392 replies to this topic

[Hebbeh]

Area under the curve after subtracting baseline.

You might want to review your junior high math. NA has a higher AUC than NR.

[able]

If you want to compare AUC from that chart, you need to take into account that they used more than TWICE as much Mg of NR as they did NAM.

 

Molar weight NR chloride - 290 

 

Molar weight NAM - 122

 

Molar weight NA - 123

 

So, multiply the values for NAM and NA by 2.37 and you have a real world comparison.  As Hebbeh says, NA is MUCH higher than NR, when you remove their tricks.

 

Their use of moles (instead of Mg like other research ) in the Trammell study makes all the NAD+ metabolite comparison  charts they produced inaccurate or misleading.

 

 

Edited by able, 30 April 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[MikeDC]

MikeDC.

The chart on the right is the spike. The chart on the left shows the levels attained at different time points. Obviously the NA has the highest total levels.

The chart on the right is the AUC. Look at the label. The unit is pmol hour per mg.

Edited by MikeDC, 30 April 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[MikeDC]

If you want to compare AUC from that chart, you need to take into account that they used more than TWICE as much Mg of NR as they did NAM.

Molar weight NR chloride - 290

Molar weight NAM - 122

Molar weight NA - 123

So, multiply the values for NAM and NA by 2.37 and you have a real world comparison. As Hebbeh says, NA is MUCH higher than NR, when you remove their tricks.

Their use of moles (instead of Mg like other research ) in the Trammell study makes all the NAD+ metabolite comparison charts they produced inaccurate or misleading.

The dose of Niagen per pill is 125mg NR. It doesn’t include CL.
The dose response for all three of them are not straight lines. We know NR saturate over 1g in humans. So even if you double NAM, the flux may not change.

[stefan_001]

for completeness:

 

Molar weight NMN - 335.229

 

Molar weight NR - 255.25

 

Molar weight NR chloride - 290

 

Molar weight NAM - 122

 

Molar weight NA - 12

[stefan_001]

Are you guys arguing whether NAM is as effective as NR again? I thought that one was easy too agree, forget NAM. For me its about NR versus NMN or is it going to be NR + NMN.

Edited by stefan_001, 30 April 2018 - 05:59 PM.

[able]

Are you guys arguing whether NAM is as effective as NR again? I thought that one was easy too agree, forget NAM. For me its about NR versus NMN or is it going to be NR + NMN.

 

 

Agreed.  I do believe NR and NMN are better than NAM.

 

We are just responding to Mikedc spouting off about that chart supposedly proving something, and pointing out he is 100% wrong once  again.

[LawrenceW]

The real reason that MikeDC is spouting off again is:

 

https://www.marketwa...ting/stock/cdxc

 

Chromadex is down 10% this morning.

[OP2040]

NMN at 200mg has had a very obvious positive effect for me, whereas 50mg did nothing.  To put this in context, I've experimented with many supplements over the last 5 years, and I've never had any experiences, positive or negative.  In full disclosure, I have tried NR in the past, but it was at the recommended dose, so I can't say what it would do at a higher dose.  To others that may be experimenting, if you can afford it, definitely up that dose.

 

I know this isn't much to go on.  Greater mental clarity, energy and improved sense of well-being.  I'm confident that I will see cardio improvement given my subjective symptoms, but I have no data to provide yet.  This is the first time I've ever felt the need to recommend something to my family and friends, not wanting them to miss out, though I suspect they would balk at the price anyway.

 

Of course, nothing can ever be simple so now I'm worried about tolerance, or what will happen if I stop taking it. Hopefully, if it is truly anti-aging, then whatever improvements are made would not disappear over night. 

Edited by OP2040, 01 May 2018 - 02:45 PM.

[OP2040]

Another reason I've chosen to focus on NMN is that his is what David Sinclair takes and gives t o his family, NOT just what he promotes.  So if one of the most knowledgeable people in the world has put is money, his body and his loved ones where his mouth is, then that means a lot.  This is why I never quite bought into the whole TA-65, etc.  I never saw that kind of confidence by anyone involved in that venture, and to this day it's unclear whether they even bothered to use their own product.

[MikeDC]

NMN at 200mg has had a very obvious positive effect for me, whereas 50mg did nothing. To put this in context, I've experimented with many supplements over the last 5 years, and I've never had any experiences, positive or negative. In full disclosure, I have tried NR in the past, but it was at the recommended dose, so I can't say what it would do at a higher dose. To others that may be experimenting, if you can afford it, definitely up that dose.

I know this isn't much to go on. Greater mental clarity, energy and improved sense of well-being. I'm confident that I will see cardio improvement given my subjective symptoms, but I have no data to provide yet. This is the first time I've ever felt the need to recommend something to my family and friends, not wanting them to miss out, though I suspect they would balk at the price anyway.

Of course, nothing can ever be simple so now I'm worried about tolerance, or what will happen if I stop taking it. Hopefully, if it is truly anti-aging, then whatever improvements are made would not disappear over night.

It is not difficult to under why Sinclair takes NMN since he intends to make money out of it. In an article I read before, the author said two thirds of scientists attending a conference are taking Niagen. None takes NMN.

[LawrenceW]

It is not difficult to under why Sinclair takes NMN since he intends to make money out of it. In an article I read before, the author said two thirds of scientists attending a conference are taking Niagen. None takes NMN.

 

 

Congratulations Mike. Chromadex is up 2% this morning. You are doing a great job of pumping out the Chromadex mantra of NR is great and anything else sucks. Sounds like the conference was yet another NR echo chamber sponsored by Chromadex.

[MikeDC]

Congratulations Mike. Chromadex is up 2% this morning. You are doing a great job of pumping out the Chromadex mantra of NR is great and anything else sucks. Sounds like the conference was yet another NR echo chamber sponsored by Chromadex.

At least right now, NR is by far the best anti aging supplement. It is your choice not to believe it. When the next great thing comes along, I will enforce it too.

[John250]

I own a nutrition store and one of the associates with TruNiagen just so happens to live in my area. He stopped by and we talked for about an hour. Very smart guy. He helped in the development of PeptoPro. He discussed the human studies with NR and how much testing/research has to go into it to make the legal claims they do that other companies cannot. We seemed to conclude that 500mg would more than likely be the best dose but the RDA for now is lower until they conclude the research. I’m starting with 2 caps(250mg) first thing in the morning with all my other supplements that require being taken on an empty stomach. in a few weeks I’ll increase to another dose of 250 and stick with that long term and see how I respond.

[Captain Obvious]

At least right now, NR is by far the best anti aging supplement. It is your choice not to believe it. When the next great thing comes along, I will enforce it too.

 

Based on what clinical data? How many people have been "anti-aged" by NR?

[able]

NMN at 200mg has had a very obvious positive effect for me, whereas 50mg did nothing.  To put this in context, I've experimented with many supplements over the last 5 years, and I've never had any experiences, positive or negative.  In full disclosure, I have tried NR in the past, but it was at the recommended dose, so I can't say what it would do at a higher dose.  To others that may be experimenting, if you can afford it, definitely up that dose.

 

I know this isn't much to go on.  Greater mental clarity, energy and improved sense of well-being.  I'm confident that I will see cardio improvement given my subjective symptoms, but I have no data to provide yet.  This is the first time I've ever felt the need to recommend something to my family and friends, not wanting them to miss out, though I suspect they would balk at the price anyway.

 

Of course, nothing can ever be simple so now I'm worried about tolerance, or what will happen if I stop taking it. Hopefully, if it is truly anti-aging, then whatever improvements are made would not disappear over night. 

 

That is what so many people report with NR and NMN.   

 

Good advice about increasing the dosage imo.  It is silly they sell a 50 mg capsule.   

 

I'd bet the reviews on Amazon for NR that say they don't notice anything are mostly taking the 125-250 mg recommended, not the higher dosages that most here take.

 

It's unfortunate they have to recommend lower dosages for legal reasons - really hurts the reputation of the product.

[MikeDC]

The full ling liu paper.

 

Comparing IV and Oral, the difference in NAD+ increase in organs other than liver is very significant. Better delivery method for NAD+ precursors are needed.

All NAD+ precursors are not very effective at generating NAD+ in muscles from oral administration. This means NAM is not a good NAD+ precursor for muscles.

oral NR is better than oral NMN in muscles. IV NR is significantly better than NMN in muscles. 

 

Circulating NMN is almost none from Oral NMN, Oral NR, IV NMN, and IV NR.

Circulating NR is significantly higher even with Oral NMN and IV NMN. This means our body utilize NR as NAD+ precursor even without NR supplementation.

 

 

https://sci-hub.tw/h...met.2018.03.018

 

 

Attached Files

•  NR-NMN-Ling_liu.GIF   78.64KB   0 downloads
•  ling_liu_2.GIF   72.34KB   0 downloads
•  ling_liu_3.GIF   100.23KB   0 downloads

Edited by MikeDC, 02 May 2018 - 01:10 PM.

[tunt01]

Thanks MikeDC.  Interesting.  Looks like oral is inefficient period.  I guess we know why NR and all forms of niacin are so effective against fatty liver or maybe even liver cancer.

 

Maybe time to take a closer look at muscle NAMPT activators.

[able]

Thanks MikeDC.  Interesting.  Looks like oral is inefficient period.  I guess we know why NR and all forms of niacin are so effective against fatty liver or maybe even liver cancer.

 

Maybe time to take a closer look at muscle NAMPT activators.

 

 

or, sublingual delivery, which is what I do and find much more effective in my n=1 experiments.

[MikeDC]

Thanks MikeDC. Interesting. Looks like oral is inefficient period. I guess we know why NR and all forms of niacin are so effective against fatty liver or maybe even liver cancer.

Maybe time to take a closer look at muscle NAMPT activators.

We also need to be careful taking the results of this study at face value. People getting good results in brains with better sleep they don’t get with other B3s. Even though the study shows NR and NMN don’t penetrate the blood brain barrier. Many people also reported younger skins that they don’t get from other vitamin B3.
My guess a better delivery method will make NR much more effective than now.

[MikeDC]

I own a nutrition store and one of the associates with TruNiagen just so happens to live in my area. He stopped by and we talked for about an hour. Very smart guy. He helped in the development of PeptoPro. He discussed the human studies with NR and how much testing/research has to go into it to make the legal claims they do that other companies cannot. We seemed to conclude that 500mg would more than likely be the best dose but the RDA for now is lower until they conclude the research. I’m starting with 2 caps(250mg) first thing in the morning with all my other supplements that require being taken on an empty stomach. in a few weeks I’ll increase to another dose of 250 and stick with that long term and see how I respond.

The next time you talk to the Tru Niagen guy, ask him to develop sublingual forms of Tru Niagen. They may also develop liposome assisted version also.

[John250]

So technically opening ia few capsules of Tru Niagen NR and dumping the powder under your tongue holding up there for a few minutes then swallowing could yield a much greater absorption?

[John250]

It’s really too bad there is not a blood test for this. Almost everything else you can get blood work done to figure out the best method which is how I perfected my hormone replacement therapy. Trial and error with different delivery mechanism’s is almost pointless with NR Until there is an actual blood, urine etc. test they can show values.

I wonder if it would be worth trying a trans dermal with it with maybe using DMSO or maybe

Ethyl Alcohol
Dimethyl Isosorbide
Ethoxidiglycol
Triethanolamine

But then again we don’t know how fragile it is. If it’s recommended on an empty stomach more than likely it’s fragile so who knows what type of carrier could damage it or time being in a solution, etc. maybe one could look at a similar compound with a similar structure that’s been studied more and assess it from that?

Edited by John250, 02 May 2018 - 10:07 PM.

[LawrenceW]

At least right now, NR is by far the best anti aging supplement. It is your choice not to believe it. When the next great thing comes along, I will enforce it too.

 

 

Great news for you MikeDC.  The next great thing is already coming along! It's called NMN. One of these days you will actually try some and then you will finally understand why the people that take NMN are so excited about it.

[MikeDC]

So technically opening ia few capsules of Tru Niagen NR and dumping the powder under your tongue holding up there for a few minutes then swallowing could yield a much greater absorption?

Yes. NR absorbed intact is much more powerful than degraded into NAM. The surprising benefits of NR may be from 10% of NR absorbed intact. The rest is the same as NAM.

[John250]

Maybe taking it with bioperiene may help absorption as well?

Or this may be extreme for some but what if the method of administration is rectally? The bioavailability of many drugs taken in suppository form is greatly increased.

Edited by John250, 03 May 2018 - 04:43 AM.

[able]

I don't understand the reluctance about sublingual.  I don't find it difficult at all.  

 

The NR powder from revgenetics and NMN powder from alivebynature both work great.

 

I also don't understand why Chromadex hasn't done something like those yet.  

 

Except maybe that would be admitting they've been selling something that is not really ideal?

[stefan_001]

NMN at 200mg has had a very obvious positive effect for me, whereas 50mg did nothing.  To put this in context, I've experimented with many supplements over the last 5 years, and I've never had any experiences, positive or negative.  In full disclosure, I have tried NR in the past, but it was at the recommended dose, so I can't say what it would do at a higher dose.  To others that may be experimenting, if you can afford it, definitely up that dose.

 

I know this isn't much to go on.  Greater mental clarity, energy and improved sense of well-being.  I'm confident that I will see cardio improvement given my subjective symptoms, but I have no data to provide yet.  This is the first time I've ever felt the need to recommend something to my family and friends, not wanting them to miss out, though I suspect they would balk at the price anyway.

 

Of course, nothing can ever be simple so now I'm worried about tolerance, or what will happen if I stop taking it. Hopefully, if it is truly anti-aging, then whatever improvements are made would not disappear over night. 

 

May I ask which brand you use?
 

[OP2040]

May I ask which brand you use?
 

 

Check out the link below for details.  I like this brand because they are really trying to establish trust, and it seems they really want the market share.  In other words, they stand behind their product.  Reviews are excellent, and I think the poster Lawrence takes this brand as well.  As far as I'm concerned, the more people on board both NMN and NR the better.  Competition will keep prices low and companies honest.

 

To me there is no mistaking the strong effect it provides.  I would also like to report a lower resting pulse rate, probably as good as that measure can get, and probably lower blood pressure too since the two track together for me.  I'm confident it's because of the NMN because I haven't added anything else to my routine.  I'm in no way a placebo effect kind of person, I've taken many supplements that I strongly believe in, with no discernible effect.

 

https://www.amazon.c...words=nmn&psc=1

 

 

[tunt01]

Heilbronn ran a study that ended in July 2016, put out a press release in Dec. 2016 but has not yet published peer reviewed paper on it.  The trial was 120 older adult humans and had 40-90% increases in NAD+ blood levels from the NR.  Dosing was 250 mg of NR or double the dose (w/ pterostilbene).