alpha Lipoic Acid in other threads. How would I about making my own serum for this?

Other things I'm looking into include: 

 

Niacinamide (Or perhaps NIA24 instead???)

Skinceuticals Vitamin C serum (will likely purchase DIY kit from LotionCrafters)

MitoQ

Juvess

 

I just picked up these glycolic acid pads a couple weeks ago and have begun using them about 2x a week:

http://www.ulta.com/...Impprod12681127

It's 5% glycolic, but I plan to work my way up to higher concentrations. 

 

In terms of lifestyle - I actually revamped my diet recently to include much higher concentrations of leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables, tomatoes, mushrooms, berries, and less refined carbs. I began exercising regularly again (resistance training 2 - 3x a week plus some light cardio 1x). Working out + shower makes my face look so full and youthful. Also trying to include more protein in my diet. Noticed a lot of loose hair strands the past few weeks. Started buying protein bars again and currently considering buying collagen supps. I also have some mental issues that have interfered with my life which caused me to become anti social / depressed for some time (very unlike me...) where I would just (literally) sit in my apartment all day for a week(s) with no contact with the outside world. That's more or less under control now thankfully. Resolution of all these factors will make a bit of a difference.

 

Aconita - interesting mention of deterioration of craniofacial skeleton. I found a couple interesting papers over the weekend about this and it seems like a critical part of the aging face, yet is rarely addressed. I will be making a separate thread about this. As for the malar fat pad issue, I am going to try to gain more weight over the next month or two and see if that helps. If that fails, my plan is to experiment with targeted application of Isosensuals cream (a) infraorbitally (b) along the zygomatic arch and © along my nasolabial groove, as depicted below (taken from a presentation on dermal fillers):

 

 

If that all fails, then I will consider shelling out $$$ for fillers.

[aconita]

ALA isn't water soluble therefore a bit tricky, I use it solving in DMSO with urea, buy your issue isn't about skin, those kind of topicals are unlikely to make any difference. 

 

I might sound redundant since I often mention it but...

 

Your issues may, at least in part, be due to mild hypothyroidism, leave alone standard tests since at your level are unlikely to show anything relevant.

 

Instead check your basal temperature.

 

Cold hands and/or feet, fear of cold (in winter, of course ), sparse outer eyebrows, thin/fragile hairs, low energy?

 

With Isosensuals I would focus on malar eminence, glabella and infraorbital.

 

More volume in the infraorbital and zigomatic arch should tighten the skin where once the malar fat pad was ameliorating the nasolabial folds (pulling up).

 

The submalar area is where the malar fat pad is now therefore causing the nasolabial folds, I would avoid increasing subcutaneous fat there since it might aggravate the situation further (pulling down).

 

The nasolabial fold itself might be tricky with isosensual since it is too localized (fillers can be injected very precisely while isosensual action I doubt would be so selective, the risk being to increasing fat load to the already dropping malar fat pad near by), I would eventually leave it as last attempt,   

[ekaitz]

what about red light therapy as a non-invasive treatment?

[Kturner1990]

what about red light therapy as a non-invasive treatment?

I purchased one for this purpose at the suggested nm level. 600 i think? Anyway I've been using it mostly everyday and have yet to see any noticeable changes. I'm going to give it a few more months. It can be used for plant growing so at least I have a back-up plan for use, and it's not a total waste. 

[aconita]

Is a bit too short in wave length, 850-940nm seems better (Near Infra Red), at that length there is no visible light.

 

The led should be in contact with the skin or almost so.

 

 

[Kturner1990]

Is a bit too short in wave length, 850-940nm seems better (Near Infra Red), at that length there is no visible light.

The led should be in contact with the skin or almost so.

Interesting. I purchased that one because that's the length my facialist suggested. I'll have to look into it. I would assume that that's what they use since she suggested it. I guess it's possible that a spa could use in-effective products but I would HOPE they don't. Unless she suggested that so I would return there because my home treatments wouldn't be as effective.

[aconita]

You should do some research about NIR, it isn't really easy since it is relatively new and not all mechanisms of action are fully understood, one thing is for sure: as therapeutic NIR is the most promising at the time being... and NIR is about between 820 and 950nm or so.

 

The longer the wave length the deeper it goes, power diminishes exponentially with distance from source (the closer the better), NIR is invisible to the human eye and doesn't makes it appealing (one switches it on and nothing seems to happen) therefore often length in the visible spectrum (below 800nm) are used instead to please the customer or led of different wave length are used together in order to give the feeling of the device actually being on. 

 

It is an interesting topic which deserves its own thread. 

[happy lemon]

Take a look of these products to see if any of them fits you:
https://www.theledman.com

[ekaitz]

Is a bit too short in wave length, 850-940nm seems better (Near Infra Red), at that length there is no visible light.

 

The led should be in contact with the skin or almost so.

 

Im not very much with you on this. NIR or over 900nm goes indeed deeper but it requires caution because it tends to melt subcutaneous fat. 630nm is not because for people "to see a light", but because in the research we have by now, thats one of the lengthwaves used, along with 830nm, and proven to have positive effects.

 

Problem with much of the devices out there is they wont reach the intensity needed to see results; for red light a minimum dose of 100J/cm2 should be needed.

Edited by ekaitz, 05 August 2017 - 01:12 AM.

[happy lemon]

......for red light a minimum dose of 100J/cm2 should be needed.

 

 

Where did you get this requirement?

 

Even Warp 10 or 75 can only deliver 4 Joules per cm2, I want to know which LED light can produce such high power.

[ekaitz]

 

......for red light a minimum dose of 100J/cm2 should be needed.

 

 

Where did you get this requirement?

 

Even Warp 10 or 75 can only deliver 4 Joules per cm2, I want to know which LED light can produce such high power.

 

 

No, by Joules I mean the dose, which is time dependant. The intensity or irradiance is in mW/cm2. For a led array which light reach your skin at 100mW/cm2, you'll get close to 100J/cm2 in about 15min. That dose is OK for visible red light, around 630nm.

[Kturner1990]

 

......for red light a minimum dose of 100J/cm2 should be needed.

 

 

Where did you get this requirement?

 

Even Warp 10 or 75 can only deliver 4 Joules per cm2, I want to know which LED light can produce such high power.

 

From my research I didn't think that there was a red led that was higher than 800ish either. I'm pretty sure there's not. 

[Nate-2004]

You're 26, you are young enough that you can probably reverse a lot of this, I think. Just hypothetically, hopefully without surgery.

 

The first thing I thought when I saw your post was that you may not be getting the essential 7 hours sleep and if so, it isn't quality sleep. Be sure to follow all the sleep hygiene rules and get a sleep study done to determine whether you have sleep apnea. 

 

All that said, the lifestyle advice above is good. 

[Nate-2004]

You should do some research about NIR, it isn't really easy since it is relatively new and not all mechanisms of action are fully understood, one thing is for sure: as therapeutic NIR is the most promising at the time being... and NIR is about between 820 and 950nm or so.

 

The longer the wave length the deeper it goes, power diminishes exponentially with distance from source (the closer the better), NIR is invisible to the human eye and doesn't makes it appealing (one switches it on and nothing seems to happen) therefore often length in the visible spectrum (below 800nm) are used instead to please the customer or led of different wave length are used together in order to give the feeling of the device actually being on. 

 

It is an interesting topic which deserves its own thread. 

 

I experimented with NIR early this year and I didn't see much in terms of results, but perhaps I was over using it. The dose makes the poison. I may revisit it on a once a week 20 mins dosage just to see.

[Caravaggio]

It's very likely that you have too much Omega-6 and a lack of Omega-3 in your diet.

 

 

Proportions of LC n-3 PUFA in erythrocyte membranes, plasma fatty acids and concentrations of plasma LC n-3 PUFA-derived lipid mediators were significantly lower in vegans.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28366178

 

http://lpi.oregonsta...ial-fatty-acids

 

 

This video also covers this problem (bad Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio):

 

 

Additionally you can be a good or a bad converter of alpha-Linolenic acid to EPA/DHA.

 

Even on the healthiest vegan diet you'd be low in EPA/DHA then.

 

So you should consider taking algae oil. If you're a good converter then flax seed oil would be sufficient.

[DoghouseReilly]

We should all be chewing a hard gum like mastic for 30-60 minutes a day to maintain craniofacial structure. We all understand the importance of exercise, but we don't exercise our faces to prevent bone loss and drooping/lengthening. And I don't mean easy trendy face exercises. I mean hard chewing that makes every muscle in the face exhausted. This is, imo, one of the major missing links. I have had massive success over the past several years incorporating this into my life. My entire face and bone structure have changed for the better, and I no longer fear drooping or atrophy or bone loss in the face.

[Caravaggio]

Just lost all text I wrote because longecity site times out all the time and all the text ist lost when you go back.

 

So I just write a short summary.

 

Low protein diet, enough protein to not cause Kwashiorkor, body tries to preservere brain and steals protein from skin, brain is composed of proteins and lipds.

 

Metabolites in Proton Spectroscopy of the Brain:

Neurochemistry and Physiology

Josef Pfeuffer

Max-Planck Institute for Biological Cybernetics

 

http://www.kyb.mpg.d...dfs/pdf2059.pdf

 

Highest vegan food in protein in USDA Food Composition Databases nutrients list are basically only soy protein isolate, tofu, seitan etc.

 

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/nutrients

 

While the pork, beef, cheese have about 25-34% of protein per 100 g.

 

So your refined carbohydrate diet could have caused the wrinkles unless you ate tofu, mock meats and other high protein foods.

 

So you have to make smart food choices as a vegan while you don't have to think at all when you're an omnivore.

[kyle75]

Just anecdotally, I started being obsessed with my nasolabial folds in my mid-20s, very self-conscient and thought they made me look like Droopy. So I went straight to the "final solution": I got rid of them surgically when I was 35. I felt transformed and the good news is that only me can see the scars because they are absolutely inconspicuous. When people ask where the scar is I have to pull my skin real taught and point exactly where it is, but even then people are like "I don't see anything". Best $3500 I have ever spent.

 

For general information here is a picture of a man I found in google pictures having the same nasolabial removal procedure I had.