39 replies to this topic

[MikeDC]

http://investors.chr...&d=1&id=2302806

[mrkosh1]

I find it so funny that a few years ago an online blogger about aging tried to claim that NR and NMN couldn't sustain a boost in NAD+ for any length of time because the body would downregulate production. Now we know it stays up! Of course, we don't know exactly how significant the health benefits are compared to other supplements. For example, other supplements boost NAD+ via various mechanisms such as activating AMPK (AICAR, R-ALA, Ubiquinol, Sulforaphane) but we don't know how they compare. AMPK is why exercise boosts NAD+, BTW. 

 

The most important thing here is that NAD+ was upregulated for a significant period of time. This is very important. As I said before, there were online cynics who dismissed the idea this was possible only a couple years ago. 

[MikeDC]

Other mechanisms of increasing NAD+ beside NR and NMN replies on over expression of NAMPT since it is the rate limiting step of NAD+ recycling. So they are not as effective as NR and NMN. Another important aspect is NAMPT over expression stimulates inflammation and as a result of inflammation.

[able]

I find it so funny that a few years ago an online blogger about aging tried to claim that NR and NMN couldn't sustain a boost in NAD+ for any length of time because the body would downregulate production. Now we know it stays up! Of course, we don't know exactly how significant the health benefits are compared to other supplements. For example, other supplements boost NAD+ via various mechanisms such as activating AMPK (AICAR, R-ALA, Ubiquinol, Sulforaphane) but we don't know how they compare. AMPK is why exercise boosts NAD+, BTW. 

 

The most important thing here is that NAD+ was upregulated for a significant period of time. This is very important. As I said before, there were online cynics who dismissed the idea this was possible only a couple years ago. 

 

Perhaps you mean Vince Giuliano and Vince Watson?  I believe it was in this post

 

http://www.anti-agin...life-extension/

 

You're right, it is great news that we now have proof that they were wrong, and we CAN boost NAD+ long term simply thru supplements.

 

Would be even better if they had some positive results on some of the metabolic markers they tested for.  

 

Since they don't mention anything other than elevated NAD+ levels in the press release, that might be the extent of the good news.  Still waiting...

[MikeDC]

The health benefits will be from the Colorado trial. It will be published soon.

[able]

I think that IS the Colorado trial mentioned in the press release.

 

I didn't see any links, but they say "140 humans over an 8 week period", which is phase 2 of the colorado trial.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5389020/

 

So, yes, they say it will publish soon.  They didn't give any hints about positive results on metabolic health that were tested, but they do have to be careful about what they say for legal reasons, so I'm still hopeful.

 

 

 

Edited by able, 26 September 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[MikeDC]

This is not the Colorado trial. This is ChromaDex's own trial done in Canada.

[mrkosh1]

 

I find it so funny that a few years ago an online blogger about aging tried to claim that NR and NMN couldn't sustain a boost in NAD+ for any length of time because the body would downregulate production. Now we know it stays up! Of course, we don't know exactly how significant the health benefits are compared to other supplements. For example, other supplements boost NAD+ via various mechanisms such as activating AMPK (AICAR, R-ALA, Ubiquinol, Sulforaphane) but we don't know how they compare. AMPK is why exercise boosts NAD+, BTW. 

 

The most important thing here is that NAD+ was upregulated for a significant period of time. This is very important. As I said before, there were online cynics who dismissed the idea this was possible only a couple years ago. 

 

Perhaps you mean Vince Giuliano and Vince Watson?  I believe it was in this post

 

http://www.anti-agin...life-extension/

 

You're right, it is great news that we now have proof that they were wrong, and we CAN boost NAD+ long term simply thru supplements.

 

Would be even better if they had some positive results on some of the metabolic markers they tested for.  

 

Since they don't mention anything other than elevated NAD+ levels in the press release, that might be the extent of the good news.  Still waiting...

 

 

That is the blog post. I hope he posts a new one to correct the following statement.

 

"In the growing excitement about NAD science during last two years, some researchers and entrepreneurs have further thought that human NAD+ levels can likely be enhanced by ongoing supplementation with NAD precursors such as nicotinamide riboside (NR) or  with  nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), The thinking has been that such supplementation might make a significant difference in human health and longevity.  However direct evidence  that NAD levels can be non-transiently enhanced in humans, either intracellular or extra-cellular, is thin to nonexistent.  No direct research shows this.  Likewise, evidence that human health or longevity benefits will result from continuous NAD precursor supplementats  is equally thin,  Enhancement of SIRT1 levels in mice via NMN supplementation and associated health benefits has been observed in only short term trials with mice, ones that lasted only 7 or 10 days (ref)(ref). There appears to be no clear evidence however, either human or animal, that continuing to take a NAD precursor supplement over a long term can lead to higher continuing levels of NAD+ or the many health benefits hypothesized to ensue."

[able]

Ah, you're probably right.  I see the KGK Synergies sponsored canadian trial is for 8 weeks with 100,300, 1000 mg NR, which matches the press release.

 

https://clinicaltria...e&draw=2&rank=7

 

Does have some secondary measure testing, although not as much as the Colorado trial.

 

 

• Resting Metabolic Rate [ Time Frame: 8 weeks: from baseline to end of study ]
  Change in Levels (kcal/day) Assessed by the ReeVue Indirect Calorimeter
• Expression profile: Branched Amino Acids [ Time Frame: 8 weeks: from baseline to end of study ]
• Expression profile: high sensitivity C-reactive protein [ Time Frame: 8 weeks: from baseline to end of study ]

 

[bluemoon]

They are discussing a recent ChromaDex presentation over at 'CDXC Yahoo Converstations' but without a link. I couldn't find it.

 

2 hrs ago: "Note to Bob Fried: If it's not worth your time to look at the slides in advance, that sends a really clear signal to the audience that the slides aren't worth their time, either. And at an investors' conference, it signals that the company is run by people who don't take the company seriously and are undisciplined. Frank, don't let go of the microphone next time."

 

2 hrs ago: "That presentation was hard to defend. Even the slides had a couple typos. That wasn't very good. I guess fortunately they have a product that sells itself because as an investor if that was my first introduction to the company I would have some doubts about the people running it."

 

[MikeDC]

I didn't look at the slides. But Fried sounded good and communicated the huge break through NR is to the human health. He is excited and he has been taking it. I am not so sure about Frank. He just doesn't have the commitment to NR science and has a see as we go attitude.

[bluemoon]

I didn't look at the slides. But Fried sounded good and communicated the huge break through NR is to the human health. He is excited and he has been taking it. I am not so sure about Frank. He just doesn't have the commitment to NR science and has a see as we go attitude.

 

Where did you and others watch this? The above is interesting because Frank is the one who has been so excited until this summer. 

[bluemoon]

I just listened to the 25 minute talk and like the August shareholders conference call was less than inspiring. (Nothing new from August for those interested.) I still think ChromaDex is being disingenous saying it will probably "allow" 5 to 10 vendors to continue in 2018. No, they just know that they can't take those larger vendor's NR off the market that quickly.   

[mrkosh1]

What I want to know is when NR prices will come down. I have about a month and a half supply, and I need to know if I should buy now or wait. 

[able]

You've got it backwards mrkosh1.  Prices are going up.  

 

Their goal is to force out other sellers so that all will be charging what TruNiagen costs now, or more.

 

But as much as you can afford now.

Edited by able, 27 September 2017 - 01:26 AM.

[bluemoon]

I agree that Chromadex wants $50 a bottle for NR but disagree that you should buy as much as possible now. I'm buying the next three months and maybe the next six (HPN), but it is obvious that Chromadex's monopoly will never come back. They screwed up the patent angle of this whole thing, so I'd expect NR will be around current prices all through 2018 and maybe less. Elysium doesn't have a lock either. It is easy to see $15 a bottle from mid 2018 since no longer a monopoly product. (If money isn't a big deal, then I'd buy a lot now)

[MikeDC]

You never are a logical thinker. Who said ChromaDex patent is lost? Look at yourself in the mirror before criticizing others.

[able]

I agree that Chromadex wants $50 a bottle for NR but disagree that you should buy as much as possible now. I'm buying the next three months and maybe the next six (HPN), but it is obvious that Chromadex's monopoly will never come back. They screwed up the patent angle of this whole thing, so I'd expect NR will be around current prices all through 2018 and maybe less. Elysium doesn't have a lock either. It is easy to see $15 a bottle from mid 2018 since no longer a monopoly product. (If money isn't a big deal, then I'd buy a lot now)

 

Agree.  I responded a bit too quickly earlier. 

 

It is quite possible 2018 will bring more competition for Chromadex and lower prices.  

[Turnbuckle]

I didn't realize that there was a problem with the patents, so I looked at those listed on the Chromadex site. The broadest claim in on patent 8,383,086, which claims: 1. A pharmaceutical composition comprising nicotinamide riboside in admixture with a carrier, wherein said composition is formulated for oral administration.

 

Its Achilles heel is that it doesn't prevent someone from selling NR without a carrier.

 

Patent 8,197,807 has an interesting claim: 1. A composition comprising isolated nicotinamide riboside in combination with one or more of tryptophan, nicotinic acid, or nicotinamide... 

 

 

 

[Nate-2004]

I abhor the patent system. 

 

Is anything published for this yet? 

 

I was expecting Chromadex stock to go up in response to this, it's not really gone up.

Edited by Nate-2004, 27 September 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[MikeDC]

The Colorado trial results and Q3 earnings will probably get CDXC over $6.25.

[stefan_001]

I didn't realize that there was a problem with the patents, so I looked at those listed on the Chromadex site. The broadest claim in on patent 8,383,086, which claims: 1. A pharmaceutical composition comprising nicotinamide riboside in admixture with a carrier, wherein said composition is formulated for oral administration.

 

Its Achilles heel is that it doesn't prevent someone from selling NR without a carrier.

 

Patent 8,197,807 has an interesting claim: 1. A composition comprising isolated nicotinamide riboside in combination with one or more of tryptophan, nicotinic acid, or nicotinamide... 

 

The 8,383,086 seems quite solid because Elysium has filed an Inter Partes Review complaints before the USPTO's Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) that challenges the validity of Patents 8,383,086 and 8,197,807.

[bluemoon]

I abhor the patent system. 

 

Is anything published for this yet? 

 

I was expecting Chromadex stock to go up in response to this, it's not really gone up.

 

First, I think the stock did go up on this news, but earlier in September. Second, contrary to what MikeDC wrote the press release did not say the results are about to be published but instead: "The full results of the study will be submitted for publication in a peer review journal shortly."    

 

It is funny that for over half a year ChromaDex has told its investors that they will "release top line results" 1) in June/July then 2) in late summer and now 3) "in the coming months." But the press release says: "ChromaDex Announces Top-line Results of its Second Human Clinical Trial." The only problem is that no top-line results were given! Amature hour.

 

Here is the cringe worthy webcast with Fried speaking. As one person wrote at the Yahoo Chromadex Conversations Forum: "Frank, don't let go of the microphone next time."

Edited by bluemoon, 27 September 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[able]

 

I didn't realize that there was a problem with the patents, so I looked at those listed on the Chromadex site. The broadest claim in on patent 8,383,086, which claims: 1. A pharmaceutical composition comprising nicotinamide riboside in admixture with a carrier, wherein said composition is formulated for oral administration.

 

Its Achilles heel is that it doesn't prevent someone from selling NR without a carrier.

 

Patent 8,197,807 has an interesting claim: 1. A composition comprising isolated nicotinamide riboside in combination with one or more of tryptophan, nicotinic acid, or nicotinamide... 

 

The 8,383,086 seems quite solid because Elysium has filed an Inter Partes Review complaints before the USPTO's Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) that challenges the validity of Patents 8,383,086 and 8,197,807.

 

 

Was that the "abuse of patents" thing?   I haven't seen an explanation for that I could understand

 

What is the "basis" of the complaint by Elysium?

 

I've always thought Chromadex and partners have some overly broad patents, and that Elysium is trying to get them tossed out.

 

Chromadex seems to be concerned about losing some of the patent protections, so granted Elysium an exemption because they don't want the courts really looking into them as part of the case. 

 

Of course that is my limited, non-lawyer understanding of things.  

[MikeDC]

I liked Fried speech much more than Frank. Frank just give you the boring and uninspiring facts. While Fried communicated that NR is a big invention that will impact human aging for centuries to come. Frank never clicks with audiences. He just sounds fake. He is a big liability to CDXC shareholders.

[stefan_001]

 

 

I didn't realize that there was a problem with the patents, so I looked at those listed on the Chromadex site. The broadest claim in on patent 8,383,086, which claims: 1. A pharmaceutical composition comprising nicotinamide riboside in admixture with a carrier, wherein said composition is formulated for oral administration.

 

Its Achilles heel is that it doesn't prevent someone from selling NR without a carrier.

 

Patent 8,197,807 has an interesting claim: 1. A composition comprising isolated nicotinamide riboside in combination with one or more of tryptophan, nicotinic acid, or nicotinamide... 

 

The 8,383,086 seems quite solid because Elysium has filed an Inter Partes Review complaints before the USPTO's Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) that challenges the validity of Patents 8,383,086 and 8,197,807.

 

 

Was that the "abuse of patents" thing?   I haven't seen an explanation for that I could understand

 

What is the "basis" of the complaint by Elysium?

 

I've always thought Chromadex and partners have some overly broad patents, and that Elysium is trying to get them tossed out.

 

Chromadex seems to be concerned about losing some of the patent protections, so granted Elysium an exemption because they don't want the courts really looking into them as part of the case. 

 

Of course that is my limited, non-lawyer understanding of things.  

 

 

Chromadex has not granted Elysium any exceptions wrt IPR. EH filed a claim regarding the Royalty and Trademarking. That was about very small amounts, essentially Chromadex legal team said fine here is your money back and we rescind that agreement.

 

IPR fight is not between Chromadex and EH directly. Chromadex licenses the patents from Dartmourth College. So its beween Elysium and Darthmouth.In my view given that Dartmouth has an IP policy and active technology transfer program they have no choice to defend their IPR as good as possible. They are not amateurs, its an Ivy League institute that has filed IPR for many years.  They need to make the point to the outside world that when you attack Dartmouth IPR you will be met with the best to ensure parties think twice before gong after them. Similarly they need to this for the researchers they attract: when you work for Dartmouth your rights will be defended. Given they have hired one of the best, if not the best law firm in these matters it seems that's exactly what they will do. I would expect when that claim is rejected Darthmouth will go after Elysium Basis.
 

[MikeDC]

ChromaDex licensed NR to Elysium for use in medical applications limited to NR and Pterostilbene mixture. Elysium turned around and said this is abuse of patents. In stead of fighting, ChromaDex said "ok, we give you credit for the previous royalty payments and your complaint is void." Elysium didn't have a case, but ChromaDex didn't want to fight since the deal has been cancelled. The deal with Elysium should have never happened. Elysium wants to be a competitor to ChromaDex from day one in the pharmaceutical area. So ChromaDex should not help Elysium in anyway to develop their basis as a drug.
Frank is as stupid as hell. I don't know why the universities decided to license the patents to him. Maybe at that time, nobody knew how good NR turned out to be.

[bluemoon]

I liked Fried speech much more than Frank. Frank just give you the boring and uninspiring facts. While Fried communicated that NR is a big invention that will impact human aging for centuries to come. Frank never clicks with audiences. He just sounds fake. He is a big liability to CDXC shareholders.

 

From what I've listened to, Frank has sounded like a used car salesman who knows that despite having (probably) a very good product with NR, that Elysium has entered the market in full force and so has had to B.S. about when results will be released.  But Fried sounds like someone's annoyed uncle. ChromaDex needs to get someone who can clearly articulate the points they want to make. I've listened to Charles Brenner give a talk and as a scientist he was fine, but he also can't fit this roll for a wide audience.    

[MikeDC]

If you want to reduce Niagen sales. Let Brenner speak.
It is better for him to exist as a photo than putting him on video.
There is no real business people in the ChromaDex team. The company was on the verge of collapsing when Li Ka-Shing showed up. Li means business. Tru Niagen searches in Hong Kong is 100x the searches in US. ChromaDex will be fine even if they lose all patent protection. Because Li alone can sell Billions of Niagen in asia.

[stefan_001]

 

I liked Fried speech much more than Frank. Frank just give you the boring and uninspiring facts. While Fried communicated that NR is a big invention that will impact human aging for centuries to come. Frank never clicks with audiences. He just sounds fake. He is a big liability to CDXC shareholders.

 

From what I've listened to, Frank has sounded like a used car salesman who knows that despite having (probably) a very good product with NR, that Elysium has entered the market in full force and so has had to B.S. about when results will be released.  But Fried sounds like someone's annoyed uncle. ChromaDex needs to get someone who can clearly articulate the points they want to make. I've listened to Charles Brenner give a talk and as a scientist he was fine, but he also can't fit this roll for a wide audience.    

 

 

This is all silly talk. Neither is having the budget to do anything with full force. Neither EH or Chromadex have an interest to have the price collapse. The world is a big place with a potential 1B users of NR. At 25 dollar per can you have a potential 300B USD market. So certainly Chromadex has the potential to have >1B sales per year. The used car sales man Frank is going to be a billionaire. As for EH they have no IPR at all, so in this whole mess they have the weakest position but could still do well given the size of the market..

Edited by stefan_001, 27 September 2017 - 04:16 PM.