16 replies to this topic

[greenwich]

If all these anti-glycation, anti-AGE nootropics we're taking actually work, then our A1c scores should be going DOWN. Otherwise -- they DON'T work. Right? Let's fire up the BS meter. Start posting scores.

 

Anyone who has seen a decrease, shout it out, along with your regimen. Folks who haven't seen any decrease, but who took supplements regularly, also post what you did and how often you did it.

 

To post here, please have at least one HbA1c measurement.

 

I'm a type 1 diabetic. My last scores were:

• April - 7.2
• Nov - 7.0

 

I'm starting on a new program of nootropics and supplements. Will post my new score in a few months, along with what I took, and how often I took it.

[Matt]

My HbA1c was 4.8% last time I had it measured. Unfortunately that's my only measurement. I was also zinc deficient at the time of testing, so I wonder if it went down a little since. Not sure that it needs to be any lower anyway. 

 

I don't do anything special other than calorie restriction and take a few supplements. If you're interested, I'll share later (don't have time right now). 

 

[ceridwen]

My A1C is 5.4 but I have some really vicious spikes. Up to 12!

[ceridwen]

I am currently taking different supplements one by one to see if they have any effect. I shall stick with the ones that have most effect. So far I have tried white mulberry leaves, Metformin and Berberine. I asked if I could get funding for this but so far have heard nothing back. Can Metformin increase Alzheimer's symptoms? My ambition is to get my blood sugar into optimal range though whatever means necessary to stay at optimal range for 3-6 months and then see if this improves my SCI which is actually rapidly turning into MCI there is some urgency here and to report back on whether I think there is a supplement that reduces blood sugar that works better than the rest. I use a Librelink obviously that is expensive and obviously the supplements are too. Funding would be much appreciated

[pamojja]

Anyone who has seen a decrease, shout it out, along with your regimen.

 

Measured from 4.8 up to 6.2%. In average 5.1% during the last 9 years. But there is a problem with HbA1c, in that it depends for example on the clearing rate of RBC - usually about 3 months - and other factors. With a faster clearing rate or a high vitamin C intake it shows a lowered value.

 

 

 

Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).

We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.5 Similar levels could also be achieved by use of sustained-release AA tablets. This AA concentration would induce an approximate 0.7 depression in GHb. The GHb assay used in our study, affinity chromatography, is not affected by the presence of AA.3 Thus, unlike the case with Hb D Punjab, our results were not caused by analytical method artifact. More likely, the decreased GHb associated with AA supplementation appears related to an in vivo inhibition of glycation by the elevated plasma AA levels, and not a decrease in average plasma glucose.3 If this is true, the effect has implications not only for interpretation of GHb but also for human ageing, in which glycation of proteins plays a prominent role in age-related degenerative changes.

A misleading GHb lowering of the magnitude we observed can be clinically significant. Current recommendations for diabetics suggest that GHb be maintained at 7, a level that is associated with acceptable control and decreased risk of complications; when GHb exceeds 8, re-evaluation of treatment is necessary.6 Moreover, relatively small increases in average blood sugar (ie, GHb) can accompany adverse reproductive effects. A difference in mean maternal GHb of 0.8 was found for women giving birth to infants without or with congenital malformations.7 In either of these circumstances, an underestimation of GHb could obscure the need for more aggressive intervention.

Vitamin usage is common in New Zealand and after multivitamins, AA is the most often consumed supplement.8 Moreover, diabetics are encouraged to supplement antioxidants, including AA. Thus, it seems prudent for primary care health providers to inquire regarding the AA intake of patients, especially diabetics, when using GHb for diagnosis or treatment monitoring.

Cheryl A Krone
Senior Research Scientist
John TA Ely
Director
Applied Research Institute
PO Box 1925
Palmerston North

References:

• Copplestone S, Mackay R, Brennan S. Normal glycated haemoglobin in a patient with poorly controlled diabetes mellitus and haemoglobin D Punjab: implications for assessment of control. NZ Med J 2002;115(1157). URL: http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/
• Krone CA, Ely JTA. Vitamin C and glycohemoglobin revisited. Clin Chem 2001;47(1):148.
• Davie SJ, Gould BJ, Yudkin JS. Effect of vitamin C on glycosylation of proteins. Diabetes 1992;41(2):167–73.
• Paolisso G, Balbi V, Bolpe C, et al. Metabolic benefits deriving from chronic vitamin C supplementation in aged non-insulin dependent diabetics. J Am Coll Nutr 1995; 14(4):387–392.
• Lewin S. Vitamin C: Its Molecular Biology and Medical Potential. New York: Academic Press; 1976.
• Kenealey T, Braatvedt G, Scragg R. Screening for type 2 diabetes in non-pregnant adults in New Zealand: practice recommendations. NZ Med J 2002;115(1152):194–6.
• Rosenn B, Miodovnik M, Dignan PS, et al. Minor congenital malformation in infants of insulin-dependent diabetic women: association with poor glycemic control. Obstet Gynecol 1990;76:745–9.
• Allen T, Thomson WM, Emmerton LM, Poulton R. Nutritional supplement use among 26-year-olds. N Z Med J 2000;113(1113):274–7.

 

For example, if I calculate my mean BG from my meassured HbA1c, it should have been 99 mg/dl.

Actually measured it was 117! And from that meassured BG my calculated average HbA1c should have 5.7%.

 

 

My stack is described here.

 

I am currently taking different supplements one by one to see if they have any effect.

 

In my experience mainly diet helped me not to proceed from prediabetes. Supplements and drugs are a smaller contributing factor.

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 10 December 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[greenwich]

Measured from 4.8 up to 6.2%. In average 5.1% during the last 9 years. But there is a problem with HbA1c, in that it depends for example on the clearing rate of RBC - usually about 3 months - and other factors. With a faster clearing rate or a high vitamin C intake it shows a lowered value.

 

Cool. After pounding 15 grams vitamin C for a week and measuring 3.2%, won't I enjoy the look of confusion on my doctor's face? 

[pamojja]

Cool. After pounding 15 grams vitamin C for a week and measuring 3.2%, won't I enjoy the look of confusion on my doctor's face? 

 

Sorry for being the messenger of bad news. Vitamin C and glucose share the same insulin-receptor for cell-uptake, with preference of glucose. With your average blood glucose above 150 mg/dl I suspect you highly deficient in vitamin C. Which mega-doses probably wont override.

 

Have you ever heard of Richard K. Bernstein, a T1D who has overcome it with diet?

 

 

[Pizzarulzz]

Is 2 grams everyday is okay?

[kench]

My latest HbA1c is 6.0 % , up from 5.7 % two years ago.

Fasting glucose is usually ~95 .

I have been using carnosine supplements for 3 years, without apparent positive effect on HbA1c.

I am dropping off on the carnosine.

 

[RWhigham]

Your HbA1c depends strongly on the average lifespan of your red blood cells. If you are heterozygous or homozygous for thalassemia you will have low HbA1c because of high RBC turnover.  Dr Attia considers HbA1c too unreliable to use. (He may be influenced by his own thalassemia).Various supplements could conceivably affect RBC turnover.

Edited by RWhigham, 15 February 2019 - 06:01 PM.

[Kimer Med]

My HbA1c is now 4.0%. Fasting BG is 91.8.

 

In 2017, it was 5.9%.

 

So, yes, my regimen is working.

 

 

[Heisok]

AceNZ, I have seen your other posts about how you got rid of Diabetes. That is awesome. Not challenging your success.

 

One possible issue which might point to some of what RWhigham is indicating would be estimating average glucose levels based on an Hba1c of 4.0. That could be estimated at around 70 B.G. or a little less or more.

 

Does that raise a red flag for you with the fasting of 91.8? How low would you need to be throughout the rest of the day? Do they provide home testing equipment to you. What are post postprandial numbers?

 

I have controlled my high pre-diabetes numbers, and am currently at 5.1 Hba1c for the last 2 tests over 1 year, and fasting of 93 B.G. Post postprandial are almost always under 110 B.G.

 

 

[Kimer Med]

AceNZ, I have seen your other posts about how you got rid of Diabetes. That is awesome. Not challenging your success.

 

One possible issue which might point to some of what RWhigham is indicating would be estimating average glucose levels based on an Hba1c of 4.0. That could be estimated at around 70 B.G. or a little less or more.

 

Does that raise a red flag for you with the fasting of 91.8? How low would you need to be throughout the rest of the day? Do they provide home testing equipment to you. What are post postprandial numbers?

 

I have controlled my high pre-diabetes numbers, and am currently at 5.1 Hba1c for the last 2 tests over 1 year, and fasting of 93 B.G. Post postprandial are almost always under 110 B.G.

 

I have home testing equipment (meters) for BG and for blood ketones. I haven't measured my postprandial numbers in a few months; I'll do that again soon. Offhand, I doubt my average BG levels are as low as 70.

 

The difference between estimated and actual average BG may be due in part to my supplement regime, which does include some anti-AGE components (Carnosine was a change during the last 3 months; Benfotiamine and Lipoic Acid help, too, but both are more recent adds, and I've tried them both before with relatively little effect).

 

I also suspect that keeping my blood ketones at 0.5 or more has also had an impact on HbA1c. That and being sure to walk at least 30 minutes at least 5 days a week were two of the biggest changes for me. Walking has a *huge* effect on both BG and overall insulin resistance for me.

[Heisok]

Thanks AceNZ.

[ceridwen]

I have been able to reduce my HbA1C from 5.9 to 5.5.

[Kimer Med]

What are post postprandial numbers?

 

Here are my BG numbers for today (with NZ = US units):

 

9:00am fasting -- 5.1 = 92

1:15pm appx 1 hr after fruit snack (blueberries, dark chocolate, raw honey) & before walk -- 5.9 = 106

1:49pm after 30 min walk -- 5.1 = 92

5:51pm before dinner -- 4.8 = 86

6:40pm 30 min postprandial -- 4.8 = 86

7:12pm 60 min postprandial -- 4.7 = 85

 

Not a typo: no change 30 to 60 min after dinner.

 

I'm on the GAPS diet. Breakfast and dinner are always a bone broth based soup, although the specific ingredients vary a little every day. Tonight it was:

 

Chicken bone broth (made with lemon)

Chicken meat, poached

Red onions (sauteed)

Broccoli

Pumpkin

Carrot

Zucchini

Water spinach

Beet

Basil mayonnaise

Salt

 

Fabulous stuff, BTW.

 

With dinner, I also take most of my supplements. The ones oriented specifically toward BG / Insulin / HbA1c control include:

 

Trans-Resveratrol

Glucomannan

Carnosine

Biotin

B6

Chromium

Cinnamon

Melatonin (before bed)

Acetyl-L-Carnitine

[Heisok]

Great information AceNZ.